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12:00 AM
sehe, the insomnia polar bear
 
@sehe Yeah, isn't sad when you get your "butt handed to you" by that kind of system!?
 
When does that happen?
@rightfold of course
Don't fall asleep now
that would be a waste of time
 
user1804599
@sehe Ik eet nu beschuit met kaas.
 
user1804599
Het is lekker.
 
De zinnen zijn kort.
Dat is heel begrijpelijk.
 
user1804599
12:06 AM
That's what she said.
 
@Mikhail pig butt is called ham, cow butt is called round
 
12:26 AM
@sehe Yes, that's probably a large part of why there's a market for Robocopy. Completely irrelevant to what Linux needs though, now isn't it?
 
Not completely.
For things like rsync, by all means. And I usually pipe things through mbuffer | pbzip2 for WAN transfers. Which is also deffo multi thread. And very IO oriented.
So, it's not the IO in general that needs threading. It's the meta-data traversal.
 
but also sometimes the IO, especially on ZFS
 
How? That's weird.
Do you have full dedup with verify on or what
I can imagine that a lot of inode manipulation could be slower than say ext2.
Because it actually does more in terms of tx & redundancy guarantees.
 
12:42 AM
Parity + ZFS? So, the claim is partially motivated by Bonnie++ benchmarks where the max CPU usage is high - while doing something like this on an single NTFS SSD shows almost no consumption.
 
Yeah. Which ones, bonnie has multiple scenarios
What the hell "Parity + ZFS". That's like saying "Birds + Nature"
 
Its possible to do ZFS without parity, aka RAID0 vs RAID6
 
IKR. It's still weird to say Parity + ZFS.
 
Its Windows language, for example Storage Spaces + Parity. Storage Spaces is really fucked, but adding parity drops the speed down to single MB/s
 
Sigh. It's not windows language. ZFS is an empty moniker once you label Parity separately.
 
12:46 AM
Obviously RAIDZ2 has overhead
 
Obviously.
 
RAIDZ3 has more overhead
 
@Mikhail Anyhoops, it is faster on NTFS? I can't really imagine. I completely expect CPU to be significantly higher with ZFS, but never so much higher that multi-threading would help.
@Mikhail You know. Why mention it. Those are all obvious. I'm trying to get you to say what's really happening with your zpools for... like 2 weeks now. Maybe stop debiting these meaningless statements.
Right now, I've reached the end of my patience though. It's late. I'll just go to bed.
If ZFS uses so much CPU that it becomes the bottleneck, there's something misconfigured. This is what I know from my experience with it on Solaris, BSD, ZoL and zfs-fuse.
(I also know ZFS was dog-slow for small file-operations in zfs-fuse. Luckily NTFS was even dogger slow in the day)
 
@sehe, okay so what steps would you take to tune a ZFS pool with 24 drives?
 
Ell
Remove 23 of the drives
 
12:53 AM
@Mikhail I'd go the the usual tweaking guides (I said this a number of days ago). It all depends on what you require, first.
 
Sequential write is about 550 MB/s, compared to a HW RAID configuration on my previous build which can push 1500 MB/s (and half the box is full)
@sehe So, which guide, or parameter?
 
I can try to find one that I recognize but they're not hard to find.
@Mikhail It depends. Did you build the pool with ashift=12?
 
Yes, and also atime=off
 
Good.
 
For example
I get basically this:
24x 4TB, striped raid0, 90.4 TB, w=692MB/s , rw=260MB/s , r=1377MB/s
 
12:56 AM
So, I take it you did use raidz on a few vdevs?
 
I RAIDZ2-ed all the drives
 
@Mikhail Looks like a "what you can expect" intro, not a tuning guide
@Mikhail Fair enough. Might not be optimal, but should not be "bad"
 
So,
24x 4TB, striped raid0, 90.4 TB, w=692MB/s , rw=260MB/s , r=1377MB/s
Now with HW RAID
24x8TB has write at about 1500 MB/s
 
Copies = 1 I presume?
 
Yes, left it as default
 
1:00 AM
@Mikhail What numbers for RAID5 or so?
I mean, can't compare striping with raidz in the first place.
 
Its about 550 MB/s with RAIDZ2, HW RAID is RAID6 and about 1500MB/s
 
Ah. That seems like a reasonable comparison.
Can you perhaps just pastebin zpool status -v and zpool get all and zfs get all -s local,inherited,received
 
One sec, let me get on VPN
 
what evil things are you planning to do?
 
1:09 AM
@Mikhail This looks informative wiki.freebsd.org/ZFSTuningGuide
Strange. I think feature@large_blocks is usually enabled by default
@Mikhail Looks like it is relatime, not noatime though (see your paste)
 
Yeah, I needed that (I think) for synchronizing files across the network. Although the files are large (16 MB), so it shouldn't really matter.
 
What? Are you talking about the large blocks, or atime?
 
atime needs to be on, to switch to the less intensive relatime, although these have a negligible effect for xx MB files
 
16M is not really large. But yeah. Atime should be noise. Still could be significant for many many files (a problem is could kill prefetch)
Largeblocks feature is disabled on your pool. That sounds suboptimal. You may want to tweak recordsize for filesystems if you know all these files have a particular size like that.
 
StoragePod feature@large_blocks enabled local ?
 
1:20 AM
Oracle still documents atime=off recommendation for their own mysql + zfs guide
@Mikhail Damn. I confused left-right when comparing. False alarm.
 
1:31 AM
This one is the one I remember. But it seems "temporarily" (?) offline solaris-cookbook.eu/solaris/solaris-10-zfs-evil-tuning-guide
 
I mean, the only thing I'm not doing is having a SLOG device. I might add one tomorrow, but I would hope my 200GB of RAM would provided enough cache.
 
Only if you configure it. I don't think ARC cache uses that much liberally.
I believe memory allocators are a bit of an achilles heel in ZoL because they ported the slab allocator as is from Solaris, and it works differently from how Linux kernel allocators work. You may have to tell it to use the memory.
@Mikhail Also, cache != ZIL. On the contrary
 
I have a bad habit of making up my own words :-)
 
I must admit my recent performance intuition only stem from mirroring on ZoL. I concur that performance should be closer to H/W raid and I don't see any obvious source of slowness in the config posted (except indeed, as you noted, absense of vdev differentiation)
@Mikhail In this case, apparently it made you make a thinko, because you cannot do the intent log ("journalling") in RAM for obvious reasons
And, just to be sure, the ZIL should really be on SSD. It can act as a l2arc: zfsbuild.com/2010/04/15/explanation-of-arc-and-l2arc
I'm heading to bed now, for reals. Good luck with the pool. I'm interested to see whether you can increase the performance.
 
I just want $2k to end this nightmare, and get back to my actual research work (microscopes and diagnosis)!
 
1:49 AM
OMFG! Japanese doramas are awesome.
I am just finishing Hanzawa Naoki.
The main villain is awesome.
 
irta diorama
 
@Mikhail Erm, what's wrong with basically just mirroring, or just (ZFS on) H/W raid? I mean, what is the goal?
 
My professor won't give me any money buy a hardware raid card, splitter, and backplane.
 
typical university funding
 
@sehe So, during my PhD I built like 3 of these 24x8TB machines. For my 4th machine I tried to get the density up by using the chassis from BlazeBack. Among the problems I encountered was that the backplane (5 port spliter), is not compatible with RAID cards.
 
1:56 AM
Yeah. I seemed to remember you had a little bit of experience in these things :)
 
My experience was "plug everything in" and it worked. The other experience was on a CRAY system, and Lustre, which dozens of people tune.
 
Yeah. Unless you're the one tuning, that is indistinguishable from magic
 
I'm sad to admit that my latest build was not "webscale".
 
@Mikhail Fuck RAID.
JBOD master race.
 
@Mysticial Not all of us have bullshit workloads, you cuck
 
1:58 AM
zing
@Mikhail I understand now. I think you will probably get a bit of mileage out of a slog vdev. Not on par with the H/W raid, likely. But who knows. Fingers crossed.
@Mysticial With ZFS, there's no difference. Well, no real difference (although ZFS deals badly with vdevs of different capacities, so there's that)
 
Fuck ZFS.
NTFS master race.
 
2:14 AM
Lest, we forget why the Linux community can't have nice filesystems: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Reiser
 
Very proud of Arabella and Joseph for their performance in honor of President Xi Jinping and Madame Peng Liyuan's o… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/850488492828360704
And Haters gonna hate
 
I finally figure out what 3 phase electricity is ...
it's like multiplexing, but with more power
 
no
 
learning knowledge where electrician is working on the switchboard
 
@Mysticial lel. You would prefer raw block access
 
2:26 AM
@Telkitty as practice you are welcome to try to "upgrade" wiring in your house.,
 
2:40 AM
@Telkitty pls no
 
3:18 AM
@Telkitty It's more like de-multiplexing. Three signals, all at low bandwidth, but still transmitted over three separate lines.
 
3:57 AM
@sehe I always wondered how practical that actually is.
 
Not very.
 
 
2 hours later…
6:14 AM
404 featured found
 
6:42 AM
0
Q: Can we change the inaccurate wording of semi-perm bans?

TelkittyLook at this: A temporary suspension for 10 years with roughly 8 years remaining. Is 10 years temporary? I hardly think so. You don't say you temporarily lived in a place for 10 years or you temporarily worked in a company for 8. In many developed countries, manslaughter only carries 1-2 yea...

@Mikhail look what I have found:
 
 
3 hours later…
user1804599
9:52 AM
I want to make software.
 
10:32 AM
I'm making it, had a nice morning
 
11:08 AM
make software, not war!
 
11:37 AM
@rightfold I can't see what it is
 
user1804599
?
 
Precisely. "?" is what it is. Something seems to be in that case. But the picture is taken from mount Fuji or so, so I'll never know
 
user1804599
Garbage.
 
Oh. I don't know what kind, but yeah, that's strange
 
@Telkitty Make war software!
 
11:47 AM
make software war?
 
Make softwar
 
11:59 AM
My program is split over many files and many functions require an argument int total_blocks and I gave defined #define #define N (max(total_blocks, 5) + 1) in some header file and included wherever necessary but I am getting undeclared identifier total_blocks. So what should I do? It worked with all files merged.
make it a global variable? and then assign the constant value?
 
user1804599
I'm so bored.
 
12:17 PM
@jaggedSpire I don't see the point in reopening that question
 
12:28 PM

C++ Questions and Answers

Solve problems and approach solutions. Just ask and lurkers wi...
 
1 message moved to bin
 
@Mgetz , did I post it in wrong chat room?

Sorry, I will transfer the question to that one.
 
Already done. With a detour.
 
Good morning
 
 
3 hours later…
3:53 PM
well good morning
wow
not many posts last night
almost like it was Friday night :V
 
4:24 PM
@jaggedSpire good morning
 
awwwwww
I just want to cuddle him <3
 
4:42 PM
ok so
I am DMing a DnD campaign tomorrow
any suggestions? I suddenly realized I've got no fuckin' clue what I am doing
 
5:14 PM
Be an asshole.
 
lol
 
Kill their characters :P
I briefly did DnD. The guy was kinda an asshole. But he did the DM thing pretty good.
 
5:28 PM
@Puppy expect the players to not follow any plan you make
 
@jaggedSpire Yep, getting that feeling
 
also don't get attached to any NPC you create
because PCs are murder hobos and may attempt to (and succeed!) kill an NPC they have decided is evil or annoying or has neat loot
 
lol
 
especially the neat loot thing
When I played DnD regularly, once the group walked into a room, saw a new NPC with a nice bow and the cleric said "Dibs on the bow" before she spoke.
you might want to get an idea of what the players want out of the game, and their expectations going in
if someone wants to roleplay and another person wants to munchkin their way into breaking the game you'll want to know that beforehand so you can figure out how to deal with the difference in playstyles and priorities there.
 
Xeo
look at some of the top posts
did the group play D&D before?
which version of D&D?
have you already made characters?
 
5:37 PM
They can play in the same group--mine had a minmaxer and a roleplayer and they got on peaceably but you might want to let both have some time to do their thing
 
Xeo
do the other people know what the campaign is about?
 
any house rules?
 
Xeo
are there any experts in the round?
 
aw shizzle
I need a DM screen
 
Xeo
not necessarily
I've done campaigns where the DM had open rolls
 
5:40 PM
I don't mind doing open rolls most of the time but I surely want the choice to do closed rolls if I want to
 
could also use your laptop and just roll on there
 
unfortunately I left it at work
definitely thinking that it will be a key asset
 
also allows quick access to reference books when one of the players decided that yes, they would like to set the table on fire and use it to hit someone
 
Xeo
@Puppy Could also roll on your smartphone
there are lots of Android apps
 
yep
I have a Windows phone actually ;p
 
Xeo
5:43 PM
got a tablet?
if not, you can also make an impromptu DM screen with books
 
Watching cppchat.
 

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