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10:00 AM
It's called 6in4, in fact
 
doc
@CatPlusPlus not it's not the same thing
 
what is that smell? oh... it's pointless crap
 
@doc I can think of two interpretations of what you're saying. one is pretty much exactly 6in4, the other is "break the entire internet in 3 different ways"
 
I like the sound of the second one.
 
If you send an IPv4 packet, and it contains extra data that the recipient can use to find the correct IPv6 host, and IPv6-unaware routers along the way just route based on the IPv4 header, then yes, that is exactly what 6in4 tunelling is
 
doc
10:02 AM
@jalf meh I rly don't understand why people are so ofensive when it comes to discussing ideas
@jalf yes tunneling solves same problem, but in a different way
 
-1
Q: Dictionaries In C++

user3262355I have just started to learn C++ and am fluent at coding in Python. I wanted to make one of my old python programs again in C++ and it's a word jumble one. In the Python program, you can choose the mode (easy, medium or hard). That aside each mode has it's own dictionary of words which the progra...

This guy has no clue.
 
doc
@jalf it's like you compare inheritance with composition in C++
 
woot
down to only 51 tests broken.
 
doc
@jalf what I'm talking about is more like inheritance, while tunnelling is composition
 
you never feel so bad about running tests in parallel as when they crash so fast you can't click "Abort" fast enough.
 
10:05 AM
What
 
@StackedCrooked NoRouter seems like a better name indeed. Thanks.
 
Good clicking yo
 
@Puppy You need to train for improved clicking speed.
 
@StackedCrooked It would be easier if they all popped up the same dialog with "close" in the same place
 
@Puppy Ctrl+Break
 
10:10 AM
71
Q: Was this 4th grader's creationist quiz real?

TomOnTimeIs this 4th grader's creationist quiz real or a hoax?

 
doc
@CatPlusPlus they would be not limitted to ipv4. It would form something like IPv6 network inside IPv4. To the point when all hosts would be IPv6 aware so it could switch to IPv6.
@CatPlusPlus all hosts in section.
I know it has drawbacks, but also advantages
 
Pray tell how it's not tunnelling
Or not I don't care, let's talk about stupid religious people (how redundant)
 
going to implement one of these for the first time en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstract_syntax_tree
so excited
 
It's a tree
 
lol it's just an AST
 
10:14 AM
It's about as exciting as Puppy's farts
 
by the way I'm going for a piss, @CatPlusPlus, want a video?
 
yeah I'll take dink's way of parsing scripts line by line on each update and analyzing each line constantly and turn it into a tree structure that's only built once
well it's only an AST
but I've never used one before
 
@AlexM. On each update?
 
update/tick/whatever
 
10:16 AM
Why would you do that
Compile once
 
that's how it was done, no idea
 
Straight interpreters are slow and dumb and nobody does them
 
everybody knows that using JIT is the way to go
 
doc
@CatPlusPlus I think it depends (interpreters)
 
for each script:
  for each line in script:
     if line == something:
	...
     else if line == something else:
	...
there's literally thousands of lines of this
 
10:18 AM
Yeah no don't do that
 
executed on each tick
 
doc
But if your script is only run once then there's no point to compile it
 
It's still better to compile it, because the overhead is not much more and even one-off things have dependencies that can be precompiled and cached
@AlexM. Compile on load, and then just execute the scripts (you can start by reducing the AST but really just go with bytecode)
 
doesn't that mean I need to define my own bytecode?
 
Esp parsing on every tick is just a waste of time
 
10:20 AM
that sounds hardcore
 
It's not as hard as it sounds, you can have very very specialised opcodes
But yeah start with not doing parsing on every tick
Create the AST once and then use that
 
yup that's what I'll throw away first, and use a simple AST in the beginning
I guess I can try bytecode later
 
doc
@AlexM. can't you use tool like YACC/FLEX?
 
AST should also work well with calling methods from script B from within script A
 
Tick?
 
10:23 AM
dink has this supported
 
@doc That's orthogonal to the issue, you need to construct AST manually with them either way
Also probably Bison and not Yacc
 
@VáclavZeman the update loop updates the state of the game X times per second
 
(They're also not very friendly)
 
each particular execution of the loop is called tick
 
@VáclavZeman Main loop iteration
 
10:23 AM
@AlexM. Ah.
 
doc
@CatPlusPlus but they have specialized syntax for that and you don't need to write your own opcodes
 
Uh
@AlexM. That belongs in the executor not AST really
 
can't a node that says an external method has to be called point towards the other method? or should the executor search for that method given some info by the node?
 
Just search by name
 
typically in a super-dynamic language you look up by name
 
doc
10:25 AM
like Smalltalk
 
If you want to be fancy then intern the names and search by hash
 
doc
this is wrong IMO
 
that should be trivial, the scripts define the operation as call("method name", "script name");
where script name is also the name of the file from which the script is being parsed
 
Are you reimplementing DinkC btw
Because it's not a very good language :v
 
I'm trying to refactor dink's sources and extend the engine while at it
 
10:27 AM
just use LuaJIT if you're desperate for speed for some reason
 
I'm having fun so far :D
 
Make it work then worry about making it fast
There's plenty of ways to get JIT
 
doc
"Premature optimization is the root of all evil"
 
like LLVM
 
Or Mono
Or JVM
Or whatever
 
10:27 AM
I thought Mono was built on LLVM now?
 
There are some standalone JITs too
 
not that crazy about speed, an AST should be enough
 
@Puppy Dunno
 
the bottleneck right now is processing each string again and again and again on each tick
 
but of course, something like LuaJIT is actually a working implementation of Lua.
so IYAM it's not really covered under premature optimization
 
doc
10:29 AM
@AlexM. why do you do that? Just for fun)
 
IIRC there was some guy who tried (or succeeded) to make dink scriptable in lua
 
doc
?
 
yes
 
Original Dink sources are hideous
 
yeah they are
 
10:31 AM
It's basically two or three files that total thousands of SLOC of "C++"
It's not even formatted properly
 
@doc it is not "offensive" to point out that an idea will not work
 
@jalf you're offensive!
 
once I stopped allowing it to constantly edit the same place in memory over N thousand method calls regarding script parsing, the performance hit was pretty noticeable
 
doc
@jalf meh IMO it would work, but I really don't care
 
mainly because it doesn't try to remember anything it parsed before
 
10:33 AM
@doc you clearly do care
 
and the heap & stack corruptions are still there, didn't manage to find the issues yet
 
There we go. The "I don't care" dance, once again.
 
@doc how does it differ, then? In tunneling, you send an IPv4 packet, and the receiver looks inside it and produces an IPv6 packet to forward to the destination. In your scheme, the exact same thing happens.
 
But with magic!
 
Magic. Is there any problem it can't solve?
 
doc
10:34 AM
@jalf no I don't. It would work the other way around. Receiver sends IPv4 packet with additional data instead of IPv4 packet with ipv6 in it
 
@jalf Rampaging space wizards
 
@doc how can the receiver send anything?
 
doc
@jalf sry typo. Sender of course
 
@doc And what's that "additional data"
 
@doc and how is an "IPv4 packet with additional data" different from an IPv4 packet with IPv6 in it"?
 
10:36 AM
@jalf The additional data is in the header (no idea where exactly), not in payload!
 
it's just "additional data" -> "IPv6"
 
@Griwes and how does that change anything?
 
It doesn't, that's the beauty of it!
 
It must surely be more useful than proper encapsulation when encountering IPv4-only routers!
@jalf I guess sarcastic voice is not audible when writing text on the internet.
 
Silly Griwes.
 
doc
10:37 AM
jzs it's just loose idea, I don't think about it every night)
 
Why is that relevant?>
 
1 min ago, by jalf
@Griwes and how does that change anything?
1 min ago, by Cat Plus Plus
It doesn't, that's the beauty of it!
 
doc
Fresh photos from Rosetta mission esa.int/spaceinimages/Missions/Rosetta
@Griwes data encapsulation would be proper as well. The advantage is that it could handle IPv4 traffic automatically. But I don't care.
 
@doc but... we can already handle IPv4 traffic automatically
 
@doc lolwat
what @jalf said
 
doc
10:43 AM
@jalf not without some additional configuration of tunnels
 
@doc no, the tunnels are only necessary for routing IPv6 data over an IPv4 network. Not for handling IPv4 traffic
 
lol (NSFW)
7
 
doc
@jalf of course
@jalf if you still want understand what I mean then as I told take as example difference between inheritance and composition.
 
What is the difference, concretely
 
doc
IPv6 packet could be valid IPv4 packet
 
10:49 AM
How
 
Good luck with doing that.
 
doc
By extending IPv4 packet with additional data
 
You can't do that, because nothing will understand it.
 
doc
@Griwes And am I going to do that?
Just discussing ideas
 
And we are telling you that this is tunnelling, just done in a far more silly way (that goes against what the network protocol stack does generally).
 
doc
10:52 AM
@Griwes and I am saying you it's not tunnelling
 
Where's the difference?
 
doc
@Griwes jzs.... read above
 
You moved the nicely encapsulated IPv6 data into header.
The principle is still the exact same one, just far, far less elegant.
 
doc
@Griwes the point is that ipv4 address can work as multicast for some ipv6 aware hosts
for example
 
That's useless.
 
doc
10:55 AM
@Griwes IMO it's useful
@Griwes it could work like auto-NAT
 
What does that buy you? Killing all the networks by needlessly multicasting things?
You seem to think that tunnelling is not enough.
I fail to see where did that point of view originated.
 
doc
@Griwes First of all I am not saying that tunneling is worse, just discussing another possibility
 
So... your "possibility" offers a feature that's useless.
 
doc
@Griwes it has advantages thos
 
Nice.
"A has advantages over B" => "B is worse than A"
Get your logic straight.
 
doc
10:58 AM
@Griwes they are not useless. I think your approach is to just blame the other point of view
I dont see the will to see my point of view
so the whole discussion is useless
 
@doc Give me one practical use of this misfeature of yours.
 
@Griwes was this an exemplification of doc's logic or yours?
 
@AlexM. The "common sense" based logic.
 
because you need to apply context on at least one side
B is worse than A only if the advantages A has in the given context matter
 
@AlexM. Given just that single assumption ("A has advantages"), that implication is true.
 
doc
11:01 AM
@Griwes you can use existing IPV4 routers to trace IPv6 traffic with NAT-like feature.
where IPV4 address groups some IPv6 hosts
then you can switch that router to IPv6
 
@doc you can do that already. That's what tunneling does.
 
doc
which virtually works like changing hub to switch for ethernet layer
 
So, tunnelling.
This is how letting people having no clue about networking talk about networking ends.
 
doc
@Griwes oh...
@Griwes dont let me talk then
 
trust me, some very clever people have thought long and hard about how to make the IPv6 transition as painless as possible
the problem is it cannot be done in a painless manner
 
doc
11:06 AM
@jalf tunneling is not same thing, it is less transparent
 
I'm sure the best discoveries have been made in a "it cannot be done" context.
 
doc
@jalf that doesn't matter
 
@doc This has the same fucking level of transparency.
 
I tried to make sense of the code mess. As you can see, proper indentation makes it clearer what is wrong — sehe 44 secs ago
 
@doc when you reply to a message, use the little broken arrow that apepars when you mouseover their message please!
then we can see what you're replying to
 
11:07 AM
Only in your way you have additional fields that mean nothing to older devices.
 
doc
@Griwes am I able to speak?
 
@doc you're speaking now, so yes?
 
@doc No, because you have no clue about what you are talking about.
 
doc
@jalf but according to Griwes I should be not allowed
 
Also in this case, less transparent = worse.
 
11:08 AM
I see the lounge is being its friendly self
@doc Actually, he said "this is how it ends"
 
@doc quit acting butthurt. If you have something to say, say it.
 
IDK if it's an "act".
 
@doc in which situation would your scheme behave better than existing tunnelling schemes?
 
@doc Grow up, please.
 
what would a network need to look like in order for your idea to exhibit better behavior?
 
doc
11:09 AM
@jalf why should I convince you?
 
@Griwes I guess
 
@doc because you believe in your idea
 
I still think in a tech related context like this one context should be applied
some solutions may be "better" than others, but their implementation may be too costly to be feasible
 
Then they're not better
 
And because if a technical idea cannot convince technical people on its technical merits, then it is not a very good idea.
 
11:10 AM
and as such they're not exactly better in the given context
@CatPlusPlus yeah, exactly
 
doc
@jalf no I don't. It's just loose idea. If one can't find it usefull then I dont see the point to convince him
 
hence my question: in what kind of network setup would your idea work better than what we have today?
 
they're better if you ignore context and talk about absolute advantages
 
3 mins ago, by jalf
@doc when you reply to a message, use the little broken arrow that apepars when you mouseover their message please!
PLEASE!
 
The benefit is
and also
 
11:11 AM
You forgot about
 
and neglected to mention
 
dat
 
my future avatar will be webgl powered and will run a web build of an unreal engine game
man, imagine if our avatars were really live webcam feeds
any one of us would write something like "hahaha lol"
but then the feed would betray the reaction
the internet would never be the same again
 
@AlexM. no it would suck horridly
 
11:20 AM
of course it would
 
doc
Today webbrowser centrism makes me sick
Soon people will start a web browser instead entire OS
 
I bet we'd see puppy laughing like crazy on his seat, while writing a message like "that joke is shit"
 
doc
www.controlpanel.com
 
@doc with chrome OS, the OS is a browser
 
doc
@AlexM. aye dunno how Firefox OS will look like too
 
11:22 AM
spoiler: it will be a browser in disguise too
 
@AlexM. "In Soviet Operating System, Browser Searches you!"
oh right... that's not funny for a romainian
 
doc
This is not happening :o
 
@Mgetz not biting
 
doc
The point is such applications like this chat should not exist
Total misuse of javascript
Some people forget that using Javascript to build efficient applications is a contradiction
Javascript should not eat a lot of resource to keep webbrowser responsible
 
Some people forget that the entire CS is duct taped together.
And decide to bitch about it instead of doing something constructive.
 
doc
11:27 AM
@Griwes is this addressed to me?
 
@doc what does that even mean
 
@doc Is that a rhetoric question?
 
doc
@AlexM. this means that Javascript should never be used to build complex applications
 
@doc the web browser should be responsive no matter what javascript code does
@doc yes, using javascript to build useful things? What a misuse. What are people thinking?
 
doc
@Griwes it seems that I somehow became your personal enemy. How do you know if I am not doing something constructive?
In fact I do so get lost man
 
11:30 AM
19 mins ago, by jalf
3 mins ago, by jalf
@doc when you reply to a message, use the little broken arrow that apepars when you mouseover their message please!
 
@doc What
 
jesus fucking christ how hard can it be
(just because I can't spell "appears")
 
@doc lol
 
but if you are going to use this chat to complain about everything in the world, then at least use it properly. When you respond to messages, do it correctly, so the rest of us can see what you are responding to!
 
Maan gotta get servers up and running
Someone write Salt states for me
 
11:32 AM
doc reminds me of AKK
 
doc
@jalf is it possible to use that arrow with keyboard only?
 
@doc I just can't imagine someone not understanding what tunnelling does doing anything constructive.
2 mins ago, by jalf
19 mins ago, by jalf
3 mins ago, by jalf
@doc when you reply to a message, use the little broken arrow that apepars when you mouseover their message please!
 
You can stop that now
 
doc
@Griwes And how did you come to conclusion that I dont understand what tunneling does?
 
@jalf appear -> app + pear, that's how you remember it
 
11:34 AM
@doc FOR FUCKS SAKE!!!!!!
 
@doc You said it didn't do what your "alternative" does, while both do the exact same thing, just one of them is obviously better encapsulated.
 
(he is a troll, guise)
(get your shit together)
 
1 message moved to bin
Quote the same fucking thing instead of nesting this shit
 
@CatPlusPlus Oh come on.
 
doc
@jalf is it possible to use that arrow with keyboard? Using mouse in chat seems awkard to me
 
11:35 AM
@CatPlusPlus but he clearly doesn't see it if it doesn't take up 80% of the screen
It was intentional
 
Me telling you to stop was intentional too :v
 
@doc you can start the message with :<message-id> :)
 
doc
@jalf this helps indeed....
 
@doc Yeah, I know... :p
but at least we can see what you're replying to now
 
Now I understand why sehe has it so that the message id appears on each message
Actually, is there some kind of plugin for that?
 
doc
11:41 AM
@Griwes yes they solve the same problem in different way.
@Griwes You never met two implementations solving same problem?
@Griwes Really tired explaining it. Think what you want, I don't care.
 
First, one of them (yours) is obviously inferior, because it fails to encapsulate the inner message properly.
Second, you decided to explain to us how yours provides more than tunnelling.
 
@Jefffrey greasemonkey or something like that
 
doc
@Griwes I use chat for fun. You seem to try to insult me in childish manner.
 
@doc It is still not an insult to say that your idea doesn't work
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix Ended up using this
 
11:47 AM
12 mins ago, by Jefffrey
(he is a troll, guise)
 
doc
@jalf @jalf c'mon. I know what the talk was about
 
I vaguely remember myself trolling Vlad on std-proposal to the point when he stated that "your idea is inferior" is an insult.
@doc Your idea is inferior to the existing solution.
In what universe is that an insult?
 
doc
@Griwes grow up
 
lol
 
@doc I don't know which kindergarten you're in, but if you think people are insulting you, then you need to grow up
Quit acting so goddamn butthurt
it's annoying
 
11:49 AM
I'm bored. What do.
 
if you can't cope with a conversation where people don't slather your every statement with inane (and insincere) praise, then this chat is not the place for you
 
@Jefffrey Write a proper I/O library for C++.
 
doc
@Jefffrey Watch porn)
 
1 min ago, by doc
@Griwes grow up
 
@Griwes Just use printf.
 
11:50 AM
That's neither proper nor C++.
Also I said I/O, not formatting.
I can't English.
 
I'm not smart enough OK!?!
2
 
No, not ok
 
I think I'm going to play minecraft or sleep.
 
Git gud scrub
 
c'mon jeff, an I/O lib is not that hard to do
 
11:51 AM
Just painfully boring
 
> proper I/O lib
 
@AlexM. It is.
 
> proper
 
No-one did it right to date.
 
last time I dropped my fork on the floor I went after it and when I got it back I realized I had implemented a proper I/O lib accidentally
I was joking
I need joke tags
 
Ell
11:52 AM
:P
 
terrible
 
Ell
Or better jokes?
 
well ok
you do it better
 
@AlexM.
 
Ell
idk what makes an I/O lib good
I think boost's filter & sink & source thing is good though
 
11:53 AM
No-one knows, becuase it doesn't exist.
 
Sure does
 
Ell
@Jefffrey Which bit?
 
@Jefffrey I've been meaning to ask a question about snprintf and localization, e.g. is there any C++ equivalent that allows for locale specific ordering AND formatting at the same time.
 
@Ell The "Sure does" bit.
 
11:57 AM
@Mgetz Boost.Format?
 
Ell
Well I suck at web.
there is supposed to be one border :S
ah wait. I'm dumb
 
@milleniumbug ooh shiny
 
@Mgetz v0v
 

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