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8:06 AM
@RudiantoPrasetya You sold out, man. I've had a lot of problems with Confucius culture and co-workers who didn't have the balls to tell the truth if it went against the boss's/companies vision. This is a problem with academia where certain things are not only inefficient or a bad idea but impossible. Also the government is an existential threat to mankind.
 
@Horttanainen dude, who was in charge of a lot of things in Kotlin, Andrey Breslav, was a teacher in my friends school (top-1 school in Russia), and he was pushing it even when he was teaching students Pascal :)
 
> There are at least three things that C++ does better than Terra:
and a 1000 that it does worse
@Mikhail sweet
 
@BartekBanachewicz , the hater of C++
 
@ChemiCalChems I think it's despise more than hate at this point
I'm not using it and haven't had to for quite a while
 
8:11 AM
oh well
 
it's still a pain for me that others use it though
every time a piece of software crashes
 
What about kernel panics?
 
well, it's not really c++ 's fault
 
@ChemiCalChems it kinda is though
 
it's their fault for using c++ in a wrong way
i mean, it's hard to use c++ correctly because fuck c++, but it's their fault too
 
8:13 AM
@ChemiCalChems I can agree with that
I mean all people are terrible
both those responsible for creating C++ and those using it
 
c++ is like stalin. stalin didn't want to kill anybody, they wanted to be killed by stalin, else they wouldn't have committed crimes
 
@Mikhail Change the picture to Bjärne and my day is complete
 
@BartekBanachewicz i argue that people using c++ mostly are good people
 
it just pains me that software industry is so ass backwards about progress when it's literally the easiest industry to improve
as a hobby mechanic/mechanical engineer, working on an engine from 2012 compared to say 1980 is a huuuuuge difference
 
@BartekBanachewicz Where I live, 75% of the jobs are for python devs to parse data in some "unique way"
 
8:15 AM
@Mikhail wow, where i live, there are no jobs
 
@ChemiCalChems I heard IKEA was hiring
 
@Mikhail in spain? don't think so
and if you are hired, it's for a month anyway
so you are better off just dying
 
Ven
Yo
 
@ChemiCalChems "old mexico"
 
8:18 AM
@Mikhail bismark said once something like: "‘I am firmly convinced that Spain is the strongest country of the world. Century after century trying to destroy herself and still no success"
 
@login_not_failed Why were they learning pascal? And was he like "Pascal feels a bit old, doesn't it? Well let me tell you about this brand new language..."
 
@ChemiCalChems "Africa Begins At The Pyrenees"
 
@Mikhail top kek
@Mikhail is there somebody who honestly says that nowadays?
 
Is this real?
 
@BartekBanachewicz No difference whatsoever in the software industry between 1980 and 2012. Got it.
 
8:20 AM
@Telkitty those are my uni entry exams waiting for me in a couple of weeks
i have to study all our god damn history
it's mostly coup de etats anyway, but fucking hell
 
@ChemiCalChems No. On the other hand 20% unemployment is pretty bad. In the US the employment situation has drastically shifted towards employees. Its very hard to fill open job positions, and you hear a lot of advertisements for hiring agencies.
 
But a fat crocodile should look like this - see how it's round instead of flat
 
@Telkitty stop shit posting
 
@Mikhail the problem is there nobody studies, here everyone studies
and here, you have engineers working as bartenders
and not just one or two
i should be fucking studying
oh fucking well
 
If @Mik works as a bartender, he's going to sell wild cucumbers at the side
 
8:23 AM
@ChemiCalChems Someone who espouses some racial theory from the 1900s? Pretty sure you can find some.
 
@ChemiCalChems I disagree with the American side. In the US the numbers of college enrollment after graduation is approaching 70% in many places. In fact, the US is going to have a real problem with over production of certain degrees.
 
@ChemiCalChems let me introduce you to immigrants here who drive taxis with triple PhDs
 
@Horttanainen despite it being a top-1 school, it's still a school; I can see the reasoning here: not all of the students need programming later, but those who need it get at least something
 
And about 50% of post secondary grads who don't find work in their field.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes guess you are right, there are still people who defend a different monarchy line here in spain, because over 200 years ago elizabeth II was queen, and they said another guy should
 
8:24 AM
@ChemiCalChems On the other hand, perhaps half of STEM graduates don't do STEM work, and of that fraction many people suck.
 
@Aaron3468 the world is a wonderfully fucked up place
 
@login_not_failed I thought it was a university
 
this is desperation
"why don't i code an operating system that only allows me to view my goddamn notes on history?"
it all comes down to the same problem, that'd take time
 
@ChemiCalChems "Why don't we hire somebody who reviews their notes on history?"
 
8:26 AM
What university program are you applying to?
 
But really I sympathize
 
@Horttanainen is that me?
 
@LucDanton but only 1 remains, Luis XX 30 de enero de 1989 Hasta la actualidad
 
@Horttanainen I did my formal education already, also served in a military by draft, so I don't need to think about these things anymore :D
 
@ChemiCalChems yeah
 
8:28 AM
nvm lol
 
@Horttanainen don't really know what to answer, just public uni
 
@login_not_failed I also went to army. High five!
 
@Horttanainen clap
 
but they have this fucked up system where to be a physicist you obviously need to know all your history, and it counts toward your uni entry mark
 
@ChemiCalChems Alright. It was just strange that you need to study history
 
8:29 AM
@Horttanainen yeah, welcome to all of our minds
 
Everyone needs to study history.
Kids these days.
 
study, yes
but why do i need to have great marks in history?
if i had to pass it, that'd be awesome
 
yes yes, but not for entry exam please
 
@Horttanainen exactly
 
@Mikhail the other two claims are parallel and (for lack of a better word) 'ongoing'
 
8:30 AM
the hardest degree to get in is maths & physics double degree
 
it's fine! honestly; better study some stuff, then be free to actually do physics, it's really bad, when you are ready to study physics, but there's no infrastructure to do it
 
13.4/14 entry mark
you have to be a god at history, and even PE to get into that degree
does a physicist need to run quick?
 
@LucDanton I see, the Spanish article differs on content from the French one.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes in the native, especially embedded world? pretty much
 
@login_not_failed you have a point
 
8:31 AM
The examples people learn embedded coding from utilize the same C abstractions they did in the 80s
 
@ChemiCalChems I know it's a struggle to study something quickly, but at least you can do whatever you want later :)
 
@BartekBanachewicz Oh, in a subset?
 
@login_not_failed or not
 
In that case.
 
entry mark for physics is a 12.28/14
 
8:32 AM
Did you know that Lada 1200s were still manufactured in 2012?
 
and it's been rising
 
I rest my case.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I started complaining from the "C++ sucks" standpoint
 
chances are even if i perform amazingly i won't make it to physics
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yes, automotive industry can also be behind, if that's your whole point
 
8:32 AM
don't talk about Ladas, please :( it's depressing to see these archaic abominations on wheels still breathing
 
but it's not just native
 
The study of history has always been used for contemporary political purposes. In nationalism it often finds itself the justification for non-pragmatic action. So, maybe we should study history less?
 
Lisp was created ages ago
Haskell is older than Java
and look what's "hot" and "cutting edge" nowadays
 
@Mikhail we should all have a basic notion of history, but i need to learn over 100 pages of pure text in 2 weeks time
it's insane
 
@ChemiCalChems why?
 
8:33 AM
Meh, you're back to your old "my favourite language isn't popular, therefore everything sucks".
 
and it isn't logical
 
@BartekBanachewicz Do you mean Kotlin?
 
@Mikhail for my uni entry exam
the worst part is that i outperform everybody in physics, and most people in maths, at least here at school
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes No, I'm trying to draw a comparison. Vast majority of modern cars are modern. Vast majority of modern codebases is essentially 5-15 years behind
 
but of course you need to be a god at history
 
8:35 AM
@BartekBanachewicz lol, I won't even bother contesting this.
 
the excuses are "well, you also need to have good memory"
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Lada is an outlier. C++97 codebase in 2017 is pretty much norm.
 
@BartekBanachewicz (Taylor) Swift
 
that's all bullshit, it's just a fucking old system based on memorizing, not reasoning
 
@BartekBanachewicz no
 
8:36 AM
of course there are companies on fresh tech and fresh languages
 
But those we can ignore because they don't further your point.
 
I'd wager they don't make up too much of the produced software
is this the point where we look at data?
 
@BartekBanachewicz But.
Let's say we take your 5-15 years number.
 
I mean if you could show me that, for example, 50% of C++ code written last year was C++14... (which is 3 years old)
 
Shall we take the midpoint, maybe?
10 years.
Following so far?
 
8:37 AM
@BartekBanachewicz nonono it shouldn't be 14, let's say C++11
 
Now look up average age of a car on the road.
 
> Average age of vehicles on road hits 11.6 years
 
15% are on C++03
 
C++ versions -> C99
 
8:39 AM
lol
 
Among C/C++ Devs (the image is out of context)
 
C++ versions -> 99C
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes okay, but that's maintenance and not new features. Should new features or new releases of existing software be treated as maintenance of old cars that keeps them working?
 
Also, where's C++14? D:
 
99 cents
 
8:39 AM
Also you can't refactor an existing car.
 
I thought you wanted to move fast.
Rewriting everything every two years isn't going to help.
 
@ChemiCalChems really it just means policy makers decided there are too many physicists and that they want more physicists who stay in Spain.
 
@Mikhail If you take only actual C++, that's more than 50% C++11.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes start with writing new code with the new standard
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes And its from 2015, blog.jetbrains.com/clion/2015/07/…
 
8:41 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes that's actually quite surprising (and a bit convincing)
 
@BartekBanachewicz That's essentially what people are doing.
There's plenty of C++ job offers out there with descriptions like "we have an old codebase but are adopting new stuff".
 
Ven
@R.MartinhoFernandes and break things*
@Morwenn hey, don't be like that.
My current C teacher allowed us to use C11. We were stuck on C89 for the past 4 years.
 
@Ven That's impressive.
 
Ven
(and the past 10 years before I enrolled)
It's annoying as f***, mostly.
 
@Ven That's not surprising, really.
Plenty of people skipped C99.
 
8:43 AM
Well to be fair a 2017 car uses technology that was prototyped probably around 2007
 
Ven
I really can't wait to take over those classes and teach them something better.
 
@Ven Like Kotlin?
2
 
Ven
Like C++. evil laugh
 
@Ven And many did C89 + C++ comments.
 
Ven
@R.MartinhoFernandes GNU extension?
I'm fairly sure my GCC pestered me about those, but we were to compile with -pedantic and all, so.
 
8:45 AM
@Ven All mainstream compilers had this, AFAIK.
 
Ven
@Mikhail The last two things I taught were PHP and C++, so... Maybe a bit later...
 
MSVC notoriously didn't support C99.
 
Ven
I really need to convince them they need a ocaml/Haskell class :D.
@R.MartinhoFernandes it supports it now? I thought they weren't even ready with the lib part?
 
I'd say lack of compiler support on Windows is a reasonable excuse to not use C99 in class.
 
Ven
8:46 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes the school only has macs everywhere
so no not really
also "not on msvc"/="not on windows"
 
> Finally, in the specific comparison of Haskell versus Java, Haskell, though not perfect, is of a quality that is several orders of magnitude higher than Java, which is a mess
 
@Ven The lib is okayish, and they implemented just enough language features to support some big libraries IIRC.
 
I should frame that and put on my wall at work
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Why use POSIX libraries all over the place then? There's also a notable lack of support on Windows.
 
When comparing Haskell vs Kotlin, the Slant community recommends Haskell for most people. In the question“What are the "best" (productivity-enhancing, well-designed, and concise, rather than just popular or time-tested) programming languages?” Haskell is ranked 5th while Kotlin is ranked 24th. The most important reason people chose Haskell is:
 
nwp
8:48 AM
I actually played with Haskell. Is it really impossible to express arrays in Haskell or did I miss something?
 
@nwp you did miss a lot
There's at least a dozen libraries that deal with various kinds of arrays around
 
@Morwenn Well, I didn't say it was a good excuse in all cases :D Clearly not if they do this.
 
nwp
Good to know.
 
including automatic parallelization of array algorithms (cue Repa)
 
Ven
@nwp you mean as opposed to lists?
 
nwp
8:49 AM
wait, I need a library for arrays?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's what they always did when I was in school :'(
 
@nwp there's no one definitive "array" that fits everyone
 
Ven
@nwp you have [1,2,3] baked in, but those are cons cells.
 
nwp
@Ven linked lists are built-in, but arrays apparently are not
 
@BartekBanachewicz Haskell is also one of the few languages which I could not easily open a file in after following the tutorial. I had to spend a few days learning about the IO Monad.
 
8:50 AM
@Ven Yes, but it's a lot more hassle for students to setup other compilers. Well, at least it was not long ago.
 
@Aaron3468 you certainly don't need to understand the IO Monad to open a file.
 
@Mikhail Oh no, I didn't sell out and hopefully never will :)
 
Ven
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'd agree with you if we didn't have a rule that specified their code must be tested and working on either a linux VM (the school has debian 8 VMs for anyone who asks) or on the provided imac
 
Simply, I put the "blame" on the "game" rather than the "players".
 
@Ven Yeah, can't argue in that case.
 
8:51 AM
Most of utterly retarded decisions people make are perfectly rational, in a way.
 
@nwp well there's also the thing that people kinda disagree with even Prelude and craft their own, which shows just how delicate "standard libraries" topic is
 
Ven
@RudiantoPrasetya It's just a decision that was taken 15 years ago, and no one ever questioned it.
 
@Mikhail Also you sold out to capitalism, abandoning Mother Russia
 
head is a montrosity for one
 
@Ven What decision?
 
Ven
8:52 AM
@RudiantoPrasetya C89
 
@nwp Lists are lists. They're not linked lists.
 
@Ven pop quizz 2017 - 1989 = ?
 
@nwp the list syntax is built-in, the data-type isn’t. there is an extension to re-use that syntax for non-list things
 
@BartekBanachewicz What!? But the tutorial spent so long speaking about monads just to introduce IO. Haskell has a habit of being taught like mathematics, in the most roundabout way possible.
 
@RudiantoPrasetya They didn't necessarily make the decision when C89 came out.
 
Ven
8:53 AM
@RudiantoPrasetya what's your point?
 
@Aaron3468 There are numerous Haskell tutorials out there.
 
Ven
"It was already outdated by then" yeah sure whatever, graybeards then picked C89 anyway.
 
nwp
@R.MartinhoFernandes my tutorial said "We can see that [2,3,4] notation is just convenient shorthand for 2 : 3 : 4 : []. Note also that these are really singly linked lists, NOT arrays."
 
@Ven I don't know, your statement confused me, I was replying to Mikhail and I don't know why you're talking to me about C89
 
Ven
@RudiantoPrasetya conversations mixed up :c
 
8:54 AM
@BartekBanachewicz yeah, and I keep choosing the same two because they show up first in results. I resign myself to being a haskell badlet.
 
@nwp well, that's pretty much wrong then if you assume a typical understanding of what "a linked list" is
 
@nwp Yeah, they're just lists.
 
@Ven A race condition in this chat, despite the presence of thread-safety measures such as reply arrows? Impossible.
 
> We'll see exactly why that is so a bit later when we venture off into the world of monads. For now, you can think of it in the way that the do block automatically extracts the value from the last action and binds it to its own result.
 
@nwp They might be isomorphic to linked lists, but then they also are isomorphic to arrays (well, not to Haskell arrays, but the ones you are familiar with).
 
8:56 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes your isomorphisms suck
 
I thought islamomorphisms were politically incorrect?
 
I have the best isomorphisms - ask anyone - they're great!
inb4 luc gets all pedanton over my lack of emdash
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Eh, that seems strange.
 
@LucDanton (Oh shit, forgot infinite ones)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes sure, that’s the big problem and not all of the random-access algorithms lol
 
nwp
8:59 AM
Is there something like godbolt for haskell? I feel like even asking such a thing means I'm on the wrong track.
 
> Afin de proposer plus de flexibilité aux les développeurs, Google leur permet désormais d'interdire leurs applications et contenus aux smartphones rootés ou pas suffisamment performants.
lol
 
@LucDanton Er, how's that relevant?
 
@nwp unfortunately there aren’t even good online sandboxes for Haskell
 
@LucDanton okay, what are bad online sandboxes then?
 
Ven
@RudiantoPrasetya 'has been a long time, no?
 
9:00 AM
my favorite haskell sandbox is made of reinforced concrete and is ideally situated at the bottom of the ocean
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes cos it’s pointless to iso to a setting where you have to pretend that random-access doesn’t exist
 
There are in and out functions such that in·out = id
 
@login_not_failed all the 'online haskell compiler' results you get when searching
 
@LucDanton I thought about something better concealed than this! ~_~
 
@nwp Wandbox? Also Coliru has some older version
 
9:01 AM
"concealed online haskell compiler"
 
at the ocean bed, surrounded by concrete
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yes and no useful elimination of the result of the list-to-array half (other than, well, using it as a list)
 
> /usr/lib/ghc/bin/ghc: error while loading shared libraries: libHShaskeline-0.7.2.1-GGvi737nHHfG6zm2y7Rimi-ghc7.10.3.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
welp, apparently someone broke ghc on coliru
 
@BartekBanachewicz cool, I'll keep that tutorial then. The code is legible.
 
9:03 AM
@RudiantoPrasetya that only works for deep web searches
 
> You must have 50 reputation to share a comment
 
@Aaron3468 this was the one I learned from
 
@LucDanton haskelcompiler.onion
 
I think the only reason I keep leaving Haskell is its lack of good gui libraries.
 
@LucDanton I can't parse that :|
 
9:03 AM
@Horttanainen rep-whore just a bit more! answer one more question about arrays in C :D
 
I just have a deepseated bias because of how many times I've left halfway into learning it
 
@login_not_failed But I dont wanna
 
@Horttanainen I know that feel
 
@Aaron3468 Try F#
 
@Aaron3468 Like native-looking gui?
 
9:04 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes ah sorry, what I was getting at is that I consider it somewhat deceptive to describe an isomorphism on the contents as an isomorphism on a data structure
well, 'deceptive' might be too strong. 'unfortunate' perhaps
 
nwp
@BartekBanachewicz Did you forget that godbolt only shows assembler code or is there a semi-straightforward way to do that on wandbox? I suppose one can make it work on coliru with objdump.
 
@nwp I did forget that.
Haskell generated assembly is pretty hard to read though
 
really...? why is that?
 
if you're used to stuff like "oh there's a function call under that call" then you're in for a dissapointment
for one because Haskell functions aren't called
 
@LucDanton Well, that's what an iso is. I didn't mean to say one could pretend they're arrays, but that if "isomorphic" was what the author meant, that'd include arrays too.
 
9:07 AM
@BartekBanachewicz yeah, though I don't mind something a little bit off, like Java's Swing libraries.
 
nwp
Making and printing a list should be straightforward and I could probably guess from the instructions how it iterates through the list and take a guess how lists work. Unless it just constant-folds everything away, which would actually be really good.
 
Is there a Haskal ABI
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yes, it’s about the domains and co-domains
 
@Aaron3468 admittedly this is an area where the ecosystem is lacking. I started working on an UI system for my framework, but that has proven very difficult to say the least
 
@LucDanton E.g. consider Either () () and Bool. It's still an iso even if Bool doesn't have either.
 
9:08 AM
I suppose the bottom line is that noone really has any idea how to fit it with the rest of idiomatic code
@RudiantoPrasetya Well there's the C FFI which you can use
 
@BartekBanachewicz No I mean inside the language itself. Like what is call used for, then.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes indeed, but in this case you can write a boolEither that will have similar properties to either. for arrays, random-access does not carry over
 
Ah, then I'll probably give haskell a hard pass. A lot of my projects are oriented towards graphics and visualization in some way or another.
 
@LucDanton There's (!!). I don't think complexity class matters for this.
 
I need a good trusty guide to explain me the best ways to export C++ classes from DLLs. My hair is turning grey
 
9:10 AM
@Aaron3468 graphics themselves are kinda okay. The OpenGL binding is pretty solid for example
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes but non-termination does? same deal, it’s all in the semantics :)
@RudiantoPrasetya no
 
@LucDanton It's not about non-termination!
 
@RudiantoPrasetya whatever GHC spits out as something callable natively, I suppose
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I mean when you brought up non-termination as a valid counter-argument
 
There's (at least) one value of type [Int] that cannot be converted to some Array Int.
@LucDanton If you mean non-termination in a computational sense, then no, that's not what I brought up.
An infinite list is just a value of type [Int].
 
9:11 AM
you can choose a semantic for just the contents, you can choose a semantic with the contents that account for non-termination, and you can choose a semantic that accounts for what makes a data structure a data structure
 
@Aaron3468 Also if you wanted to try out Hate I could provide some support (altough I haven't worked on it for a while :( )
 
It just happens that sum doesn't terminate with such a value.
 
@BartekBanachewicz ah, as long as it can be put in a window with the close, minimize, and maximize buttons, you can make a gui in opengl. Arguably better because it can render and interact with 3d data.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I meant in the semantical, err, meaning. i.e. what you need to be able to talk about e.g. take n . cycle $ [1, 2, 3]
 
9:12 AM
Could somebody please point out to this guy that it makes no sense to export a interface which is already completely in the header file? I don't have the reputation: stackoverflow.com/a/10228012/5142164
 
@LucDanton Pretty sure you can make some kind of diagonal argument to show that [Int] and some Array Int (as understood by someone from C) don't have the same cardinality, which means you cannot write in (it would be a partial function).
 
@BartekBanachewicz I don't understand. call semantics are reasonably narrow, there's not a lot that can be implemented on top of that, aside functions and thunks.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes right! so to someone who cares about that sort of thing, your isomorphisms would suck!
 
28
Q: Understanding GHC assembly output

haskellineWhen compiling a haskell source file using the -S option in GHC the assembly code generated is not clear. There's no clear distinction between which parts of the assembly code belong to which parts of the haskell code. Unlike GCC were each label is named according to the function it corresponds t...

 
@LucDanton Yep, and that's why mentioned the infinite ones.
 
9:15 AM
@BartekBanachewicz I don't see how that is harder to read than optimized C++-emitted assembly.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes well, the semantics I care about that makes your isomorphism sucks would take into account e.g. random-access. which I think is fair enough because would you really say straight-faced that a list is as good as an array or vice versa?
 
(Of course AT&T syntax is atrocious)
@LucDanton pls no discrimation on sexual orientation
@BartekBanachewicz In fact the code seems quite readable, there's just a lot of boilerplate around it.
.Lcl7:
    cmpq $0,_module_registered
    jne .Lcl8
.Lcl9:
    movq $1,_module_registered
    addq $-8,%rbp
    movq $__stginit_base_Prelude_,(%rbp)
.Lcl8:
    addq $8,%rbp
    jmp *-8(%rbp)
 
@RudiantoPrasetya maybe my standards for readable assembly are just different :P
 
I guess
> How to design tentacle massage machine?
 
@RudiantoPrasetya in lieu of an ABI you could settle on what a particular GHC version does for C API calls
 
9:19 AM
@LucDanton No, but that's not what an iso implies.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes it does inasmuch as you are picking domains and codomains for your iso
 
The domains and codomains were decided from the outset.
We do need to remove infinite lists, but that's it.
 
that doesn’t make the isomorphisms suck less!
@R.MartinhoFernandes I suppose they were, yes. implicitly, by you. is that selection not above reproach?
 
9:33 AM
@LucDanton Ok, I think we're on the same page.
@RudiantoPrasetya You mean calling conventions? If you're using GHC with the LLVM backend for x86, it passes everything in registers, and it goes out of its way to do so.
Dunno about other combinations of backend/architecture.
 
can anybody tell what is this statement doing
someVar1<someVar2*>(param1, param2)
 
9:53 AM
Somebody really loves to mess with Coliru's feedback page. This time he seems to have copied old comments and posted them as new comments.
 
hahahaha, wtf
 
judging how much influence they have around the globe, it seems reasonable; but 200… how? i don't understand
 

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