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8:00 PM
Similar code.
Don't look at Somalian code.
 
I could read the F# source
perhaps the boost thing, dunno if I can even read c++
 
@JohanLarsson No time. Here's a C++/CLI header only util to expose a CLR IEnumerable<> from a "streaming" source in native C++, though: paste.ubuntu.com/8548128 (note the paste title)
That's from our PoC codebase, regrettably it probably will not be getting (more) use since we've been acquired by Acronis
 
@Borgleader I can explain what you need to do when I get back home.
Not too keen on doing it from the phone right now.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Coolio :)
 
Assuming the right train and right stop, should take me some 15 minutes.
 
(Yes, I know, bold assumptions)
 
Where is Python used so much? Web?
 
@JohanLarsson re-reading that, that was some funky code :) Being fully generic on the C++ side while explicitly implementing generic interfaces on the C# side exercises a wide range of C++/CLI specific syntax
 
ok I will probably not even fail
Large % of the funk is derp in that code
 
Rust docs suck.
 
8:09 PM
Wanted some type to describe {Unit(s), Power(s)}
 
In C#? Not gonna work.
Well not statically, at least.
 
Maybe not, how can you be so sure?
 
F#'s system is totally in the compiler.
@Johan I've tried before :P
 
My attempt was for something that could handle a bunch of cases. Idea was to define markar interfaces for powers, interfaces for types and composite types
Then do arithmetics with the base units
would only handle finite powers but {-5...5} is probably enough for most practical scenarios
 
Everyone says that about every arbitrary limitation
It's never true
 
8:14 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes @SamDeHaan just you two left to vote btw.
 
if so I could code gen huge amounts
 
@thecosh no login cookie on my phone.
 
hmm
trying to list everything I need to move in to Bristol next week
 
Books.
Dice.
 
I actually just gave away or recycled every book I owned.
 
8:16 PM
That's it.
 
> recycled
Interesting
 
why?
 
Poor things :(
 
How do you recycle them? Cut them up, and write on thepages using green ink?
 
we have a paper recycling service provided by local government
 
8:18 PM
They should recycle you into soylent green as revenge.
 
even out here in the swamp.
 
Ah. You "discard" them
And then they get recycled
 
Heartless bastard.
 
Ell
I resell books
 
eh, my sister took most of them
 
8:19 PM
That's a real karma booster right there
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes vOv puppy voted by proxy before...
still, wainting for sam anyway.
 
I'll do it when I get home.
Next stop.
I think.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm loving how carefree I feel about my second hand discworld book. No need to worry about it's spine braking, it already is :D
 
lol
 
8:21 PM
At the least give books away... unless they are shit ones.
 
"spin braking"?
 
@thecoshman In which case, sell them for twice the money
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ooooh, there was some thing I wanted to link you to, it was about why books smell the way they do as they age.
 
What torturous things do you do to books?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes brake when spinning
 
8:22 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes ¬_¬ you stop just went by, I'm sure.
 
@thecoshman brake! brake!
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Centrifuge
 
@thecoshman Bacteria, amirite?
 
@thecoshman oh, I saw that
 
@Puppy It was on my phone, so I didn't want to suffer trying to look at a large graphic like that.
@R.MartinhoFernandes may it was you I saw it from :P
 
8:23 PM
@thecoshman and, almost as interesting, why they smell the way they do when they're new
@thecoshman fyi your typing is below (even your) average today. Also I think mixing up responses to messages
 
googles centrifuge shelves
 
@sehe it is, isn't it... Aim is on par though
@R.MartinhoFernandes huh?
 
Nope. Got my stop.
Standmite.
 
lol
 
8:28 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes inb4 "I moved last week; to the other side of city"
 
The middle of the city is stilll in the middle of the city.
Moving to the other side of it leaves that stop close enough
 
well clearly you aren't thinking in enough dimensions.
 
I'm limited
 
the only direction is up
 
it's turtles all the way up
 
8:35 PM
@thecoshman I cherish my used books just as much as my new ones. In fact, my favourite ones (as in, the actually physical object, not the work) are actually heavily used.
 
1D fan!
Stone him!
 
@sehe am I mistaken, or is there a religion that has that in it's beliefs? Hindi I think.
 
1d fans are noiseless fans
 
noseless fans
 
@thecoshman close, but no cigar.
 
8:37 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes I tease you somewhat. I do look after my books, try to avoid them getting beat up, but I read them first and foremost. Well, I say that, I am terribly slow normally, but Sorcery is getting eaten up very fast, by my standards.
 
> I'm not interested in mac because according to me is a lot of graphics
The good ol' "mac is for photographers/designers" 'shit.
 
Indeed. There are lots of other people with too much money!
 
So, you need to split the loop into the various iterator bits. Local variables become members; the loop initialisation goes into the ctor, or into the first ++ with a flag; the condition goes into ==, probably twisted to fit the two-iterator model; the increment goes into ++.
Where the actual computation goes is a bit trickier. 1) computation goes into `op*`; that means it is computed twice if you do `x = *it; y = *it;`. 2) computation goes into `op++`; that means you need to cache the result in a member and then `op*` simply returns that. The first computation has to go in the ctor so that
 
@sehe It's called investment. You'll learn about it when you'll grow older.
 
8:41 PM
I'm joking, btw.
 
@Sofffia I think I'll die if I grow much older still
Of course, I should say "YES! Precisely like buttcoins are an investment for people with too much money".
 
Some threads on nomic.loungecpp are full of reposts.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Thanks, I'll look into implementing that :)
 
Only my posts are ever original
 
8:43 PM
Yes cat
What do you guys think about the fixed points shit?
 
@CatPlusPlus you also violate DRY at times {terrible, et al.}
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes shhh you
 
Was...
> (This prevents ambiguity, confusion, and general messy interactions with rule 203.)
...supposed to be in the rules gist?
I thought they were notes for when the proposal was made.
 
No reason it shouldn't be
Still informative not normative
 
Ell
what does x ≫ y mean to you guys?
 
8:50 PM
Sep 23 at 16:36, by R. Martinho Fernandes
> (Text between parentheses is not normative.)

The first paragraph of this rule does not apply to itself.
 
bit shifting
 
@Ell It means "WTF is that Unicode shit for"
 
lol bit shifting
 
Ell
(in a mathematical context)
 
It's 'much greater than' afair
 
8:50 PM
@Ell Much greater than
 
a lot greater
 
@Ell x is much larger than y
 
we got it thanks
 
some kind of composition in F#
 
Ell
I'd never seen it before a few seconds ago
 
8:51 PM
I have must have used it here in chat a couple of times.
 
@Ell It means "User failed to properly define operator".
 
At most, it means "make sure there is enough context to know where to lookup the meaning of well-known notation"
 
none of you gave a useful definition either
 
Ell
@Puppy they all gave the correct definition :P
 
define useful :)
 
8:54 PM
I see.
so for 4 >> 2, is that "much greater" or not?
 
Yeah, that's why we tell people that they it's ok to read C++ without learning it first.
 
or 5 >> 2?
 
Ell
No
 
@Puppy It's your burden.
 
how about 2^15 >> 2^14?
 
Ell
8:55 PM
the truth of the statement depends on the context of the statement
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Right, so basically it's totally undefined what it actually means, except that it probably has something to do with the left side being somewhat bigger.
 
Ell
but the definition of the operator remains the same in any mathematical context
 
that's no definition.
 
@Puppy I have no idea what you're trying to say.
 
8:55 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Really?
 
Other than "I am violently allergic to mathematical notation"
 
Ell
@Puppy g ≫ f means the growth of f is asymptotically bounded by g
from wikipedia
 
He means, it's not a computable function. Whereas, it's not a function at all, IYAM
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes What I'm saying is that if you define an operation, that should be sufficient to calculate the result of that operation given correct arguments. If you can't, then it's not defined.
 
Ell
@Puppy it's notation
 
8:56 PM
This is not used to calculate anything
 
Ell
it's not an operation
just like = isn't an operation
 
well, saying that it's not anything is certainly a way of getting around having to define what it is.
 
Your words.
 
Ell
@Puppy what is love?
 
notation is not "not anything"
3 mins ago, by sehe
define useful :)
 
Ell
8:57 PM
(baby don't hurt me)
 
@Ell A combination of electrical and chemical states in the brain.
 
Sometimes you just need to say that something is much bigger than something else
 
inb4 penises
 
Ell
@Puppy lol
 
@Puppy lol. rigorous proof didn't fit in the margin
 
8:58 PM
Like your mom ≫ known universe
3
 
Love != the feeling of love
 
@sehe Notation is only as useful or meaningful as the thing it notates. I can invent whatever notation I want for meaningless operations and it'd still be meaningless.
 
in English Language & Usage on The Stack Exchange Network Chat, Jul 20 at 15:30, by Johan Larsson
@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Love is imagination winning over common sense.
 
Let's ban this useless academia. It's not useful to me when building my barn
@JohanLarsson Not bad
 
9:00 PM
regular > also effectively notes the fact that the left-hand-side should be bigger than the right hand side by an undetermined amount.
 
Approximations are never useful
 
It also notes a bunch of other things.
Like partial orders.
Which have no concept of "bigger by some amount"
 
so having >> mean "Left hand side should be bigger than right hand side by some amount" is pretty pointless.
 
It's not by some amount/
There's a rigorous definition, btw.
 
9:01 PM
it's only really meaningful if you give a proper definition of how much it should be bigger by for it to apply.
 
I'd say order of magnitude at least
 
And ≫ notes that the difference is big enough to warrant special note
 
"Much greater than" is merely the informal way of describing it.
 
Is there a >>>?
 
If you need there to be
 
9:02 PM
But maybe I shouldn't have mentioned that there is a rigorous definition.
 
Ell
@Puppy right but everyone but you understands this notation. I guess that's an added bonus
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Fair enough. In that case, I'll simply narrow my own complaint to stating that the given definitions here are pointless.
 
It's funnier to just watch you spew nonsense over and over.
 
In fact, it's perfectly possible to have g ≫ f and g(x) < f(x) for some x.
 
Ell
9:05 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Is there?
I'm looking for it now and can't find one
but I'm bad a gügle.
 
10 mins ago, by Ell
@Puppy g ≫ f means the growth of f is asymptotically bounded by g
@Ell There is for this meaning.
Let f and g be functions. g≫f if and only if ∃a∀x x > a ⇒ g(x) > f(x).
 
Ell
I like the definition that f(x) >> g(x) if f(x) + g(x) is approx f(x)
2
 
that's equally meaningless without a proper definition of "approx"
 
Ell
You think it's meaningless?
 
Wasn't that obvious?
 
Ell
9:11 PM
@Puppy it means what you think it means
 
@Ell OK, so it has multiple unequal definitions with no means of determining the correct one.
 
Ell
context is useful though
 
@Puppy usually, they'll just say e.g. f(x) + g(x) ≅ f(x) for x>1000 or so. So, similarly they could say for x>1000, we know f(x) ≫ g(x)
 
@Ell I don't like it because it doesn't define the same thing.
Also, my definition above is wrong.
I forgot the k.
 
lmgtfy "I'm feeling lucky" is quite adequate, and then there's the third google hit: mathworld.wolfram.com/MuchGreater.html
Yes it's fuzzy. Yes it's expressive. No it's not useless.
 
Ell
9:14 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes it's okay, I couldn't read it anyway
;)
 
@sehe Define ≅a
 
is approximately
 
right, so now define "approximately".
 
g≫f if and only if ∃a∃k∀x.k≥1∧x>a⇒k·g(x)>f(x).
Looks better.
 
Ell
9:16 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes looks like APL
 
@sehe there is such a religion though, right?
 
Ell
@Puppy why?
 
is there no symbol for if and only if?
 
Ell
well. It means "used to show that something is almost, but not completely, accurate or exact; roughly."
@JohanLarsson you could use iff
 
9:16 PM
@CatPlusPlus that is equivalence no?
 
Don't let context corrupt your thinking! Numbers are all that matters. Who needs limits, infinitesimals, convergence/divergence, hell who needs approximations! (Our world would look very different without them. Especially in engineering and technology infrastructure)
 
@Ell yeah but since we were so fancy
 
@sehe I'm the robot.
 
@Ell Because defining something in terms of another undefined thing is pretty useless, you're right back to where you started- you have an undefined thing and the people trying to do things with that thing don't know what to do.
 
Ell
@Puppy undefined != strictly defined
 
9:17 PM
The World Turtle (also referred to as the Cosmic Turtle, the World-bearing Turtle, or the Divine Turtle) is a mytheme of a giant turtle (or tortoise) supporting or containing the world. The mytheme, which is similar to that of the World Elephant and World Serpent, occurs in Hindu, Chinese, and Native American mythology. The "World-Tortoise" mytheme was discussed comparatively by Edward Burnett Tylor (1878:341). == North America == The Lenape myth of the "Great Turtle" was first recorded between 1678 and 1680 by Jasper Danckaerts. The myth is shared by other Northeastern Woodlands tribes, notably...
 
Ell
(the != means that something isn't equal to another thing)
you don't need a completely black and white definition of something for it to be useful
 
You can't have such a thing.
 
@JohanLarsson Yes, same thing
 
@Ell An informal description of the first version: there is a point (a) after which g(x) is always larger than f(x).
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I used to be able to make sense of this notation. :(
 
9:21 PM
Then something to the effect of: there is a constant (k) that when multiplied by g(x) makes it always larger than f(x), after some point (a).
I'm not sure if k has to be 1 or more, but adding it saves me the trouble of checking that and doesn't affect the result.
 
@sehe it is part of Hindi... just not exclusively so.
 
@thecoshman No. It's not a language thing at all (did you mean Hinduism)
 
Ell
It makes me sad when I read "at this point it is easy to understand ..." and I don't understand it :(
 
@Ell Yes, you do- at least, in the mathematical sense. There's a big difference between "It's undefined" and "The user must define it".
 
Ell
@Puppy to the former - why?
 
9:23 PM
@sehe I did... I just realised my mistake there.
 
@Puppy No, you don't vOv.
 
because how could you possibly reason about what that thing is, how it behaves, or even what it is if it's not defined?
may as well reason about magical space fairies.
 
Ell
I just said a few minutes ago that it's loosely defined
 
That's exactly what numbers are.
 
Ell
that doesn't make it not defined
 
9:24 PM
But I don't want to get into philosophy at this time of the night.
 
no
 
Hey everyone, I'm sorry to bother you, but I'd appreciate if you could answer a question. I didn't ask this on SO because I thought this was a trivial thing but here goes. I can do Base* foo = new Derived(); in c++, is there a way to do this in member initialization list?
 
@Puppy So, if a mathematical relation leaves a lot of properties unknown, that's useless? It might be underconstrained for a specific problem, but not unconstrained in general.
 
what you said is, "It's defined given some third parameter comp which tells us whether or not it's approximate that the user must define".
 
Ell
MyClass : member(new Derived()) { ... };
 
9:25 PM
in other words, x >> y is meaningless, and x >> y (comp) has this definition.
 
Puppy found a hammer.
 
Ell
@Puppy You've lost me. What is comp?
 
@MertcanEkiz Use a smart pointer that properly encapsulates your ownership.
 
Thanks Ell!
 
@Puppy One does not "randomly" reason about things. One reasons about things in context of a problem, oft trying to understand it better or even solve some aspect of it. You don't need to know /all/ properties all the time (only if you need some closed-form solution) and even if you /do/ know all properties, not all of them might be relevant to your reasoning (which is why you would abstract them leave them out in your notation)
 
9:26 PM
@Ell Well, you need it to define "approximate", since you didn't give it any definition and apparently the user is supposed to intuit it from context.
 
It means "approximate"
 
Ell
@Puppy Approximate is loosely defined also
 
:19384478 I assume your deletion means you understood why it doesn't define the same thing.
 
so what you're really saying is that the user has to provide the definition of this extra thing.
that's basically just taking a third parameter, but expressed in a super-crappy way.
 
ITT puppy doesn't know English.
 
9:27 PM
If the degree of approximation is important you can say it too
 
@Puppy er where's the ambiguity in approximation?
I don't see why you'd need to define it.
 
All those symbols are just shorthand for saying things jesus christ
 
@Rapptz Is 5 approximately 6? Is 6 approximately 7?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeah
 
is 2^14 approximately 2^16?
 
9:28 PM
Yes. No. Maybe.
 
FileNotFound
 
right, it's undefined.
 
?_?
 
@Puppy it's loosely defined
 
9:29 PM
"loosely defined" would be giving answers for at least some arguments.
 
Think of it as the runtime complexity guarantees of standard library algorithms.
 
I don't think you understand approximation.
 
@Puppy Those are loosely defined too. Do you think they are useless? (note they do not give any answers at all comparatively)
 
Ell
@Puppy I'm so going to call you out next time you ever use the word approximate :P
 
if you don't ever give a result for any argument, I don't see how that can possibly qualify as any definition of "defined". (dat sentence?)
 
Ell
9:29 PM
@Puppy it's not a function
there is no f(a, b) which maps to whether a is approximately equal to b
you can't treat it like a function
 
@Ell Yes, there is. There are many such functions.
 
@Ell Which is why the user has to provide one for your use of it to qualify as a definition.
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes is there?
 
I'm watching Highlander
 
Ell
9:30 PM
Maybe I don't understand either
 
It has approximately good FX
 
@Ell f(a, b) = |a - b| < e
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes in fact, a lot of analysis focuses on finding such functions, as they might be easier to compute, or it allows all functions to be modeled using a single piece of hardware etc.
 
right, that's a definition.
 
Ell
e? as in the e^x e?
 
9:31 PM
No, epsilon
 
Ell
or as in the e in the limit definition e
 
@Ell Sorry. Some constant.
 
Ell
Right okay
 
Ell
yeah I guess that's true. My bad
 
9:32 PM
e was a terrible choice indeed.
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes I can't think of a worse choice :P
(besides a or b)
actually pi would have been bad
ignore me again
I'll just stop talking :P
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Reminded me of this excellent article:
 
from memory, the natural numbers are defined by axiom, which is not really the same thing as being undefined.
 
I fear that puppies might think neural nets are entirely useless
 
@sehe wasn't it "any linear function"?
 
9:35 PM
@sehe tl;dr; :P
 
@Abyx Nope
@Borgleader It's complete with interactive visualizations. It's not just something to read
 
you say that like there isnt 10 pages worth of text
 
@Puppy Such axioms fail to define zero.
 
the font is pretty large
 
9:36 PM
it deceptively makes it bigger
 
Or whatever symbol they use for it.
 
@Borgleader But, the pictures are worth a thousand words, so, ∑ information(pictureₙ) ≫ ∑ information(wordₙ)!
 
Or if you want, eventually you will reach "objects", the definition of which is akin to "stuff", or lies in philosophy.
 
oh gawd, Object
 
So, there you go. All of mathematics is inherently useless, given that it is pretty much the study of these "mathematical objects".
 
9:40 PM
@Borgleader Actually, taking into account that the animations are "many" pictures:
∑ info(pictureₙ) ⋙ ∑ info(wordₙ) // ⋙ U+22D9 Name: VERY MUCH GREATER-THAN
6
 
I wonder when they'll release Chandler's CppCon talk.
 
When the bail is broken
 
It was a midsummer night's dream
 
@Quentin: People often misunderstand the C++ standard. From a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly time-y wimey stuff. — Karoly Horvath Aug 19 at 10:14
hahaha what
 
9:47 PM
Doctor Who quote
 
I've taken to translating German I don't understand to French instead of English or Portuguese.
 
that sentence is a tad bit confusing for me, are you saying you default to French when you don't know a word in German?
 
> A3 took around 2 minutes to automatically find a repair using virtual machine introspection to insert a system call block, preventing a sys_clone call made by Bash, and an additional 1.5 minutes to find a source code repair in the Bash code.
The A3 shellshock experiment is an example that illustrates the recent progress made by the survivability and resiliency research community to automate post-incident response management and to reduce the time to patch.
 
inb4 skynet
 
Ell
9:55 PM
@sehe wow
that is amazing
 
djesus, Star Citizen released new ships and they made 1.3M$ yesterday
 
The next stretch goal is marked "Coming Soon" yet it's already 92% complete.
 
They're still on that?
 
Yup
 
9:59 PM
I still think it's stupid lol
 
last one was
 

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