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14:00
@AndyProwl Any kind of tuple where only one component is used for ordering.
Ell
Ell
Is red > blue? Not defined really. But we know that red != blue. I might be misunderstanding the discussion though
@Ell That's a good example.
Suppose we have colours as HSL triples, and we define an ordering based only on lightness.
Full bright red and full bright blue have the same lightness, so neither is < than the other (incomparable), but they're not ==.
Ell
Ell
Ah I see yes
Ok, I'm probably seeing where this is going but I have troubles internalizing it
@R.MartinhoFernandes But does the lightness race? If so, where?
14:02
5 mins ago, by Andy Prowl
@Mr.kbok I never understood NaN :(
Nevermind NaN.
Stick to tuples.
Yeah tuples are easier to understand
ok I think I got it, so if first or second were tuple types compared that way the equality operator would give a wrong result
@AndyProwl If they were tuples were some components don't matter for ordering, yes.
In a phone book, an entry is a tuple (name, number), but only name is used for ordering.
user1804599
14:05
implementing hello world is tricky
2
Right, I think I got it. So my snippet might have been ok for some types but not all, so the definition based on < only should be preferred for generality and mathematical reasoning. That makes sense.
user1804599
you have to interact with the environment
However, I'm wondering whether that is mandatory even for non-generic algorithms
e.g. assuming X is something like int, would it be inappropriate to choose the definition based on equality for the sake of simplicity?
user1804599
> Every well-behaved intuitionistic logic has a corresponding typed lambda calculus.
are you high? :D
user1804599
14:10
@AndyProwl why are you writing non-generic algorithms!!!!?????!?!?!
Another good example would be a topological sorting.
All nodes are distinct, but (at least) all siblings are incomparable.
@rightfold Mostly because templates make code harder to read and slower to build
@AndyProwl aaaaaa
user1804599
:OOOOOOOOOO
@Griwes bbbbbb
14:12
Who the hell cares about build times. </half-sarcasm>
Hitler does
@AndyProwl It's a pick of simplicity vs future-proofness.
user1804599
In Go there are no uses of templates that slow down the build.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah. I'm not sure where I stand atm.
@rightfold becomes less and less fun to read
Is it the time to plonk him already?
14:13
(I personally find that the implementations involving only op< are simpler to reason about :|)
@R.MartinhoFernandes Probably depends on training/experience
hey guys.....I have a question
@R.MartinhoFernandes Except when it starts to be arcane for some reason (...or when the op< is buggy in a subtle way :D).
To me a == b looks simpler than !(a < b) && !(b < a)
Yeah, but you don't often actually write !(a < b) && !(b < a).
14:14
That's true
See above: it's broken into separate clauses.
@AndyProwl But it doesn't work for a quite big number of things.
You only write !(a < b) && !(b < a) for map-like stuff (or bad orderings, I guess).
Topological sort Robot mentioned is a perfect example of why you can't really use ==.
user1804599
14:15
@TheArtist ok
9 mins ago, by Andy Prowl
However, I'm wondering whether that is mandatory even for non-generic algorithms
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yes.
I know the basics of C programming because I just finished a C programming course, and my gf is going to be starting university where she will be learning C++. She is suggesting me to teach her C programming (the basics I know) and so that I can guide her in problems, and give her my lecture materials..
...she wants to be prepared before going to university. I am excited to teach, but I am not sure if it will benefit her. As I have heard that the languages are different, and its bad to learn C programming coz it will make you a bad C++ programmer.
^^^ @rightfold
user1804599
You cannot learn C++ through C.
Ell
Ell
It will not benefit her
14:16
Chandler is good at explaining these ordering thingies and why we can't do it in any other way. @AndyProwl
user1804599
They are completely different languages.
@AndyProwl I find it easier to develop intuitive rules of thumb if there are fewer interacting constructs. With more the combinations become... combinatorical and you can't develop general rules that cover most cases.
she will have access to all my C programming lectures, so she has all the resources she need....
I suppose you could s/these ordering thingies/things/ and it would still hold true.
@Griwes I understand there are situation where == gives the wrong outcome. I'm talking about those situations where it does give the right outcome and results in a simpler definition - for some definition of simpler
14:17
@rightfold i understand that they are different languages when you go to higher levels.......but isn't it similar at the basic level?
@TheArtist Don't let C++ learners learn C first, ???, profit.
@TheArtist C lectures won't prepare you for a C++ course
@TheArtist no.
user1804599
There are some similarities but well-written C++ code looks nothing like C at all.
Even if they would be similar
Knowing C makes learning C++ harder.
14:17
Then why bother learning something else than the thing you want to learn
Like what's the logic here
user1804599
For example, well-written C code is cluttered with memory management all over the place, whilst in C++ it happens automatically.
@AndyProwl Those situations are special cases! Stop bothering with special cases!
user1804599
In C you often use void* to write generic code whereas in C++ you often use templates.
user1804599
14:18
And so on.
Heck, I rarely have primitive library functions return void anymore, lol.
(Since there's a chance I'll fmap on them or something (yes I have an fmap in C++ (yes, there's a chance it's at least somewhat broken))).
@Griwes Yes! No!
@AndyProwl Yes!
Write code in a way that is as generic as sensible.
I think for the basics it doesn't really matter which language you start with tbh, granted C/C++ are going to be harder to start with then say Java
user1804599
Learning C++ by learning C is like learning to fly a spaceship by learning to ride a bicycle.
14:19
Clearly you need to learn English when you want to learn German because they have similar alphabets
but the important part is to start and learn the basic concepts
whispers "monads" in @AndyProwl 's ear
Fuck either C or C++ as first language
@Griwes plonks Griwes :P
@AndyProwl :D
user1804599
14:20
@AndyProwl join the club!
@CatPlusPlus C++ was my first language :)
user1804599
R.I.P.
user1804599
wait, it was mine too
Congrats on wasting time
but to be fair
14:20
RIP
learning C++ first made Java way easier
inb4 RIP in peace
@MoH. you talk as if you're a success story or sth
@rightfold That explains why you're crazy
@CatPlusPlus What was your first language?
user1804599
Java is so much better than C++.
2
Also am I odd in having... PHP... as my first language? eh
@rightfold inb4 flag
@Griwes Pascal
^^^ if you look at my course.... the textbook we used was a C++ programming book
14:22
@AlexM. I went from knowing nothing about programming to being able to code, and you can too with these 5 simple tips!!
user1804599
Tracing GC and Maven alone.
@nabijaczleweli it's tempting
@MoH. Sounds like either you didn't learn Java properly, or learning anything at all first would have made the same difference.
And it's 13 years later and it still has better tooling than C++
we learned C using a C++ book, isn't that funny?
14:22
@MoH. Learning an imperative programming language made learning another imperative programming language easier. Shocking.
C++ as first language, Lounge for first aid, you like it rough don't you
How to learn C++ in 3 easy steps: 1. become rich 2. invent time travel machine 3. congratulations, you no longer need C++
user1804599
@TheArtist No, it's a horror story.
> recursor=8.8.8.8
I like when pieces of config files are so beautifully trivial.
morning all
14:26
@CatPlusPlus assuming travel machine does not require C++
> posts time travel comic
morning all
@R.MartinhoFernandes @Griwes all I meant was that, after learning C++, using Java felt easier since it does handle alot of things for you that C++ doesn't. Its just my personal opinion nothing more :)
@AndyProwl Oh, python has a library for it. import timemachine
Just came here and I'm already terrified.
@MoH. What exactly does it handle?
user1804599
14:26
wonders if his troll bait was detected
@Griwes Sanity
2
ITT java = sanity
Compared to C++
RIP
clearly you haven't done much Java
14:27
100% of rightfolds that used C++ went insane
Statistics don't lie
inb4 flagitty flag flag
user1804599
she was insane already
@Griwes Clearly you haven't done much C++
user1804599
but indeed
100% of hoomans that breathed died
Statistics don't lie
14:29
Java is annoying.
user1804599
I want to implement a JVM in Elixir.
JVM is good, that makes up for Java
@CatPlusPlus au contraire, my friend
@Griwes Clearly you haven't done much French.
@Griwes Clearly you haven't done many friends.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I haven't.
14:30
@R.MartinhoFernandes Did you?
How's your harem goin
6
why limit yourself to Java for the jvm? :(
@CatPlusPlus Fuck off.
@CatPlusPlus lol
user1804599
more like harm
Is it a touchy subject
14:31
did someone already post the hottest new programming news from /r/programming and HN
or should I start casually spamming links
No
And no
Days without being blatantly hit on: 3.
LUCKY YOU
I shouldn't have eaten cookies before chicken
Adults were right
Well, I spent the whole weekend inside.
Might have something to do with it.
@R.MartinhoFernandes ...that's one way to achieve that...
14:32
@Griwes Hmm. And turn off my phone, I guess.
Sigh.
user1804599
More realistic Java Garbage Collector runs only on Tuesdays at 4am and makes an obscene amount of noise
hahaha
@rightfold if thats the case . I wonder whats wrong with the professors.
huh... maybe I can afford to get my self some new compoo screens...
14:38
I have a few for sale.
really?
link to specs and rough asking price pls :)
@Ven poor OP is trying to not learn a new container here, I guess:
Well. You can't really have your cake and eat it too. But you can "hack" it, e.g. using PropertyMaps: **Live On Coliru. For the simple Item type here the compiler could optimize the cost away. Note the semantics are different though: an element will optionally be inserted, but the return is not by reference. — sehe 1 min ago
@R.MartinhoFernandes you still homeless?
So, there's another Martinho Fernandes that cannot get their e-mail address right. Lives in Mozambique and just recently changed their Snapchat phone number or whatever.
7
14:40
@R.MartinhoFernandes best thing I've heard all day
Hmm. The e-mail includes a link to change the password.
I did manage to get my email wrong when signing up for spotify :|
Just brings me to a page with two boxes to type and retype the new password.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Do eeeet!
14:41
@R.MartinhoFernandes yes
Snapchat is worth. Users have formally forfeited their privacy when they accepted the T&C
This is quite devious. I can easily hijack the whole account this way.
Only temporarily, I guess because I wager they send a confirmation of the change.
@sehe To my e-mail address?
How does Snapchat even send the link to a differen email address???!!
14:42
Good news everyone! I get to move desks, again, for the sixth time this year (I think... it could be more...)
@sehe I have no idea.
Plot twist: it's Robot's own forgotten account that got hacked by a Nigerian prince
I never used Snapchat.
@thecoshman do you get a nice view atleast?
Also, the e-mail is wrong (it's missing a dot, but Google just ignores that anyway)
14:43
@MoH. it's still at work, if that's what you're asking :\
@R.MartinhoFernandes o_0 really?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Perhaps it's a nice Phishing mail
@thecoshman yes
@sehe o_0 Google? Shit? Never....
user1804599
@TheArtist I have no experience with learning C++ in a school, so I can't tell.
user1804599
It's generally recommended to learn C++ through (one of) the books listed here:
user1804599
4270
Q: The Definitive C++ Book Guide and List

grepsedawkThis question attempts to collect the few pearls among the dozens of bad C++ books that are published every year. Unlike many other programming languages, which are often picked up on the go from tutorials found on the Internet, few are able to quickly pick up C++ without studying a well-written...

14:44
@rightfold woah , you self taught yourself?
@thecoshman It sounds actually good. It prevents accounts that differ only by dots from existing (and thus getting the other's mail by typo of the sender), and it ensures delivery even on typo from the sender.
user1804599
Lounge<C++>, Stack Overflow, half a book and GoingNative videos thought me a lot.
@thecoshman actually it's a feature. They prevent you from creating too easily confusable email addresses
we all did
@TheArtist Who hasn't?
14:45
@sehe Nah, legit snapchat website it seems.
@TheArtist Most of us did, I think
@sehe Probably one of those ~~unobtrusive~~ registration procedures where email is not verified whatsoever
@R.MartinhoFernandes it would be better if it clearly blacklisted them, so that people are well aware of it.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I have the same issue with some guy in India. Keeps using my email address for buying all of his stuff, creating accounts etc. Sites should really give you an option to flag an email address as invalid. Most website account registrations these days don't even need you to click a verification link anymore.
What is going on in this strand
14:45
but I see the sense behind their system
@sehe @nabijaczleweli oh i see
@buttifulbuttefly string theory
@TheArtist I think most people learn languages outside of a classroom
@Prismatic I have this issue with, counting this new one, four different people.
@MoH. C++ especially
14:46
^
@sehe wstring theory is wider
And this is why shared domains for email suck
the fuck
I can't type
@R.MartinhoFernandes are you sure you are taking your meds?
14:46
@buttifulbuttefly Stereo Widening is soooo '80s
@buttifulbuttefly I'm doing just grand :D
universities don't teach programming
try {
    return run_route_handler($context, $method_specific, requested_page());
} catch (Exception $e) {
    die("OK");
}
@thecoshman wtf
I have this
14:46
@thecoshman Er. I get the e-mails all the time.
@khajvah they do.
user1804599
@Jefffrey is that PHP?
One of them is a teacher and their students send me assignments.
Nice of them
@R.MartinhoFernandes that's rather sad really...
14:47
Another is an accountant for some sect in Brazil, and I get financial documents sometimes.
@khajvah however not languages like php etc....
The return line is 108, and an exception is passing through.
@thecoshman Of all the stupid shit I get, the students are the ones I do not ignore.
@khajvah but C, C++, python, matlab are taught.
@TheArtist no, they teach you a language or two and give you stupid assignments which you can solve by shitty code
14:48
@R.MartinhoFernandes you actually grade their work?
user1804599
@Jefffrey which version of PHP is it?
It says "uncaught exception" and the stack trace says it's thrown from line 108
siggraph 2015 soon
@TheArtist not properly in many cases.
> languages like PHP
14:48
@rightfold 5.5
@R.MartinhoFernandes So, I take it you have uploaded the snapchat contents by now :)
user1804599
In PHP 7 there's a superclass of Exception.
those are two disjoint sets
or just let them know they are being silly?
user1804599
@Jefffrey OK.
14:48
And another is... I dunno, at some point I received a lot of travel plans from his friends.
This is so bad I don't even
^ oh shit one time I got airline tickets
user1804599
@Jefffrey Are you in a namespace?
I also get bank newsletters from one of them.
user1804599
If so, catch \Exception instead of Exception or else it will use YourNamespace\Exception.
14:49
Not sure which, and it may actually be a different one.
I wonder if I could have actually gone and flown with someone else's tickets. That's a huge security problem
@rightfold I'm so bad I don't even.
Yes, that was it.
Not enough identifying info in the bank newsletters.
Thanks
14:49
@R.MartinhoFernandes maybe just set up a new email...
steam pls
@Prismatic A friend of mine flew with a ticket with the wrong name.
@thecoshman Er, no. It's my name @ gmail.com
user1804599
@Jefffrey np :)
@R.MartinhoFernandes apparently not your name though
14:50
@TheArtist At best you are taught the very basics of coding, but I know plenty of people who leave Uni with a CS degree and still don't know how to code anything.
@cat do you own lounge.net?
loungecpp.net
Well, other things instead of spam, I guess.
user1804599
cat you own!
14:51
@AlexM. Trading Card, Haha Just Kidding
user1804599
lol
user1804599
mathematicians would wet themselves immediately
I kinda want to start using my thecoshman.com email... but I don't think I want to keep it self hosted... sounds like too much effert
I only really set it up as a proof of concept sort of thingy
user1804599
I think you can use Gmail with custom domains.
14:53
maybe if I move it to a VM...
@rightfold something to that effect I think
don't you need that service that was free ages ago?
@R.MartinhoFernandes you got set up with gmail didn't you on custom domain?
user1804599
> Adding new users is $5 per user per month or $50 for a year.
user1804599
lol
how many you get for free?
user1804599
0
14:55
lol gmail
@rightfold fuck that :P
pay for a service? what do you think this is? a normal rational world?
@thecoshman get an amazon EC2 instance
user1804599
still better than installing a mail server yourself though
user1804599
email is the worst set of protocols ever
@thecoshman clearly this is a real world
user1804599
14:56
you don't want to configure anything related to it
@rightfold nah, really not that hard to set up... more work than it should be though sure....
@khajvah it's not really the uptime that I am worried about, it's the management and shite
I wonder how much it would cost for an Amazon instance running a mail server doing next to fuck all...
Biggest advantages of [email protected] email address: it's short as hell, and I don't have to teach people how to spell my name.
There are cheaper options than EC2
(Linode, DO)
You want at least two though
Unless you can live with dropped emails
14:59
oh

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