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14:00
@Pris it's way more readable once you get used to the syntax
Yeah. Like regex.
@Pris it always hurts at the beginning and I still can't write lisp because of that
therefore Haskell is readable. QED.
but Haskell is really very clean
it's whitespace delimited and puts a lot of emphasis on avoiding parens
so what's (fn a (b c)) in Lisp, becomes fn a $ b c in Haskell
room topic changed to: Lounge<Fanboyism> For all your fanboyish needs!
14:02
that makes it much nicer to edit
Just realised that the list of three hated languages today happens to be the web stack trinity. Didn't actually spot it whilst coming up with the list.
Still, probably not a co-incidence.
rubby is worse
$("onclick", function() {
    print("lol");
});

when "onclick" $ do
    print "lol"
don't forget whython
maybe I'm weird, but I consider the 2nd one really nicer
14:03
I'm kinda tired of layout-based syntax
I'm tired of layout-based layouts
@CatPlusPlus well there's the parenthesised version of do
user1804599
Rx.Observable.fromEvent(document, 'click')
.subscribe(function() { print("lol"); })
but if I have to choose between no parens and whitespace-sensitive syntax, I won't think even a second
I remember lua being ugly too. I think I actually chose JS for scripting just because of lua's syntax one time
14:04
@Pris too bad, lua is a much better language than JS imho
they are very similar but Lua just does stuff right
Syntax fades into background anyway
Tools tools tools tools
@CatPlusPlus depends on the project scale
@BartekBanachewicz I don't doubt that, esp since Lua is the predominant game-scripting language but I remember growing weary of the syntax... and then when it said 'indices start at 1' I just closed the tab
Ell
Ell
Syntax is not really one of the more important things IMHO
I agree
as long as we don't count unnecessary parens into that
14:07
@BartekBanachewicz POLAR BEAR TILES, I TAKE IT?
@sehe hihi nah regular stone ones
user image
2
me flipping through the pages of one Google search
Ell
Ell
Not many languages have unnecessary parens
What do you mean by "pages" in the context of Google search?
Wait.
You look beyond the first page?
it didn't contain what I needed
why arent google search results just infinite
Because the first page is enough.
anyway, what's funny is how Google's opinion of how many results I have changes
if you don't find the thing on the first page your search clause is bad
@Puppy concurrent deleting
14:10
@Ell Lisp and JS are the most notable ones imho
also a lot of languages require parens for function application
which makes currying a bit meh
f (1) (2) (3) i mean come on
Ell
Ell
It's necessary though
@BartekBanachewicz Actually, I'm just using an API which is technically public but hardly anyone actually uses in public, so there's basically no resources
Ell
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For disambiguation
@Ell disambiguation from what? Please elaborate
Ell
Ell
14:13
Well, if you don't have parenthesis you don't know if you're applying the function or referring to ot
If you're passing the function to something for example
@sehe C++ was added in an edit.
@Ell ah right languages without referential transparency
@sehe Only works if the tag was there before. It prevents you from adding the tag, closing, and then removing the tag (which leaves no traces)
@BartekBanachewicz probably inspired by the f(x) math notation
@StackedCrooked sin x
Ell
Ell
14:15
@BartekBanachewicz sin(x)
@Ell no one writes sin like that
well, it's uncommon
Ell
Ell
Okay. sin(x+1)+1
also ln
@Ell sure, add parens when they disambiguate
@BartekBanachewicz I don't see how the semantics of calling the function affects the syntax of whether you're passing a function or calling it
let y1 = sin x
let y2 = sin (x+1)
Ell
Ell
14:16
Fair
@Puppy because there's no difference between passing a function and calling it in haskell
Ell
Ell
But my point before was that parens are necessary most of the time
In non referentially transparent languages
@Ell Yeah you made a good point. Well done :)
@Ell might be that
@Ell I don't think so.
14:18
@Ell in this case I'd make passing by ref explicit though
myHOF f x = f (f x)

myF = (+1)

myHof #myF 5
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Ell
Yeah
@BartekBanachewicz Really?
replace "#" with anything
Ell
Ell
One of your least favourite languages has optional parenthesis in some cases :P
@Puppy No. It's nonsense.
14:19
Damn I'm so shitfaced
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yes, I'm just trying to Haskellify several examples of how that's patently utter bullshit.
I feel I haven't slept in days..
Ell
Ell
Sleep now
ITT, puppy teaching me haskell
this is going to be fun
Ell
Ell
And stop drinking
14:20
@Puppy I'm eagerly waiting
You two should get a boxing ring.
user1804599
lol
@StackedCrooked what for?
I just think his response might be amusing
Ell
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes don't you think? $ In reference to my parenthesis thing
user1804599
people visited the office while I was wearing my horse mask
14:21
@Ell $ is the same as space
@BartekBanachewicz I'd rather to see you guys boxing.
it has just different fixity
That would be way more entertaining.
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz wrong
@StackedCrooked Hooraaay, let's bet
user1804599
14:21
@BartekBanachewicz wrong
user1804599
they're both infix
@Ell No. Looking at my code in nonius, for example, the parenthesis wouldn't be needed that much.
user1804599
the precedence is different
(And give them wrestler badass nicknames)
Ell
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz it was meany to be interpreted so the last sentence was in brackets :P
14:22
@BartekBanachewicz It's a smiley.
lol
okay I'm bad
Ell
Ell
I mean parentheses.
parents thesis
user1804599
practical theist
user3010322
@CatPlusPlus What do you mean by layout-based?
user3010322
14:23
Things like significant whitespace and the like?
@ThePhD most prolly
user1804599
insignificant indentation master race
@BartekBanachewicz Robot also said that it was nonsense. I'm going to actually work, but when I get back, I can teach you that passing a function and calling a function are clearly completely different things, regardless of your language.
user1804599
Is gravatar borked?
14:24
Puppy's school of haskell
of course my wording was imprecise, but it was worth it to keep it and not correct myself to see him ranting about "calling functions" (lel) in Haskell again
user1804599
function calls are great
if by "imprecise" you mean "blatantly incorrect" then yes.
@Puppy lol ok
Thank god you're here to teach me all about functions in Haskell.
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz like nonexisting variables implicitly being nil
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ah. they so smart :)
Ell
Ell
14:29
@BartekBanachewicz how about this ...
Ell
Ell
Idk how to write it in Haskell so I'll do it I'd psuedo code
Guys. Is <---------- not clear enough? So the OP made a mistake to replace his real classname by class. Pfft. — sehe 5 secs ago
Ell
Ell
Funk don't_call_it(f)
End
Funk forever()
While true
End
End
don't_call_it(forever);
puts "Hello world!"
14:31
can you indent it?
Ell
Ell
I tried but I'm on mobile and it sucks
@Ell Hello world!
(Here's your output)
Ell
Ell
Lines 4,5 have indent 1
Funk don't_call_it(f)
End

Funk forever()
    While true
    End
End

don't_call_it(forever);

puts "Hello world!"
if (!can_indent_it()) invent_it();
14:32
@Ell I'm pretty sure that is not referentially transparent.
Ell
Ell
Everything else has indent 0
@Ell I assumed it was a poem
@Ell forever :: M (); if it was pure, then it could just be dunno let x = x
Ell
Ell
@AndyProwl that's how I'd see it
14:33
@R.MartinhoFernandes excuse me?
@Puppy Yes, it is.
Oh, Bartek is in a Haskell argument?
@BenjaminGruenbaum not really
@BenjaminGruenbaum Why is that a question?
we're talking about syntax ambiguities in function calls
14:34
Oh, ok.
@R.MartinhoFernandes because I read a few messages up and didn't understand the context - and also I was poking at Bartek for always talking about Haskell :D
Ell
Ell
Okay now robots messages are all invisible. I need to get out of bed...
@Ell Maybe that was the correct output
@Ell well so, in Haskell in particular, forever would be an IO action. A function can take this IO action and ignore it, or it can actually run it
To be fair - I like parenthesis
@BartekBanachewicz No, there's no "runIO".
14:36
@R.MartinhoFernandes it's in the GHC implementation vOv
(Well... shut up)
@BartekBanachewicz So which function can do it?
@R.MartinhoFernandes it's done on every component of main by the implementation
So which function does it?
14:37
well, you can't do it
you can tell someone else to do it for you
(It's unsafePerformIO and unsafeInterleaveIO, btw)
ah well those are weird
I love unsafePerformIO
Such a pragmatic hack
I haven't yet had a need for unsafePerformIO and I suppose I like to keep it that way
@BenjaminGruenbaum Haskell is full of those
when you actually start using the language it's amazing how practical it is
@BartekBanachewicz It's not that unusual. There are pretty mundane reasons to need it.
14:40
I didn't find it amazing at all - the thing that impressed me in Haskell is that it does a lot of things on its own so I don't have to like type inference and currying and it has useful comprehensions and concise function syntax that makes it easy to get things right.
@BenjaminGruenbaum TL;DR it's a well designed language
The fact you can interoperate with other programs that you know that are safe but can't prove it in Haskell is pragmatic - not amazing :) I like it.
@R.MartinhoFernandes well, like what?
@BartekBanachewicz naa, there's lots of legacy shit in Haskell - it would have looked very different today - although I love how Prelude is cleaned.
@BenjaminGruenbaum yeah, have you answered in the survey? it ends tomorrow
Also AMP coming in 7.10 <3
@BartekBanachewicz unwrapping foreigns that are pure.
@BartekBanachewicz I'm not sure - you mean the one that came in the mailing list? If yes then yes.
user1804599
@BenjaminGruenbaum TIL there is a Haskell community.
@BenjaminGruenbaum Is that sarcasm?
@BenjaminGruenbaum the one linked in the article you linked :P
14:43
@R.MartinhoFernandes not at all. Haskell is a 25 year old language - I'm sure scoping/namespacing would look very different today (inb4 lenses aren't really a good solution imo)
@R.MartinhoFernandes eh
@BenjaminGruenbaum Lenses are perfectly fine, it's record syntax that sucks
@BenjaminGruenbaum I mean the Prelude.
@BartekBanachewicz oh yeah, that's the same one. I got it at Haskell-cafe.
user1804599
@R.MartinhoFernandes then don't give them type -> IO a in the foreign declaration.
type String = [Char] nevar forgat
14:45
@R.MartinhoFernandes well - they are cleaning. So no, as someone who spends a lot of time following languages progress the fact they can do it is awesome in my opinion.
It surely won't break compatibility in new and inventive ways
it will a bit, but sometimes it's worth it
@BenjaminGruenbaum Oh. Misunderstanding, then. I thought you meant it was clean.
lol
I like when my code stops compiling for no reason
@CatPlusPlus yes cat, despite your idea that APIs should stay stable forever and ever, sometimes it's worth it
user1804599
14:47
@CatPlusPlus Then I guess today is your lucky day!
@CatPlusPlus it's not "no reason"
And then you wonder why I won't write any actual application in Haskell
@R.MartinhoFernandes no, it's not clean at all, but the fact they can agree as a community to clean something this standard and legacy is very nice in my opinion.
user1804599
just wait for Mill
user1804599
then all problems are gone
14:48
And the language too, next day
@CatPlusPlus because you're a lazy scrub. Save me the enterprisey talk about api stability and tooling.
user1804599
@CatPlusPlus :D :D :D
before you write 1MLoC apps, write 1kLoC ones
@райтфолд I'm thinking about things like JITted functions. Though that can be argued to not be mundane.
14:48
Yeah, I hope that in a year or two Haskell will be surpassed by a newer better FP language. It just has really good learning resources and I find it useful for some stuff. I don't code much Haskell at all but when I use it for things I enjoy it - the zen is to just give up as soon as I get configuration problems since those are a pain to debug in Haskell.
guys, can I take back a character after writing it to a file stream?
No
It's gone forever
user1804599
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh I see.
@bluefog char f (std::ostream& s, char c) { s << c; return c; }
if you want you can make more copies just in case:
user1804599
@bluefog write a file stream wrapper that allows that.
14:49
FOREVER
char a = 'x';
char b = a, c = a, d = a;
@BartekBanachewicz I think he wants to "cancel" a write.
It's important to have backups of all your characters
@BenjaminGruenbaum Exactly
14:50
@CatPlusPlus all 255 of them
All 2^24 of them
Or was it 21
user1804599
@bluefog you can seek -1 with relative whence and then overwrite it.
I don't remember
user1804599
It won't be gone if you don't overwrite it, though.
@bluefog you need haskell's acme-realworld package
14:50
overwrite with EOF?
that way you save the state of the universe before printing
and after you print you can get the universe back to where it was
@CatPlusPlus Your GM thanks you.
@bluefog well, as others have pointed out wrap the stream in a stream that does not write the last character written. (So when you write "abc" - "ab" are actually written and c is kept in a buffer) - just make sure to write the last character before closing the stream (in the destructor if that's your thing).
@R.MartinhoFernandes And then rocks fall
Ok. Thanks all. Specially @BartekBanachewicz
9
user1804599
@bluefog oh come on I was just trying to be funny. Write an adapter like benji said. Or simply write to memory and then batch the write to console
user1804599
user1804599
gravatar borken
14:53
working fine for me
fine here
user1804599
Accountant software API also borken
user1804599
everything borken i wanna go home
ITT it's rightfold that's broken
can't even spell his own name in the correct alphabet
14:56
@R.MartinhoFernandes odd masturbatory paragraph regarding the collators skills at editing
Ell
Ell
I missed breakfast time
I missed lunch time even
I'll call it a late lunch
lol

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