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12:58 AM
^Can't tell if datahoarding or terrorist propoganda
 
1:29 AM
hero of one side is a terrorist of another
also cache hoards memory
 
1:44 AM
:) /cc @JerryCoffin
 
 
1 hour later…
2:46 AM
Anybody ever use Qt3D ? Specifically aspects, and collision detection ?
 
No, but I'd be interested if you shared some experiences
I've had good experiences with PhysX as a kid (2008?)
 
 
5 hours later…
7:23 AM
WTH is wrong with MacOS X? Why does it have static_casert(a,b) defined as a macro?
 
8:01 AM
LEWG allocated plenty of time to discuss merging the Ranges TS during the next meeting, it's cool :o
They're apparently going to discuss both the merge, the deep integration paper, the contiguous iterators one and the one for better & safer begin and end functions
I almost want to believe into C++30 Ranges now *-*
+ the one to rangify the uninitialized memory algorithms
 
8:22 AM
The young Americans trying to stop Ireland from voting Yes to abortion ... not okay for mother to decide what to do with their own body but it's okay to bomb Syria and kill children that way. Speaking of 'intelligence'. I wish there is a heavy tax on inefficiency and stupidity.
 
later-life abortion is more ethic, wait until the foetus is circa 5~55yo
 
nwp
@Morwenn That was probably sarcastic, but I can see christians making that argument.
 
@TelKitty oh right, I forgot about that :D
 
8:38 AM
@Morwenn I have trouble with the discoverability of features in the library.
This is, I guess, what happens if the core features don't exist as either types or functions (discoverable/documented) but as ways in which to compose things (e.g. what is lazy, when is currying built-in, how to extend/pass your own stuff etc. etc.)
At this rate, Niebler will have to author a book on it, focusing on recipes, just to get adoption
 
it will be better once the guys from cppreference start actively working on it x)
It was easier to follow the ideas when Niebler was writing blog posts with examples about the development and thought process
That's where I understood the idea of proxy iterators and was later able to use it in my own library to solve problems
I believe that people will start writing their own blog posts once the feature is accepted, which will ease the discoverability
 
8:53 AM
@Morwenn cppreference is a cpp reference
The doxygen is what a reference looks like.
 
@sehe I don't get the point you're trying to make
 
A reference doesn't alleviate the thing I'm missing (it will catalog the types and functions provided).
 
as I was saying you'll need people to write good blog posts v0v
 
We do. My hope is not on cppreference here. Of course, cppreference is still indispensible.
Reminds me. Where do I donate there. They're too modest.
There. Donating. Huh? Only bitcoins or geeky stuff. And the bitcoins have been disabled
 
ask for their direct bank account numbers, or even just for their address and send cake :D
 
nwp
9:07 AM
I like cppreference significantly less since I tried to contribute. They pretend to let you do changes, add stuff to the discussion page and so on just like wikipedia, but when you reload it's gone.
Hell-banning the general public is really not nice.
 
that's why I only fix tidbits and typos (also because I don't have anything big to contribute)
oh lol, that Fornux guy even spammed the Qt mailing list >.>
is this cancer
 
9:42 AM
1>CUDACOMPILE : nvcc error : 'cudafe++' died with status 0xC0000005 (ACCESS_VIOLATION)
^ also cancer
 
10:00 AM
aaaaaaw, another cultural USA vs. rest of the world debate in the future proposals forums :3
Sunday-Monday week vs. ISO Monday-Sunday week
 
10:14 AM
I say we have binary week: day 0 & day 1
only work on no 0 days
 
toggle work every day 0 would be better IMO
 
Germans killed csv by letting their comma delimit numbers.
 
nwp
They just use cemicolon separated values instead which is widely supported.
 
@Mikhail we've got the same in French v0v
 
Quite a few programs allow you to specify delimit character.
 
Ven
10:21 AM
oh, @sehe is alive
 
yeah, he often is
 
I wonder hibernation is just another way of sleeping through the night - when a night can last multiple days because high latitude
 
Fuck, my smartphone battery is draining for no apparent reason >.>
 
@Morwenn he has never died so I believe :x
 
@TelKitty No. Hibernation is not just a long sleep
 
10:26 AM
but correlates with lacking of sunlight
 
@Mikhail Most of Europe does that, maybe most of the world even. It's kinda the exception that English speakers don't use comma for decimal
 
looks like we didn't invade Englad enough
time to fix things
 
10:45 AM
Sit down before you fall down
 
11:14 AM
@Mikhail CSV has many issues
 
@Morwenn alternating between hibernation and aestivation
 
11:55 AM
@Mgetz you mean besides not being formally defined?
 
@Morwenn that too
 
General purpose text representations have many issues.
They, unsurprisingly, are common to basically all variations.
 
how to embed quotes in a string is a problem common to many formats :p
 
escape character?
 
but then you need to escape the escape character x)
let's not mention C++ raw strings
 
nwp
12:01 PM
"Find a reasonably short string that is not a substring of some other string quickly" sounds like a classic CS problem that people thought would never have a practical use.
 
// Update the emo turd cache
EmoTurdCache = EmoLitterInternetWithTurds();
 
nwp
@Mgetz Why does the author consider it reasonable to paste confidential information into a google spreadsheet?
 
It's so gratuitous I'm crying silently while trying not to laugh at work
 
nwp
In the good ol days of firewalls people refused applications that don't do internet stuff such as excel internet access.
 
12:13 PM
@nwp except now excel wants to update itself (for some odd reason) so you can't deny it internet access if you want to avoid vulnerabilities...
 
nwp
I thought windows update had updates for microsoft applications such as office.
 
at work my office applications often tell me they need to update
after that update completes (during which I cannot use any of them) I see no perceivable difference
then again I'm far from a power user of office apps
 
@ratchetfreak that's a positive thing - updates often break my other apps
 
then again that may be because I don't reboot my work laptop that often
but I'd be happy if my outlook can remain properly connected (or even successfully reconnect) consistently to the exchange server after a wake from sleep
 
@nwp no idea
 
12:22 PM
I want implicit lifetimes to be a real thing yet :o
 
@Morwenn how to encode non-native characters, how to encode binary, how to escape everything that interferes with the format (PCDATA/CDATA, anyone!?!?!?), what to strongly type, what are the admissable domain ranges, it all sucks. Seriously, binary seems underrated. Text "solves" so many interoperability issues at a cost
 
The cost of being able to modify config files by hand is often worth it :p
 
12:38 PM
with binary prefixing with length is very natural (and usually painless unless you underestimated the max length...)
 
What is the simplest way to insert a new element at the correct way in a sorted vector?
I end up doing something with indexes and feel there should be a better way of doing this.
 
std::lower_bound + std::vector::insert at the returned iterator
 
but if you are doing multiple elements you may be better off doing a std::merge (sort the new elements first) into a new vector
 
I ended up with this: pastebin.com/GWwjSTS6
I was not aware of std::lower_bound
 
12:55 PM
@Morwenn Oh yeah. But, say, XML and JSON are only marginally used for config. I wager CSV never is. And then there are evil contraptions like YAML, INI, Info, and probably a whole slew worse
@Nils derp - it's the building block for anything O(log n)
 
@sehe but I always to push use JSON (because there are efficient parsers everywhere) :o
I'm just a bit sad it doesn't natively handles ISO datetimes
 
@Morwenn more and more I'm leaning into the sqllite camp
 
Yeah. Of course you use the common denominator. Still, everything is equally fraught with the same caveats. And JSON adds a whole boatload of unnecessary caveats (seriot.ch/parsing_json.php)
@Mgetz Those things don't even remote address the same solution spaces
 
@Mgetz I mostly use SQLite for data that is only supposed to be read and written by the application
 
@Morwenn oh agreed, it's a horrible solution for portability
 
1:00 PM
Or Spatialite because we actually needed to store geometric types
@sehe Among those, the last of a standardized way to write comments is often one of my problems when I want user-readable files
 
@Mgetz actually. For portability it's great. Of the code, though. Not of the data.
But I call that interoperability
 
@sehe actually insofar as the DB is not encrypted any application that knows the schema can read it
 
Encryption is not part of the open source package anyways
@Mgetz Missed the fact that any application that knows the format can read it, no need to know a schema
 
schema is encoded in the meta data
but you can add encryption to it if you take care of the IO it needs
 
Where the hell am I
 
1:11 PM
@sehe just curious, but which C++ feature to maybe come do you really expect? :p
 
As in "expect to happen" or "await eagerly"?
 
the ones you wish you had
and are somewhat in the committee pipeline
 
Ven
you think they are
 
Mmm lemme think. I'd love a good range. And concepts. Modules would be swell for the ecosystem, but personally I don't crave it much. (The whole OS distro eco system is well adjusted and conditioned to the C/C++ compilation model).
 
I share the same view when it comes to modules :/
 
1:14 PM
Oh. The networking TS is gonna happen and bring a much more robust executor model. Finally, the Java guys won't have the upper hand there.
 
@sehe But it's blocked by the executors TS
 
"Hierarchical Data Structures and Related Concepts for the C++ Standard Library" interests me a lot, but sadly the proposals I've seen are a bit old-hat.
I'd love to have "Linq-to-object" capabilities (combine with Ranges!) and have it just work with minimal reflection requirements (structured bindings should go a long way, I think)
 
@sehe You'd need to get that one into Boost first and gather usage before they'd consider it again :/
I liked it though
 
Ven
b-b-but META CLASSES doe
 
@Morwenn Agreed
 
1:18 PM
I don't remember any attempt at bringing it to Boost
@sehe now you're def out of the committee pipeline x)
 
I was merely explaining why I'm interested in a standardized conceptified "hierarchical data structures" thing. Basically the stuff that makes Spirit (automatic attribute compat) and things like Boostache
@Ven Herp supper
 
Ven
superb, obviously
 
(I still don't watch talks)
 
It's just a link
Nobody watches talks. Right :)
 
Nobody? I generally feel like I'm the only one :p
 
1:25 PM
@Morwenn coroutines, executors, metaclasses
 
@Morwenn I can sometimes watch a talk. But it takes me at least 5x times the nominal length of the recording and also I fall asleep/loose interest all the freaking time
@Mgetz Mmm. Yeah. Language level coros are very very multi-applicable. I forgot about that proposal
 
I don't remember having ever been able to last 5 minutes before closing the tab ^^'
but muh stackful coros D:
 
@sehe given what I've seen in C# they are super powerful. I'm expecting them to be extremely abused
 
I've been able to sit through some if they are interesting, though I do often end up looking at other tabs while the guy it prattling on in the background
 
I'm generally waiting for the proposals that could have a direct impact on cpp-sort, which is not that surprising x)
 
1:28 PM
@Morwenn so if you wanted to implement a lazy sort coros would make sense
you could use co_yield to return the next value
 
@Mgetz I've yet to implement (steal) the parallel ones :(
 
@Morwenn Only if I was hoping to pick up very specific "daderkennis" (perpetrator's knowledge?) - e.g. Chris Kohlhoff on ASIO internals
@Mgetz yup
@Mgetz have you thought this through?
 
@sehe In the "My allergies are making me extremely out of it and I probably need another cup of tea" way... yes
@Morwenn go read the executors proposal... you could sort everything on the GPU
 
Lazy sort generally involves make a heap out of the whole collection then get every element via a O(log n) operation, which isn't great
@Mgetz I only need to steal the right algorithms x)
 
@Morwenn Depends on other factors, so there are cases where it might be worthwhile anyway
 
1:37 PM
I doubt I can hide all the interesting special cases behind that sweet generic interface :/
Mutable sorters would have helped to pass more parameters while keeping the generic callable interface but it utterly destroyed compile times on GCC and yield ICEs I could never solve on Clang x)
 
@Morwenn were you ever able to reduce them to test cases and submit to LLVM?
 
@Mgetz I would still be trying to reduce the testcase today (or to compile Clang)
 
1:54 PM
the results are still on Travis if you ever want to have fun :)
 
2:14 PM
@Morwenn I really don't like ranking that "lazy sort". I mean. It's better for incremental sort, but make_heap is still O(n) upfront
 
@sehe yup, that's exactly why range-v3 doesn't provide a sorted_view
also because they don't want to allocate O(n) data for a view
 
For a view, it even adds O(n) storage complexity
@Morwenn you got it first
 
barely :p
 
 
1 hour later…
3:31 PM
I like all the proposals that strive to make some parts of the core of C++ actually more zero-overhead than they are today
 
Sam
hey
 
hey
 
Sam
Hows it going :)
 
pretty fine as far as I'm concerned :p
 
Sam
Glad to hear
No questions, just thought I should get involved in this room a bit as my attention in work has been turned to learn and maintain a c++ simulation model
 
3:45 PM
to be honest this room is a bit dead these days, even though a few old people are still in its vicinity
 
Sam
Seems a fair few people in the background
Compared to the R Public room at least.
 
oh right, but this used to be SO's most active and most hated chatroom ^.^
you can still get classified information about the C++ standard committee activity from time to time though
 
Sam
haha why most hated :p
 
they're meeting in the first days of June and you can find some juicy speculations
@Sam let's say that drama was the norm, and political correctness was not among the ways of our people xD
 
Sam
Meh, I'm still coming to terms with a pointer.
 
3:49 PM
samrt pointers best pointers :p
 
Sam
What kind of structure is this?
Subject::Subject(DoublePtrConst input){}
 
(need to leave for now, sorry)
 
Sam
cya
 
4:09 PM
@Sam no idea needs more context
 
though in general that's a constructor definition as you would put it outside the class definition
 
4:36 PM
Code crashes compiler in debug mode but not in release. Do I still need to debug?
 
@Morwenn I'm not that old. Oh wait, you said people, not subhumans...
@Mikhail If it's crashing the compiler, then the compiler maintainers need to debug.
 
4:55 PM
@Mikhail reduce to test case and submit as bug
 
5:18 PM
@JerryCoffin Nvidia doesn't give a shit. And I spent like three hours upgrading my code to msvc 2017. Im in a hostile work environment where I need to cover my ass for every hour I work. This going to be hard to explain to somebody who doesn't code or recognize the name "msvc".
 
What is hard about asserting that the tools provided by a vendor have a flaw that is delaying progress? Most complaints about "non-coders" have more to do about poor communication skills on the part of the "coder" in my experience
Your boss doesn't need to recognize the name msvc to understand that there is a bug in a tool. In fact their knuckleheadedness can come in use to bash NVidia reps for help (if they have that access)
 
5:47 PM
 
6:02 PM
@crasic He doens't know what a compiler is, and I'm the only person who codes.
 
6:22 PM
@Mikhail Time for a new job. You deserve to be treated decently.
 
@Mikhail Socials skills are a learned skill, being able to explain yourself and why you need to do what you did is part of the job
 
@crasic Its more like being in grad school you're exploitable, so no amount of social skills will get you out of that position. I think the guy I work for knows I'll do both to personal expense. Cover my ass is mostly sending emails, so that if I get fired he looks bad. Which is pretty petty.
 
Sounds like a whole load of complaining about the other guy.
Emails w.r.t all decisions in a contract or gig situation isn't petty, its normal
@JerryCoffin Engineers are such snow-flakes, deal with one nontechnical manager and its "not being treated decently", technical skills doesn't mean the world owes you something
 
6:39 PM
@crasic so being expected to be treated like a human is an unreasonable expectation?
 
@crasic Sorry, but: "I have to cover my ass..." goes well beyond: "deal with one nontechnical manager".
 
Sending emails covering technical decisions to stake holders, to a grad student sounds like CYA, but this is normal practice , no?
 
@crasic not always, in many cases this is the managers job. Most managers see their job as enabling their employees to be the most productive.
 
@Mgetz I do not think so for contractor/gig situation, you are your own manager, the "manager" is the customer contact and their role is adversarial
 
@crasic Grad student isn't gig/contractor. It's a professor trying to make themselves look good
 
6:43 PM
I'm pretty sure I remember that this is a side gig, not grad work
 
I do both, but the side gig is pretty easy because the customers are interested in getting a product/working system
 
@crasic That depends on the sort of technical decisions you're talking about. When I was doing consulting, I communicated with my customers about things that would affect them (mostly features and schedules). As a rule, I didn't discuss things like compiler bugs with them though.
 
I would if it affected the schedule or expected output
I stand by my point though, engineers will continue to be sidelined and marginalized when they won't aknowledge that communicating and dealing with non-technical stake holders is a necessary skill to be a successful engineer and that it is a two-sided road
knowing what a compiler is good and all, but if you refuse to work with anyone that doesn't know that, or dismiss them for it, then you will always feel persecuted and not treated well at work
 
@crasic nobody said that
 
@Mgetz The only justification I heard for why it was impossible to communicate the delay to the manager is that "they don't know what MSVC or a compiler is"
that tells me, they didn't try to communicate and gave up because of the language barrier and resorted to resentful CYA behavior
 
6:48 PM
@crasic What it told me is there has already been an antagonistic relationship in place for awhile and that management likely doesn't care. Having been in that situation I agree with @JerryCoffin... it's time to get a new job
 
Sure, if you are skilled enough and in-demand, but for the rest of us, it's better to learn to resolve your problems in a productive manner, I haven't heard anything that shows a bad faith relationship. Antagonistic is one thing, but you don't walk away until it crosses to bad faith
 
@crasic Antagonistic is bad faith... there is no difference
 
Bullshit
 
the relationship has to already have gone into bad faith for them to be antagonizing
 
Or they could be responding to perceived bad faith from you
Bad faith is actively undermining
 
6:52 PM
@crasic Then they shouldn't be a manager, a manager's job is to get the best performance out of their people. Antagonizing them or continuing bad faith is the wrong way to do that.
 
Sure, perhaps both people are unsuited for their current role?
But I agree with your premise, there is a line where the manager is not doing their job or doing it poorly by not getting the best performance out of their people
 
@crasic That's possible but the responsibility always falls to the person in power in that case, they should never have put the subordinate in a role they were unsuited, unprepared for, or unable to grow into. That is deliberately setting someone up to fail.
 
unfortunately there is a blurring in most organizations between project manager and product manager, and they have very different incentives
 
@crasic Product owners shouldn't be the managers of the team
 
Plus at the end of the day we have a one sided view into the conflict
 
6:58 PM
they have perverse incentives that hurt organizations
 
@Mgetz Agreed, but this is rarely the case, even in well-run orgs there are people wearing both hats
I respond to complaints about managers the same way I respond to a friend who talks about their "crazy exes" - my first question is what did you do to make them crazy
because if the answer is nothing, then there is no hope for growth, improvement, or resolution of the situation
but more often than not, its just someone venting while exxagerating
 
nwp
You must be a ton of fun to hang around with.
 
Wow guys.
 
I'm just telling it like it is
 
Well telling it like it is is about to get you suspended so...
 
nwp
7:05 PM
Nothing but the truth. It's unfortunate other people can't handle it :P
 
Suspended for what, exactly?
 
For that
 
nwp
@crasic You are probably just trolling but just in case you are not: Letting people vent tends to make them feel better and be more rational afterwards. Telling them that they are wrong in that situation tends to have the opposite effect. While it may seem dishonest to let them unjustly blame some other person for their failures it is advantageous to do so in order to make them productive again.
 
7:27 PM
@nwp What was the edit?
 
nwp
I essentially wrote that this example is UB backed with some SO posts and possibly this proposal as well as the placement new code to fix it.
 
on that page? there doesn't seem to be anything in the revision history
 
nwp
Exactly that is the problem.
 
That...should not have happened.
 
nwp
7:36 PM
Click "Discussion", enter a reasonably well phrased explanation, click "Save Page", gone is your contribution.
It might be caused by me not having an account in case you want to reproduce. It says "Warning: You are not logged in. Your IP address will be recorded in this page's edit history." which seemed reasonable to me.
 
if you are not logged in, there's a captcha
 
nwp
I forgot if I saw a captcha.
 
@nwp There is no bad faith from me, but while venting may be appropriate, there is a difference between ego stroking and letting someone vent. To validate a victim complex is counterproductive
@SterlingArcher That was petty and unnecessary, on both our parts
 
You assume I took action against you
I merely watched the flags grow
 
You prevent me from rectifying a mistake by apologizing to a user for a defensive comment when it happens, and diminish the validity of your enforcement over something that can be settled inter-personally.
Well, you were the canary, if not then I'm sorry
 
7:44 PM
It's not an image, might have been a bit inconspicuous. It's something like "What is displayed by std::cout << 'y' << "nc";"
 
@T.C. I'm evil enough to put compiler poisons in there so if someone tries running it or similar it would cause some sort of crash or compiler hang
nice way to stop silly bots that try to run it and find the answer
 
nwp
I'm also confused why there is no code-formatting thing.
 
code-formatting thing?
 
nwp
@T.C. I tried to re-post, but I got "User T. Canens (talk) deleted this page after you started editing with reason: Author request Please confirm that you really want to recreate this page.". Do I just create it again or leave it be?
 
just create is fine
I just removed my test edit
 
nwp
7:57 PM
That is the editing thingy I mean. It doesn't have a code tag ... thingy. Whatever that is called.
 
Ah, yes, there's no built-in code tag thing, blame MediaWiki
 
@T.C. I do, and it's a major pain, we considered using media wiki for hosting our coding standards and chose not to for that reason (among many many others)
 
It's spelled {{c|1=your code here}}. 1= is optional if your code doesn't contain a = sign. Pipes need to be escaped with {{!}}
 
nwp
SO-style 4 spaces renders as code in the preview.
I posted it, saved the page, solved the captcha, got sent back to the discussion page which is empty.
 
hmm...are you doing http or https?
 
nwp
8:03 PM
https
 
weird, I just tested it and had no problem landing an edit
can you try a small test edit and see if that goes through?
 
nwp
This is the text I tried to put in. Maybe it doesn't like external links or something.
 
well, it's formatted wrong but I had no problem putting it in while logged out: en.cppreference.com/mwiki/index.php?title=Talk:cpp/memory/c/…
 
nwp
I tried to change the page to just "Test" as the text, but it had no effect. I'm seeing your test text, not mine.
 
what browser are you using?
 
nwp
8:11 PM
Firefox 55.0b2 (64-bit)
uBlock origin blocked access to google-analytics.com.
 
@nwp release is 60, why are you 5 versions back?
 
any non-stock settings/extensions/etc.? the only thing I can currently think of is something interfering with the captcha
 
nwp
@Mgetz Because that's what debian testing gives me.
 
@nwp check your updates packages.debian.org/sid/firefox
looks like debian testing is still on iceweasel packages.debian.org/testing/web/iceweasel
but that's the ESR and is basically not supported for anything
 
nwp
@Mgetz I have testing, not sid.
 
8:22 PM
@nwp then you should have 52.0.8 ESR in the form of Iceweasel
 
nwp
It doesn't show it on that page, but it does have a package "firefox" which is 55.0.
 
@nwp the only firefox for debian is ESR unless you're using a downloaded deb in which case you should update from official to latest
apt-get update
apt-get install -t unstable firefox
 
hmm, if I block cookies it simply routes you back to the captcha again. I don't see silent loss of edit
 
Looks like stretch doesn't include release firefox because that would require rust
 
@nwp If that IP's you, it seems to be working now?
 
nwp
8:30 PM
Yeah, it seems to work now.
I can't get it to fail anymore.
I disabled uBlock for the site, made a successful edit, enabled it again, edits still work.
Can't reproduce the error anymore :(
 
great, maybe something in your filters is preventing the session cookie placement or something, I dunno
 
nwp
apt-cache policy firefox does not show a URL. Not sure what that means.
 
9:20 PM
@crasic I'm with @Mgetz. He nails it with "Antagonistic is bad faith".
@nwp Except the context here is Mikhail. I've tried to let him vent for a few months, and then some. I don't think the "being rational afterwards" part is due soon :)
I also didn't run headlong into that wall like @crasic, because, you know, I realize the pattern is strong.
Whoa. What happened. A mass extinction event on the user list :)
 
9:37 PM
@Borgleader
26
A: What are these strange suggested edits?

Brad LarsonRegarding the first edit, if there is a text box on the site, someone will type a question into it. This unfortunately includes tag wikis, from time to time. Reject those as quickly as you can, and if you see someone doing it more than once, give us a custom moderator flag about it. The second e...

> if there is a text box on the site, someone will type a question into it.
 
@sehe let's be honest, he needs a doctorate and a professorship elsewhere
 
@fredoverflow Quite clearly made up long after the fact. In reality, "Goto Considered Harmful" actually was published as a letter to the editor. Not for lack of interest, but because the editor (Niklaus Wirth) thought it so important that waiting months to get it peer reviewed would be a disservice to the community.
 
9:59 PM
@Mgetz I don't know anything about that. If we're to trust his rendition, then yeah, he has nothing to lose. So, that's where I'm going ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I'm not getting a coherent picture, and that leaves me unable to advise.
 

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