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10:04
@AlexM. I'd play that again
@ThePhD :( More people complaining about this github.com/rmartinho/nonius/issues/9
Hate these warnings.
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes std::ptrdiff_t. :D :D :D :D
> Please get also rid of the C-Style casts: e.g. (int)(variable)
use instead static_cast(), That you can easily search for those casts and its also valid C++.
user3010322
It's an integral type.~~
10:07
ITT Robot being taught how to C++.
3
@R.MartinhoFernandes how big is the code base roughly? I might have a look at fixing your bad casting :P
@thecoshman There's no bad casting.
sup bby u wanna c how big my codebase is
@Cicada yes <bends over> s/>/ the table>/
@ThePhD I don't care. I don't want a type suitable for telling the distance between pointers. I want a type suitable for counting things.
10:08
wait... that doesn't make it any better o_0
@thecoshman There's even a warning that let's you find these!
It's not my fault that std::count returns a value of a type suitable for telling the distance between pointers.
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes You can also just find the alias of the best type for natural numbers in C++.
user3010322
I'm not sure if there's one that matches the stl that isn't ptrdiff_t though.
The best type is int.
10:11
what's this...pointers...and numbers? blasphemy!
And I don't want to pollute the code with casts all over, but well, I guess that's how it goes with the broken stdlib.
@JohanLarsson What is "a slack thing"?
Ell
Ell
I forget why unsigned is bad for always positive numbers
user3010322
typedef std::ptrdiff_t intz; // it's an integer we promise.~
Because accidentally decrementing 0 is far more likely than accidentally decrementing -2147483648.
10:12
@fredoverflow At least it's defined. :P
The best type is a bigint.
@Ell Because they don't behave like positive numbers do.
but compilers moans like a whore if you compare int with vector.size() :(
26
Q: Why is size_t unsigned?

JonBjarne Stroustrup wrote in The C++ Programming Language: The unsigned integer types are ideal for uses that treat storage as a bit array. Using an unsigned instead of an int to gain one more bit to represent positive integers is almost never a good idea. Attempts to ensure that some val...

> The unsigned integer types are ideal for uses that treat storage as a bit array. Using an unsigned instead of an int to gain one more bit to represent positive integers is almost never a good idea. Attempts to ensure that some values are positive by declaring variables unsigned will typically be defeated by the implicit conversion rules.
@R.MartinhoFernandes what do you mean?
I'm tired of explaining arithmetic.
10:14
for (unsigned i = 255; i >= 0; --i)
{
    // lol infinite loop
}
Meh. Iterators.
@fredoverflow range(255, 0).map( /* not so infinite now */ );
It's a problem with for loops, not with unsigned integers. :P
@Griwes wrong direction
@fredoverflow range(255, 0) then.
Whatever.
10:16
lol using map in place of a for loop
@BartekBanachewicz 360-degree protection.
for (unsigned i = 256; i --> 0 ;)
{
    // yay finite loop
}
Ell
Ell
that wink though
@fredoverflow inb4 what's the --> operator?
is it tend to zero?
10:18
¬_¬ it's not an operator, it's two...
3977
Q: What is the name of the "-->" operator?

GManNickGAfter reading Hidden Features and Dark Corners of C++/STL on comp.lang.c++.moderated, I was completely surprised that the following snippet compiled and worked in both Visual Studio 2008 and G++ 4.4. The code: #include <stdio.h> int main() { int x = 10; while (x --> 0) // x goes to 0 ...

lol
(i--) > 0
thought it was some other language than c++
I need a coffee
@CatPlusPlus I wonder how do you resolve conflicts like that
one dev says "for loop", the other says "map reduce"
both have their arguments
both are "right", technically
how do you ever come to a conclusion in a situation like that
If you're not mapping then map is wrong, simple as that
@BartekBanachewicz Fire every employee but you.
10:21
@CatPlusPlus mm, you're "for-ing"?
looping
so I suppose you're against mapM_
@AlexM. fuck that term
I don't even consider for a loop really
Yeah but you're crazy
6
@BartekBanachewicz Er, mapM_ isn't like that.
@BartekBanachewicz It's a knot.
@BartekBanachewicz then you are moronic
10:22
@R.MartinhoFernandes closer I guess.
Map is "transform every element into maybe something else", it's not "do something for every element"
@thecoshman right, I am because a java-writing pirate on the internet said so
@thecoshman too harsh
2 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
so I suppose you're against mapM_
@BartekBanachewicz No. You are because you said "I don't even consider for a loop really".
Rather different.
10:23
for used to "do something for every element" isn't like, looped
it's a well-defined number of repetitions
not like say server while
which I'd consider a loop
@BartekBanachewicz mapM_ is poorly named.
while, for, do while, for each, map, sum. basically all loops
It's a loop because when you draw the execution graph it goes back to itself
10:25
Apr 4 at 12:18, by Andy Prowl
Cat nails it again
user3010322
I want polyiterators.
I'd much rather think about for as something that has that inner loop hidden inside
user3010322
I want my begin and end types to be different
the fact that the control uses the same code again is an implementation detail
@BartekBanachewicz That's also a well-defined number of repetitions.
user3010322
10:25
I want that to be goddamn acceptable.
what's important that every element results in an effect or a value
Also even with "well-defined number of repetitions" you still can't tell if it will terminate so
not necessarily every element
@BartekBanachewicz That's not even true
10:26
@BartekBanachewicz How different. Impressive.
one of the pitfalls of thinking about a for as a loop is parallelism
"Hey guys, I'm talking about something different from X, but I'm going to call it X just so I can... what? I don't even."
well, if you stick to the low-level definition, it becomes a loop alright
wait is this strictly a Haskell discussion, or are we talking about "for" in general?
10:27
WTF is a low-level definition.
but we're all hyping foreach-like constructs and they don't suggest that behaviour IMHO
@AndyProwl It's not.
It's... something
It's only a Haskell discussion insofar as Bartek is involved.
What behaviour
10:27
@R.MartinhoFernandes the C-like?
@BartekBanachewicz You mean the definition?
Time to buy some euro guise
Oh wait.
There's only the C-like definition of the for loop (in C++03).
Parallel loops are still loops
the behaviour of ordered, single-thread execution of the same code
10:28
Then I guess "for" is a loop, and if you think of it otherwise, it means your definition of "loop" deviates from the commonly understood one
1 min ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
"Hey guys, I'm talking about something different from X, but I'm going to call it X just so I can... what? I don't even."
Parallel-for isn't just a loop.
Nothing is ordered
Ell
Ell
@ThePhD why?
Even non-parallel loop can be reordered to hell and back
10:29
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm always late but that doesn't stop me :D
And where the fuck did threads enter the picture anyway
Loop sliced and scheduled on different cores/threads/whatever is still a loop
user3010322
@Ell Because having the concept of end put into the type system rather than in the data of an iterator is a massive boon.
but then you have the same code executing multiple times
One day I'll manage to say the right thing before someone else did that already. Go Andy go
user3010322
Albeit it complicates things.
10:30
@BartekBanachewicz Almost like in a loop
wow
lol
@CatPlusPlus no, multiple times in parallel
conceptually, there's no going back in the diagram
sec
lemme draw
Of course there is
@R.MartinhoFernandes huh... again, this post has lost you avatar. It find it ammsuing :D
SIMD
10:30
There's just more of them in parallel
Ell
Ell
@ThePhD it is? Why?
@thecoshman It's the size.
@R.MartinhoFernandes ooooh
giggidy
Ell
Ell
let's say it is pointing to the end of the vector. it++ - does it now have to change type?
@thecoshman Go to gravatar.com/avatar/… and force a refresh.
10:31
Don't star that
If it will make you more happy we can say parallel loops map to one or more loops
But it's still loops
loops loops loops
@CatPlusPlus stop looping
you seem to be stuck in a loop
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeah, all fixed now. :(
cat in a loop
Do you want an early return?
10:31
@Ell UB
I think Bartek doesn't like the term "loop" because it contains "oop"
3
about 'op'?
loop contains op too
Bartek still on about something else.
i dont understand the red line
blocks aren't "connected" though
@CatPlusPlus uh, so parallel for of n executions maps to n loops of ... one execution?
10:34
Just shut up about parallel for.
why?
no-true-loop fallacy now?
"Y has property Z, therefore X also has property Z"
@Cicada don't you think that red line made the whole graph looking much better?
@BartekBanachewicz Wut
user3010322
@Ell Because trivial things that don't necessarily properly model the hard iterator concepts means shit gets real pretty fast.
10:34
6 mins ago, by Cat Plus Plus
Parallel loops are still loops
Ell
Ell
is there a name for a for loop where each iteration may not occur sequentially?
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, that's a tautology.
Yes, a for loop
stop calling for a loop and the problems disappear
What problems
10:35
The flow graph is not the same though
@BartekBanachewicz What problems? You?
Oh well
I think I get Bartek's point
@R.MartinhoFernandes you don't have to attack me personally just because you don't like my opinion on (sic!) for loops
Xeo
Xeo
What did I walk in on, now.
Ell
Ell
10:36
is there a name for a loop where each iteration must occur sequentially?
A sequential loop
This is not what sic means
@BartekBanachewicz You were the one that posited these 'problems'.
user3010322
@Xeo We cannot map-reduce our concept of a loop and therefore chat is not web-scaling properly.
to think this was all started by me saying "loop"
amazing
10:37
good joob
@Ell Unparallelizable loop? (just a wild guess)
16 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
I don't even consider for a loop really
See, that's where the "problems" were brought up.
@Ell sequential loop makes sense in my mind
@AlexM. Don't even try saying "while" ever again
but I like to use "loop" and "parallel loop" anyway
10:38
I really don't get why you people argue over definitions and whether something fits a definition.
Good for you.
"for" and "do" are forbidden too
like how .NET has the regular foreach and Parallel.ForEach
Ell
Ell
@Nisk it's called the socratic method and it's a good way of debate vOv
10:38
@R.MartinhoFernandes So what? I am trying to explain why do I think what I think and you're telling me how I'm the problem of the fact that... uh I have a problem with something? Genius, I suppose we can resolve every problem or concern anyone had ever this way; you have a problem because you noticed a problem.
5 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
@CatPlusPlus uh, so parallel for of n executions maps to n loops of ... one execution?
Non-parallel loop is just one where slice and merge are noops
@BartekBanachewicz You said that the problems would disappear, but the only problem seemed to be that you thought for shouldn't be a loop.
@R.MartinhoFernandes calm down Robot, we're all friends here, no need to kill me
@Ell Did Cinch hack your account?
@AlexM. Your plonks are showing.
Ell
Ell
10:39
@AndyProwl haha nope, why? :P Do I sound like him/her?
I don't remember Cinch's mannerisms
Yeah :D
@R.MartinhoFernandes whoops, you're right, checked the transcript
@BartekBanachewicz Everyone was problemless until you posited that for isn't a loop.
@Nisk because it's very hard for me to say what colour something is, if we don't agree on what colour 'red' (etc.) signifies.
sorry bout that
10:40
And yes, if you stop calling for a loop, that problem disappears. Duh.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I thought it shouldn't be a loop because conceptually, IMHO, you can think about "for" not looping any code, not changing its observed behaviour
@BartekBanachewicz You can do that for every loop.
@R.MartinhoFernandes lol
@BartekBanachewicz that's just loop unrolling...
10:41
I had to come in and ask what Bartek is smoking? :P
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well then, can we agree on "for != for loop"?
@thecoshman I think you've got some swapping to do in that sentence
@TonyTheLion <3
You just removed another useful word from your lexicon.
@BartekBanachewicz No.
user3010322
10:41
@TonyTheLion TOOOOOOOOOOONYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
I was typing that
Conceptually there's no code
2
@R.MartinhoFernandes so for you "for" automatically has to mean something that's looping
@BartekBanachewicz No.
that's the problem I was trying to show here
10:41
@BartekBanachewicz ofc not
What problem
The primary difference is that I am a context-aware robot.
@BartekBanachewicz map doesn't imply it's mapping to more than one thing either vOv
while can also not loop (wow) why is while a loop and for not
@CatPlusPlus because something
10:43
@R.MartinhoFernandes by negating for != for loop from your answer, I assume you agree with for == for loop. So, do you consider a for loop something that's looping? Because then you also consider for as something that's looping
So I leave the Lounge and it turns into this?
@BartekBanachewicz False dichotomy.
@TonyTheLion FYI he is more fanatical than ever before
@BartekBanachewicz I'll have to explain to you again how language and communication work.
10:43
@TonyTheLion 'turns'? did you hit your head?
I don't understand anything of this conversation
Gee, and I am the robot.
@TonyTheLion important shit, uncon! you coming?
@BartekBanachewicz "for" is a widely accepted shortcut for this "for loop" thing.
@thecoshman sorry I have lived a life for the last two months
10:44
It can also be a ton of other things. So what.
I don't know why for and for loop would be different and what would the first one be
The keyword in a language?
@TonyTheLion poor you
@thecoshman undecided
@R.MartinhoFernandes so now you're just derailing the discussion on the all possible meanings of the word "for"?
@TonyTheLion Then decide and come.
10:44
@thecoshman in the case of colour red, colour being a pretty old concept by now - wouldn't it be up to the individual to research and come to terms with what colour "red" is - as opposed to questioning the common understanding?
@BartekBanachewicz No. I'm explaining why this chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/23147521#23147521 is a false dichotomy. You don't have to move the discussion that way, you just have to accept the explanation and retract your false dichotomy. Then you can keep on the rails.
@BartekBanachewicz I do not despise the very existence of you, that does not mean I obsess over you.
Ell
Ell
meh I think I agree with brakit on this maybe
I had a life my whole life, internet doesn't interfere with real life
I still don't know what the problem is
10:45
@TonyTheLion come any way
That parallel for is a generalised, more higher-level abstraction therefore for is not a loop or... what
@Ell what
I like getting upboats on my reddit comments :'(
@Ell what exactly are you agreeing on? If I understood the problem, I too might agree that it's a problem.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I still don't see how what I derived is false. We've established that you believe "for" is commonly used to mean "for loop".
10:46
'for' is a loop, no matter what way you turn it, it always comes back to where it started
while and for are exactly equivalent because this is language-level distinction only
Ell
Ell
@TonyTheLion I mean braket asked robor if all "for"s loop, he said no, so for != for loop
Well, I don't care about the point, just the arguing logic :P
@BartekBanachewicz Yes. And it is also used to mean other things that are not "for loop".
OTOH, you also said that for you "for" is not not equal to "for loop"
Yes, there's a third option. It can be either the same or not the same.
10:47
@Ell not all balls are footballs, that does not mean that no balls are footballs.
is goto a loop? foobar for thought
@R.MartinhoFernandes right.
user3010322
@chmod711telkitty Only if you goto yourself.
@BartekBanachewicz So you can backtrack from "by negating for != for loop from your answer, I assume you agree with for == for loop", then.
Ell
Ell
@thecoshman well he shoulda used an implicated arrow then :P
10:48
@Ell he said both yes and no, as you can clearly see
a parallel for is just the same as normal for, with different conditionals/range, you might as well treat each instance as a separate for-loop. It still loops like any other loop.
Ell
Ell
Can I ask a more important question?
What order are you supposed to watch star wars in for the first time?
@R.MartinhoFernandes yes, I didn't think you'll answer to my "yes/no" question with FILE_NOT_FOUND
@BartekBanachewicz That's the right answer to false dichotomies.
Xeo
Xeo
mu
10:50
assuming I agree with you
Ell
Ell
what is a false dichotomy?
@BartekBanachewicz Also, you didn't ask me if for != for loop. You asked if we could agree on that.
@Ell The mistaken assumption that there are only two mutually exclusive choices.
how would you/I call a thing that works similarly to a for, but doesn't have to be a loop
@Ell ep 4, 5, 6.
user3010322
di-chotomy
10:51
@Nisk how many times does each instance loop?
@Ell From 1 to 6. That way it'll keep getting better with each movie.
@Ell It’s either a fruit or a bird. I don’t see how it could be anything else.
user3010322
Does that mean there can be tri-chotomies and quad-chotomies?
@BartekBanachewicz I would generalize something that behaves as a loop - as a loop.
@ThePhD it'd be "bi-chotomy"
10:51
@Nisk The flow graph goes forward only. I think that's Bartek's point.
@Ell Unless you are worried about the decades old spoiler for the ending of Ep5.
Ell
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz why bi?
@Cicada and I'm saying they might as well be separate loops.
Ell
Ell
bi & di both mean 2
10:52
@Nisk That doesn't make sense
@Nisk how many times does each separate loop execute?
@BartekBanachewicz it can vary - since last thread/loop might have to deal with odd data
@Ell One’s Latin, the other’s Greek.
@ThePhD Yes
@Nisk what if I spawn n threads for n elements?
10:53
@ThePhD also "quad" would probably be "tetra" or something
@Cicada why? If we're talking about parallel loops - they are separate loops, ran in separate threads
@Nisk No. It's a parallel loop, each of the threads is running linearly. They are not separate loops. They are a parallel loop.
2
Ell
Ell
is for(int i = 0; i < 1; i++) {...} a loop?
yes
a degenerate one
user3010322
@AndyProwl What's the tetra-like word for 6?
@ThePhD hexa
user3010322
HEX
@ThePhD heptadeca-chotomies
user3010322
RIGHT
user3010322
Damn, ic an't believe I forgot that word.
user3010322
10:55
I'm a dumb.
Hence hexadecimal which means sixteen
@ThePhD use the number thingies in chemistry
The numerical multiplier (or multiplying affix) in IUPAC nomenclature indicates how many particular atoms or functional groups are attached at a particular point in a molecule. The affixes are derived from both Latin and Greek. == Compound affixes == The affix for a number larger than twelve is constructed in the opposite order to that which the number is written in Hindu-Arabic numerals: units, then tens, then hundreds, then thousands. For example: 548 → octa- (8) + tetraconta- (40) + pentacta- (500) = octatetracontapentacta- 9267 → hepta- (7) + hexaconta- (60) + dicta- (200) + nonalia- (9000...
that's where I learned all of them from in high school
@BartekBanachewicz Depends, and also isn't important
user3010322
Also, controlling a hex board with 4 keyboard keys is a nightmare.
10:56
@Cicada the code is the same, the instance of the loop on the stack in each thread will be different, with different parameters. Unless you have each thread do a non-sensical thing of performing the same computation on the same piece of data.
@CatPlusPlus IMHO it's important in the sense that if we can show that degenerate cases aren't looping, the looping isn't inherent to the structure.
chemistry is really awesome but too difficult imo :(
@Nisk see above reply to Cat ^
@CatPlusPlus is do { ... } while (false); a loop?
Ell
Ell
@AlexM. yep :'(
I got a B in chemistry
somehow
10:56
@Nisk There are no "instances" of loop, the loop construct is only a way of expressing your computation, the actual control flow does not loop, god.
@ThePhD sex! (joke)
Ell
Ell
buttstuff
hitler also looped
2
I'm in
10:57
bye all discussion about loops
cya
@Ell I always got stuff like 6/10 and 7/10 but considering the prof that I had, those were great grades
also going home~
she was the "you didn't write down the date on your homework, 1/10 sit down." kind of prof
Ell
Ell
@TonyTheLion shit, hi
10:57
For execution to be straight in a parallel loop you'd have to put 1 element on every executor, which is dumb and who does that
@AndyProwl No. "tetra-" is the Greek prefix. "di-" is Latin.
Are strange loops loops?
A strange loop arises when, by moving only upwards or downwards through a hierarchical system, one finds oneself back to where one started. Strange loops may involve self-reference and paradox. The concept of a strange loop was proposed and extensively discussed by Douglas Hofstadter in Gödel, Escher, Bach, and is further elaborated in Hofstadter's book I Am a Strange Loop, published in 2007. A tangled hierarchy is a hierarchical consciousness system in which a strange loop appears. == Definitions == A strange loop is a hierarchy of levels, each of which is linked to at least one other by some...
@Ell shit, hi
Ell
Ell
@TonyTheLion How are you? :)
@CatPlusPlus It's Bartek's premise though
10:58
shit.
anywhores! am off
Ell
Ell
@TonyTheLion ah shit
@Dean You still there?
It's an edge case and also not very useful for conceptual overview
@Cicada a parallel loop is a construct that gives you multiple loops, each of those loops - can loop.
10:58
@R.MartinhoFernandes Dychotomy comes from Greek, so why is "tetra" inappropriate?
@Griwes Same as this
user3010322
Whistle.
@Nisk lol yeah rite
@AndyProwl Oh, wait. It's both.
@Cicada glad we agree.
10:59
@R.MartinhoFernandes Are you sure? Maybe 'du-' and 'dy-' are related though (first time I notice that).
@Nisk yes you were right all along I was only pretending to be dumb!
@AndyProwl I'm thoroughly confused.

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