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7:00 PM
sob"Son of A Bitch"
 
Yes, I know what that means.
 
@Smple_V dtruss?
 
nahh
 
7:22 PM
oh there's withRWST
*LuaAS Control.Monad.RWS> runRWST (withRWST g f) 3 2
1
2
((),2,())
amazing
that's just what I needed
crap, I need to apply it to the exceptT somehow though
@Ell so what will you tell me about your thoughts about ordered effects where that matters?
 
Ell
7:45 PM
I'll be completely honest - I have never written any code using monad transformers vOv
 
@Ell oh it was @Shoe that was an avid opponent of them then
 
Ell
@rightfold I think it's the 2nd answer
@BartekBanachewicz nah, I do jokingly mock them
instead advocating for free monads
I'm not really experienced enough yet to have a proper debate, but to my unexperienced eyes of course the thing I've used (free monads) look better
 
@Ell they're unordered though, right?
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz yes
well
the free monad is just a single data type
 
as I understand it it's generalizing the recursion of the transfomer type
 
Ell
7:52 PM
but you use products & coproducts of datatypes (swierstra style)
 
well, what if I specifically need that ordering?
 
Ell
I mean, it's not unlikely that I'm wrong :P my current focus is on type indexed fixed points anyway
 
> I feel like we have been "state shaming" on this subreddit to the point that people are so obsessed with telling everyone else they don't use state they forgot what state actually is...
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz well, I think you can interpret them in whichever order you want
 
@Ell isn't that what I just said?
omg new version works
closurePush :: forall m a. Monad m => TableRef -> LuaMT m a -> LuaMT m a
closurePush t (LuaMT a) = LuaMT $ mapExceptT (withRWST (\cls s -> (t:cls, s))) a
this is amazing
 
user1804599
7:56 PM
@Ell why?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Oh, I see you bumped into Bisqwit lately. Normally I'd assume you're using autistic incorrectly, but in his case, I would say that you are almost certainly correct.
 
Ell
@rightfold oh wait oops I answered for [1, 0] instead of [1, 2]. My new answer is the 3rd shape. I let each neighbour vote on a top colour and a bottom colour
 
@Aaron3468 the thing I've noticed afterwards is that he actually preps those videos beforehand, which makes the live coding a bit less creepy
 
8:18 PM
@fredoverflow I guess that sort of depends on who "we" is. I've been of that opinion for quite a bit longer, but when I first realized it, I felt quite alone...
 
@JerryCoffin Some schools have started teaching programming using Javascript.
I have no idea what the results are going to be on that.
 
@Edward Hello boys and girls. I'm going to teach you programming by demonstrating everything you need to avoid.
 
@JerryCoffin How did you get my lecture notes?
 
@Edward Sometimes I almost wonder if it isn't planned: we're going to help the third world develop by exporting jobs there--and we'll do that by refusing to teach those skills any more.
 
Oh, I dunno. It seems to me that web development is already a heavily exported job.
 
8:26 PM
@Edward I posted the first draft to 80xxx several years ago. If you could just find the moderator, you could probably find it. Some guy name something "Beroset", or something like that...
 
@JerryCoffin That's a weird name. It's probably fake.
 
Probably a contraction of "Beer, I'm set"...
 
Javascript is fine as a first language, but it's not really practical for anything except web development :( python's better for an introduction to general purpose programming
 
@Edward On the other hand, your name sounds so real that it's suspicious.
 
@Morwenn Fitting--he's a pretty suspicious person.
 
8:30 PM
@JerryCoffin It's an anagram for "to beers!" so I think you're on to something there.
@Aaron3468 A lot depends on the quality of the teacher.
 
@JerryCoffin I know right? Who looks like an electronic component? :p
 
@Morwenn You're just jealous because you don't know how to transist.
 
@Edward I sure know how to trans.
 
@Morwenn OK, that's probably close enough!
 
:p
Anyway, I'm leaving. It's barbecue time.
 
8:33 PM
What kind of BBQ?
 
@Edward Probably bought from a stor.
 
@Edward Not sure. Probably spicy merguez sausage, some chicken and onion/
 
@Morwenn Mmmm, tasty. Save me some!
 
@Edward It might be too difficult.
 
@Morwenn You're right. I wasn't going to save you any wine, either.
:)
 
8:35 PM
@Edward Yeah, that's true. I still think python's in a better position as an introductory language and has a decent culture of coding practice. Javascript dialects are the wild west
 
@Aaron3468 Agreed. Most of the local universities are using Python or Java as the first language for non-computer majors.
 
@Edward As soon as I saw the teacher was using an Apple computer, the title became redundant.
@Morwenn I did (when I was a member of the resistance).
 
Still, I started with BASIC and I'm perfectly fine.
 
@Edward Probably mentally mutilated to the point that you can no longer recognize your own problems (unfortunately, I used BASIC too, so I can't help).
 
I started with rainmeter in its early days. The language was just configuration files ^^; Then I moved into Basic and Ruby
 
8:42 PM
@Edward was he doing that on purpose or is he that bad :F
 
user1804599
Cool, Rust type-checks code snippets in documentation comments.
 
@JerryCoffin I wonder if that's what people think when I show up with a mbp
 
@BartekBanachewicz On purpose, but the fact that you ask the question shows that it's unfortunately realistic.
 
@Aaron3468 I guess rainmeter is fitting--I always thought of you as Rain Man, anyway.
 
I hadn't heard of rainmeter before.
 
8:44 PM
@Edward yeah I was seeing one basic mistake after another to the point of exemplification, so I felt it was off. Has this been dragged out to 45 minutes (poor souls), it would be plainly horrendous
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'll bet you've been in classes just like that, though. I know I have!
 
@BartekBanachewicz Only if they're as prejudiced as I. Well, it's probably impossible to be as prejudiced as I am, but if they happen to share this particular prejudice with me, they might.
@Edward I had one class that was fairly close--but to complete the picture, he needed to have an Indian accent so thick you could only understand about one word out of ten he said...
 
y'know, the proximity of those two comments is kinda..
unfortunate.
 
@JerryCoffin so hard to not be racist
 
@Edward It's kind of cool, it puts interactive overlays on your desktop that show info like time, to-dos, cpu usage, or simple games. I remember showing somebody that it was possible to make a calculator, long before any calculators had been made for it.
 
8:49 PM
I really need more Indian friends
 
@BartekBanachewicz Why?
 
Ell
@wilx so he can say "I'm not racist, I have an indian friend!"
 
@wilx that's ime the best way to fight internalized racism
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz unless they confirm the stereotypes you have
 
Really the only obstacle was that most of the people making overlays were not programmers and didn't realize that you could 'input' by multiplying *10 and adding a value to a variable.
 
8:51 PM
@Ell seriously if your only contact with Indian people is on SO you're in for a huge dissapointment no matter what you expected
@Ell yeah...
 
@Aaron3468 It looks interesting. I might just investigate that.
 
We have Indian or such IT support. They like to call my office line whenever I fill a ticket. The line is noisy and together with their thick accent it is always a fun chat.
 
@BartekBanachewicz If your only contact with any people is on SO, you're in for a huge disappointment.
6
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz lol fair enough
 
One of my favorite calculus professors was a short Russian guy with a very thick accent that took some getting used to.
 
8:53 PM
@JerryCoffin Not sure if that's entirely a compliment but thank you. I should watch that movie soon to find out
 
He was very competent and very patient.
 
@Morwenn IRTA "spice melange sausage". I should go to sleep.
 
@Edward Looking at it, yeah. Honestly, I had nothing against him (but understanding what he said was really difficult).
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes "Spice Melange Sausage" should be a band name.
 
should I implement ellipsis vararg parameters is the question
does anyone use those ever
 
8:55 PM
@BartekBanachewicz You should. No question!
 
@Aaron3468 If it had been serious at all, it would have been...well, I dunno what it would have been. As-is, it's nothing except free association.
 
I'm trying to think up the parser atm
 
@JerryCoffin I understand. Anything that gets in the way of basic communication can impede learning and make things more difficult for all involved.
 
lol, yeah, you're not known for being serious despite how well you can deadpan jokes
 
A friend of mine (non engineering major) went through half a semester before she figured out that "variables" == "wariables". :)
 
8:59 PM
@Edward As I recall, for that class we formed a "study group", which ended up as nearly a "shadow class", with me teaching (working through the text book, a chapter or two ahead of everybody else).
 
paramList = parens $ do
    names <- option [] namelist
    vararg <- isJust <$> optionMaybe (comma >> reserved "...")
hmm this should work
 
@Edward I foresee its selling extremely well!
 
Then maybe you should learn C++? — Borgleader 45 secs ago
 
@Borgleader No, I should probably learn French.
 
frankly I don't know why Lua went the optional vararg route at all
why not provide an empty arg table always
 
9:03 PM
@JerryCoffin "A mix of African rhythms, American pop and multilingual lyrics, 'Spice Melange Sausage's debut album demands several listenings to fully appreciate its richness and depth."
@BartekBanachewicz From the user's view, would that have improved the language?
 
@Edward I guess I must be too literal. I was thinking of meat that would taste good (and turn my eyes blue).
 
@Edward I don't think so actually
it'd take the arg name even if you don't intend it to be used that way
 
@BartekBanachewicz Language design is interesting. Some things make it easier for implementers and harder for users and some things the other way around.
 
@Edward yeah. It gave me a whole new perspective and was one of the reasons why I keep coming back to this project. I also have to give it to Lua designers that you can feel that they thought about the implementers a lot.
some things just naturally yield to you
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz why use monadic style btw?
 
9:07 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, I think so. I'm working on a Lua-based project now.
 
@Edward what's it about?
@Ell there's a return at the end missing. Why not?
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz because it looks like you can just use <$> and <*>
 
@BartekBanachewicz The concept is simple: use Lua to provide a secure application framework for a class of industrial devices.
 
@Ell and why would I prefer that to do? ;)
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz hah sorry
I would prefer it because it requires less
you know, you want to use the thing with the least requirements
 
9:09 PM
to be fair my ancient GHC doesn't have Applicative-Do yet
but still, in case of Parsec that doesn't really bring any value
 
Ell
still
I think it reads better
I think it's good practise too
 
parens $ (,) <$> option [] namelist <*> isJust <$> optionMaybe (comma >> reserved "...")
inb4 "OMG so unreadable"
and probably wrong precedence at some point actually
 
Ell
Idiom brackets look nicer than do notation anyway :P
 
if I had something like <$,>
@Ell never liked those
@Edward makes sense. The separation lua provides is nice for that kind of thing
also hmm zip signature kinda fits
 
your collective faces
 
Ell
9:18 PM
@BartekBanachewicz what are option and optionMaybe?
 
@Ell option is essentially optionEither. Both try to parse the thing, just differ in what they return in case of failure
 
Ell
it's a parsec thing though?
 
Ell
why isn't isJust <$> optionMaybe (comma >> reserved "...") instead option False (comma >> reserved "...") ?
 
@Ell because it won't fit!
it has to have the same type
 
Ell
9:24 PM
hmm
Why are they different? :P
oh wait
 
because reserved "..." doesn't parse into Bool
 
Ell
I see :P
 
also I think that actually putting that into the tuple directly would be confusing
do notation makes it obvious they appear in a certain sequence
 
Ell
I think I meant option False (comma *> reserved "..." <*> pure True)
but I think I'd write a separate function
 
it's all moot because the lexer rejects it :P
oh right optional comma
hmm no
that's actually failing earlier
anyway the comma has to depend on the existence of those names
 
Xeo
9:34 PM
@Mysticial What's on that list, currently?
 
@Xeo I need to check my download folder. I don't remember.
 
Why do you want "the first string in the commaSep expr parsed as identifier whilst all subsequent strings should be strings only"? You're parsing your Query as an expr with commaSep expr and then trying to parse it again with char ','>> theQuery. If you want to parse the Query completely separately rather than as an expr, it's tricky, because commaSep will eat the , then fail on the next input. If that's really what you need (and I don't think it is because you already have Query in your AST anyway) then you'd need a less optimistic commaSep variant. — AndrewC Nov 25 '12 at 22:18
ah
 
I still haven't started watching anything from this season yet. Just a folder full of ep1's.
 
Xeo
haha
 
Not much time this week or the next. Dad's in town this week with a car. So a lot of shopping and shit to get my new place into a more livable condition.
Including replacing all those useless phone jacks with Ethernet ones.
Spent all of last night doing this:
 
Ell
9:42 PM
I hate doing cat cables :V
or whatever they're called
 
Ell
@EtiennedeMartel just offer to pay moving expenses for them all
as a Canadian citizen, you have the power to do that right?
 
@Ell When I got the place, there was a single Ethernet jack in the living room. I didn't want to route cables all over the place, so I borrowed a friend's wireless network thingamajiggy to get internet in the computer room. Now that my dad is here, (who's much better with hands on electronics), I'm able to open up the telecom box, rewire everything, throw a switch in there, and do away with the wireless shit.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Seems more sensible than Brexit, anyway. :-)
 
@Ell This article isn't talking about moving the Scots themselves, but about making Scotland a new Canadian province.
 
Ell
9:50 PM
I was just kidding :3
 
@JerryCoffin Just curious, when you moved to California, did you get a lan/phone line in your house? Or is it cellphone only?
 
nwp
10:25 PM
@BoundaryImposition sounds way off, at least the one I can somewhat judge
would not recommend
 
11:09 PM
@Mysticial Make sure you're ready for 10G (it has a different number of wires). Recently had a problem where my 10G router refused to connect. When I plugged in my laptop everything worked. Turns out the 10G cable was damaged but still gave 1G. Amazon is selling "Cat7" for like $10 bucks.
Also power over Ethernet requires a different number of wires, etc.
 
@Mikhail I can't. The building was only wired up with cat5e. So unless I tear down the walls, I can't get 10gbit.
I can do 10gb locally within each room since I have my own switches. But not across rooms unless I run my own cables.
I've been buying cat6 for the past 10 years. But I still have yet to have any 10gbit-capable hardware.
 
10GB is life changing, mostly because you learn that most file management software is poorly designed.
10G is getting pretty cheap, the cards are like $200
 
@nwp that doesn't sound "way off" to me
 
Turns out that if you name your chromecasts/group the same name as a song on Spotify it creates an infinite command loop. @internetofshit
wut
 
All my heavy-weight computers reside in a single room where I run my own network. The only other place I need internet is the living room where I stream Anime to the living room TV. So no need for 10gbit. Currently, that's actually doable over wireless.
 
11:14 PM
So, if you're replacing phone jacks replace them with Cat7
 
@Mikhail What's the point when the cables in the walls are only cat5e?
I'm not tearing down my walls.
 
Would you in 5 years?
 
I'd have to be crazy for pay tens of thousands (USD) to redo the walls in my unit just for 10gbit. If I need it that much, I'll just run cables internally with wall mounts.
If I ever get the point where I can splurge like that, I'd rather be buying a better unit.
 
@Borgleader :D
 
11:21 PM
@Mikhail hmm:
The cables in the walls do have a white string in them.
Maybe they're actually cat6. I was told they were cat5e.
 
Most cables nowadays are cat6, and I'm tempted to think that's because it's backwards compatible with cat5 protocols too.
I don't remember exactly why, but a friend of mine was explaining why they're used more often than cat5 now, even for phone cabling
 
From personal experience each pair needs to be shielded, and if the shield breaks you might loose the 10G ability. 29og5q1rr22p4adpq4ox4dtl.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/…
 
I'm currently using cat5e keystones. If and when I want 10gbit through the walls, I'll just replace them with cat6 keystones if they become a problem. That's easy to do.
cat5e keystone:
cat6:
 
Xeo
user image
16
 
@Mikhail Depends on the length. Over short distances you can get away without any extra shielding. The twists help reduce crosstalk, but aren't perfect
 
11:28 PM
I can't see the fucking difference.
 
The difference is the label and an extra few millimeters of copper trace to the contacts.
 
Basically, if the router isn't happy it will refused to do 10G and then you're going to be sad. Also high packet loss.
 
I miss Cat
 
He tells us we're bad on Dischorse regurarly
I'd miss him too were I to leave
 
@Aaron3468 Yeah, the cat5e keystones that I have use a u-shaped blade to cut into the cable. So the contact is only the tip of the blade x 2.
cat7 would probably require a soldering iron.
Holy shit. Okay, cat7 keystones don't need soldering irons. But they are nevertheless impressive.
 
11:45 PM
Now install 4 jacks for bonding and get 40G, then you pin 8 of your 64 CPU cores to the Ethernet stack. (I know a hospital that does this for their slide scanning instruments)
 
did Cat get banned too
 
@Mysticial what do the cables themselves say?
 
@thecoshman I tried looking for the labels "5e" and "6" on the cables themselves, but I didn't find it.
I'll need to look up the other numbers.
 
that's strange
iirc cat6 cable is more or less the same as cat5 but slightly tighter specifications
depending on what the runs are like in the house, you might be able to use the old cables to pull through new ones
 
@thecoshman Definitely not. There's a lot of distance between the jacks and the telecom box. And definitely multiple turns.
 
11:54 PM
@BoundaryImposition pretty sure he just left it for discord because he could interact with Lounge without SO once it was established
 
I'm pretty sure those are cat6 cables. If not, I can live with 1Gbit since all my "heavy" computers are in one room where I wire my own network.
 
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