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1:00 PM
jmps are pretty ugly tho
 
user406009
Something they can compile themselves very easily.
 
think of the prettiness
 
Jumping into a function that already exited via longjmp is UB
 
@Johannes You needed an MCVE or something.
 
@StackedCrooked not exactly a power law distribution there. I think I'm an outlier in the SO community...
 
1:00 PM
So i should have created an isolated minimal example.
 
That's only counting links in posts, not comments
 
@Nooble hmm i think i forgot what MVCE means
 
user406009
@sehe That's simply because not enough people have embraced the awesomeness of Coliru
 
SSCCE
 
@sehe Nice.
 
1:01 PM
If you use longjmp to handle errors you're doing it horribly wrong
 
@JohannesSchaub-litb Minimal Compilable Verifiable Example.
 
user406009
@Johannes Yep. The trick to a good SO question is an isolated example.
 
longjmp is an unrestricted goto
 
> I am gonna guess that in some sense the situation in computing will be be almost the same: we make a lot of progress, we are able to undertake bigger projects, we can build things which are much more interesting and sophisticated than what we could do 10 years ago. If you look at the kinds of things running on the PC in front of us now, they are enormously more powerful, and flexible than they were 10 years ago.
> But the amount of messy, intricate, awful code that doesn't work very well and that's underneath all of that has also increased enormously. In some sense I guess we'll continue to make progress, but it'll always be kind-of grimy and not-really-done yet. Because people always take on more than they can reasonably handle, they're always overreaching, and they seem never to go back and clean up the stuff that they did before.
 
Agh two Johannes.
 
1:01 PM
haha spot on!
 
Good luck reasoning about that code
 
@Nooble i don't understand. do you mean @johannes instead of me?
 
@JohannesSchaub-litb Maybe.
 
@StackedCrooked source data paste.ubuntu.com/12500400
 
@fredoverflow Going back is essential.
 
1:02 PM
Also good luck with multithreading and jump buffers
 
@JohannesSchaub-litb This chat is not beig enough for both of us :)
 
user406009
@sehe Is that chat or SO main site?
 
@CatPlusPlus the best proof that longjmp works is longjmp-based exception handling implementations
 
1:03 PM
@Lalaland main SO site. (posts, not comments)
 
@Johannes Press "cursor up" to correct previous messages.
 
user406009
That would make sense. Corilu links are most useful for comments and small messages here.
 
user406009
It loses value once you have enough space to post the entire program.
 
unfortunately SO-chat highlights messages intended for @Johannes to me aswell
 
Yes, the longjmp-based exception handling implementations that were obsolete years ago
 
1:04 PM
@Lalaland you think so? completely disagree; I will analyze comment links later
 
Also laffo 'proof'
 
@JohannesSchaub-litb I listened to The Red Album the other day. It seems like all the Beatles sing about is love :-/
 
I could do a really long jmp when I was in high school
 
It's proof for nothing, least of all legibility of code written by and for humans
 
but don't do longjmp in C++ unless you want to write code such as if(false) { cleanup: longjmp(...); } std::string x; ... goto cleanup;
 
1:05 PM
@sehe How much of you died inside while using xmlbadlet?
wtf
 
can't do that
you can't jump over a variable with non-trivial destruction
 
luckily in C such brainfuck is not needed
 
user406009
@fredoverflow Sounds like Go.
 
user406009
And what do you know, he did write a book about Go.
 
that'd invoke/ignore non-trivial destructors
 
1:06 PM
@Puppy in C++ this is allowed. only jumping over initialization is forbidden
 
@набиячлевэлиь not much at all. It's better than xmllint --xpath because it actually selects the value of attributes
 
ah
 
@Lalaland Kernighan wrote a book on Go?
 
@набиячлевэлиь yes it would and it does
invoke, not ignore, of course
 
@JohannesSchaub-litb therefore it's either illegal or UB
 
1:07 PM
not at all.
 
user406009
@fredoverflow amazon.com/… unbox
 
user1804599
A goto causing an object to go out of scope will call the destructor of that object.
 
that's the whole point why the back-jump is needed, to invoke the dtor in a defined fashion ofc.
but you don't want to write such code. it's ugly
 
laffo longjmp in C++ is even better idea
 
operator jmp
 
user406009
1:09 PM
@elyse Not for longjmp though.
 
user1804599
Don't ever use longjmp.
 
you also don't want to do try { ... } catch(...) { longjmp(...); } but you first need to goto out of the catch block and then longjmp, otherwise you will leak the exception object
 
You don't want to fucking use longjmp ever for any reason you can end on that jesus
 
user1804599
you indeed don't want to do that, since it involves longjmp
 
user406009
@JohannesSchaub-litb Why would you ever want to longjmp?
 
1:11 PM
To make your code unreadable and most likely broken
 
@Lalaland IMO in c code it'S valid and useful
 
No it's not
 
> If replacing of std::longjmp with throw and setjmp with catch would execute a non-trivial destructor for any automatic object, the behavior of such std::longjmp is undefined.
 
also wow dat troll
 
user406009
1:12 PM
@JohannesSchaub-litb Yeah, but C sorta sucks.
 
> sorta
C sucks
^^ truth
 
@milleniumbug thanks, that's the quote I had in mind. that's why those ugly gotos are needed when mixing C++ and longjmp. don't ever mix them
 
At best longjmp in C will make your code unbelievably hard to follow and won't help you with anything because you still need local cleanup blocks and all of them must be executed
And also good luck with reentrancy
Don't use longjmp ever
 
+1 @CatPlusPlus , you need to be careful indeed
 
@fredoverflow source?
 
1:14 PM
:cripes:
 
@JohanLarsson sauce
 
> To finish with something positive: The lispy guys seem to be the most cheerful people.
I guess we should all move to doing Lisp
 
c_programming
...
 
user406009
I think that graph is better interpreted as:
 
@TonyTheLion I heard lisp guys are the most cynical of all.
 
user406009
1:17 PM
Average age of developers using said language.
 
user1804599
 
user1804599
this is better
 
user406009
The languages with younger users have more swear words.
 
Clojure is different though.
 
@StackedCrooked Never heard that.
 
1:18 PM
@CatPlusPlus i previously programmed a LLVM based longjump-based exception handling, but with a C++ runtime lib that employed c++ exceptions. the most disgusting part was to translate at the entry points of the runtime lib from c++ exceptions to long jumps. but down from there it all worked out quite nicely
 
Than again, I have never done any Lisp ever
 
I think it was a Steve Yegge post.
Anyway that was bout the Common Lisp world.
 
user406009
@TonyTheLion You should try Clojure!
 
user406009
It's actually quite cool how minimal a language you can get.
 
@Lalaland I don't swear that often.
 
1:19 PM
I wonder which language has the most occurrences of "lucky".
 
yeah so believable because objective c is purer than cpp
 
Clojure is cool.
 
user1804599
@StackedCrooked English.
 
And it has no obvious flaws.
 
@StackedCrooked html
 
1:20 PM
@Lalaland Maybe I shall one day
 
Clojure is not that minimal
 
user1804599
Clojure is shit.
 
user1804599
A mess of inconsistencies and special cases is what Clojure is.
 
@StackedCrooked So all of Clojure's flaws are non-obvious?
 
1:20 PM
It seems so :)
 
I wish Smalltalk implementations weren't so annoying
 
user406009
@elyse ? What parts do you find inconsistent?
 
user1804599
What you don't like images?
 
user406009
I admit the empty seq vs null is very annoying.
 
user406009
But the rest tends to be OK IMHO.
 
1:21 PM
I prefer Scheme
 
@CatPlusPlus I wish that squak think wasn't so stupid.
 
I want to share some code with my friend, there is any good website for doing that ?
 
@Sajad pastebin
 
user406009
@Sajad How much code? Single file or an entire project?
 
user1804599
1:22 PM
@Lalaland For example, numerator and denumerator, this in proxy vs reify vs deftype, comparison operators are special-cased for numbers instead of Comparable<T>, lots more annoying stuff.
 
No, there are no places to share anything on internet
 
user1804599
also nil being treated as false is annoying and error-prone
 
@fredoverflow, @набиячлевэлиь thanks.
@Lalaland I meant was just some line codes
 
Clojure went little too far with Java FFI
 
user1804599
1:23 PM
Implicit conversions between numbers are annoying.
 
user1804599
Java interop is way too cumbersome because the community is no-OOP-zealots.
 
Stepanov did research in Scheme before he converted to static typing and generic programming. But in one his talks he seemed to look back fondly of it saying it was glorious.
 
user1804599
ClojureScript is almost but not quite entirely unlike Clojure proper, making portable code largely a myth.
 
user406009
@Sajad gist.github.com is best then.
 
@elyse Kotlin does not have implicit conversions.
 
user1804599
1:24 PM
@fredoverflow Does it have implicit upcasts?
 
user1804599
OCaml has subtyping but no implicit upcasts. I like that.
 
You mean pass a String where an Object is required? Sure.
 
@Lalaland yes :-)! I saw it a few min ago, it is very good
 
user1804599
Makes inference easy.
 
user406009
@elyse I am actually fine with that. Nil is decent as a falsy value.
 
1:25 PM
> But only SCHEME allows us to treat ADT as "first
class objects." It allows us to pass them as parameters, return
them as values, store them in data structures. We can deal with
abstract objects in the same way we deal with integers.
^ 1986
Wow, we've come a long way.
 
Not really
 
Sep 16 at 15:40, by Elim Garak
user image
 
@StackedCrooked For some reason I'm never annoyed with the retarded lyrics of that song.
 
Yes very funny and accurate
 
It will change soon
 
1:26 PM
@JohanLarsson A lot of craft was involved into making that song.
 
@JohanLarsson Oh, that's Daft Punk? Never knew that.
 
user1804599
@Lalaland It's utterly retarded.
 
user406009
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Ok, I am sufficiently awake now (I guess a little C in the morning helps me wake up). Let me know when you want to get started.
 
@Lalaland Get started on what?
 
user406009
A game project I think.
 
1:29 PM
@fredoverflow I saw a documentary yesterday called Daft Punk unchained. It's an interesting overview. Especially the part about random access memories (their latest album). (it can be found online with english subtitles)
 
user1804599
(defmacro if* [c t f]
  `(let [c# ~c]
    (assert (or (= c# true) (= c# false))
    (if c# ~t ~f))))
 
user1804599
neat
 
user406009
@fredoverflow I don't know what we would do without Elim to make all our memes for us.
 
user406009
@elyse Clojure?
 
@StackedCrooked awesome album title :)
 
1:31 PM
Apparently their surprise act in 2007 involved a light show (pyramid) that involved so many LED lights that every dealer in the US got sold out.
 
Not a waste at all
 
@Lalaland Is the art original? Or did he just put "Cat++" in an existing picture?
 
user406009
@fredoverflow He put Cat++ in an existing picture.
 
the hint is things like the completely different style
 
I dunno, I'm not an art critic.
 
user406009
1:34 PM
Javascript's rlemon has much more original content.
 
neither am I but it's pretty clear ;p
 
user406009
Well, the actual reason is that RoR allows people to pump out shit faster.
 
user406009
Which is what startups are all about.
 
@Nooble oh my lol
 
user406009
1:40 PM
@TonyTheLion You would probably like rbt.asia/g/thread/41920845 then.
 
@Lalaland that's also the motto where I work. "It should have been done yesterday", even though this place has existed for 20 years.
 
@Lalaland fukin' hipsters
 
@Lalaland I have to go to the airport now and I'll be back in an hour or maybe less.
 
user406009
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Ok. Have fun.
 
1:42 PM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ enjoy
 
lol HN
 
user406009
I hate airports with a passion.
 
I don't mind that much
 
Nick uses Sublime Text while at Starbucks coding in JS.
 
user1804599
Nectar Hues
 
1:43 PM
Lynch him.
 
@Nooble fucking hipster
 
/cc @ʞɔᴉN
 
@Lalaland Same here. Have a nice trip
 
user406009
@набиячлевэлиь I think he's talking about the other nick.
 
@ʞɔᴉN Hi.
 
user406009
1:43 PM
The backwards one.
 
do people really believe this whole AI explosion thing
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva what?
link?
 
@Nooble is he wearing a beret?
 
@Lalaland I thought he reverted himself back to normal
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva that we will be replaced by robots?
 
1:44 PM
@TonyTheLion you know the "once AIs can improve themselves we're fucked because blablabla exponential"
 
user406009
Why would someone ever want to work while sitting at Starbucks?
 
user406009
That's like the worst possible work environment ever.
 
money?
 
@Lalaland Because they don't have a choice?
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva oh that, I think we're far from that stage yet
 
1:44 PM
lol this kernel has TWRP in Japanese
 
@JohanLarsson Worse; a trilby.
 
user406009
@Puppy @Puppy Oops. Ambiguous question. I mean working while sitting at starbucks.
 
@Nooble inb4 fedora
 
user406009
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Ah, the AI singularity fears.
 
user406009
I don't think we are ever going to get AI in my lifetime, so I don't really care about them.
 
user406009
1:46 PM
Show me an AI equivalent to a 5 year old, and then we can start worrying.
 
@TonyTheLion Trilbys are basically fedoras but more hipster.
@Lalaland @ʞɔᴉN
 
I don't think there's anything as "exponential rate of improvement"
 
Doesn't @Nick live in like San Francisco, the town that basically screams "hipster"
 
Nothing in nature stays exponential for long
 
@AndyProwl So how did your adventure end
 
1:47 PM
@TonyTheLion @ʞɔᴉN? Yes.
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva rip mai long dong
 
If it's a bad idea, it probably has a name and headquarters in SF
8
 
@Nooble If you live in a town that promotes hipster culture, I suspect that you pretty much get sucked in to it
 
user1804599
@TonyTheLion Mahjong Dong
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Me neither, the complexity of a system can be exponential to it's size though. That goes in the opposite direction.
 
1:48 PM
@CatPlusPlus Sadly you're probably not far off the mark there
 
@CatPlusPlus Boss did magic at the airport, we paid a 400 EUR fine but I'm now in the U.S.
 
@TonyTheLion JavaScript is beyond the evils of being a hipster.
 
user406009
@Nooble JavaScript isn't that bad. Especially the new versions.
 
@Nooble JavaScript is another spelling for hipster
 
user406009
I would rather work in JavaScript than C or PHP for instance.
 
1:51 PM
@TonyTheLion JavaScript is literally hitler hipster
3
 
@CatPlusPlus building your headquarter on the pacific ring of fire is indeed a bad idea
 
user406009
@chmod711telkitty Nah. The risks of earthquake aren't that high.
 
@Lalaland Type safety nevr forgit
 
but you only need to die once, yes?
 
user1804599
@Lalaland wrong
 
user406009
1:52 PM
It's still stupid to build a headquarters in SF though. But because of other reasons, like housing costs.
 
user1804599
they didn't fix the real issues
 
user406009
@chmod711telkitty I don't think anyone has died from an earthquake in California in quite a while.
 
SF has good weather though, pity it shakes once a couple of decades
 
user406009
Other than heart attacks. Those don't count.
 
@Lalaland "quite a while"?
 
user406009
1:53 PM
@elyse Yeah. The truth table is still screwed up to all hell.
 
user1804599
no, that's not part of the real issues
 
user1804599
it's the lack of stackful coroutines and weak references
 
user1804599
data binding without weak references is a pain
 
user1804599
1:54 PM
Rx without weak references is a pain
 
> 23 earthquakes today
lol
 
user1804599
everything is a pain
 
user406009
People have different opinions on stackful coroutines.
 
> People have different opinions
 
user406009
JS has weakmap now though. So it sorta has sucky weak references.
 
user406009
Note the lack of deaths?
 
lol yet another AWS outage
99.9999999999999% reliability they say
ofc
 
user406009
@TonyTheLion Yes. But stackful coroutines are highly controversial.
 
> How I ported the control software of a nuclear reactor to reactive Javascript
kek
@Lalaland I'm not familiar enough with them to know this
 
1:58 PM
@Lalaland more than half of those incidences were in California
 
why are stackful coroutines controversial
 
user1804599
@Lalaland except for sealed/frozen keys, you could already implement that in ES5.
 
wait do I really want to know
 
user406009
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Well, I guess it's not really stackful coroutines that are controversial. It's more of the fact that elyse wants green threads.
 
user406009
And green threads are controversial.
 
1:59 PM
why are they
 
user406009
With async-await you have defined synchronization points.
 
user406009
So there are less chances of race conditions.
 
user1804599
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva they allow for data races.
 

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