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5:01 PM
@GamesBrainiac Some parts (e.g., multithreading) may -- and I believe there are already some implementations with more multithreading support. Others, like "Pythonic" sometimes being non-obvious and perhaps even algorithmically non-optimimum seem more likely to persist.
 
Also, efficient inter-thread comms depends critically upon how long you keep a lock. If you have to copy large amounts of data inside a lock, there will be increased contention. Queueing a pointer takes the same, minimal, time, no matter how large the data pointed to.
 
@JerryCoffin I see. Thanks for that Jerry. Will keep that in Mind.
 
so instead of making a copy of an object you make a reference to it and copy that reference?
 
@GamesBrainiac Stuff that's problematic with python like speed and memory usage is only a problem in some scenarios and usually not in the 'prototyping' stage.
Python is usually fast enough
 
5:03 PM
@GamesBrainiac Surely. But please don't take my word on Python as gospel, or anything like that.
 
struct A { }; struct B : A { }; struct C : B { private: using B::A; }; int main() { C *c; A *a = c; }
GCC rejects this snippet
is it right to do so!?
saying "A is an inaccessible base of C"
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I find that true. In my own adventures with Python, I find it slow for mathematical operations when not using numpy or scipy.
Which is sad.
I wish I could use Python for everything. :(
 
@GamesBrainiac So use numpy or scipy?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I do use them. But I'd like python to be fast enough on its own. Both numpy and scipy use C and FORTRAN to do most of the heavy-lifting.
 
@GamesBrainiac Right, that's the beauty of python, you keep clean code structure in python and let stuff like C do the heavy lifting.
 
5:08 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum I know. I need to learn how to extend it asap. Any good books on that, that you've tried?
 
@JohannesSchaub-litb Wouldn't it become private inheritance when doing "Private: using B::A;" ?
I'm just throwing that out there, I've never seen that before.
 
@JohannesSchaub-litb Seems like a bug to me
 
Just for the record, Clang accepts it
 
5:10 PM
feel free to add a question
i will upvote
 
And obviously VS fails to compile it:
"error C2886: 'A' : symbol cannot be used in a member using-declaration"
 
although
"If B is an inaccessible (Clause 11) or ambiguous (10.2) base class of D, a program that necessitates this conversion is ill-formed"
 
@AndyProwl is it inaccessible or ambiguous?
 
5:14 PM
@JohannesSchaub-litb I'd be tempted to say inaccessible
 
i don't think so
 
But I'm not sure. I don't have such a deep formal knowledge
 
me neither :( seems we are out of hope
 
@EtiennedeMartel Did you see this?
 
@ShuklaSannidhya No, but it kinda sucks.
The meme is wrong, the font is wrong, and the joke isn't even good.
 
JBL
5:17 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Was there even a joke .. ?
 
@EtiennedeMartel The man(not sure, may be a woman) in the meme sucks...
 
@ShuklaSannidhya You can choke on a rocket for all I care.
 
Bartek is awesome
 
@JohannesSchaub-litb It seems 11.2/4-5 may contain the answer
 
@JohannesSchaub-litb According to 7.3.3, a using declaration "introduces" a name into the declarative region. I don't see any way that can hide the name that's already present via public inheritance. I'd say Clang is right and gcc and vc++ are wrong.
 
JBL
5:18 PM
@Borgleader Uh ? On which line exactly ?
 
The code was all in one line :P
scroll up and check what johannes posted
 
JBL
@Borgleader Alright, I'm an idiot.
 
@ScottW <3<3<3<3
 
@ScottW ceiling.
 
reformatted:

struct A { };

struct B : A { };

struct C : B {
private:
using B::A;
};

int main() {
C *c;
A *a = c;
}

VS rejects line 7. gcc rejects line 12.
 
5:20 PM
VS is obviously retarded
 
@JerryCoffin what if the base is protected and the using declaration appears in public scope?
GCC seems to make things public, clang doesn't care
 
JBL
What's GCC error ?
(Oh come on, just realized it costs like nothing to try..)
wall headbanging
 
@JohannesSchaub-litb My immediate feeling is that the correct accessibility is (or should be) the "most public" of those declared, but I'm not sure I have a quote to support that.
 
Also, GCC accepts this:

struct A { int x = 0; };
struct B : A { };
struct C : B
{
private:
using B::A;
};
int main()
{
C c;
c.x;
}

And 11.2/4 says: "A base class B of N is accessible at R, if an invented public member of B would be a public member of N,"

This means GCC considers A to be an accessible base of C, which contradicts the conclusion it comes to in the previous example
I'd say GCC has a bug
 
@AndyProwl good demonstration
 
5:25 PM
Although this technically does not prove that GCC is wrong
It's just strong evidence
 
i don't think redeclaring the injected class name does change anything regarding accessibility of base classes
 
I would tend to believe the same, yes
 
it's certainly not a real intent, since "using A::A;" would be an ill-formed inheriting constructor declaration
 
@ScottW You are a bad uncle. :|
 
@AndyProwl Given the inconsistency involved, I think it pretty much proves that at one point or the other, it (gcc) just about has to be wrong.
 
5:30 PM
@JerryCoffin Right, makes sense
 
Give Scott a break
He's a Mog
 
@ScottW Haiya Scott, how you been?
 
He can't be held liable for his actions
 
@ScottW Been to any more of those annoying parties?
@ScottW Thats good then. Too bad starcraft doesn't have an app on your phone! :P
 
user142019
5:33 PM
Volbeat without subwoofer is horrible.
 
hey guys i hope you don't mind if I ask a vocab question it's not even a c++ question
 
user142019
We rather have non-C++ questions than C++ questions.
 
go for it man
 
@rightfold does "non-C++" include C?
 
what do you call it when we have a chip, which runs multiple things at once. The picture looks like this
 
5:37 PM
@ScottW I bet you had a sly smile on your face when you typed that in! :P
 
it can only run one thing at a time
not really a chip, but I just need some vocab to help me use googlefu
 
JBL
@Raindrop It may be scheduling.
 
thanks!
 
@Raindrop I call it "self contradictory" when you start with: "which runs multiple things at once", but continue with: "it can only run one thing at a time." If you mean that it runs only one thread at a time, but switches between multiple tasks quickly enough to give an illusion of them all running at once, then you're talking about "multiprogramming", "multitasking" or "time slicing".
3
 
in tat picture, te blocks don't overlap in time
 
5:43 PM
@JohannesSchaub-litb Did something happen to your "h" key?
 
how is tat?
 
lol
 
I don't think there's anything wrong with my "hh" key.
 
@ScottW Awesome, so who was the lucky girl?
 
@JohannesSchaub-litb I personally find most tats somewhat distasteful, and I've heard they can be somewhat painful, but what does that have to do with time slicing?
 
5:46 PM
@JerryCoffin wat does that mean?
 
@Mysticial had you run ycruncher on a 12 core before I sent you that benchmark?
 
@ScottW How unfortunate. Probably was on her bachelor night! :P
 
@JohannesSchaub-litb "tat" is a common shortened form of "tatoo".
 
@Borgleader I have benchmarks on 32-core/64-thread machines. They weren't great though due to the crappy NUMA scaling.
 
@JerryCoffin ohh i had no idea!
i am sorry, i meant "thhat"
 
5:48 PM
@ScottW Hahahahaha. Well, we men tend to not give a shit about consequences. But don't you have someone special already?
 
@Mysticial Oh I see.... o.O 32 cores is pretty insane though. I would have liked to turn off some stuff running in the background but I was restricted in what I could do on that machine.
Thats explains why it capped at 85% efficiency
 
NUMA is a big problem. And it's more than a pain in the ass to write anything that's NUMA-friendly/aware.
NUMA-aware code is really difficult to write since the APIs tend to be complete shit.
 
@ScottW Damn. For some reason you remind me of good will hunting.
 
@JohannesSchaub-litb Don't be sorry -- I was just being a smartass.
 
@Borgleader checkout his thread on XS, you can find some quite big machines there
 
5:50 PM
NUMA-friendly code is easier, but not as efficient as NUMA-aware.
 
@Mysticial Most seem to do their best to hide that sort of thing from you.
 
@bamboon I'm sure he has an XSive amount of benchmarks ;)
 
@Borgleader ^^
 
@JerryCoffin You mean the APIs?
 
5:51 PM
@ScottW yea, I loved it. Dunno, like the guy is really smart, and you are too. Totally nice, you are too, he fucked around, and so are you. Next time you come to the lounge, it'll be like, "Sorr fellers, I have a girl I need to see about"
:P
 
@Mysticial Yeah -- they just expose a processor -- memory access, cache sharing (or not), sharing resources with other processors, etc., are all hidden about as much as possible.
 
@ScottW Good luck then! :D
 
@JerryCoffin Problem is that they don't work more often then they do. The Linux numactl is really screwed up. I haven't tried the Windows one, but I hear it's even more restrictive.
 
have fun!
 
I googled NUMA and got this:
 
5:55 PM
blast from the past
 
51,157,382 views
Numa Numa is an Internet phenomenon based on amateur videos, most notably a video by Gary Brolsma, made for the song "Dragostea din tei" as performed by O-Zone. Brolsma's video entitled Numa Numa Song, was released in December 2004 on the website Newgrounds.com, it was the first Numa Numa–themed video to gain widespread attention. Less than three months after the release, it had been viewed more than two million times on the debut website alone. Numa Numa Song has since spawned many parody videos, including those created for the "New Numa Contest", sponsored by Brolsma, which promised US$...
 
@Mysticial I'll have to take your word about numactl. On Windows, about all you get (that I can remember, anyway) is "how are the NUMA nodes laid out", "which nodes have memory available", and good old Set(Thread|Processor)Affinity to control which processors code can run on.
@ScottW Peace.
 
@JerryCoffin The thing I hate about numactl is the inconsistent interface. But even worse, it's support is very poor. On Ubuntu, with the package installed, half the API doesn't even compile.
It's like nobody even bothered to finish implementing it.
And there's no way to know whether something is properly allocated on a specific node. Forcing it to a specific node almost always fails regardless of how much memory is available.
 
@Mysticial Oh -- that sucks. The big problem I see on Windows is that it's really too low level. Most of the time, you'd like something on the order of "try to keep these N threads on the same node". You don't get that though -- your only choices are trust it completely, or take over completely, and map threads to nodes on your own.
@Mysticial Ouch. So it's not even inconsistent -- it really doesn't work at all.
 
@JerryCoffin Exactly.
 
6:03 PM
inb4 boost::numa by mysticial ;)
 
@Mysticial If I didn't know you were going to be working on the XBox, I'd be tempted to ask how you feel about designing a NUMA scheduling API. :-)
 
I've found that if it's at all possible, it's easier to design the algorithm around the CPU cache sizes as much as possible and then micro-manage all movement between ram and cache. (by use of streaming memory access)
@JerryCoffin aha
 
@Mysticial It's a sad situation when micromanagement is the easiest approach. With a decent API, it should only be the last resort...
 
Youre working on Xbox? I thought you worked at google
 
@JerryCoffin IOW, optimizing the program for cache to the maximal possible extent so that you can eat (or even hide via prefetching) the NUMA latency.
I did that with the newest multiplication algorithm that I added to v0.6.1 of the program.
That particular algorithm somehow had super-linear scaling on my quad-Opteron machine.
 
6:07 PM
@Mysticial I guess stated that way, it doesn't sound quite as bad.
@Borgleader YouTube client for XBox.
 
@JerryCoffin That approach really only works for applications that have poor locality to begin with.
 
@Mysticial Super-linear scaling is always interesting.
 
@JerryCoffin Oh
 
Anything with a substantial amount of temporal locality that doesn't fit into cache will benefit from actually copying the data to the local node.
 
@Mysticial Right -- you gain enough from faster access to make up the time doing the initial copy.
 
6:12 PM
There's quite a few places that actually have that kind of temporal locality with a large dataset. So those can benefit from being moved around.
 
@Mysticial Talking about y-cruncher, can you work on it as your side project at YT?
 
But based on my rough estimates, I found that even optimal scaling on NUMA, will only be effective in speeding up computations that fit in ram. Disk computations - even if you feed it with unlimited disk bandwidth will be mostly dominated by algorithms with poor locality anyway.
@bamboon I'm not working on it anymore aside from patching bugs here and there.
All this NUMA stuff was in the past.
I made a really strong effort to get all the crucial algorithms and "inventions" released in some form or another before I started at Google on Monday.
 
@animuson I've seen Java class names in packages that were that long. — Benjamin Gruenbaum 14 secs ago
 
So if, in the future, it ever comes down to litigation, I can prove that all my "inventions" for y-cruncher were done before I joined Google and thus I retain the IP for them.
0
A: How to printf "unsigned long" in C?

Sanjith Bravo Dastanint main() { unsigned long long d; scanf("%llu",&d); printf("%llu",d); getch(); } use this it will be helpful.. Cheers :)

 
@Mysticial that's interesting, how did you publish them?
 
6:18 PM
@bamboon Release a working binary.
Which I just did the Sunday before I started.
 
@Mysticial that's enough?
 
@bamboon It proves that the work is done before I started at Google.
So as long as I don't use it in any of my work at Google, I retain ownership of it.
 
@Mysticial Would be best to archive a complete build system that produces that archive, so you can show direct connection from your source to that binary. Not strictly necessary, but makes it a lot easier to demonstrate what the binary really implements.
 
I didn't realize he declared unsigned long long d. So I deleted my comment.
 
6:21 PM
@Mysticial ok, I am just wondering because that binary could basically use "bubble sort" all the way?
 
@bamboon How would bubble sort produce digits of Pi?
 
@JerryCoffin I have a backup of the exact source code along with all the VS settings and build scripts that produced the binary I released on Sunday.
 
@JerryCoffin I mean in the sense of bubble sort.
 
@Mysticial That's the ticket.
@Mysticial Still not an answer to the question though -- OP asked how to print unsigned long, he showed how to print unsigned long long instead.
 
@JerryCoffin Just wondering though, does source code count as an "invention"? IOW, if I write any code during off hours, does Google own it? Or does it only apply to ideas?
 
6:25 PM
They can't own your code anymore than they can own your thoughts
 
@Mysticial No -- source code (itself) is not an invention. An invention would really involve both: source code that embodies some new idea, approach, algorithm, etc. The idea, by itself, isn't an invention (by US law) but source code that doesn't embody some new idea isn't either. (Most of) the relevant legal definition would be in 35 US code, section 102.
 
@JerryCoffin Interesting... I somehow knew you'd know that. :)
So what happens if a new invention is GPL or public domain? That seems incompatible with XX owns your inventions during employment.
 
@Magtheridon96 They clearly don't own what he did before he started there. What he does in his off-time while he works there is a much...fuzzier area. In most cases, if it's (at all) closely related to what he's doing for work, they have at least some room to claim it as theirs. If he used their equipment to write it, they almost certainly own it.
@Mysticial GPL doesn't really cover inventions. It's a license that assumes the underlying property is covered by copyright, which can cover source code, but not any inventions that source code might embody.
 
@Raindrop Huh. That's not even the original. The original only has 15 million views in comparison newgrounds.com/portal/view/206373
 
Hi @BoltClock
 
6:32 PM
ey
 
@BoltClock Youtube is lame :(
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Did you just follow me here?
 
As far as their ownership of anything you invent while working there: it largely comes back to two questions: how closely it relates to your work for them, and whether you used their equipment, facilities, etc., while working on it. Almost anything you do at work (or at home on their laptop) they probably own outright. If you do it at home on your own machine and it's not related to what you do for work, you stand at least some chance of claiming ownership.
 
@BoltClock I follow you EVERYWHERE
 
Shit.
 
6:34 PM
@Magtheridon96 depending on what the contract says, it might be a legal battle you don't want to take, though.
 
@JerryCoffin Yeah, that's what I've been told from other sources. Still a grey area though. But it definitely isn't even close to what I'll be doing at work. And it definitely isn't using Google resources.
 
OK, I gotta go shift 72 gallons of beer on the wall.
 
@BoltClock Every breath you take. Every move you make. Every bond you break. Every step you take. I'll be watching you :P
 
If they ever decide to put me in a position where I'll be doing things that comes even close to bignum stuff, I'll say no.
3
A: Closing changes: [on hold], unclear, too broad, opinion-based, off-topic reasons, bye-bye to Too Localized

RobustoI think we can simplify even further, at least for English Language &Usage:

 
@Mysticial Right -- the problem that can arise is that clause that's present in nearly ever contract that says something about "and other duties as assigned." Some companies use that to claim almost anything you might do falls within the scope of your position.
 
6:37 PM
@BoltClock Naa, you just went
 
"and other duties as assigned." - hmm... Wait, if I was never assigned it...
 
@Mysticial I'd say you're pretty safe as long as you're just using an existing MP library or something on that order. The only real problem would arise if they ask you to re-implement some bignum stuff from the ground up.
 
@Borgleader 'Since you've gone I've been lost without a traceroute'
 
I see what you did there
 
@JerryCoffin Well... my own existing MP library. And I'm definitely gonna refuse any work that comes anywhere close to bignums.
Including encryption.
I should probably refuse any work that involves FFTs or DCTs.
 
6:39 PM
well
we went out with my GF and made a painting
 
@Mysticial PK crypto, maybe. Most symmetric encryption has nothing to do with bignums.
 
@BartekBanachewicz is that what the kids are calling it these days? :P
 
@Griwes: People learning a new language should learn about it from the ground up. Telling a C++ beginner to "stop using raw pointers" (in a snarky way I may add) is obtuse and counterproductive. — Ed S. 24 secs ago
WTF
I mean
WTF
 
Sure you didn't mean
WTF
 
Nah, I'm pretty sure I meant
WTF
 
6:42 PM
@thecoshman Smooth.
 
@thecoshman no we literally took brushes and paints and made a painting together
 
@EtiennedeMartel watch any sc2 this weekend?
 
@Mysticial Again, I wouldn't get too crazy -- something like optimizing an MPEG decoder could involve optimizing an iDCT, but it's using it in a well-known way that I doubt would raise a problem.
 
@Borgleader Nope.
 
@JerryCoffin Yeah. I'll be trusting my instincts.
 
6:45 PM
@jalf: Because it is impossible to appreciate why we use smart pointers and container types if you don't first understand the pitfalls of manual memory management. One cannot understand why a pattern like RAII exists before first running into some of these problems. Worst of all, they don't understand the semantics of these constructs because they don't understand the problem they are attempting to solve. — Ed S. 47 secs ago
What.
 
tl;dr
 
:D
Ok, I think kmix from KDE 4.10 has a memory leak somewhere. I killed it second ago, it had allocated more than 1,5GiB of memory.
 
@JerryCoffin Oh and thx for the advice. I kinda realized that what you said here would probably cost a few hundred USD from an actual patent attorney. So yeah, dinner's on me next time. :)
 
@EtiennedeMartel You're just inviting someone to get killed aren't you
 
@BoltClock stops sharpening knife sup?
 
6:48 PM
@BoltClock Oh, come on, @jalf isn't that bloodthirsty.
 
4
A: Closing changes: [on hold], unclear, too broad, opinion-based, off-topic reasons, bye-bye to Too Localized

RobustoI think we can simplify even further, at least for English Language &Usage:

 
@Mysticial Oh -- uh...okay. I won't turn down a free dinner.
 
@JerryCoffin But if your company reimburses it... then...
 
Anyone know a good C(++) library for mic input and speaker out?
 
@Mysticial Well, I can charge some meals, but they get ... sticky about things if I try to charge too much.
 
6:50 PM
@bobbybee C or C++?
 
@EtiennedeMartel nah, I just had dinner :)
 
@bobbybee SFML
 
@jalf I don't think he'll come here, though.
 
@EtiennedeMartel That's good, isn't it?
 
@EtiennedeMartel Doesn't really matter
 
6:50 PM
@jalf I don't know.
I like it when you turn someone into an empty husk.
 
we should invite the people to mumble instead
 
@BartekBanachewicz gonna try that
 
Speaking of which, I think I'm gonna go have some lunch. Catch you all later.
 
I'm hungry right now.
I need food.
 
Me too, brb
 
6:51 PM
cya
 
Hm. I never thought it'd be so fun to Draw Etienne x Cat pictures.
I think I'm gonna make you two the romance interest in the game. :D
 
I be here jaif
 
@BoltClock Look, I've started a movement...
 
I'm very hungry.
 
May 31 at 16:37, by BoltClock
@JerryCoffin jerry4mod
 
6:52 PM
@EdS. Well, hi :)
 
So, I'm still perplexed as to why you think I don't know what I'm doing because I believe a beginner should understand the fundamentals of manual memory management
 
@JerryCoffin For an even larger influence than you already command
 
@ThePhD Are you seriously shipping me with Cat?
 
@EdS. I think you don't know what you're doing because you advocate for teaching C++ in the way that people who don't know what they're doing learned it.
 
@EdS., we are not saying "people should not learn how memory management works".
 
6:53 PM
I really do think it is important. Eventually they are going to run into a memory issue. what are they to do if they never learned that aspect of the language
 
@EdS. That always ended in disaster.
 
We are saying "people should learn that automatic memory management before manual memory management".
 
@EdS. you example with vector was particularly bad
 
@EtiennedeMartel Of course. I'm still debating whether or not to shave your face and make you a girl or not (Cat's already a... well. Catgirl).
 
How so?
I see it constantly on SO
 
6:54 PM
Because teachers suck and people don't read books.
 
@EdS. I also see lots of bad questions. And bad code.
 
it's born from people that learn to use int* instead of unique_ptr
 
And again, you can stop saying I don't know what I'm doing. It just makes you sound like an assshat
You have no idea what I do or do not know
 
@EdS. if people were taught to use unique_ptr they would use vector<unique_ptr> and that would be perfectly ok
 
why should a beginner understand the fundamentals of manual memory management? What good does it do when you're trying to write a hello world, or a for loop, or something that reads from a file? Raw pointers are useful later, when you've gotten past the initial hurdles, when you are able to write small, simple programs with well-defined ownership semantics which don't leak memory left and right.
 
6:54 PM
@EdS., then stop talking like you really don't know what you are doing.
 
No it's not. It's born by people *who don't understand how memory management works in general
 
lol.
 
@EdS. I'm not. I am saying that you advocate for teaching C++ in the way same way that people who have no clue what they're doing learned it.
 
Yeah ok Griwse, you are apparently an asshat
 
@EdS. No, he's making an observation
 
6:55 PM
@EdS. He's Polish. Similar but different.
 
your points are kind of flawed, @EdS.
 
An asshatish observation
How so?
 
@DeadMG Can I check stuff into the Wide repo? Or do I make a pull request?
 
Apparently I ran out of popcorn, so I'm just going to make do with some Oreo
 
> What good does it[manual memory management] do when you're trying to write a hello world, or a for loop, or something that reads from a file?
5
 
6:55 PM
@BoltClock I could use some popcorn
 
@EdS. Do you happen to work in a domain that deals with lots of low level stuff?
 
@EtiennedeMartel I think he does.
 
@EdS. At first, they should concentrate on learning things that are of immediate use. There's too much they need to know almost immediately to spend time on things they may eventually want. When somebody's beginning to play piano, you teach them where to put their fingers, not that the difference in frequencies between notes is the twelfth root of two.
 
NO.
 
@EdS., I'm a first year CS student; I can see how the language is taught (tip: badly) and how people who actually read books and using proper abstractions are far better than people who follow int * i = new int[100]; ... delete[] i;.
 
6:56 PM
Manual Memory Management is the worst alliteration ever
 
@Magtheridon96 MMM.
 
@Magtheridon96 mmm
 
mmm
 
I think it's better in lowercase
 
That's the sound I make when something is tasty.
 
6:56 PM
Manual Memory Management Maniacs
 
Oh, a first year CS student. Yes, you must have a vast well of experience to draw upon...
 
manual memory management is the only (true) way for humans to feel like gods.
 
@EdS. Say I'm a beginner. I'm trying to understand #include, and strings (wtf char*? and loops and if statements. Am I better off being told to mess around with new and int*s instead of a vector<int>? Why does that help me learn the language better and more painlessly?
 
@EdS. I dare to say I know the language and modern ways of it better than most of "programmers".
 
I'm not advocating the way it is taught in school. I agree with you there; they often teach you to code in a way in which you would never want to write real-world code.
 
6:57 PM
@refp What about being a god?
 
@Griwes: I can second that point about learning C++ in universitary CS
 
@BoltClock delete pBoldClock;
 
Yeah I doubt that Griwes considering your state yourself that you have little to no real world experience
 
@EdS. have you considered that perhaps he is a first-year CS student who already knew C++ before starting his studies?
 
You'llgrow up one day and see that that really matters quite a bit
 
6:58 PM
@Nobody But you're Nobody, that doesn't really help.
@EdS., lol.
 
Most Manual Memory Management Maniacs Make Me Mad. (Or MMMMMMMM.)
 
@EdS. I think you can have years' experience as C++ programmer and still suck at C++, TBH, so that's not really related
 
@EdS. so, isn't this the precise arguments that you objected to from me or others?
 
I know what people just learning programming and C++ understand better.
I know that far better than you, apparently.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Most of the horrible C++ code I've seen has come from people with years of experience
 
6:58 PM
@BartekBanachewicz the truest thing I've read all week.
 
So stop arguing at that point with me; I live with people who are doing that right now.
 
Let's see if we can make that alliteration longer
 
that's why I think that @EdS. picking on Griwes age is unfair
 
Beginners just write random, ramshackle and shaky code. The dangerous ones are those who learned to write horrible C++ 15 years ago, and have polished that to perfection
 
6:59 PM
You guys are going off on a complete tangent and attempting to paint me as some old-timer who writes C++ as C with classes. I assure you I do not
 
years of experience could be the same as; "I always do it this way, and it kinda always work.. why read up on something new?"
 
@jalf This.
@EdS. Then stop saying raw pointers should be taught first!
 
@EdS. nobody said that. We criticize your methods of learning, not your skill.
 
People need to first understand how to do something.
 
My original pointer was that one should understand concepts fundamental to the langauge they are using. Abstractions around memory management do not remove you completely from it
 
6:59 PM
@EdS. you write C++ like C without classes?
 
@EdS. How many people beginners have been taught C++ by you?
 

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