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16:00
@BartekBanachewicz He does not have Internet access at home.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I keep forgetting.
@sehe C# lambdas aren't flexible enough to survive in C++.
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah, he sucks.
sbi
sbi
@R.MartinhoFernandes Poor sod.
@sbi Wokay.
16:00
C# had the opportunity to do something nice from the beginning
@DeadMG I know. Still, I like the simplicity of syntax.
Whilst C++ has to carry the burden of C
In the case of lambdas, that isn't the bigger issue.
Without pervasive garbage collection, C++ lambdas have to support solutions to problems that simply don't exist in C#.
Garbage Collectors (with one exception) suck
adding a GC to C++ would not solve the problem.
16:03
I never understood inability of C# or Java to destroy the object when it leaves the scope
existing code interop would still require C++-style lambdas.
@DeadMG Fixed :P
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ia! Ia! Cthulhu Funarg! Ph'nglui mglw'nfah Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl funarg!
3
@LucDanton that made my day. I am considering pronouncing "fhtagn" as "funarg" from now on.
You know what, I thought knowing c++ is about to make OO programs, safer programs by smart pointers, etc etc..
16:05
@BartekBanachewicz that exception being?
@thecoshman Lua, of course
sbi
sbi
@thecoshman That you do not have to care about memory, Shirley?
Megafail. http://fail0verflow.com/blog/2013/megafail.html #security #appsec
then today I got thrown a c program using g++ compiler, I did not do well at all. then got told 'C++ has lots of C'
^ oops
16:06
I dont know what to say.
@sbi for shame monkey man, for shame
I mean, in some where else, if I dared to say c++ has lots of c in it,
Semi-important question: OpenGL had the ability previously to do vertex streams (I.E., one contiguous buffer in memory for each vertex type (position, normal, texture, etc.) you wanted to draw.
I think that will get me contempt looks...
Does D3D have the same kind of stream-based capability?
16:07
you would have to be cat ignorant to say that C++ does not share a lot of syntax with C
@user1866880 The ability to comprehend some C code is probably necessary for C++ programming.
give me some example?
@user1866880 Well, it's true. But you'd only deserve contemptive looks if you were STUPID enough to use that part of the language
I can comprehend, like using raw pointers to create char arrays and sprintf sscan etc to maninupalateit
@ThePhD You mean, a vertex buffer?
16:08
@user1866880 raw pointers
@ThePhD I would be surprised if you could not...
Also, I would assume this to be, like, standard operating procedure.
@ThePhD a vertex attribute (cc @DeadMG)
@ThePhD Yes, and it's not per type.
@DeadMG Sort of, but the buffers for each kind fo thing you want to send along are completely separated. That is, positions are at 0x00ffff00, texcoords were generated at 0x00ffbb00, etc. etc. I.E., it's not one whole big buffer of interleaved data. It's non-interleaved.
@cat I think it's time to close the Auth room, perhaps just put a note to come her if needs be
16:10
@ThePhD In D3D you can use multiple streams arbitrarily.
@ThePhD yea, that's a non-interleaved VBO. and?
I thought nowadays people tend to use smart pointers, and static_cast instead of c style cast.. [ in terms of syntax ]
@BartekBanachewicz I thought it was not possible to do that. Guess I need to keep digging.
@user1866880 that's true. You shouldn't use casts at all (minimize)
@ThePhD when you call glVertexAttribPointer,, you specify the offset.
@user1866880 They do if competent.
16:12
@Bartek well, think about you have a vector or list containing pointers to different types of object derived from a base class.. cast can be done there.
@user1866880 it's implicit. (i.e. you doesn't have to cast)
@ThePhD Look at the MSDN sample for hardware instancing in D3D9.
i got to work at a place where advanced features like this is common, e.g. vectors holding objects and fire up workload via funtion pointers.. They call this a c++
@user1866880 there are a lot of companies misusing C++. That's nothing new
16:15
then I got to see a place just by using cout cin you are regarded as c++
the thing is
C++ evolved from C gradually over many years.
and everybody who stopped hanging on to it's development is stuck in the past
and some people stopped in the middle
so the reality is that there are 99 ways to do C with Classes
but C++ ain't one
That is why C99 exists.
2
@user1866880 Function pointers are available in C...
16:16
what about polymorphysm..[cant spell, sorry
@user1866880 it can be done in C.
That's regarded as C with Classes here.
thought I would be asked for those types of questions, but nothing at all.
all i can see is C here and there.
@ThePhD I guess something like ->SetStreamSource(n, buffer, offsetof(vertex, member), sizeof(vertex)); would do that.
C with Classes is the half-assed language that likes to call itself C++.
16:17
even no good IDE... (i am stuck.. feel so stupid
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah, I was trying to find the D3D11 equivalent, and haven't had much luck. Mostly got pointed to driver-level D3D11 calls...
@user1866880 that's a good feeling. keep it that way
@ThePhD IASetVertexBuffers can bind multiple buffers.
nowadays I cannot program without a decent IDE...(sobbing
C with Classes is what you get when you take a bunch of programmers used to doing things the C-way, and teach them how to write classes. It disregards most of the features of C++ in favor of "something that works".
16:19
@DeadMG So wait, I'd create a VertexBuffer for each vertex type and then pass it through? Not one VertexBuffer with some kind of stream-style indicator...?
Albeit.... I don't see any way on the buffer to say "Hey the data is NOT interleaved".
hmm
Ah well. Multiple vertex buffers it is.
Hi guys, sorry for this noob question, I have a problema in a part of my project code, is it allowed to post a question about bugs in stackoverflow? If not where can I post it?(programmers.meta...etc)
@ScottW This is why I used danger quotes. C++ only "doesn't work" when you don't know how to use it properly.
well, if you have N copies of a vertex, then normally, you would simply interleave the data, like an array of structs in C++.
16:20
BTW, does lots of companies do C++ programming just using a editor and makefile? I thought there should be something like Eclipse, ?
@newbie This is a joke, right?
@user1866880 The only remotely decent IDE for C++ is on Windows.
no..
@ThePhD You can bind the same vertex buffer multiple times, I think.
Eclipse is quite nice on linux, although hangs sometimes
16:21
@newbie SSCCE
@newbie Okay, but calling yourself "newbie" on SO is not a good way to get help.
but multiple vertex buffers is more the D3D9 way.
@DeadMG That was the idea, but for something like on-the-fly texturing, it felt easier to memcpy and Lock/Unlock or Map/Unmap or UpdateSubresource and only change the Texture Array, rather than shock-update the whole buffer.
it's what I am..
@ThePhD Right, but that has nothing to do with vertex buffers.
16:22
@newbie Yeah, but are you gonna flood SO with new usernames as you advance in your learning process?
and secondly
you're mixing static and dynamic data- this is bad.
you want 1 vertex buffer full of all your static data, and another for all your dynamic data
That aside, a running joke of this chatroom is "Don't ask whether or not you can ask a question; just ask the question".
at least
sometimes it can be helpful to use more
then you can mark the first as writeonly static and the second can be dynamic.
@Shotgun hope not
Um. Hm. Well, alright.
16:23
so use a regular vertex buffer for all the other data
then a separate vertex buffer for the special I-change-on-a-whim data
@ShotgunNinja It is?
like world matrices for instancing
Okay. That makes sense, I guess...
Then, may i ask, does any of you have commercial experience in c++ on linux unix?
@newbie, what kind of project code is it? We'd love to help, but we won't do your homework for you. Just a friendly word of caution, SO folks don't like that.
16:24
I'll just have to call the shader two times, I think.
how do they work? no decent IDE? using gdb to do command line compile?
Decent IDEs for C++, how funny.
sorry. no. gdb for command line tracing.
not compile..
@user1866880 There are a number of decent IDEs on Linux/Unix, but most of the people who use such things come from the older, more experienced camps, where they were taught to use what they had, and became proficient with that.
@R.MartinhoFernandes If I ever learn g++ .o to PDB conversion, Visual Studio might be worth it. :D
16:26
@user1866880 Most IDEs out there have gdb frontends. And there are standalone gdb frontends too.
@Shotgun it's theorical I think, not syntactic, in my poker project I have problem in the 3+ execution in the same game and I isolated the problem in a part when I create processes with fork(), it's few days that I'm trying to solve it..
yeah, i got told some people use VI.. I can live with it to edit files, but for programming? hmmmm
@ThePhD Sure....
Most commercial devs on Linux/Unix use make, automake/autoconf, some text editor of their choice, and gcc.
@R.MartinhoFernandes What? D: It'd be great. :c
16:27
Oh, and gdb for debugging.
@user1866880 No one uses vi. Some people use vim, but vi is for time travellers only.
It's actually one of my secret plans.
@R. yeah, I used gdb before, and trace my program in the little putty.. I thought it is the piculiarity of the place I worked for, I thought over the years, poeple have moved on.
Since I have an Internship at Microsoft, I might be near the Compiler group of VC++.
Use sed to develop source code, lol...
16:27
I plan to sneak in and find the resident expert on PDB and bother the living bejesus out of him.
@ThePhD Why would it be great? What does gcc bring to VS that makes it so much better?
@R.MartinhoFernandes C++11 support. :D
@user1866880 There's so much nonuniformity in the visual side of Linux/Unix that it's impossible to settle on a single GUI tool, so everyone just sticks with the tried-and-true command-line tools.
The VS debugger isn't that great, anyway.
@R.MartinhoFernandes But it's betteerrr than most other debuggers, aside from printf.
16:29
R. you dont like VS?
@ThePhD It isn't better than GDB with a decent frontend.
I haven't seen one of those, though... ;~;
I thought VS is great. I dont worry about build too much, and you can attach to a running process to trace easily
GDB can handle a bunch of stuff that VS just chokes on.
@user1866880 I think it is severely overvalued because of poor competition.
R. I would say, GDB is a core engine, VS has a nice GUI to make you run it.
16:30
@newbie Issues with fork() are nasty; that's why most people use threads. I'm guessing this is for an Operating Systems course, though...
y you're right
@user1866880 But VS does not use GDB.
GDB is a lot better than VS's backend.
doesnt matter which debugger, the idea is the same, you have a core engine to do tracing, but make running it into a GU interface, rather than command line based.
Sublime Text 2's GDB frontend is broken as hell (a plugin). Code::Blocks double-hits, triple-hits my breakpoints without ACTUALLY running the code I'm looking at. Eclipse's ability to inspect and change variables on the fly - as well as just navigate the damn code - is clunky, and when it breaks Eclipse doesn't just shutdown, it tries to keep chugging along and breaking some more. NetBeans has terrible contexting: F5 when I'm already debugging should not mean "Oh yeah, we should debug again!".
@user1866880 As I said, there are a zillion frontends for GDB.
16:32
@newbie Called it. OpSys courses are like the only places you'll ever need to know fork(), AFAIK... unless you're writing an operating system or a very simple tool, fork() has way too much overhead, and there's not quite as much benefit over simply running threads, in a modern operating system.
examples? @R.
I don't use one, so I can't really recommend one.
I don't use a debugger often, except at work, where I have to deal with one that isn't good enough (VS's).
So it seems the conclusion is linux people are still using an editor and command line tool to program...
@ShotgunNinja we did fork in our system programming class
@newbie, what have you tried so far? Any more information on what you're doing, and what you've traced it to?
@user1866880 Yeah, why wouldn't they?
16:35
@user1866880 Linuxes are people now?
@ThePhD Why don't you try writing one instead?
@melak47 No, but 'Linux' is an adjective.
@ShotgunNinja I'm elaborate a question to make it clear, few minutes and I write it
@R.MartinhoFernandes My own debugger?
@ThePhD Frontend
16:36
Stand-alone or like... I dunno. Inside VIM, maybe?
I thought, on linux, nowadays, maybe there are IDE you can use relatively conveniently like you do java in Eclipse.. seems I am totally wrong.
@newbie Okay, sounds good. Try to have information clarity, discuss the purpose of the code and your previous attempts, and include anything that led you to the point of confusion.
@ShotgunNinja that's a very linux thing to say...? no that doesn't work
@melak47 Sounds right to me.
That's not very Linux of you melak.
16:38
Just like there can be a very C way of writing C++.
@user1866880 There might be. But my experience with them isn't superior to my experience with vim+toolchain. If you like Eclipse, I know it can work for C++. My experience with Eclipse is limited to Java, and it is not positive.
You know, actually.
Eclipse is pretty bad for C++ :|
That might be a great way to learn the debugging formats.
Writing a Frontend.
All nouns double as adjectives unless there exists a corresponding adjective form.
16:39
@Rapptz Yeah, but at least it has auto-makefile generation and good build-system support.
@ThePhD You don't need that to interface with the debugger. The debugger does that itself.
@ShotgunNinja No..?
@Rapptz it's still written in java, right?:p
@Rapptz Well, then it is bad for everything...
Java IDEs always feel really sticky, though.
16:40
@ThePhD ewwwwwwwww
No, I meant, IDEs built out-of-Java.
did you mean icky?
Netbeans, Eclipse. It never feels like it fully does what you've come to expect windowing systems and other context clues in the native operating system - Linux or Windows - have done to make the user experience complete.
@ThePhD That's because they're based on Solaris' user experience.
Never had Solaris, and now do not want.
16:43
Good.
It's worse than IBM OS/2 or SGI Workstations.
I feel so bad now. In one place's test, which is test of polymophism design and implementation, I did well and was regarded quite good and thought a lot of error handling, in this place, just when I thought they want c++ skills, but they were throwing me raw buffer, low level data manipulation... I was regarded as 'technically not good'...[ sorry guys, I am in a very low mood.. sorry for the winging. ]
?_?
That was insensitive of me.
@ThePhD you are using sublime?
@bamboon Was.
16:46
@ThePhD did you use sublime clang?
I can do arrays, just it will take a bit of time. Plus they use a library I have no experience of.
I tried it.
he didn't try it
What turned me off to Sublime Text 2 was the lack of a real build system for g++.
he's lying
16:46
I did!
you didn't try SublimeClang
you don't even have Clang
What the hell Rapptz I got the Package Control Manager like you said and I installed BOTH SublimeClang and SublimeGDB >:(((
"lack of a real build system for g++" ...
??? I never told you to get SublimeClang
@Rapptz You never did, but I saw it and installed it.
16:47
How did you manage to build Clang on windows?
That's like, its own separate achievement @_@
@Rapptz ruben has binaries online.
For Clang?
^ What he said, but I didn't have thos either. I was trying to use it otherwise.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Hey, if my IDE can't cook me up a MAKE file for my files automatically, it's not a real build system.
Especially if Sublime Text 2 expects me to pay it for it's 'build' system. Or any of its other features.
Sublime Text 2 has.. one developer.
@ThePhD If you want something that generic (i.e. automatically generated), you don't need an IDE to cook up anything. You can just write one once and reuse everywhere.
16:51
you could have just ran a makefile you made via command line with the Sublime Text 2 build system
why would people be proud of working on editor and manually doing make? Is using an IDE with intellisence, auto generate makefile bad? I mean, IDE improves productivity, and leave the final build to the build engineer, is this a bad idea?
or anything
@Rapptz Boring.
really
"Build me all the files in this directory and link them together" build scripts are not something from another world. They are trivial on most build systems.
@ThePhD What.
Awesome.
16:51
Hey, what I mean by boring is,
>provide solution
>doesn't want to use it
Heeey, hold on now, it's not the kind of solution I want.
@ThePhD Why not? Do you know what VS does?
It just fires up MSBuild on your build scripts.
It is just as boring.
he made some vg++ thing
It's on Bitbucket..
Yeah, I know.
16:53
It's not just MS Build, though. It takes environment variables and library include directories and specific libraries and platform defines and turns it into compilation commands. It can do this for arbitrary projects because its build system - MS Build - is extremely modular.
@ThePhD Most build systems are extremely modular.
They also take all those things.
Stop spewing FUD.
I guess I just need to learn better MAKE then.
lol
But even then, I still have to write my own Makefile, which is an instant frowny face for me.
16:54
@ThePhD FFS.
you lazy fuck
Why do you insist on being stupid.
If all you want is "Build me all the files in this directory and link them together" you only need one Makefile forever.
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's not the only thing though!
@ThePhD Any tuning you need you would have to do by hand in VS as well.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Inside of a project file, with an incredibly easy-to-use GUI, with project-based macros and defines I can sub in at will!
16:56
1 min ago, by Rapptz
you lazy fuck
Why hasn't anybody thought to make a good project file format for non-Visual Studio!
@Rapptz Yes, I am lazy, but it's a good kind of healthy lazy.
@ThePhD The only thing you get over most other build systems is the incredibly "easy-to-use"-and-maybe-some-day-it-will-actually-be-resizable GUI.
All the other things you mentioned are par for the course everywhere.
Maybe I can illustrate what I mean..
You seem to assume that the bare minimum anything needs to be called a build system only exists on VS.

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