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12:02 AM
@Shoe A shoe should not be kicked.
 
12:12 AM
Indeed
 
12:55 AM
but a shoe could be at the bottom of a smelly foot, next to dirt and other possibly even more dirty stuff >_<
 
1:37 AM
0
Q: libcurl can't get CURLINFO_EFFECTIVE_URL

SteveI use curl_easy_getinfo to get url, but sometimes it points to private memory, how can I solve it? 102 bool bb_curl::check_result(CURLcode code, CURL *handle, bool check_url) { 103 if (code == CURLE_OK) { 104 char *url = nullptr; 105 auto rc = curl_easy_getinfo(handle, CURLIN...

 
Yeah, saw that.
If you do the math, the price/performance is actually right compared to Intel.
 
AMD has been playing the bang for your buck game for years now, but iirc they couldnt compete at the top tier.
I'm seeing chips at 3k$ so im assuming theyre trying now
 
These Zen chips top out at around 3.6 - 3.7 GHz all cores (stock). Skylake X will do 4.0 GHz all cores (stock). And Intel still has the IPC advantage.
Overclocked, the Zen chips top out at 3.9 GHz. Intel will go 4.7+ depending on how much time and money you're willing to put into it. (delidding, custom water)
 
I wonder if AMD can close that IPC gap anytime soon.
IIRC you said that instruction decoding was the bottleneck?
 
1:42 AM
They're very close for normal code. (within 5%) But they're still far behind on SIMD.
 
How (bad) is their branch predictor? And memory prefetcher?
 
No idea. Branch prediction is not a bottleneck in my code.
Same with the prefetchers. I have no idea. It doesn't matter for streaming code where you have HT to hide misses.
By the looks of it, AMD has the better L3 cache.
Skylake X's L3, I found today, is very slow in terms of bandwidth.
That could be why my pi program doesn't scale well. While it goes out of it's way to stay in CPU cache, once it's in the CPU cache, it trashes it.
I don't know for sure yet since I haven't benchmarked it yet.
And it'll take a while for me to get the time to do so. Since I have a bunch of other (non-performance-related) shit that I need to clean up.
So that new build is sitting in the living room right now. Off.
 
@Morwenn Are we getting constexpr keyword (so we can overload on constexpr-ness)?
@Mysticial Interesting
 
@Borgleader IOW, my program has been designed assuming that CPU cache is fast. That assumption is no longer true.
 
Not always or never?
 
1:52 AM
The L3 has always been fast.
Until Skylake X.
The L3 bandwidth in Skylake X got cut in half compared to Haswell-E. And because of the AVX512, I need it to be twice as fast.
OTOH, the L2 is 4x as large to compensate for it. It's just that the program isn't optimized for that.
One obvious thing for me to try is set the "last level cache" parameter to match the size of the L2 instead of the L3.
 
TIL delidding
that's some scary shit
 
IOW, assume that the L3 doesn't exist and is as slow as ram.
But because of the AVX512, I'm hitting limitations on how small of a cache I can work off of.
 
also makes me wonder whether people just use their delidded CPUs directly, that is, placing their coolers on top of delidded CPUs
 
So there's gonna be changes needed to break those limits.
@milleniumbug It's called, "direct die cooling". Yes, it's a thing.
 
So basically theres a performance cliff when you start hitting/spilling into L3 cache?
 
1:55 AM
Not recommended though because the die can't take as much pressure as the IHS. So you can easily crack it.
@Borgleader I don't know yet. I need to test it specifically. I just haven't since I'm preoccupied with other shit.
 
That "other shit" is, "WHY THE FUCK DOES Y-CRUNCHER BLOW UP ON THE 64-CORE/128-THREAD AMD EPYC?!?! HAAAAAAALLP!!!"
 
xD
rip
waves @jaggedSpire
 
@Mysticial epyc fail
 
yeah, pretty much.
It's only 128 threads. There were no problems on the 68-core/272-thread Knights Landing system.
 
2:03 AM
How's Epyc so far btw?
 
I'm not sure if I'm even allowed to disclose those benchmarks yet.
It hasn't launched yet.
 
Oh, yeah, that's true.
Was Ryzen decent enough to warrant a purchase?
 
definitely
Not the 1800X, but the 1700 for sure.
 
Cool :) Thanks. I intend to make a new build sometimes soon-ish, end of year approx.
 
If you don't intend to overclock and you want to maximize performance, then get the 1800X.
Because the 1700 has a very low base clock.
 
2:10 AM
I intend normal usage, yes.
 
Overclocked, the 1700 falls only about 100 - 200 MHz short of the 1800X.
But at stock, the 1800X is like 500 MHz faster.
 
@Borgleader ey
 
 
1 hour later…
3:31 AM
@Mysticial 600 MHz, AAMOF. 1700X looks like a reasonable possibility. ~25% lower cost, and only 200 MHz slower (compared to the 1800X).
 
Ah, had my numbers off.
 
@Mysticial Counting is overrated.
 
3:51 AM
I'm kinda debating building a new machine. My current one is getting close to 4 years old, and it was a pretty low-end machine even then. OTOH, it's sometimes pretty fun to show how writing better code lets a $65 CPU beat what they got out of a $1000 CPU... :-)
 
I am moving stuff around and counting how much space I can make on the USB flash drive by copying less relevant stuff onto another externals storage
 
@Telkitty See above--counting is overrated.
 
if counting is overrated, then accessing an array out of bounds should be of no problem
@JerryCoffin spending 5k on a powerful server does not warrant your ill written code would not crash ...
if you code crashes on a $65 CPU, it will probably crash on a $1650 one too
don't blame the CPU, blame it on your code
 
@Telkitty If my code crashes, it's clearly the fault of the compiler or library! (Or else the standard--it's almost never right).
 
not the linker ... like ever?
 
4:10 AM
@Telkitty Well, not in a long time anyway. Back in the MS-DOS days, there were some overlay linkers that were kind of a mess.
 
4:38 AM
I opened up an old app that I had made years ago, almost remembered nothing about it ...
 
5:28 AM
user image
11
 
 
1 hour later…
6:50 AM
Bastille Day is the common name given in English-speaking countries/lands to the French National Day, which is celebrated on 14 July each year. In France, it is formally called la Fête nationale (French pronunciation: ​[la fɛːt nasjɔnal]; The National Celebration) and commonly and legally le 14 juillet (French pronunciation: ​[lə katɔʁz(ə) ʒɥijɛ]; the fourteenth of July). The French National Day commemorates the first anniversary of Storming of the Bastille on 14 July 1789, a turning point of the French Revolution, as well as the Fête de la Fédération which celebrated the unity of the French people...
 
7:08 AM
from your expert opinion, is there any probability for chickens to suffer from alzheimer's?
 
 
2 hours later…
8:43 AM
ueh
damn company firewalls blocking battle.net
 
jww
@Jerry - If you have access tot he GCC Compile Farm, then you can try the AMD 1700X. AMD donated two machines to the compile farm. The Ryzen 7's are gcc67 and gcc68.

The 1700X are comparable to 6th gen or 7th gen Core i7's. However, the AMD have the SHA instruction, which the current Intel CPU's lack. (Intel makes the SHA intruction available on their low-end cpu's at the moment, like Celeron J3455).
 
9:21 AM
don't you just hate it when you drag and can not drop ... and there is no error message ...
 
9:37 AM
umm ... you can't drag and drop, you have to copy and paste ...
 
@BartekBanachewicz what do you need from there
@wilx hahaha. I was looking for ages and spotted the ls only after actually browsing to the sit
 
@sehe starcraft, duh
also TIL RR cars have "power reserve" instead of RPM
 
you play starcraft at work?
 
9:52 AM
@StackedCrooked why not
 
it's an old game
 
@BartekBanachewicz I can name a few reasons
 
@StackedCrooked 2
 
Ven
10:15 AM
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix what? no
make things explicit
 
Anyone familiar with installing C++ on Netbeans? Online tutorials (netbeans.org/community/releases/67/…) require to install cygwin 3.4.4 but I can't find this version for download.
 
In a talk Andrie Alexandrescu mentions an acronym for template method declaration is not an error in a class unless it is called, it was something like SFINAE but different. Does anyone know what it is? Is it something well known?
 
10:40 AM
@IvanIvković 1) don't.
 
@bartek Recommendations?
 
@IvanIvković Visual Studio, QTCreator on linux
 
@BartekBanachewicz QtCreator on windows is good too
 
Aha, will consider it when I get ADSL, right now I'm on tethering cause moving.
Visual Studio has tons of mbs for download.
Netbeans already installed since I was doing JS.
 
MSVS is bloated af, with all of these modules; QtCreator is actualy good and it's legal to use it without buying in an enterprise environment
 
Ven
11:00 AM
"QtCreator is actually good" - actually no one who's used it on medium-to-large projects
 
@Ven again, I'm working in a 2 mil. SLOC core platform SDK for cloud computing, and we're using it in our dev department (about a thousand people total, not only SDK guys)
don't think it's a medium scale
 
Ven
@login_not_failed what's your gold standard for IDEs?
 
reliability :)
I'm biased because I'm using for quite a long time, but I don't want to get back to e.g. MSVS
 
Ven
@login_not_failed is MSVS not reliable by your standards?
 
@Ven it costs a lot of money for what we don't really want, and we're using gcc with mingw for windows, so no real need for MS compiler
but if I had more experience with vi, I'd probably migrate to it — my dev beard is too short for vi at the moment TBH :)
 
11:10 AM
expand your beard with this one weird trick: add a m so that it becomes vim
 
nah it's too easy
 
nwp
I don't think I will ever understand why vim is so popular. Modes that change key bindings seems such a terrible idea.
 
Hey everyone, does anyone know how I can create a new variable of type const char ** from another char ** variable?
 
nwp
@TiagoFerreira someone here knows
 
Thanks @nwp!
 
11:15 AM
@nwp at least it gives you cool points for using very old-looking software, your dev beard grows more and more, and soon you'd find yourself patching a kernel for no reason — or I'd like it to be this way :)
 
@nwp A good mnemonic is that in insert mode 'a' stands for the letter 'a'
 
nwp
@LucDanton If all you do is switch to insert mode, curse at vim for not understanding shift-arrow selection and then do :wq (which is about as much as I can do) you are not really taking advantage of what vim has to offer.
 
oh that’s another easy one, :wq stands for writing :wq in your buffer
 
nwp
@LucDanton I know that. But using vim like that is just strictly worse than nano or just about anything else.
 
well at least you can always :help to write ':help' in your buffer
 
nwp
11:32 AM
Also I love how people really get stuck in vim easy mode which you get with vim -y. I think it was intended for people like me who just want an editor so they made it so you are permanently in insert mode. You just need to figure out the trick to get out.
 
11:46 AM
 
12:10 PM
lol
 
12:38 PM
@wilx oh yeah, I forget you maintain that :P
 
@Mysticial this is actually my main concern with AVX 512, that it's just going to completely destroy CPU caches. The good news is it should allow us to provide heuristics about how large caches actually need to be based on register count and size potentially
 
a good cache profiler is becoming more and more important
 
1:05 PM
with world population still experiencing exponential growth, I am amazed that there are more movies on how humans are going extinct because unable to have children (children of men, handmaid's tale) than what if we multiply 100 times more and deplete earth resources ...
 
@Mysticial sounds very meta :\
 
there are already areas not able to self sustain because of population density, for example, a city like Hong Kong can not rely on solar power to supply it's energy needs
with high enough density of human, self sustain becomes next to impossible
 
@BartekBanachewicz unless of course they are being a dick in the question. But yeah, the question should be judged by it's own merits. Sadly, fan boys love to up vote shit because they recognise who posted it
 
 
@Feeds hahaha ¬_¬ but no, seriously, people need this
 
 
2 hours later…
3:19 PM
@thecoshman "embarassing background tabs" :D
 
3:48 PM
@fredoverflow some of the other things as well though
like how much space to leave around what you want to show, using PNG, maybe just lnik to it
 
and when to not use images but instead cpoy the text as text
 
That too
but screenshotting a website clearly shows you have not tampered with anything ¬_¬
 
4:12 PM
@thecoshman Absolutely true--because no browser ever provided the ability to show the source of a page, and even if they did nobody could possibly edit it. Nor could anybody possibly use a proxy so the browser would show the right URL in the address bar, but show a page slightly (or completely) different than most people would see at that URL. :-)
 
Hello, Cruel World!
 
@Code-Apprentice The world is not cruel. I'm the one that's cruel!
 
You and the world
 
473
Q: Why is this program erroneously rejected by three C++ compilers?

James McNellisI am having some difficulty compiling a C++ program that I've written. This program is very simple and, to the best of my knowledge, conforms to all the rules set forth in the C++ Standard. I've read over the entirety of ISO/IEC 14882:2003 twice to be sure. The program is as follows: Here i...

 
@Mgetz It's more like, I'm not using AVX512 the way it was meant for. You're supposed to take existing (scalar) code and vectorize it - using masks to handle tails and misalignment. Instead, I'm using the 512-bit vector as a native word-size in an algorithm that's already implemented and templated on a word-size.
Intel doesn't think you need cache sizes any large since it's the same code (and same memory footprint) as before. But in my case, I need twice as large caches because the native word-size got twice as big. Instead, Intel halved the useful cache size.
 
4:17 PM
@Mysticial eh... AVX 512 seems like it's more targeted on loads that are too big to run in AVX and too small to move to the GPU
because lets be honest, if you want to do serious number crunching a GPU is the way to go
 
@rightfold By the way, if by "open-source" you mean "source available on github", then freditor is open-source.
 
@Mgetz That....depends. There are certainly number crunching tasks that work well on GPUs. There are equally certainly others that don't work nearly so well. If you mean "simple, single-precision arithmetic on large (but not too large) dense arrays", then yes, a GPU absolutely rules. If you need double precision, most GPUs lose a lot in a hurry. If your task benefits a lot from branch prediction or a large cache...well, a CPU may not work so well. And the list goes on...
 
@JerryCoffin You don't even need a proxy to fake the URL, just type a new one in, don't press enter and click out of the url bar :P
 
People doing HPC do definitely include GPUs in the mix--but there are definitely tasks that (for example) are a lot better suited to clusters of CPUs talking via MPI (or similar) as well.
 
Mystical: what kind of speedup do you see compared to avx256, even with the smaller L3?
 
4:30 PM
@thecoshman Good point.
 
@JerryCoffin but that could never happen, obviously
 
@thecoshman Never!
 
@Froglegs 37% single-threaded, 20% multi-theaded
 
wow thats pretty bad
 
1 thread: 438.432 -> 319.737
20 threads/10 cores: 47.672 -> 39.723
The microbenchmarks for the majority of the critical loops show >= 2x speedup
 
4:37 PM
oh, does it spend much time outside the AVX code?
 
No, even the perfectly vectorized code starts slowing down significantly as I scale up the input sizes beyond the lower level caches while still fitting in L2 + L3.
I did the calculations and the L3 cache simply doesn't have enough bandwidth.
And to be fair, the same factors that prevented my program from scaling on AVX512 (cache and memory bandwidth) are very likely going to be the same factors that block any sort of GPU port.
There's also a fair amount of Amdahl's law getting in the way, but not enough to cause the poor performance that I'm current getting.
 
does xeon phi have the same problem?
 
Yeah, I only get 34% AVX2 -> AVX512 scaling on Knights Landing.
It's not quite as bad as Skylake X/Purley because the MCDRAM is really fast.
 
5:26 PM
> Sometimes I confuse succession laws with fruit.
4
 
5:43 PM
@Mysticial Except that with a GPU you have an extra transmission across PCIe, adding even more to the cost side of the equation.
 
@milleniumbug thank you
 
6:24 PM
Hey
Long time no see everyone
 
@VermillionAzure On a happier note, even longer time, no C.
 
@JerryCoffin wot
 
@VermillionAzure It's been even longer longer since I had to write any C, which make me happy.
 
@JerryCoffin oh
I. C.
 
@Mysticial I'm getting the feeling you'll need to use AVX512 registers as cache
 
6:32 PM
@Mgetz That is exactly precisely the same conclusion I came to a few days ago.
If you take a look at the last column here: numberworld.org/y-cruncher/versions.html
 
@JerryCoffin the sheer execution bandwidth even in DP can still vastly exceed AVX 512 in most cases on any modern GPU
 
You'll notice that the speedup going from v0.7.1 -> v0.7.2 is about the same as going from v0.7.2 -> v0.7.3.
v0.7.2 -> v0.7.3 was the AVX512
v0.7.1 -> v0.7.2 was a optimization that forced more data into the register file.
v0.7.1 -> v0.7.2 but the # of load/stores almost in half.
And it brought as much speedup for Skylake X as the fucking AVX512.
That's just fucking ridiculous.
 
@Mysticial how predictable were your access patterns? I know with a good prefetcher it can in theory be faster than using registers as cache
 
Right now I'm utilizing the extra AVX512 registers via loop unrolling because that was the easiest to do and it doesn't actually reduce the # of accesses to cache. I'll need to do it horizontally to eliminate more passes over cache. But I don't have enough GPRs to do that.
@Mgetz Not very predictable. The algorithm is "blocked" in a way that it operates on chunks of 32 - 64 SIMD registers at a time. But it does anywhere from 4 - 16 blocks at the same time.
And when it's done with a block, it effectively random-accesses to a different block.
 
@Mysticial it strikes me that you're getting very near to the dark arts level where intel engineers recommend prefetch instructions at odd points to make things happen fast
 
6:40 PM
Within the cache that's okay since the latencies are low enough to be hidden by HT. When coming from memory, I have multiple layers of prefetching that try to pull it in early.
The problem is that when I'm working on say a radix-8 block. I have 8 read streams, 8 write stream + 8 prefetch streams.
That's 24 streams, 24 pointers, and I've blown up my GPR register file.
 
@Mysticial how big are the cache lines in skylake-X compared to skylake?
 
Same 64-bytes which is exactly the SIMD size as well. And it fits perfectly with the cache system since there's no need for read-modify-write.
Right now, I'm working around that 24-GPR requirement means of "pointer folding" where I abuse indirect addressing to do multiple streams with a small # of registers.
Aug 8 '16 at 22:11, by Mysticial
Each set of 8 pointers is folded into 4 registers as follows:
T0 = T0
T1 = T0 + 1*stride
T2 = T0 + 2*stride
T3 = T7 - 4*stride
T4 = T0 + 4*stride
T5 = T7 - 2*stride
T6 = T7 - 1*stride
T7 = T7

But since you can't `lea` with a subtraction, you need to split the stride variable into positive and negative versions.
 
@Mysticial insofar as the register renaming isn't shit this shouldn't cause too many issues IIRC
@Mysticial dunno it seems like unless you have a load that can fit almost entirely within file you're going to have trouble hitting Fmax
 
@Mgetz Relying on reg-renaming only works if no more than 16 are live at once. In this case all 24 pointers are live at the same time.
32 AVX512 registers lets me go as high as 16 streams. But even with pointer-folding, I'll need to spill GPRs. And that might be okay. The L1 on Skylake X is fast.
 
@Mysticial yeah it seems to me that at this point AVX512 is mostly wasted silicon, they could have given you have the register count with no real difference
 
6:47 PM
@VermillionAzure So I see, said the blind man, as he picked up his hammer and saw.
 
@Mgetz It's also worth noting that 16 streams is probably beyond the limit for what the hardware prefetcher can track. So you'll either need to manually prefetch or rely on HT to absorb the misses.
 
@Mgetz Yeah, if it's double precision and everything else fits well with a GPU, it'll still beat a CPU--but not by nearly the margin. If you need DP and other parts don't fit so well (e.g., poor branch predictability) you can be burning a lot of your bandwidth.
 
-1
Q: Full stack, web-based app with C++

Shayan SeyediI have a non-technical question about C++. We are going to design a web-based app but we are not sure yet which programming language to use. My manager suggested hiring a full-stack developer who has a strong expertise with C++. I searched over the internet and it seems C++ is being used mainly...

 
@Mysticial my point was that for the vast majority of loads AVX512 wastes a lot of silicon that won't generally be used, if only for the register file. They could have cut the number of registers in half and probably not reduced available bandwidth at all because it would focus algorithms on things that are cache and prefetcher friendly.
 
@Mgetz They (legitimately) needed the 32 registers for the DGMM stuff. And we all know Intel optimizes their processors for Linpack.
You also can't do a 16 x 16 transpose (of 32-bit elements) with only 16 registers.
IOW, I doubt we're gonna see AVX1024 because 32 registers isn't enough for DGMM.
 
7:04 PM
@Mysticial fair enough
 
Hello sheepholes!
Are you ready for your daily dose of standardization? :D
 
@Morwenn NO
 
> DH: changing the behavior will change behavior
 
7:20 PM
-1
Q: c++ Compiler error taking address of temporary [-fpermissive]

Fikri Uzunmy codes are like that (for examle), occur this error while compiling my codes.How can i solve it? Thanks 552:80: error: taking address of temporary [-fpermissive] if( hostAddressCmp( &clusterp->getHostAddress("north", cLOCAL, true), ...

@sehe Another troll question you think? (See comments and edits)
 
i tried running the code snippet, but i erorr: { "message": "Uncaught SyntaxError: Unexpected token :", "filename": "https://stacksnippets.net/js", "lineno": 24, "colno": 20 } can u plz halp? — Mysticial 9 secs ago
 
> WB: that's a horrible fix
> MC: it has the advantage of working
2
 
Warner Brothers? Molten Core?
 
yes
std::array won't get a .c_array() method.
 
7:32 PM
meh
 
std::ratio will likely auto-reduce now.
 
.c_array() could probably be emulated non-portably
 
You can emulate it portably with reinterpret_cast, but then it won't be constexpr.
 
with reinterpreting to a POD type and going all C++17 structured bindings
oh wait, the latter is not needed
 
More about shit & stuff later. I need to eat ^^
 
7:44 PM
@Morwenn What about overloading on constexpr?
plz plz plz plz
 
8:10 PM
@Morwenn Does it not have a .data() method like std::vector?
 
8:22 PM
@Borgleader I honestly don't know.
I don't remember whether the paper was reviewed by EWG in Kona.
@fredoverflow Yes, but people want a way to retrieve a T(&)[N] instead of a T*.
 
8:42 PM
I often find Lippincott's proposals hard to understand :/
 
dumbass
 
@Morwenn rip :(
 
Trump certainly seems to like Macron's wife.
 
> Do we want an std::uncvref_t type trait? 10 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0
 
8:57 PM
@Morwenn That would be convenient.
 
10:23 PM
If you marry an older women, when she dies you can marry another one - right? So that's like getting two wives?
 
€100 'typewriter' turns out to be €45,000 ENIGMA MACHINE http://reg.cx/2tk5
epic
 
10:53 PM
@Mikhail yeah. you can even have three or four wives this way.
 
yes, because this isn't done in parallel
 
@StackedCrooked oh no
 
11:15 PM
A wedding ring is a mutex that makes wife swapping safe?
 
you know, it's amazing the random thoughts that can enter your head
I just had the idea of supergluing my tongue to something
not really sure why
 
Perhaps you aren't getting enough glue in your diet?
Here is some click bait from the Huffington post (wtf happened, I thought they were a real news source...): huffingtonpost.com/the-daily-meal/…
 
11:56 PM
Hello.
 
How is life going?
 
Pretty alright; been on SO for like 2 years but this is the first time I've gone into a chat.
lol gtg
 

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