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13:00
Oh.
@BartekBanachewicz stage a.cpp, commit, then revert
$ git pull --rebase
Cannot pull with rebase: You have unstaged changes.
Please commit or stash them.
user142019
git reset --hard is probably very bad but that's the way I revert uncommitted changes. :v
@BartekBanachewicz So commit or stash them.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I want to revert them. Are you even reading?
3 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
how can I revert all files that aren't explicitely added to commit?
13:00
@BartekBanachewicz git stash && git stash clear
@kbok oh! thanks
@BartekBanachewicz After the commit, of course
@R.MartinhoFernandes thanks for the RTFM, I have a life to live besides reading 12428 pages about git, d'oh.
13:01
@DeadMG Is this how GIT users handle commit errors? :O
Or git co -- *
@BartekBanachewicz You can try 40 minutes of Youtube GIT tutorials. :D
^ Jeff is a HIMYM fan
@tom_mai78101 youtube tutorials of anything related to CS are a joke
13:03
@BartekBanachewicz Well, it beats reading that many pages. :/
youtube tutorials of pretty much anything are jokes
Xeo
Xeo
5 mins ago, by Xeo
commit and update?
Didn't know the git equivalent of update, though :P
@BartekBanachewicz You pay for the nice formatting I guess
@kbok I am willing to pay allright
well, whatever
13:05
Worth it if you're the reader kind I guess
@kbok We have to look at how Lua should be supplied to Travis
Curiously: Do you guys use TortoiseGIT or just GIT?
As in command line GIT?
@tom_mai78101 both
Oh ok. Food for my thoughts.
user142019
I use CLI Git from Vim. :v
13:08
I missed @phil_nash talking about CATCH while I was listening to Nico Josuttis# ScheduleCollisions #accu2013
@BartekBanachewicz either git mirror + submodules or a dependency manager. I think there's chef on travis but not sure what is allowed
Ell
Ell
How is automated testing done with GUIs?
@Ell comparing screenshots
@Ell Selenium does it nicely on webpages. On normal GUIS you test mostly business logic
13:08
@tom_mai78101 meh tortoisegit
@tom_mai78101 sourcetree and github are way superior if you want a GUI
user142019
SourceTree is ugly. :<
yeah it's butt ugly lol
enterprise-ugly
ughfuck script author why you make linker messages red?
I was afraid for a good 3 seconds I broke build again
posted on April 12, 2013 by Anders Schau Knatten

I’m at the ACCU 2013 conference, and this morning Bjarne Stroustrup held a keynote about C++11. One of his points was that full adoption of C++11 will take some time, due to compilers, libraries etc. lagging behind, but also due to many programmers not wanting to use new things in general. What can you do [...]

> What can you do
Ignore the lagging behindness?
13:13
@tom_mai78101 obviously never worked in a team
Correct. :( I'm so sad of life.
tom_mai78101 whimpers
@Feeds oh fuck, it's Friday
You're very likely to encounter team members that are old-school people or just stubborn
Is it me or @historyweird tweets a lot about medicine-related stuff
@kbok Another reason, for me, is having to take more time learning newer C++ things.
Anyone know of a freelance developer with experience in Java, PHP, and Python?
13:16
@kbok Medicine was weird back then...
@kbok It was also something quite often documented.
@tom_mai78101 IMO a programmer who refuses to learn is better off "free for culture"
@kbok I was about to say, I have almost forgotten C++, and had been staying in Java for quite some time now.
@Kevin java and php? he should be quite a dork
@Abyx Or an experienced back-end developer.
php back-end?
oh my...
13:20
@Feeds hey, that's nice
I think I should raise my salary expectations
Just call me whatever you want, but is PHP something what back-end devs use?
aw, fuck.
13:21
@tom_mai78101 Is PHP something that devs use?
that ^
web designer, web script, etc. Aren't they also devs?
I have one actual type that has a different LLVM type in every Clang TU, and then another one in Wide. :(
I thought PHP was for non-developers, like Visual FoxPro or LEGO Mindstorms
6
There are some developers that does front-end and back-end... Like a 1-man team or something.
13:23
@tom_mai78101 no
@kbok ahahah
OMG....
@StackedCrooked everyone says wrong things from time to time
Vector access is two orders of magnitude slower than pointer access due to their design. He's not pleased :P
I must be in the bottom of the pit when it comes to this. ;'(
Even the most hard-core "I don't need all that new stuff" legacy programmer will appreciate that. Btw, I think this is especially useful in unit tests, where you typically initialize a lot of data manually. (Those legacy programmers probably "don't need all that new unit testing stuff" either, though.)
13:24
hahaha can you picture it "facebook uses LEGO Mindstorms for its backend so it's probably good"
@StackedCrooked I've never observed any such thing.
I will try to finish the first batch of tests today or tomorrow @kbok. I'll see how much time my GF will leave me :P
Mine left the city for the week end so I'll have plenty of time to work
13:26
@DeadMG It's only for iterator access iirc. He mentions that most programmers get around by storing the reference from to the dereferenced iterator.
focus on the new features then, and I'll try to keep up with tests
@StackedCrooked huh? vector is a struct of three pointers
okay
Xeo
Xeo
@StackedCrooked Wat
Around the 15 minute mark in linked video.
13:27
@StackedCrooked No way, it's exactly the same operation as pointer decay+dereference
@ScottW I wanted it when I was younger but they were kind of expensive
It's like the ultimate toy
@StackedCrooked, I guess he meant earlier MSVC which had debug iterator by default, even in release builds.
@kbok He claims wrapping a pointer in a struct introduces additional load and store and that makes it much slower. (Or something like that.)
friggin' robots
13:28
debug iterators may be slow, but you always can disable them
@StackedCrooked That's bullshit.
and even if it was true, there's no way it would account for 100x performance degrade.
@BartekBanachewicz why?
And I thought playing Marbleworks is the ultimate toy ever in existence.
:(
@DeadMG I might be saying it wrong. See the video if you want the real details :)
13:28
@StackedCrooked That makes no sense
It's at 15-17 minute mark.
@StackedCrooked The start pointer is on the stack exactly the same way a raw pointer would be
@kbok I know.
Curious again: How old are you guys?
@EvgenyPanasyuk because it's a nice blog topic covering the points we discussed
Xeo
Xeo
13:29
@StackedCrooked Tell me one, one implementation of the standard library that uses raw pointers for the iterators.
I don't think it makes sense either.
@tom_mai78101 Look at our profiles
@Xeo Don't shoot your arrows at me.
@StackedCrooked phew :)
@Xeo The iterator interface is designed to permit that, last I checked.
but I doubt that anyone actually does
Xeo
Xeo
13:30
@DeadMG I know
@kbok I meant actual age in real life.
Xeo
Xeo
But I mean that nobody does it, so he'd have to blame every single stdlib implementor.
@BartekBanachewicz "to many programmers not wanting to use new things in general" - and how that applies to me? I said that C++11 is not critical for beginners
@tom_mai78101 If someone is willing to lie in his profile then he'll lie here as well :)
Xeo
Xeo
@StackedCrooked xeo->pewpew(stacked_crooked, pewpew_type::arrow)
13:31
@EvgenyPanasyuk these are the features that make beginners' life easier
@Xeo does it matter if it's a raw pointer or a raw pointer wrapped in struct?
@kbok It was Chat profile I just saw.
~StackedCrooked()
easier != critical
@Xeo Y U NO template<typename PewPewType> pewpew?
13:31
C++11 makes life easier for everyone expect maybe for library implementors. I'm not sure about that.
@EvgenyPanasyuk so what's critical? Braces?
Xeo
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz Wat.
@tom_mai78101 There's stackoverflow profiles as well
@kbok I see what you did there
@BartekBanachewicz :)
13:32
@BartekBanachewicz, right style: no naked pointers, no bloated oo - all the good stuff
@kbok Yes, just noticed that 30 seconds ago. Sorry to doubt you. :)
Xeo
Xeo
@kbok Library implementors love variadic templates, decltype and move semantics I'm sure.
@EvgenyPanasyuk so exactly C++11, unique and shared ptrs, variadic templates - all the good stuff
IIRC in VC++ iterators are as fast as pointers, with debug stuff disabled
anyone know how seriously those accu lightning talks are intended to be taken? Because I'm kind of enamoured with the left arrow thing, but wondering if it's just intended as a wtf :D
13:32
if you are a beginner to C++ you should start by learning the latest standard. Otherwise you're just learning bad habits.
@Xeo But they probably need to keep backwards-compatibility so
@jalf that's a joke
@TheForestAndtheTrees Um... Should the beginners include the basics of C++?
@jalf I think it's half-humourous (ie don't do that, but look at it because it's interesting still)
@BartekBanachewicz it's still cool though
13:33
@tom_mai78101 there basics of C++03 and there are basics of C++11
Xeo
Xeo
@jalf Considering the fact that Phil "hacked together" the <- thing, I wouldn't take it seriously.
@jalf sure it is
@BartekBanachewicz Did not know that.
@ScottW Object<-ObjectFoo<-........ <-Bar
Xeo
Xeo
But we had a talk in here about custom operators through foo %myop% bar
13:33
@EvgenyPanasyuk is that a left arrow operator? Anyway, that's what templates are for
@BartekBanachewicz it is inheritance
@Xeo my eyes =(
@EvgenyPanasyuk so what about tuple? It helps to avoid unnecessary classes, C++11 only
Xeo
Xeo
foo <myop> bar better? :P
@EvgenyPanasyuk <- is inheritance??
@Xeo but that's ugly and uncool, quite unlike teh <- operator :)
@Xeo I kinda doubt we need custom operators in first place
@ScottW how sweet
@BartekBanachewicz hm, not too much usefull - only inside library when you have some type pack. outside of library it is always better to make simple agregate struct with named members
Xeo
Xeo
@jalf meh
13:35
@ScottW It involves your mother.
@Abyx that was @Konrad 's idea
Um... oh gosh. -> is pointer, <- is the new operator. (Java super keyword?)
user142019
> Bjarnefest
user142019
lol
@EvgenyPanasyuk what? why only inside library? What about map keys? Have you ever used it?
13:35
ah, the Konrad-fuck-pointers
@Abyx fuck pointers!!
@BartekBanachewicz, yes, it's operators are usefull
Xeo
Xeo
@jalf I don't think it's that cool, tbh
SEXY POINTERS!
@EvgenyPanasyuk exactly. Now do that in C++03. You end up with "bloated OO"
Xeo
Xeo
13:36
I mean, if you need special syntax to invoke those "extension" methods anyways...
HMMMM HMMMM cue sexy noises
I'm sorry. -> and <- are just staring at each other.
@BartekBanachewicz, you don't get my point. When I talked that C++11 is not critical I meant for begginers
@EvgenyPanasyuk You just said beginners should learn how to avoid bloated OO, no?
5 mins ago, by Evgeny Panasyuk
@BartekBanachewicz, right style: no naked pointers, no bloated oo - all the good stuff
And how a beginner is supposed to solve multi-key map problem then without tuple?
13:38
@jalf I don't see the appeal :(
user142019
@BartekBanachewicz struct
@Zoidberg bloated OO
@BartekBanachewicz He would not met such problem during study at the first place
@EvgenyPanasyuk what? It's basic as hell. What other problems would a beginner face then?
@BartekBanachewicz you don't understand what is bloated oo
13:39
@EvgenyPanasyuk Apparently I don't. I always thought it means introducing unnecessary classes
@tom_mai78101 My profile says I'm 48. In real life I'm 10 -- but it's up to you to guess what base that's in.
@BartekBanachewicz no, it is bloated hierarchy, with god Object at the root
user142019
@BartekBanachewicz std::vector<boost::any> :v
@EvgenyPanasyuk that's completely not relevant to C++ at all, which has no such object
user142019
(Seriously just use std::tuple.)
13:40
@JerryCoffin I have no comments. :)
user142019
Dang, took away my selling points.
@ScottW "right style: no naked pointers, no bloated oo - all the good stuff"
@EvgenyPanasyuk you are saying words but I strongly believe you either don't know what they mean or you want to say something totally weird by them
user142019
@EvgenyPanasyuk "no C++"
13:42
fuck
user142019
Java is a joke.
I said that beginners should study right style, no bloated oo
I'm a Java dev. I have no opinions.
user142019
Kill him/her with fire!
13:43
@EvgenyPanasyuk how is studying OO style related to learning C++ language?
God, that's so many tags.
user142019
in Java Sucks, 4 hours ago, by elL
oops..
hi @all can you help me with [this](http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15966327/ejbexception-the-bean-encountered-a-non-application-exception?noredirect=1#comment22756792_15966327)
user142019
It's hilarious how people ask Java questions in the Java Sucks room.
@Zoidberg it's another ell
user142019
It's @Ell in disguise because he's ashamed of him using Java.
13:43
@BartekBanachewicz do you think that beginers who study C++ should study only langauge, without right style?
@EvgenyPanasyuk I haven't said that. I have said that it's completely irrelevant to the fact whether beginners should learn C++11
Which, by accident, supports better OO style, but that's not the point actually.
You asked, what is critical to learn then - my A: right style
The styles you seek, whether left or right, does not matter. What only matters is how the developers interpret them.
@EvgenyPanasyuk I asked what's critical WRT C++. Are you even reading?
Here's Stepanov's benchmark. It seems to perform well on gcc. Can someone test with VS?
13:45
I've been proposed a job where I would work on the API of the company I previously worked at
@kbok Did you take it?
I'm not sure
Since I worked on the API, I know how horrible it is
@kbok Did you quit?
But since there are few people with knowledge of this API, I can leverage my experience to negociate a higher salary
13:47
@BartekBanachewicz "so what's critical? Braces?" A: "right style: no naked pointers, no bloated oo - all the good stuff"
@tom_mai78101 Yes
@EvgenyPanasyuk dude. I thought it's apparent I was asking about C++. What's critical of C++ features for a beginner?
To be honest, the only thing that comes to mind, as a beginner C++, is the std::thread library.
> thread
> beginner
I've been looking ups and downs for a standard thread library for C++
13:50
uh uh
C++ for a beginner, huh? IMO, it's just wrong. beginners should learn better languages first
@BartekBanachewicz it is not just list feature, feature, feature, but rather consistent view on language, good style.
@StackedCrooked wtf is with GLIBCXX_ version not found
@EvgenyPanasyuk good style depends on language features.
@Abyx What better language do you suppose, if the industry standards are mainly C++ and Java?
@Abyx have you checked stroustrup.com/Programming ? - it is aimed on begginers in programming (first language)
13:51
@EvgenyPanasyuk nope. such books are boring
lol what a typo
@EvgenyPanasyuk was.
@BartekBanachewicz Haven't looked into that yet. It should work with g++-4.7 though.
@tom_mai78101 python.
@Abyx it is good book for beginner. What would you recommed for begginer than?
To the ComputerCraft mod for Minecraft. :D
13:53
@EvgenyPanasyuk Java.
@EvgenyPanasyuk It was a good book for a beginner.
FFS
why don't you recommend Borland C++
and Windows 98?
These were great tools
@BartekBanachewicz That exists right now? :O
@BartekBanachewicz you are boring
VC++ 6.0
You get COM and all the shiny things
@EvgenyPanasyuk you, on the other way, are posting the same book 3rd time, after being told countless times why this book is outdated and why you shouldn't recommend it to a beginner
13:54
@EvgenyPanasyuk for a C++ beginner, I'd recommend reading ISO/IEC 14882:2011 and writing a lot of code for practice.
@BartekBanachewicz that book is 2009. If some book just has C++11 it doesn't meant that it is good for begginer
@EvgenyPanasyuk it means exactly that
For a C++ beginner, I recommend coming here to get spit at
@EvgenyPanasyuk What about the Wrox to Wrox programmer series?
Beginners should not learn from outdated books, because they can't filter the information
13:55
@BartekBanachewicz so, every book with C++11 features is good for beginner? That is your statement? Just because it has C++11 features?
@kbok I'm being spitted at already. I'm drowning in everybody's cooties.
@EvgenyPanasyuk of course not. Where the fuck did I say that?
beginners should not learn from textbooks. only reference books are ok
"If some book just has C++11 it doesn't meant that it is good for begginer" - "it means exactly that"
Xeo
Xeo
13:56
Something broke :P
I said that begginers should learn from a) good b) c++11 books
user484068
Hey, I'm sure we all love C++11 but which compiler fully supports it yet? VC++ has many omissions and g++ still doesn't support regex!
@EvgenyPanasyuk yes, it means that if the book is outdated is not good for a beginner
@Xeo -1.#J ?
@BartekBanachewicz Are you reading messages?
13:57
@BenHanson no compiler ATM
Xeo
Xeo
I have no fucking clue :D
user484068
Nothing like learning a language from a book where the examples won't compile...
user484068
Just saying
Guys, new answer on the EE Q
Buggy test probably. He's incrementing the number alphabetically..?
13:57
@EvgenyPanasyuk I wrote ( !A -> !B ). How the fuck you came to ( A -> B ) from that? Being up-to-date is required, but the book has also to be good. What's unclear dammit
<regex> is useless http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15882991/range-of-utf-8-characters-in-c11-regex/15895746#15895746 #cpp11
Xeo
Xeo
@StackedCrooked Maybe my computer's too fast.
You are better off working with strings rather than with a char [800].
Here is example of cout from
http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/string/string/copy/
</a>r />// string::copy
#include <iostream>
#include <string>

int main ()
{
char buffer[20];
std::string str ("Test string...");
std::size_t length = str.copy(buffer,6,5);
buffer[length]='\0';
std::cout << "buffer contains: " << buffer << '\n';
return 0;
}

Here are examples of cin in this tutorial:
http://www.cplusplus.com/doc/tutorial/basic_io/
@ScottW There's a paywall
@Xeo The resolution of the timer might be different on Windows.
13:58
@BartekBanachewicz lets try again: "If some book just has C++11 it doesn't meant that it is good for begginer" agree or disagree?
@EvgenyPanasyuk agree
progress!
@ScottW Actually, one of many books, like this one, may be a subset of the entire Java books for beginners.
fuhhh, finally
Ell
Ell
13:59
@EvgenyPanasyuk that is awfully phrased!
let me try it again for you
Xeo
Xeo
> It takes a fairly long time to run
Hahaha, finishes within a second for me
Only output takes long
@EvgenyPanasyuk If the book doesn't have C++11, it's bad for a beginner. Agree or disagree?

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