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Xeo
8:00 PM
mh
 
really now that I finished my big refactor I can easily implement stuff like that
it's just not a high priority right now
 
Xeo
So you're changing void to be Unit?
 
I want to focus on the compiler's reliability and usability right now
 
I wonder why C error reporting deals with integers only.
 
user1804599
void sucks. Have Unit.
 
8:00 PM
is there something wrong with like
 
user1804599
void requires special cases everywhere.
 
struct error { int code; const char* message; };?
 
@Xeo Like I said, it's a low-prio. I probably won't change the name, but semantically, it will likely behave a whole lot more like Unit.
 
Xeo
Who deallocates message?
 
user3010322
Messes up "compact programming"
 
Xeo
8:01 PM
@DeadMG That's bad :/
void is emptiness, not unitness
 
@Xeo who deallocates string literals?
 
user3010322
@Xeo Nobody should ever, because it's a literal?
 
returning struct is new
 
Xeo
@Rapptz Who says it's necessarily a string literal?
 
user3010322
@Xeo It should be, to prevent hell in a handbaskey
 
user1804599
8:02 PM
@Rapptz because a function Int -> String suffices.
 
as in less than 30 years old
 
user1804599
I wish I had a blackboard in my room.
 
@Xeo otoh unit type is more useful than uninhabited type
 
Xeo
Right, but he should just change the name :P
 
@Xeo I really don't think it matters. In most cases, it will behave exactly the same because in most cases, void and unit are identical. If you ever have to stop and think about it because it didn't just work in the few other cases, then I've probably screwed up.
 
8:04 PM
@Rapptz It's even more boilerplate
 
user1804599
template<typename F>
auto foo(F f) {
    auto result = f(); // hey this is void fuck you
    // do something
    return result;
}
 
Voidberg
 
user1804599
Occurred to me often enough. :v
 
user1804599
Yeah, at least call it zoid.
 
ultimately
 
Xeo
8:06 PM
@DeadMG passing void() to something will just feel weird, due to connotations with the name
 
Yeah don't call it void if it's unit
 
Unit might be a better name for it, but I value the compatibility of calling it void and the value of the change is to make people think about it less, not more.
@Xeo Why would you pass void() to something explicitly?
 
user1804599
You get used to the name unit after working with it for five minutes.
 
Xeo
Reasons
 
the main reason I'm making the change is because you passed f() in a template and f happened to return void.
 
user3010322
8:07 PM
They're both 4 letters, so I don't care.~
 
Xeo
Though maybe it's not that much of an issue since Wide has zero-parameter functions
 
Unit is most useful when you get rid of statements and make everything an expression
Then expressions that are most statement-like can still return a value
 
user1804599
Unit is good because you have one fewer special case to worry about.
 
user1804599
It’s just a normal data type, unlike void which is special.
 
Xeo
Expressions > statements <3
 
user1804599
8:08 PM
The only special case perhaps would be return => return ();, but it’s worth the trouble IMO.
 
Yeah I'll be hard pressed to come up with a use-case that clearly calls for uninhabited type over unit type
 
Xeo
@rightfold Implicit unit construction!
 
That's syntactic special case, not semantic one
 
user1804599
@Xeo Yeah, that’s the special case.
 
user1804599
@CatPlusPlus Yes, so it’s not a problem as much.
 
8:09 PM
Yesss
Little unitsss
 
user1804599
Units of measurement.
 
Xeo
@CatPlusPlus There's a void package for Haskell, not sure what exactly it's useful for, though
 
Oh, uninhabited types are good for type-level tagging
 
@Xeo do you only like rum cocktails, or just rum too?
 
But on the value level eh
 
user1804599
8:10 PM
What value level? :P
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Hm, most pure rum I've tasted didn't quite taste right.
Though that really old Havana Club I had once was nice
 
44
Q: What's the absurd function in Data.Void useful for?

Luis CasillasThe absurd function in Data.Void has the following signature, where Void is the logically uninhabited type exported by that package: -- | Since 'Void' values logically don't exist, this witnesses the logical -- reasoning tool of \"ex falso quodlibet\". absurd :: Void -> a I do know enough logi...

 
@Xeo I know a place you might want to visit.
 
man I suck at designing UI
 
user1804599
I don’t.
 
Xeo
8:13 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oho?
 
@rightfold really?
 
user1804599
Yes.
 
designing UI in html?
 
user1804599
Yes. :[
 
user1804599
Use Bootstrap.
 
8:14 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Akihabara
 
Xeo
haha
 
Is "Oho" a place or "uh oh"?
 
user1804599
Allahu Akihabara.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Expression of surprise
 
I'm thinking about it except I'm making a painting program bootstrap isn't helpful there
 
Xeo
8:14 PM
as in, "oooh, tell me more"
 
user1804599
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix I am going to poop. BRB.
 
Ah.
Lemme get a pic.
 
@rightfold painter.vosnax.ru/#cpp make sure you add the hashtag if you copy the url to be in the same room
 
Xeo
... fancy
 
8:20 PM
Now I'll be off to enjoy the rum. ;)
 
Xeo
heh, hf
 
user3010322
... Huh.
 
ah and it might not work on IE/Chrome old/Safari
 
How can I get gdb -tui to work on Windows? :c
Or something similar.
 
I've used cygwin in the past. Otherwise Vbox.
Haven't played with mingw though.
You probably want to debug VS compiled code?
 
8:27 PM
@Rapptz Run it on a VM
 
@StackedCrooked nah
 
All development in a VM all the time
 
Then virtual box should be fine.
 
Vagrant is the best thing ever
 
what is that?
 
8:30 PM
@FredOverflow He was one of my professors, too.
 
a tool to quickly create disposable development environments?
 
ok, now I have working clang-3.5 on ubuntu
 
Hey ho.
 
right
now I have 7 test failures on Linux, same as Windows.
 
8:35 PM
ArmA 3 developer started a modding contest and the winner will receive a one week trip to a real conflict zone
 
@AlexM. Is that the kind of modding contest where you actually want to be victorious.
 
it's very close to my theory that the most realistic war shooter will be one that nobody would want to ever play
excepting the warmongers I guess
 
hmm
I dun fucked up
 
war is so primitive
 
with a picture like that, yeah
 
8:39 PM
@AlexM. It's actually highly advanced.
 
Did you ever see the talk about the "Secret history of Silicon Valley"?
It shows how the digital revolution can be traced back to WWII.
 
it's an event during which we gladly abandon all that differentiates us from other animals and just follow our instincts
 
Very fascinating.
 
I'm mostly talking about the average soldiers
 
@AlexM. No, war requires strategy.
 
8:41 PM
24 secs ago, by Alex M.
I'm mostly talking about the average soldiers
left alone, eventually they'll all kill and rape for their pleasure, whenever they take settlements
 
@DeadMG same number, or same tests :)
@AlexM. wut
 
wut wut
 
Soldiers of love.
 
@sehe Same tests.
 
Honestly, I think modern history teaches us that soldiers increasingly question the wars they're "being made" to fight. Of course, there are wars in which the army does the power grab itself
@DeadMG :)
 
8:43 PM
a couple I'm gonna remove, a couple more I'm gonna refactor (I cut the feature they're testing), one is for a feature I never implemented, and one more is a genuine failure
 
The Nanking Massacre, also known as the Rape of Nanking, was an episode of mass murder and mass rape committed by Japanese troops against Nanking (current official spelling: Nanjing) during the Second Sino-Japanese War. The massacre occurred during a six-week period starting December 13, 1937, the day that the Japanese captured Nanking, which was then the Chinese capital. (See Republic of China). During this period, tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of Chinese civilians and disarmed combatants were murdered by soldiers of the Imperial Japanese Army. Widespread rape and...
I just don't see such things as something worthy of a "modern" and "strategical" war
 
I'm not aware (tbh not informed) about whether the German soldiers committed many war crimes in occupied territory or not.
 
it's just people given freedom
 
@melak47 Eh, it's in a pitiful state atm, I started with nanovg and started refactoring. And since I wasn't done when I stopped it's halfway between their design and mine =/
 
The is a wartime account of a contest between two Japanese Army officers during the Japanese invasion of China over who could first kill 100 people with a sword. The two officers were later executed on war crimes charges for their involvement. Since that time, the historicity of the event has been hotly contested, often by Japanese nationalists or revisionist historians seeking to invalidate the historiography of the Nanking Massacre. The issue first emerged from a series of wartime Japanese-language newspaper articles, which celebrated the "heroic" killing of Chinese by two Japanese of...
it's true that "The two officers were later executed on war crimes charges for their involvement." but this does not invalidate my point
 
8:46 PM
@AlexM. it isn't. It's people deprived of perspective
> the historicity of the event has been hotly contested
 
Japan had a warrior culture back then. They believed that surrender was the lowest thing one could do and basically meant giving the opponent the right to do with you what they want.
Doesn't justify their actions though.
 
of course it doesn't
 
I'm finding it difficult to resist the urge to close this as a dupe of: stackoverflow.com/questions/22780466/…Mysticial 26 secs ago
 
Just saying that it's not the most representative example.
 
if it's in one's nature to want to kill others, one will kill others if given the chance
and war gives this chance to plenty of people
 
8:48 PM
@AlexM. Japan was nuked twice in order to force them to stop the slaughter.
This is the only time nukes were used in war.
I think this makes it exceptional.
 
what do you mean by exceptional?
 
That this was not a normal war situation.
 
still not sure what you mean
the Japanese didn't massacre Nanking because the US nuked them
 
It's the other way around.
And the nukes did succeed in making them stop.
 
@StackedCrooked I'm pretty sure the massacre did end before the nukes
 
8:52 PM
didn't see this linked here before
 
yup, but I don't think considering this an exceptional war situation justifies their actions
 
There is nothing on earth that could have justified the nukes
 
not the nukes
man I'm confused
why were the nukes brought up again?
 
Well the only reason I can see for using nukes was to make the USA looks strong in front of URSS
 
> A large portion of these rapes were systematized in a process where soldiers would search door-to-door for young girls, with many women taken captive and gang raped. The women were often killed immediately after being raped, often through explicit mutilation or by stabbing a bayonet, long stick of bamboo, or other objects into the vagina. Young children were not exempt from these atrocities, and were cut open to allow Japanese soldiers to rape them.
warrior culture lol
 
8:56 PM
the word culture does not mean it's good
 
well, this is a cheerful discussion I've popped into
nukes and rape?
:D
 
> Young children ... were cut open to allow Japanese soldiers to rape them.
 
Not sure what the point is.
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix I'm not so sure.
 
@jalf well it all started from me saying war gives the opportunity to do lots of unwanted things to too many people
and from those people's perspective I see war as the most primitive activity man ever engages in
 
8:59 PM
Very well.
Ah well..
 
I'm not sure that "doing unwanted things to others" is particularly primitive
 
@jalf the rape followed by murder is against biological logic I agree
 
bio-logic
 
That's a word?
 
no
 
9:03 PM
Primitive can also mean things like sleep.
 
and sex
 
giving in to your instincts to kill and rape seems primitive to me
not sure what other words to use
 
@AlexM. idiotic might be the word
 
The instinct to kill is mainly to get something in return. Not just the pleasure of killing.
 
9:04 PM
Let say that some people evolved in an idiotic way... they're not primitive just advanced idiots
 
@Jefffrey yeah but if it's just that why do you choose to further mutilate the body
 
@AlexM. I dunno, most animals don't tend to murder each others just for the heck of it. That seems like quite a civilised thing to do, IMO ;)
 
@Jefffrey the instinct to kill is usually for protection/feeding
 
So this is actually a discussion about the meaning of the word "primitive"?
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix yup
 
9:05 PM
@jalf The only time it makes sense is for the girl to kill the guy and eat him for the nutrients.
 
@StackedCrooked it is now!
 
Java has primitive datatypes.
 
@StackedCrooked but do they kill each others?
 
They rape your kids.
 
aha
 
9:06 PM
Are lists a primitive data type in Haskell? Nobody knows.
 
@jalf lol I guess that's true
 
@Mysticial the fuck
 
@Jefffrey Spiders do that.
 
@jalf I suspect the idea was that giving into your dark desires without applying any sort of social etiquette to your behaviour is where the "primitive" nomenclature originates.
 
If killing for the heck of it was primitive... we would all want to kill for the heck of it...
 
Xeo
9:08 PM
Argh, I'm so damned tempted to just read the NGNL Light Novel...
 
@Xeo Don't give into your primitive dark desires.
 
Xeo
@Jefffrey Mantis, spider, some fish species.
 
Such a nice world we live in.
 
Humans are one of the few species where parents are expected to live long enough to become grandparents and help take care of the grandchildren.
 
Xeo
@Mysticial But... dat episode, dat cliffhanger!
 
9:10 PM
IIRC, I read somewhere that menopause has something to do with this in the evolution.
@Xeo Yeah, fuck you. :D
I woke up at 7am today for jury duty that I didn't have to go to.
 
@Mysticial Why?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I was put on standby the night before and they didn't give a time. I could've been very early in the morning.
 
A file containing random data (i.e. created by reading from /dev/random) will not shrink if you try to compress it. This makes sense because compression algorithms require repetition or predictable patterns in the data.
Can you turn this logic around and say that a (perfectly) compressed file is a good source of random data?
 
@Mysticial I see.
 
okeydokey
OverloadSet* Analyzer::GetOverloadSet(std::unordered_set<clang::NamedDecl*> decls, ClangTU* from, Type* context) {
    if (clang_overload_sets.find(decls) == clang_overload_sets.end()
     || clang_overload_sets[decls].find(context) == clang_overload_sets[decls].end()) {
        clang_overload_sets[decls][context] = Wide::Memory::MakeUnique<OverloadSet>(std::move(decls), from, context, *this);
    }
    return clang_overload_sets[decls][context].get();
}
how the fuck can this, ever, erase anything from in the unordered_map clang_overload_sets.
 
9:18 PM
@StackedCrooked No?
 
I pretty clearly check that there is nothing in there.
quite explicitly in fact.
 
@DeadMG so much going on in these lines
 
@StackedCrooked Yeah. Pi has an infinite amount of data that can be compressed down to a single character. :)
 
too bad C++ can't get where
 
HOLY FUCK, what happened to TrueCrypt?! truecrypt.sourceforge.net
Is this a scam on the SF site only?
 
9:20 PM
@sehe what
 
oh, right.
I move from decls and I look up in the map using decls at the same time.
want to buy: Wide's expression evaluation ordering guarantees.
 
> As of now, the authenticity of the announcement has not been confirmed.
 
@StackedCrooked holy cow. this is a major earth quake in crypto/privacy land
 
9:23 PM
4
Q: Is TrueCrypt not secure now and I should stop using it?

user11153Offical TrueCrypt webpage now states: WARNING: Using TrueCrypt is not secure as it may contain unfixed security issues This page exists only to help migrate existing data encrypted by TrueCrypt. The development of TrueCrypt was ended in 5/2014 after Microsoft terminated suppor...

 
so there's LUKS now
 
> Still, the very sudden and unexpected announcement is definitely worth some amount of skepticism.
 
Always was
 
imma log in to security.se just to upvote
 
I like SO.
It's not perfect but I like the way it is.
 
9:25 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Because your mom would be so devastated
6
 
Could be a lot worse.
 
...
 
so um
bitlocker is builtin, which is nice
 
Xeo
@DeadMG That doesn't help for the last line
 
@sehe ouch :)
 
Xeo
9:26 PM
since you're reusing the moved-from decls.
 
but I'm not sure if I would use it
 
@Xeo Right. I should just bite the copy here. The move is compulsive habit rather than semantically necessary.
 
#TrueCrypt TR;DL: Website is hacked, Keys are compromised, Binary can only decode data and may contain trojan. Please do not DL/run it.
I vote on that.
 
Xeo
@DeadMG just save the pointer?
 
It's not easy to insult someone by pulling a "your mom" on their mother.
 
9:27 PM
@Xeo Micro-optimization. It's much clearer to just not erase it.
 
TrueCrypt is insecure. Switch to NSACrypt (approved by America's cryptography experts) *IMMEDIATELY*
 
Xeo
@DeadMG eh
 
didn't the NSA "convince" a company to install a backdoor in their software?
 
"a company"?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah, everyone's gonna trust NSACrypt
 
Xeo
9:29 PM
auto& set = clang_overload_set[decls][context];
set = MakeUnique<...>(std::move(decls), ...);
return set;
 
More like, "every company in the US".
 
Xeo
@DeadMG ^ much clearer
 
@DeadMG they already do
@sehe it's unfair that it has more stars than the original post
Finding "people provably connected" has always been hard. The TrueCrypt team has operated largely in anonymity for years. — Iszi 23 secs ago
woah
I didn't think it went that far.
 
maybe TrueCrypt was actually created by NSA
 
@BartekBanachewicz but if they work in anonymity... anybody in their team could be from the NSA?
 
9:31 PM
well, they could
 
mannnnn... just realized why I couldn't detect my phone connected to the computer... it wasn't connected
 
but then again, last audits didn't really discover any major issues
new keys were released 7 hours ago
and new software 3 hours ago
well.
I don't believe it
they would warn first
give a notice
not just shut down the site like that
people still need support, manuals, stuff etc to migrate
I believe there are systems using truecrypt that can't be migrated overnight
 
@BartekBanachewicz why do you think that? Haven't they always been operating with pretty sketchy (and anonymous) communications?
 
MaybeCrypt
 
@jalf that's different than shutting a site in such a way.
also the matter of different signature keys still stands
 
9:35 PM
@Xeo: Still, what really matters is that I have the debugging power to solve problems like this pretty easily. In most cases I can catch incorrect destruction the moment it happens and get a stacktrace. If there are more time bombs like that waiting to go off (and I'll probably do a complete audit tomorrow) then I'll find them.
 
> Also odd is whoever posted the new binaries completely yanked all the previous ones, leaving only the new and questionable binary available for download.
this is too obvious.
 
@DeadMG Have tried valgrind? (Might uncover some bugs.)
 
don't appear to need it
 
user3010322
Uh
 
user3010322
Guize
 
user3010322
9:38 PM
I need halp
 
pretty much everything that can be destroyed is a Node, and all Nodes can register for the destruction of any other Nodes that they care about, so a few appropriate assertions can handle any incorrect destruction.
all I had to do in this case was remember to turn it on
 
If you use modern C++ carefully then many common bugs become rare.
 
I have a bunch of "Moves when it shouldn't", though.
which is mostly my own fault.
 
user3010322
template <typename TRange, typename T = decltype( *begin( std::declval<TRange>() ) )>
 
user3010322
^ How do I get the above decltype for T to participate in ADL ?
 
user3010322
9:40 PM
I can't using std::begin in my template...
 
you have to use adl::begin.
@StackedCrooked By the way, I'm gonna have a new Wide build available for you in a few minutes.
 
@DeadMG Nice. There's also this new paper about modules, which might be interesting to some
 
just gonna erase these last tests that are broken by design right now, then merge, commit and push
 
WTF has happened to TrueCrypt? The Twitter messages are confusing.
 
Nobody knows.
 
user3010322
9:44 PM
I'm pretty sure it's 100% bogus.
 
@BartekBanachewicz of course it did. anything else is just far too easy to bribe/subvert/blackmail/incapacitate/extort etc.
 
user3010322
The diffs on git don't make any goddamn sense at all.
 
There are many diffs on git.
 
@VáclavZeman someone with proper auth access has replaced their website, basically saying "we're gone"
 
@DeadMG ok
 
9:45 PM
@ThePhD they removed functionality and put in error messages
 
@sehe So, it is a hack then and the project is basically still alive?
 
@ThePhD I'm pretty sure it's not. It might be one of the TC team being exposed as an infiltrant and he product no longer trustworthy.
 
BTW, it is raining outside and I am listening to altar.bandcamp.com/album/water.
 
@VáclavZeman It could be.
 
How awesome is that?
 
9:46 PM
Marginally
 
imma go to sleep
 
Me too
 
and wait for all this to become clearer tomorrw
 
Night all
 
Yup, night.
 
9:46 PM
@StackedCrooked By the way, I confirmed that that annoying "incorrect processor" spam is an LLVM bug which is fixed in LLVM trunk, and their next major release is due about August (cry)
 
@DeadMG ok. what's the download link again?
 
@DeadMG Repost.
 
Lame puppy.
 
user3010322
Wait a second.
 
user3010322
So if I want code that will work in other places, I need to use std::abi versus std:: stuff
 
user3010322
and that std::abi stuff is provided by the operating system?
 
The proposal is pretty bad.
 
@StackedCrooked Sorry, had to switch over to Windows.
@ThePhD It's the only place it can be provided.
 
@DeadMG I was just kidding regarding @Rapptz mention of repost :)
 
user3010322
9:56 PM
I can't even see the major os implementations trying to help C++ out there.
 
ah
 
user3010322
Let alone every single OS vendor.
 
@ThePhD Well, Microsoft is the only OS vendor not currently playing ball in the ABI department.
so considering he works at Microsoft
I don't feel it's a bad bet.
 
user3010322
He cites problems with the Itanium ABI
 
user3010322
Stating that only GCC conforms (no mention of Clang)
 
9:58 PM
the Itanium ABI isn't really that problematic.
both GCC and Clang have stable ABIs for years now and libstdc++ has a stable ABI for years.
it's only really on Windows that you have a problem because Microsoft breaks their stdlib ABI every year and their compiler ABI is undocumented and officially unstable.
 

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