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00:00 - 15:0015:00 - 00:00

15:02
@R.MartinhoFernandes At one time, there was (an attempt at) a system of government where they created councils of experts to make decisions about aspects of the country's governance. That didn't work out particularly well either. (In case it's not obvious, a hint: the Russian word for "council" is usually rendered in Latin alphabets as "Soviet").
In fairness, the problem there was probably less with the general idea than with the execution though (especially, the execution of anybody who disagreed with the chairman of the "supreme council").
@JerryCoffin Was about to say that.
Does VC++ have an unreasonable short limit on macro names?
@JerryCoffin I think the problem is with the general idea. I don't think it can be executed well.
I am not a fan of unelected bureaucrats getting a lot of power.
@caps The idea I mentioned did not involve unelected officials.
In fact, it was exactly about me wanting to elect specific officials for specific aspects of policy.
Ah, like there are people who run for an agricultural board, people who run for a foreign issues board, etc. and you vote for them independently.
So you can hate the foreign policies of the guy who understands agriculture and still vote for him.
15:10
@R.MartinhoFernandes I could dig that.
It's particularly infuriating because you do see parties sort of specialising in specific areas to get votes (the most obvious example being "green" parties). It just happens that the system forces you to make an all-or-nothing choice.
@R.MartinhoFernandes you mean when they stray off the wider party line?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Not to my knowledge, but I can't say I've ever put it to the test.
I think it's perfectly sensible that one would want the greens to have more power on environmental policy and the pirates to have more power on digital stuff policy.
@caps More to the point, people who are governing can specialize enough that they actually know something about what they're doing. As it stands now, most representatives have no grasp at all of what's really at issue in most things they vote about. The consequence is exactly what you said you don't want: laws stay extremely general, and most of the real governance is left to unelected bureaucrats.
15:17
@JerryCoffin I'm doing this thing: stackoverflow.com/a/4928145/46642, and I just realized that both the prefix and the suffix have to be namespaced, which can lead to extra long names.
So the example there would have to be NS_F_IMPL_ and NS_F_IMPL_NS_DOUBLE.
@LucDanton What's the wider party line? The "left-right spectrum"?
@Borgleader: The heap is an implementation detail, that is not mandated by the C++ standard. An implementation can choose to implement the freestore any way it sees fit. If you don't care about getting the terminology right, move on, there's nothing to be seen. It's a bit unnerving to read comments along the lines of "Yeah, it is wrong. We know, but we don't really care, because others get it wrong, too...". — IInspectable 10 mins ago
@R.MartinhoFernandes like the party supports free ice cream on Sundays, but the more local branches don’t emphasise it or only for Saturdays
sigh it was a pointless distinction that would have confused OP (most likely)
most people know what a heap is, freestore not so much
P.S: I think I found LRiO #2
I thought 'specific areas' was used in a geographical sense
@Borgleader lol arguing about C++ terminology on non- questions
15:22
@LucDanton Oh, unintended ambiguity. Not geographical, no.
I also see value in local representatives, but I haven't given it as much thought so I'm purposedly ignoring it here.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Hmm...the standard recommends 1024. Their page of deviations in limits doesn't mention macro length, so we'd hope it was at least 1024, but as I said, I've never checked (and never done something like this that might push the limits either).
especially a shitty question
@JerryCoffin 1024 is within my boundaries for now, I guess.
Especially because I'm not sure about what I want "local" to mean.
user784668
@Borgleader lol that dude, heap is literally a synonym for freestore.
Not in C++ standard
but no one involved in that question cares about C++ standard
15:28
@Borgleader Was #1 banned or something?
Ven
Ven
I only care about you.
@milleniumbug But there it isn't a thing, so not relevant.
It's not like it means something different in the standard.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Good point
@Ven :3
user784668
@milleniumbug The C++ standard contains total shit like C++, so
@Fanael vOv
15:29
@milleniumbug The standard uses it to differentiate between "memory obtained via malloc/calloc/realloc" and "memory obtained via "operator new", but that's about it. For the question at hand, the distinction is utterly irrelevant".
Outside the standard, it's pretty much as @Fanael said.
@JerryCoffin Used to?
@JerryCoffin One of many problems with, at least, the American system.
Europe seems to have more parties competing at once, which I think is a big win for them.
tbh one would need to check C standard too
All current uses of "heap" in the standard exist in a different context (that of data structures).
whether they do or don't use the term
15:31
@milleniumbug Good point.
user784668
@milleniumbug The word doesn't occur there.
nwp
nwp
@Telkitty as if they didn't know that traffic costs money
@Borgleader Also, for someone so worried about getting the terminology right, they should use "free store", as there's no such thing as "freestore".
user784668
@milleniumbug malloc & co. are said to allocate some memory and that's it, no kind of free store or heap or whatever is mentioned.
15:33
@caps More parties allows parties to take more nuanced stances, and gives a person a better chance of finding a party whose overall stance corresponds more closely to their own. That, however, doesn't change the fact that all representatives have roughly equal voices on bills related to all sorts of unrelated subjects in their legislature/parliament/whatever.
The standard also only seems to "mandate" five two things and to "not mandate" three: google.com/#q=mandate+site%3Aeel.is. The free store isn't one of them :P
@R.MartinhoFernandes Fair enough.
@JerryCoffin Yep. A vote is carte blanche for decisions on all matters past, present, and future.
user784668
Anyway, it's still a fucking heap and fuck anyone who says it's not.
@Fanael I'm afraid I must disagree with that position. First, I'm married. Second, even when I was single, I like to think I was more selective than that.
user784668
15:38
@JerryCoffin Third, you're so old nobody would like to fuck you.
user784668
I mean, you're over 9000 years old, so you're older than the Earth.
@Fanael Fortunately for me, that's not quite true.
nwp
nwp
@Fanael don't be mean. Jerry is the youngest fossil here.
@nwp He can't help being mean, any more than you can help being median.
user784668
@nwp I prefer git to fossil.
15:40
The heap is not "not mandated" by the C++ standard. There are only three things not mandated by the C++ standard (google.com/#q=mandate+site%3Aeel.is), and all of them are exceptions. Also, the standard does not make use of the term "freestore" (google.com/#q="freestore"+site%3Aeel.is). This message is approved by me, someone who cares about getting the terminology right. — R. Martinho Fernandes 18 secs ago
user784668
@R.MartinhoFernandes Did you just outpedant them?
nails it
@milleniumbug It doesn't suggest anything here.
~~Google~~
15:49
Question for you peeps.
Is it good C++ style to accept std::function as a parameter?
user784668
@EtiennedeMartel Maybe.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Hehe, thanks for the backup.
@milleniumbug ikr... seriously
@Borgleader It's funny cause he could have made a stronger point by saying that the standard actually does use the term "heap" and when it does so it means something else.
As is, their argument is just "[I think] I am a pedant; you're not."
user784668
@R.MartinhoFernandes So basically Tomalak?
user784668
15:59
Is there a C++17 draft PDF available?
@EtiennedeMartel It's generally better to write a function template that accepts an F (or whatever name you prefer to use) as its parameter. The obvious exception to that is virtual functions. Since they can't be templates, nearly the only available choice is to accept an std::function (or similar).
@JerryCoffin But why is that better? Don't get me wrong, I'd love to. It's just that I'm gonna have to back that up with arguments when the code review comes.
user784668
@EtiennedeMartel You avoid the overhead of std::function, which is probably trivial for most code.
@EtiennedeMartel Unless you're storing the argument, std::function gives you potential overhead for little to no benefit.
I'm storing that argument in a std::function.
user784668
16:02
@R.MartinhoFernandes But there's the benefit of the function no longer being a template and thus not having to be in the header.
@EtiennedeMartel I'm assuming "usage beyond the function scope" (e.g. storing as a class member) or "storing in a container"
@milleniumbug Yep. Exactly.
@EtiennedeMartel If you're storing it in an std::function anyway, it probably doesn't make much difference. Personally, I still prefer to use a template, but I can't point to any objective support for doing so.
user784668
@EtiennedeMartel It's fine in this case.
user784668
Wait what
user784668
16:06
Is void (&)() a legal type?
a reference to a function?
yep, I think so
@Fanael Looks reasonable (though you might want to use std::reference_wrapper instead).
user784668
@JerryCoffin I don't use it, I just got it from passing the wrong thing to add_reference.
user784668
Actually, let's get rid of that legacy add_reference thing.
user784668
It totally should be std::add_lvalue_reference.
16:19
This will be the richest feature release ever (out of two :P).
@R.MartinhoFernandes Except it's still a beta, not actually a release. :-)
user784668
@R.MartinhoFernandes Does nonius work on Hell++, where std::chrono::high_resolution_clock::is_steady is false?
@Fanael There is now a hook to replace the default clock.
(It has actually always been there, but now it's officially documented)
nonius.io/devel/advanced#custom-entry-point Just call nonius::go with an appropriate clock.
I guess I could add a static assertion, though.
user784668
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's nice.
user784668
@R.MartinhoFernandes Not that it matters too much, as on most implementations even the steady_clock is not really steady despite claiming to be so.
16:29
@Fanael Yeah. It's of very little benefit except for pedantry-compliance.
Also, seems I broke nonius.io/v1.1 when trying to add nonius.io/v1.2.
@Fanael Nothing can (probably) ever hope to fully comply with the requirements of steady_clock. Even if you were directly connected to a large bank of atomic clocks, you'd still only get "...advance at a steady rate relative to real time" (plus or minus some minuscule percentage).
The standard does not define "real time", though :P
user784668
@R.MartinhoFernandes It doesn't define "sum" either, but we still expect the built-in operator+ to do what everyone expects it to do.
@R.MartinhoFernandes True--I suppose (for one example) you could sort of claim that if you were in the US and kept your clock perfectly synchronized with the US Naval Observatory, that'd be "perfect", because US law says that's what defines real time (not unique to the US, of course--I just happen to know the right names here).
16:36
@Fanael "Real time" is not as well-defined as "sum".
user784668
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yes, but now you're applying common sense to pedantry.
Xeo
Xeo
Oh sweet.
We wanted to update to 4.12 sometime next week or the week after, might as well skip straight to 4.13
Wait, its nonius.io/v1.1 that works, but nonius.io/v1.1 doesn't. Shit.
Ok, fixed.
@R.MartinhoFernandes ...and Chat renders both without the trailing slash, just to add to the confusion.
Now my FF has cached bad redirects, but it works on other browsers.
Or in porn mode.
Good.
user784668
16:51
Fuck the retard who wrote that fucking undocumented piece of shit.
user784668
Oh wait, that was me.
2
@EtiennedeMartel If the parameter is for a constructor.
Really (I think someone else already said this) if you're going to be storing the parameter in std::function, just make the parameter be std::function
Unless you want to hide that as an implementation detail. :shrug:
@R.MartinhoFernandes Couple of minor points. 1) on the web page, you show the include as "nonius.h++", but in the example code you use <nonius.h++>. Probably better to be uniform. 2) The examples use <nonius.h++>, but that includes nonius/..., so you need both ~/nonius/include and ~nonius/inlcude/nonius available to the compiler for them to compile. Again, probably better to use one or the other uniformly (e.g. examples change to: #include <nonius/nonius.h++>).
17:11
Fair point on #1, but #2 isn't an issue with the distribution single-header.
All the #include <nonius/...> lines disappear after the build.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Hmm...perhaps I grabbed the wrong thing?
Should get it from the release zip.
@R.MartinhoFernandes The only links I see on the releases page are to the source code (.zip or .tar.gz).
Oh shit, forgot that.
Will have to fix later. On the train now, and away from a box with dev tools until late.
I need to run ninja dist and upload the zip.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I guess I'll check back later.
17:19
What an idiot.
I have a few future release statements pre-written and got convinced I just needed to press publish, which I clearly can't.
nwp
nwp
Scenario: You are part of a NASA team in charge of sending a rocket to mars. The tip of the rocket is an antenna. Your coworker added a little parachute that, in case the rocket explodes on launch, will (probably) safely float the antenna back to earth.
nwp
nwp
My argument is that if the rocket explodes the project is a complete failure and saving the antenna will not actually help.
is there a fallacy in there or a name for that?
@R.MartinhoFernandes ok, this is spooky, I swear I had nothing to do with that
If you replace "antenna" with something like "black box", it makes more sense.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Doesn't look like there are any .ninja files in the source archive either, so building it myself could be a bit painful.
@nwp What's missing here isn't really logic, but a sense of proportion.
You need Python
oh cool, nonius website has a favicon now
Had for a while
@R.MartinhoFernandes Have Python, but it says there's no module named vallus (and I can't argue much--the only vallus (I see is an empty directory).
17:27
Clone recursive.
nwp
nwp
@R.MartinhoFernandes the point is that by the time the safety feature activates the whole thing has catastrophically and irrecoverably failed and therefore the safety feature is pointless, but somehow the argument that it adds value never dies
Or init submodules, etc
@nwp Well, maybe you can save a million $$ antenna and reuse it on the next one?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Grabbed source zip. I'll try cloning...
@nwp I'd say it's a strawman because your opponent's argument assumes the safety will be implemented to work usefully and you assume it will be implemented to work uselessly.
nwp
nwp
17:28
@caps my point is that if you make a billion dollar project you don't plan to save a million dollar antenna in case it fails
(Whether it is possible to implement it usefully is a different argument in and of itself and perhaps something you could bring up instead)
it’s like a reverse sunken cost fallacy on your part
@nwp :shrug:
@nwp if it's a million dollar black box you can use it to make a safer design next.
@JerryCoffin sadly the source zip is automatically added by GitHub and I have no control over it :(
@R.MartinhoFernandes Probably want to remove the link(s) to it from your page though.
17:32
I should add that you need to clone recursive to the contributor guide
@R.MartinhoFernandes Couldn't hurt...
I just got into the habit of doing recursive clone by default.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah--if I'd started by cloning the repo, I probably would have too, but the zip/gzip file preclude that. Managed to finally build an example and get a result...
nwp
nwp
@R.MartinhoFernandes I had that and decided that writing "clone + submodule init + submodule update" is better because it works after cloning
though you could just blame people and say RTFM, but I think small little usability features like this make the difference between good and great
nwp
nwp
18:09
how come there are alternatives to trump and hillary, yet they don't get covered and don't seem to get considered by most americans?
user406009
18:24
@nwp Because voting for them is wasting your vote.
nwp
nwp
hillary will win anyways, no matter who you vote for it will be wasted
user406009
Also, those third parties are usually crazy in certain ways.
user406009
@nwp Not quite certain yet.
user406009
People also thought Brexit would lose.
user406009
And so people protest voted.
user406009
18:26
And look how well that turned out.
nwp
nwp
well, to me it looks like dumb vs evil vs reasonable, and people argue for voting for evil because dumb is dumb or for dumb because evil is evil, and voting for reasonable is a waste of a vote because it is certain evil or dumb will win and you want to have a say in which it will be
but maybe I'm just missing the arguments that go beyond "look at how terrible the other candidate is" and people actually think voting for hillary or trump is a good thing
user406009
@nwp The time to fight for principles is in the primaries. In the general election, you just have to chose the better of two evils.
19:05
@nwp There are people in my facebook feed in all 5 of those camps. :p
* Trump is good
* Hillary is good
* Trump is not as bad as Hillary
* Hillary is not as bad as Trump
* Both major candidates are unconscionable, I will vote 3rd party / won't vote
I am in the 5th camp.
> >Trump is good
nice meme
user406009
@набиячлэвэли Well, depending on your needs, he might be better than Hillary. For instance, if you work in the coal industry, it is in your best interest to vote for Trump.
@набиячлэвэли They're both so bad. Some of the ways they are bad are similar, and some are very different.
user406009
At least in the financial sense.
I think Hillary is actually competent at getting stuff done in Government. In a way, that makes her worse than Trump, because I think she could actually accomplish the bad things she wants to do, while Trump is more likely to be a failure at actually implementing his awful policies.
But there's a lot more in the equation than just that.
19:30
Is there any reason to think Hillary will be different than most democrat presidents we've had in the past?
@caps The actual implementation details would be carried out but the people behind them, though. Not them per se. They are basically just there to provide a face for a team of people.
@StackedCrooked I think she will be more progressive than Obama was, who is more progressive than Bill was...
@Shoe Sure, but they set the tone and they pick out that team of people
In this day and age, the President always has agendas, and he actively works and uses whatever power (and influence) she has to achieve those agendas. That power and influence is considerably greater as a President than as a ran-for-President-and-didn't-make-it
Of course, Trump and Hillary both have much more power and influence right his minute than myself or probably anyone else I'm acquainted with.
But if they were to become President that power would increase dramatically.
I think Hillary is way more powerful than Trump.
nwp
nwp
19:58
oh noes, I was infected too, I'm green now :(
I should screenshoot my gravatar and set it as my profile picture...
Yep, can't be sure about these pixels nowadays
nwp
nwp
you are right. I can upload a profile pic, but it doesn't actually do anything -.-
damn them volatile disobedient pixels
Ven
Ven
chat is cached
nwp
nwp
I went to porn mode on my profile and everything
20:21
Hello, Cruel World!
How's it going?
pretty well
got my salary
A paycheck is always good.
Did you spend it all yet?
fortunately, no
gotta save something for later
20:35
pay day is next week for me. Gotta make it until then.
user1804599
20:48
@Bartek I need your opinion
user1804599
wait where is Bartek?
@rightfold Nowhere. Not in the lounge, not in Discord, either.
user1804599
:(
21:05
~Bartek
nwp
nwp
Kretab disappeared at the same time... what could this mean?
Trolls are disappearing. Uh oh.
21:43
@rightfold Are you driving a car while chatting?
sbi
sbi
21:58
Good evening.
Uh oh, this room seems dead.
Anyone here?
@sbi No. I am here, not there.
Nobody's home
sbi
sbi
22:17
@wilx That's neither here nor there.
@StackedCrooked Saw that article. I basically went from WTF, to holy shit.
sbi
sbi
22:37
That's about a week old, isn't it?
@sbi Yes. We're testing patience levels in primates
sbi
sbi
@sehe You damn polarbear wouldn't know what a primate is while you ate one!
6
@nwp You missed another rename
@sbi nom nom nom
@sbi He would, however, know what the primate ate just before he ate it.
Is there a way in C++14 to have an integral template parameter that is any type that is an integer?
e.g.
template<bool bValue, class Enable = void>
struct compile_time_if
{
	static constexpr auto evaluate() -> bool
	{
		return bValue;
	}
};

template<auto intValue, typename std::enable_if_t<std::is_integral<decltype(intValue)>::value>>
struct compile_time_if
{
	static constexpr auto evaluate() -> bool
	{
		return intValue != 0;
	}
};
sbi
sbi
22:49
@JerryCoffin Yeah, for a polar bear that would be quite clever already.
auto in a template sounds interesting =)
@CaptainGiraffe I'm pretty sure it is a C++17 feature.
template<auto X>
@CaptainGiraffe A template for building car dealerships: auto<auto> auto() -> auto;
2
I bet std::is_integral returns true for bool, so I would probably need to also check !std::is_same<bool, bool>::value
22:53
@JerryCoffin Unfunny comment was redacted.
Completely unrelated question: does anyone know how to find out which file in a VS solution is including a system file that is emitting warnings?
@CaptainGiraffe You were obviously supposed to throw in something about car vs. cdr.
sbi
sbi
@JerryCoffin Haha!
If you want to read a tale how I almost bricked a phone (again!) start reading here.
I hate these.
in Android Enthusiasts on The Stack Exchange Network Chat, 4 mins ago, by sbi
This must have been the third or fourth time I was doing this, and it never ever worked the way those step-by-step instructions promised.
@JerryCoffin If I was that clever I would write a book on how clever I am.
sbi
sbi
@R.MartinhoFernandes Hey, you should have moved to Pankow long ago. Then you could vote for my friends this month.
23:08
@sbi Did the guy there help or hinder you in the near-bricking?
sbi
sbi
@caps (Why don't you click on the link and find out?) The only one there didn't know anything about Samsung phones.
@sehe I sent Scott a mail with a link to this and got a "LOL!" back. I think this counts as a win for you.
23:20
@caps go with something like std::integral_constant
sbi
sbi
Anyway, good night!
@sbi G'night.
23:50
hello
how is everyone?
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