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12:35 AM
 
bikeshed for unused function parameters: blah_type number_of_legs [[maybe_unused]] vs blah_type /*number_of_legs*/
I guess there’s [[maybe_unused]] blah_type number_of_legs, too
 
@Shoe One of us, one of us. And yeah, it's not so great with GUI yet, but getting there. There's a reasonably good Qt binding already, so it's approximately equal to competitors if you use that :)
 
#define UNUSED_PARAMETER(x) static_cast<void>(x); __pragma_or_whatever_it_was__((poison)) x;
 
@milleniumbug that’s not how function parameters work
 
...?
 
12:43 AM
@milleniumbug that sort of stuff
 
I wonder if that would substitute successfully if void foo(UNUSED_PARAMETER(x)) { ... } were declared
 
I’ve always used comments pre-maybe_unused and I don’t really feel like changing
 
@Aaron3468 Having it inside the body is the point
 
also the thought occurs that an actual [[unused]] with no maybe_ about it would be the actual equivalent. who knows, maybe for the next next standard
@milleniumbug I consider that a misfeature cos if you start using the parameter then those lines are useless, but nothing warns you if you forget to remove them
that’s me being really strict though
 
yes, that's why you'd want to poison the names in the scope
honestly the not-naming the parameter seems the best, but it feels a bit esoteric
 
12:53 AM
I’m not familiar with pragmas in macro expansions, don’t you need a linebreak?
 
wtb void f(int _);
 
@milleniumbug excuse 0: you’d break existing code!
excuse 1: let’s wait until we have pattern matching!
 
@LucDanton yes, sadly
 
that last one really has me rolling my eyes, I’m sick of it
@milleniumbug I’mma give it a try
 
alternatively void f(int /* UNNAMED */); which is a variation of your idea, but it's explicit in its purpose
 
12:58 AM
in my example I gave a generic name cos usually it’s an overload set
certain overloads use the parameter, so it has a (hopefully) helpful name; some don’t, so it’s commented out
if no overload would be using the parameter, then backward-compatibility aside I would have no need for that parameter
 
So why have unused parameters? To pass around one set/tuple of values? Objects/data structures cover that use case. A compiler warning about them, and potentially an ignore data syntax like int _ seem to be the only useful propositions
 
@Aaron3468 suppose you write an operator<< overload for a type, which just so happens to have a simple string repr (e.g. <function>) or something
 
I think the issue is that unused parameters are very ambiguous; the use case varies so much that it's similar to having a null in a language. It can be abused very easily and means that there will be inconsistencies in how libraries use it
 
the signature is fixed (i.e. std::ostream& operator<<(std::ostream& os, your_thing_here const& im_a_parameter);), yet this one time you don’t need to use im_a_parameter
@Aaron3468 what is it ambiguous with?
@milleniumbug rip the dream
even putting that aside, I question the approach
I wouldn’t be buried in this shit if Boost.Test weren’t terrible ._.
 
Ah, so for backwards-compatibility with code. Then the drop syntax of _ is a reasonable solution. Unused parameter can mean either that you won't be using the data (dropping it), or it may indicate that it requires data which will be used, but isn't currently implemented. (potentially passing it to another function in a pipeline when it is). In either case, pre-existing options allow parameters to be unused: naming, but not using; or passing an object and using only the relevant fields.
 
1:08 AM
no, the situation is the one that doesn’t have to do with backwards compatibility
the backwards compatibility scenario is that one function that used to need a parameter now doesn’t, but you don’t remove it from the signature so as to not break callers. you simply cease to use the parameter in the implementation
are you saying that if it weren’t for backwards compatibility, you would be using a unary operator<< overload?
 
What I mean is: std::ostream& operator<<(std::ostream& os, your_thing_here const& param) { //ignore param in body }. I could be wrong, but I''m not sure why this is a bad solution
 
your periodic Vlad update
9
 
@jaggedSpire LOL, he really doesnt get the memo... (neither does SO actually)
 
@Aaron3468 just to be sure: this whole topic only matters to those of us that bother with -Wunused-parameter or equivalent
unless I’m mistaken it’s not the most popular of warnings tbh
 
1:13 AM
coz vlad is loungers private entertainer
 
@Borgleader it's really remarkable
especially since we're remarking on it now :V
 
@LucDanton It's a warning. Ignore and/or suppress at leisure unless the job requires that code compile with no warnings. If that's the case, I can see the appeal of the ability to suppress the compiler warning for specific parameters, in which case I think int _ would be a great signal that 'I know I'm not using this parameter, so please don't warn'
 
the goal of the warning is to catch accidental unused parameters though
that’s the whole premise
so turning it off or ignoring it wholesale is not an option
 
@jaggedSpire I'm surprised his suspensions are still so short. He's been suspended so many times already. The longest I recall was 3 months.
 
And the goal of unused parameters is to retain the same declaration; we've got two conflicting interests and clearly there needs to be a signal the programmer can use to say "I know about this and it is intended".
 
1:18 AM
@Aaron3468 yeah sorry; we have the premise of wanting to catch accidentally unused parameters, and now we need a signal for purposefully unused parameters
for both compilers and hoomans
 
@Mysticial I just assumed they'd double like chat bans, apparently not
 
does anyone have a list of reasons on why vlad was banned in the past?
 
@LucDanton Ideally, signalling this would be a part of naming the parameter -- because the best documentation is the code itself. ^^; It's natural that there'll be false positive and false negatives, but it would allow skilled programmers to be explicit (and reap the benefits of communicating with the compiler). Unskilled programmers would be at leisure to not know about, nor care about the syntax
 
@jaggedSpire ban expansion rate should be 1.5× anyway
@Aaron3468 what the fuck man
even by your standards
 
1:21 AM
I’ll keep using comments
 
@LucDanton for ideal reallocation behavior?
 
@jaggedSpire ya got it :þ
 
@LucDanton I'm so proud of myself
found this going through search for Vlad bans
Jan 11 '14 at 17:13, by Lightness Races in Orbit
@@LightnessRacesinOrbit "Are there any advanced data structures involved? Nope, not at all" You are using advanced data structure named std::vector. — Vlad from Moscow 4 mins ago
 
@LucDanton Probably for the best. Compiler warnings are not requirements and anybody who decides they are should raise eybrows for chasing compiler brownie points that don't matter
 
@Telkitty I think they delete his comments when he goes off the rails in an externally-visible way
 
1:23 AM
@Aaron3468 I think you’ve got the whole situation wrong
also you are using compilers wrong
 
pretty sure I've heard the voting irregularity bans are for revenge downvotes
 
What do you mean? Compilation errors are forbidden by specification, compilation warnings help identify potentially poor code, and compiler macros like #pragma modify compiler behaviour when you need explicit/consistent compiler behaviour for a section of code.
 
Aug 31 '12 at 22:52, by sehe
> (void)_;
oh man, that’s fun cc @milleniumbug
@Aaron3468 okay I see where you are coming from, and I guess that’s fair enough since it’s been a while since that sort of stuff was discussed in the Lounge and you weren’t around then
in JavaScript, Nov 13 '13 at 16:41, by R. Martinho Fernandes
@FlorianMargaine Some diagnostics inevitably require a human to make a decision about that. But yes, most things considered "warnings", at least by C++ compilers, should really be errors.
that’s a good starting point, and I guess this as well
Jan 17 '12 at 17:23, by R. Martinho Fernandes
MSVC is good at convincing people that warnings are useless.
@Aaron3468 the short of it is that the compiler will only ever report about things I care about
 
Ah, okay, I see now. C++ compilers are inconsistent about warnings and errors, so depending on the compiler some warning become errors, and some errors become warnings. (and of course sometimes you don't want to be yelled at for code that shouldn't raise any eyebrows).
The more I become acquainted with C++, the more I realize it's painted itself into a corner with poor decisions and compliance Q.Q
 
1:38 AM
isn't it fun?
 
GCC and Clang are flexible enough that you can set them to do exactly what you want, which is what I’ve done
well, 'exactly' may be optimistic
 
for sufficiently insane/masochistic definitions of fun
 
you can treat warnings as errors on all platforms
 
for my money and (limited) experience with other language compilers (and linters for that matter), it’s the same everywhere
 
@LucDanton You've reached mutual compromise with your compilers :)
 
1:39 AM
@Aaron3468 what I’ve done is read the manual
 
@johnathon It's poor style, but yes, many compilers allow it and many workplaces require it as far as I'm aware
 
1. set warnings to error
2. enable /W4 on msvc
3. RIP
 
@Aaron3468 for release builds , it's probably a good idea if your product warrants such stringent quality needs. If a bug you write could result in the loss of life id' say that's a very good reason to adopt such a strategy. I've never had to use it in production code. shruggs
 
IIRC there's a "no virtual destructor in polymorphic base class" warning in <functional> for msvc, that you hit on /W4
 
@LucDanton VC++ does it somewhat differently, but is fairly flexible as well. It has a #pragma warn that lets you enable or disable any warning you want, or tie any warning to any of 4 warning levels (which you then set on the command line).
 
1:43 AM
@LucDanton I think that's good policy. The only downside is that your code now has an implicit dependency on the compiler's behaviour. Not that it didn't before, but it's more likely to blow up on any other compiler version than if it relied on language semantics. (e.g, some MSVC #pragma statements are not compatible with other compilers and one codebase required it) It's a trade-off and the likelihood of your code breaking anytime within its lifetime is low enough that it's not a wrong tradeoff
 
you can have more than one way to build your code
 
@JerryCoffin you can do that on gcc with pragma's as well, the syntax is different though and i don't recall off the top of my head what it is lol
 
what if you have a 'just-riiiight' development build and a 'I don't care' build for shipped code
 
lol
 
lol
 
1:45 AM
@Aaron3468 really, do what you want. the compiler is a tool, and everything is up to you as the dev
 
What's your application space luc ?
 
@LucDanton Of course--I'd love to get a warning if I write a program that won't halt, but I seem to recall some hint at that being a somewhat difficult thing to guarantee... :-)
 
lol
 
In the end, the issue is circular dependencies; you can't have software without making some assumptions about hardware and vice versa. In the same way, you can't have source without making assumptions about the compiler and vice versa
 
@JerryCoffin but by design you write programs that have the implicit design of not halting without user interaction all the time
 
1:47 AM
They're stuck together and eventually one of them changes enough that it breaks the other
 
@Aaron3468 I don’t put build instructions in the source. well, obviously that’s a loaded way of using the word 'source', so in a more neutral and explicit way: you also get to choose how your projects are structured
 
@JerryCoffin if you use a gui at all that is
 
@johnathon I don't--in fact, I don't write programs at all. :-)
 
@LucDanton Yeah, I'm just pointing out that when you distribute raw source, you lose build commands that might be the only way to make it compile. A few projects I tried to compile were so old that I had to design new build instructions and/or rewrite the source to make them work again; the assumptions they were developed under no longer existed.
 
@JerryCoffin shruggs all i had to go by was your profile , so what do you do these days?
 
1:51 AM
point being that the source (for some values of 'source') does not have to make assumptions about the compiler if you so desire
the build instructions do
 
btw, sorry if I seem to be arguing. Really I'm just discussing so I can understand how everything relates, just a bit more clearly
 
it’s okay, I’m writing super boring busy work anyway
 
2:04 AM
Ah yes, busy work is everywhere
I'm doing some as well. I'm caught up for my midterms so it's all I really have left to do until then
 
@JerryCoffin don't take this wrong please, but after doing some research on the company you work for I'm rather amazed at how small your revenue is. I was under the entirely false assumption that the bleeding edge tech that you work on would have a lot higher value than manufacturing.
@JerryCoffin Historically my work has been in the automotive and aerospace industries as a supplier to those industries. I've never worked for the OEM's. We (family) was an OEM until the late 70's
@JerryCoffin and that's all i have to draw my view of what revenue should be from. I don't mean it offensively.
 
2:47 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes I’m still thinking about ranges, and I don’t know if you are interested or have the time for it but you might as well be my concept rubber duck: suppose we have ye olde generate range e.g. auto rng = generate([i = 0]() mutable { return i < 15 ? make_optional(i++) : nothing; });
now because we were careful we can 'save' this range (using Andrei terminology) since each copy has a separate iteration state. i.e. auto saved_copy = rng; incr(rng); /* okay: saved_copy not affected */
but interestingly if we start thinking in terms of positions, the only thing we can save is the whole range from start to end
a single-pass range has no other subrange
as it turns out one way to implement group(some_rng) is to save successive, well, groups (e.g. the first group of group({ 3, 3, 3, 4, 5, … }) is { 3, 3, 3 }). maybe not the prettiest way to do it but it has nice properties
that requires the ability to save prefixes, e.g. from position 0 to position 3 (exclusive) in our last example
so now I’m sad because I don’t want concepts and notions to proliferate—so far saveability has been 1 bit of info, but that bit is not enough to express the constraints of group
 
3:07 AM
Hello, Cruel World!
Thanks Code-Apprentice, but your command does not tell what are the files to be pushed. It only tell what are changed. — Lin Ma 7 mins ago
Huh?
 
> error: 'position_t' does not name a type; did you mean 'posix_openpt'?
no I did not, but good try nonetheless
 
3:47 AM
What if it gave you two suggestions?
 
the second one has to be nearly as good
 
you will never succeed if you don't try first ...
 
Hmm, I wonder if the code hints are generated by choosing the top item from an algorithm or is it just some heuristics pulled from the stubble of some neck-beard.
 
oh sorry, the coffee has worn off since some time ago so I misread you
I actually have no clue how many suggestions it can give
 
@johnathon We put our first real product on the market about...2 months ago or so, and it's basically only for test/development work. The first product intended for real production work won't be out until about the end of this year/beginning of next year. Before that, about the only revenue we had was from a couple of fairly small, specialized contracts.
 
 
2 hours later…
5:32 AM
<keepalive signal>
 
Sam
Morning mates!!
 
4pm can hardly be regarded as morning, but anyways ...
 
Sam
6:21 AM
@Telkitty and where are you from?
 
@LucDanton lmao
Did you mean "votez chirac"?
 
well they both contain letters so maybe, right?
 
BTW there was one of your answers covering the wording of Regular but I can't seem to find it
 
I hope it’s that thing because I have no idea what it could be
 
@LucDanton As @Ell put it yesterday on discord "English uses an alphabet, not a set of symbols"
Yes that's it, merci
 
6:23 AM
it’s in my feed cos it was upvoted literally yesterday so you’re lucky
 
Yes that was me
Don't ask me how I lost it
 
ah man I also tend to lose track of things I upvote, that used to appear on the personal activity feed a long, long time ago didn’t it?
 
I need to go
 
your people need you
also your people is a bus
 
stop les champis
 
6:26 AM
ué dsl jviens de faire le compte décalage horaire et ça marche pas
 
Un calage horaire, des calages horaires ?
Très bien je vois que mes jeux de mots font flop
 
jsuis crevé lol
 
Aussi me retire-je.
 
c’est ce qu’elle a dit
 
Ven
6:50 AM
Ou il.
Mell wet.
 
teegrins
 
7:37 AM
@TonyTheLion pineapples!
 
soup with no oooh
 
Today, I shall mostly be crying my way through this god forsaken UI :'(
 
7:46 AM
an interface that responds to tears sure could use some improvement
 
Ven
8:10 AM
No, you'd break someone's workflow.
 
@Ven shudder don't start with workflows :(
 
sup guise
 
Ven
heyo
 
user1804599
8:30 AM
Woordenboek der Nederlandsche Taal (Dutch: Dictionary of the Dutch language, commonly abbreviated WNT) is a dictionary of the Dutch language. The largest monolingual dictionary in the world, it contains between 350,000 to 400,000 entries for Dutch words from 1500 to 1921. The paper edition consists of 43 volumes (including three supplements), almost 50,000 pages. The dictionary was almost 150 years in the making; the first volume was published in 1864, and the final volume was presented to Albert II of Belgium and Beatrix of the Netherlands in 1998. == Background == The WNT follows the formula...
 
user1804599
TIL
 
user1804599
50k page dictionary
 
8:59 AM
Today I will mostly be listening to Anthrax
 
9:17 AM
@LucDanton A shame, I somehow hoped it would work
poison too effective
 
user1804599
@thecoshman I recommend Infant Annihilator.
 
user1804599
 
user1804599
Beautiful typography.
 
@rightfold also good
 
@LucDanton heh, can't silence that one with not-naming the variable
 
9:22 AM
Raised By Owls are good :P
 
user1804599
sick, Infant Annihilator skateboard deck
 
Ell
@PatrickM'Bongo hey you need to quote my correction too :P
 
that error message
 
that UB
 
shush
 
9:32 AM
but yeah, the error message is fun
 
the error message is way funnier
 
user1804599
Absolutely hilarious.
 
9:44 AM
Hm anyone here working at a "big" company that does embedded stuff? Question for you then: Are you forced to use old compilers or old standards of C or C++? e.g. C98/C++98, with C11/C++11 being prohibited, or is it allowed? Or even encouraged?
 
@Griwes The fuck did you even try to do o_o
 
@Griwes mind if I tweet it? Or you do it so I can RT this funny little gem
 
@Morwenn Obviously trying to let the compiler choose what kind of container to use for the array
 
user1804599
lol C++ for embedded systems
 
Whats wrong with C++ in embedded systems?
 
user1804599
9:47 AM
C++
 
doesn't answer the question
just avoiding answering
 
user1804599
Not obligated to.
 
unsupported statements, even without opinion are the most useless
 
@sehe feel free to do that
 
9:50 AM
I already did. With hat tips and all :)
Turns out I'm pretty pushy while at work
"Move Fast And Break Things Delete Tweets"
 
Ah, so that was the notification that I didn't check on my phone. :P
 
@Gizmo afaik embedded stuff hasn't manage to crawl out of the C dark ages. C++ can be used, but it's not that common
 
gist.github.com/griwes/fbbf90d14488c20a4847657eb7c28e95 ...something seems to have exploded with this debian unstable clang update that I installed a moment ago...
 
user1804599
@Shoe Learn a programming language you didn't already know.
 
user1804599
user image
12
 
user1804599
9:58 AM
:(
 
@rightfold they tested it well :D
 
Ven
10:11 AM
@rightfold amazing
 
Ven
10:27 AM
> Enable C-p (hippie-expand) only in vim style (thanks to nixmaniack)
@rightfold try out spacemacs
 
A British Prime Minister, when asked if half the UK population should be considered treasonous, might reasonably be… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/788008052498759681
What the actual fuck.
This is chilling shit
 
@sehe if half the population is considered treasonous in a democratic nation something is horribly wrong
 
Yup. Demagogic rhetorics is frequently very wrong
 
10:44 AM
@Trevir: I never claimed that both [functions] were the same. I've actually said the opposite twice now. — Lightness Races in Orbit 48 secs ago
 
11:00 AM
He hath my upvote.
 
What is up
 
Many things
 
Xeo
Z
 
@sehe wow
 
Yeah. It's rather unexpected British politics would drift THAT far on the slope
To me, at least.
I though British politics had historically been really stable. You know, splendid isolation. Conservatism
 
11:03 AM
Wait
LRiO is alive?
 
Of course
 
:)
I was worried about him for a bit
Glad he's okay
@LightnessRacesinOrbit YOU ARE ALIVE!!!
 
11:17 AM
@NCH51 @bryan_horwath I noticed, and it bothered me, but was so off point I didn't want to seem all Sheldon Cooper. Thanks for going there.
lol
@VermillionAzure He's not here
 
@sehe Well duh lo
I just wanted to ping him and see if he'd come
 
... he's always been there. You're acting weird
 
@sehe Well duh polar bear
 
You keep saying that word as if it helps
 
@sehe it doesn't. I just don't care!!!
 
11:20 AM
Thanks for clearing that up. I'll be in the other room
#drunks
 
@sehe okay
have fun polar bear
 
@ratchetfreak that is basically how trump's base views the rest of the country
 
That constant bear cursing is unbearable
 
@PatrickM'Bongo the problem with this is that there's no control for experimental conditions.
The study falls victim to the placebo effect.
They should have at least kept a traditional placebo group.
 
11:35 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes What'd be a placebo group for a test where you give people placebo?
 
Agreed
 
or make it 4 groups, one with actual pain killer, one with placebo (unknowingly), and one with painkiller (thinking it's placebo) and one knowingly taking the placebo
 
That's the problem with trying to make medicine out of experimental error
@ratchetfreak the third group sounds unethical
Usually placebo groups aren't lied to.
That's unethical.
They're told they may or may not receive treatment.
If you rephrase as "one with painkiller (unknowingly)", that's the same as the first group, I think.
@Griwes I meant one where the participants don't know whether they're taking the drug or the placebo
 
11:59 AM
@sehe thise response sums it up very well :(
 
@Rerito sorry
 
@ratchetfreak The would all have to be told that they may or not be given a pain killer and may or not be lied to abut if they were, and then told which story they are being given. That way they all know from the start what they are signing up for. The only downside is that it is completely done with people having the chance for doubt
@PatrickM'Bongo tl;dr idiots don't know what 'placebos' are
 
user1804599
@Ven no
 
Ven
yess
 
nwp
> We may or may not lie to you. Agreed? Good. Take this placebo. Yes, it is just a placebo without any actual effect. Trust me.
 
12:15 PM
@nwp basically, yes
 
Ven
@rightfold look at our avatars, our avatars are similar
why not spacemacs btw
 
nwp
maybe they have to say "without any chemical effect", because apparently there are other effects in there that do work
 
12:27 PM
@JoachimPileborg Same with one dimensional array in Java — overexchange 2 mins ago
 
@nwp you need to, as much as possible give them all the same information and I don't think that script helps. Some will be primed by "lie" and assume it's a lie. The shorter the script the fewer cognitive biases it will run afoul of.
With that script you'll probably get nocebos.
 
nwp
I'll use this to disprove by authority anything you say. Just need to find a phone book.
 
Also interesting that the authors phrased this with the word "deception". Deception is unethical. Uncertainty is the key.
There's no deception in "some of you will be given a drug; the other will be given sugar pills".
 
nwp
you just need really sweet drugs
 
12:43 PM
And speaking of unethical, that's my main issue with "placebo research". The only actionable things to come from it are unethical. Either we can't harness these biases and therefore it's useless, or we can and that would involve doctors willingly failing to hold the standard of care for patients.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes well the participants should be given the same preamble, explain what the four groups are, and then simple "you are this group"
 
nwp
There is a saying around doctors. "Whoever heals is right." If people can get tricked into having their pain significantly reduced with no side effects doctors will do it. They swing magic wands if it can be proven that it works.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeah, to truly test placebos, you would have to take people who are genuinely sick, think they are getting genuine help, and then give them a placebo
 
@thecoshman The third group relies on deception
 
@nwp but that's not ethical, Doctors can't treat people with 'magic'
 
nwp
12:48 PM
also doctors regularly hurt patients with treatments because the treatment does less damage than the thing they are curing
 
can't/shouldn't
@nwp but when they do this, the patient is aware
There is nothing inherently wrong about known side effects
 
@nwp that's different from ignoring the standard of care.
 
It's like when you get in a taxi, you expect them to take you where you ask them to. you don't want to be worrying that they might start taking shortcuts through shopping malls because it might be faster and they might get away with it
 
nwp
@thecoshman I'd argue the other way. Refusing a working treatment because you feel silly doing it is unethical.
 
You don't want them dropping you off where it suits them and saying "yeah mate, this is your gaf, they just spruced it up a bit"
 
12:50 PM
It's not treatment by definition. That's the point.
 
@nwp That's not arguing the other way, that's arguing something else
I think we'd all agree, it's unethical for a doctor to not use a treatment simply because they don't like it, and it's stupid for patients to refuse for similar reasons.
 
s/placebo effect/effect of no treatment/
 
nwp
@R.MartinhoFernandes If I get cured by non-treatment that is fine by me.
 
@nwp that's how quacks trick people into well, quackery.
 
and this is why I am glad shit like this isn't left to the whim of one person
 
12:52 PM
It's not fine for those that don't get cured by non-treatment.
It's not fine for those who die from treatable illness.
 
nwp
@R.MartinhoFernandes and that is where "provable" comes in
 
@nwp there is also a difference between a doctor doing nothing and you get better and a doctor claiming their magic stones made you better, and then convincing others that their magic stones work and that they should turn away form established practice in favour of these stones
If it's not proven medicane, it's not medicane
 
@nwp it's not provable because the effect is a measure of the experimental conditions.
If you measure out the experimental error, you get zero.
 
nwp
maybe I misread the article, but it seemed to me they did a proper study and a statistically significant effect like with any other treatment
 
They didn't do a proper study. They didn't account for experimental error.
 
12:56 PM
Current status: "Let's move things and breakfast" - bbye GCC 4.6, it's nice not having to worry about your little quirks anymore.
 
nwp
I agree that it is hard to believe and there should be a couple of other places repeating the study, but if they can and manage to apply it on a wide range of patients where the effect can also be measured I'm all for it
 
And most of their subjects were already under other medication, which is a red flag there.
 
nwp
if it was a fluke then oh well, too bad
 
@PatrickM'Bongo you can be proud of me again ^
 
Ven
did I break coliru?
 
12:58 PM
@nwp the point is that the placebo effect is the flukes.
You can't design a study to see how effective experimental error is because if you control for experimental error in that study, you get no study.
 
@Ven well, did you?
 
Ven
it's back \o/
@jaggedSpire hi :3
 
It's just an exercise in seeing how flawed a study can be.
2
 
@Ven hi!
 
nwp
I thought the placebo effect is much more significant than just experimental error and it is also pretty consistent. I would not dismiss all placebo studies as bullshit.
 
Ven
1:01 PM
Spacemacs is really nicely thought-out. Few bugs here and there, but that's mostly on the underlying packages
 
@nwp it is, by definition, experimental error.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes very much so
 
The only reason placebos are added to such studies is to quantify experimental error.
It's not just for kicks.
It's to know how much of the measured effects are due to the drug and how much are unrelated.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes only if you refuse to believe it... the hypothesis is that placebos can work, even when a patient knows they are taking a placebo. How you test that accurately... I don't know. I can't see it being done double blind
 
nwp
@R.MartinhoFernandes Then they are talking about something else. They are not talking about experimental errors, they are talking about people getting X treated with sugar pills and it actually works significantly better than without.
 
1:05 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes ah yes, if you are looking at the effect of the drug it self, then yes, the placebos are there just for the double blind factor
 
@nwp and they have no idea how much of each is just error.
 
@nwp that doesn't prove it is because of the sugar pills though, it just shows that X% of people seemed to feel better than they should have
 
nwp
hence the studies that try to quantify it, which you dismiss out of principle :/
 
You can't take those values at face value because they are severely flawed without control.
 
It's placebos all the way down.
 
nwp
1:10 PM
one could rephrase the study to "You don't need to believe in the placebo effect. It works anyways." That is a pretty strong statement.
 
The believing just seems to be outsourced to the researchers.
How did they shape the placebo so it was imperceptible to the test subjects?
 
heyaa
I'm Alex M. btw I cannot unchange my name for some reason unless I want 30 days
so weird
 
It's to try to minimise people being stupid with names :P
 
that makes sense, I can see it being abused lol
 
1:25 PM
Is is Basu or so
 
1:36 PM
but you don't look like rapptz at all
 
nonsense, we're so alike I mistake myself for rapptz all the time
 
after move assigning from a `std::vector<T, Allocator>` where `std::propagate_on_container_assignment<Allocator>` is `false`,
can I rely on the `size` of the moved from `std::vector` to be zero?
It seems that the vector is left in an initialized but unspecified state. When
`std::pocma` is `true` the allocator is moved, its `data()` is set to `nullptr`, and its `size()` and `capacity()` to zero, but when the allocator cannot be propagated, the original vector keeps its memory, and the elements are move-assigned element-wise. But I have no idea whether the vector size remains constant and the
this impacts whether I need to call e.g. vector::clear or not after moving from a vector with a pocma == false allocator =/
 
@gnzlbg the definition of move is that the original is nulled and the target becomes the actual pointer containing the data. So if it moves by element wise it's a vector of nullptr
@gnzlbg at least, that's the effect you'll get if you try to access it after the move
@gnzlbg and calling vector::clear shouldn't have any effect at all.
 
1:56 PM
@johnathon No, that's not the definition of move. The definition of move is that the target has the state the source previously had, and you can't assume anything about the source after the move, unless the Standard makes specific guarantees about that. And I don't think it does so for the assignment operator.
 
@johnathon How do you "null" the original if propagate_on_container_assignment<Allocator> is false?
 
IIRC swap is a valid implementation for move-assignment of vectors
 
@AndyProwl AFAIK the standard just says that std::vector is left in an unspecified but initialized state.
 
yeah
well
 
all implementations that i know of free the targets memory, and then do a swap
 
1:58 PM
that's what it says in general of any type unless there are specific additional guarantees
 
you have to destroy the target elements before doing the swap right?
 
hmm I guess so yes
 
I think move assignment guarantees that, so just a swap isn't enough.
 
yeah
 
if you swap pointer A to a free'd pointers address what's at that address?
 
1:58 PM
my new guitar has already shipped
 
it's nulled.
 
can't wait to go back home and try it out
 
I can't recall the details but you don't get the guarantee that the source vector is empty after move
 
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