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06:00
This is bird's eye for the engine I told you about.
Actually this is almost the full game system.
ewwwwwwwwww
@DeadMG What's up?
where do I start?
"Managers"? really?
and WTF is the "Kernel" or "System"
or, for that matter, modules and module states?
or "Resource"?
@DeadMG Erm.. the image obviously doesn't show all the relationships between all the entities; this is not a diagram. It's just a listing of the components separated into rough categories.
I know
they're just given incredibly generic names which don't have any apparent meaning
06:02
And it's use is quite personal.. It's not exactly something to be showing, but it's all I have to show right now... xP
I mean, you don't have any apparent modules which should display a user interface, for example
@DeadMG That would be the Menu manager.
It's not a module in the software sense of "package".
did I mention that "Manager" is a terrible name?
what the hell does it mean to "Manage" something?
and why do you have both a RenderManager and a VideoSystem?
@DeadMG Well, that's a term all japanese video-games source-code I've stumbled upon use...
all Google code uses the Google Style Guide
that doesn't stop it from being a giant pile of shit
06:05
@DeadMG The Video system is a generic abstraction for OpenGL / D3D
@n2liquid Hey looks like a good start to me.
@n2liquid If you don't have a reason for doing something other than "Someone else did it", it's time to re-think your logic.
the Render manager goes on top of that, separating passes, for example
you cannot write a system that abstracts over OGL/D3D at that level, it's impossible.
@DeadMG Oh yeah, naming things is a real science, right? It's nowhere near subjective, right?
06:06
I've seen people try
and it never works
@n2liquid There's a difference between "subjective" and "arbitrary"
at the very least, you should know what it means
@DeadMG Allow me to fix that for you...
pretty sure my statement still applies- you, at least, need to know what it means.
@DeadMG And I do know what it means, obviously. Managers are a recurring pattern in software; for one, they're generally singletons.
Not in my case, though.
and Singletons are a horrifically bad idea that nobody should ever use
if Managers are generally Singletons, that makes them generally an anti-pattern.
06:09
plus, I've never seen any generic description of a "Manager"
No, just stop it, you're in denial.
what, that Singletons should be burned from the face of the earth?
cause that's pretty easy to rationally justify
You're just absolutely upfront saying I've commited every mistake humanly possible from an image you yourself understand doesn't mean much.
I'm not talking about Singletons.
the fact that it means nothing is the problem at hand
let me show you something that I made a little while ago
You're not even finished in one part of your criticism and you're jumping to the next one without giving me time to debate.
06:10
@n2liquid Too true, unfortunately. It's that time of the night morning.
Then I'm not interested.
Go drink a beer instead.
actually, on second thought, I'm not wholly sure what you're referring to
@DeadMG I'm referring to your opinions.
Having a bad morning @DeadMG?
I'm pretty sure that my criticism can be summed up by suggesting that you've given them names with little, if any, significant meaning
@Chimera My fingers can't move fast enough to keep up with what I'm thinking.
06:13
@DeadMG Identifiers inherently lack all the significance of what they identify.
not, of course, that I want to suggest that this is some personal failure- you should have seen some of my first attempts
Of course there are levels of that, but trust me, the names make sense.
Systems abstract other libraries; what did you want me to call them? PieceOfCodeThatAbstractALibrary?
"Abstractions" could work
or "Wrappers"
06:15
@DeadMG Abstractions apply to almost anything.
Yeah, I could call them wrappers..
I doubt you'd have a better idea for Managers, though.
I don't even know what your general idea of a Manager is
Let me try to explain.
(if you're interested at all)
I am.
Managers contain common state and logic for a group of objects pertaining to a particular library context.
They can be used to enumerate those objects, for example.
right
but it seems to me like you're making distinctions that don't actually exist
for example, consider the VideoSystem and the RenderManager.
06:18
In Ogre3D, Managers are Singletons, which means they could have basically used static class members instead.
a VideoSystem is worthless junk without a RenderManager, and vice versa; and they occur always in a 1:1 ratio and they cover the same area.
I like that article @n2liquid
so why not just merge them?
@Chimera Glad to hear :)
@DeadMG Why not merge them? They're two separate entities, even though they generally occur in a 1:1 ratio (unless you're doing something really strange)
06:19
@n2liquid I'm attempting to get my head around OOAD
@Chimera OOAD? You mean OOD?
@n2liquid They are only two separate entities if it makes sense to use them separately.
@n2liquid and analysis... but yeah mostly design
else, they are effectively one entity but you decided to make two public interfaces for it for ... some reason.
@DeadMG A Video System is intended to be a thin abstraction on top of D3D and OpenGL.
06:20
right
but nobody, ever except the RenderManager actually needs that.
Full abstraction if tough, and in general you have to know if you're using one of the other.
you could make it an implementation detail with no loss
But it does hide a lot of implementation-specific shenanigans.
@DeadMG You're saying abstracting D3D and OpenGL is like, something only I ever wanted to do? lol
There, there!
06:22
what I'm saying is that you don't need that.
That's why it's not cluttered with possibly useless Render logic invented by me.
you're making a game; not a re-usable set of libraries for other people to re-use
not to mention that the details of abstracting OGL and D3D at that level is extremely difficult
@DeadMG Actually, I'm making a reusable set of libraries for other people to reuse, yes.
Including myself later on.
they differ in some critical ways like ... some kind of shader input description, if I recall correctly, which makes it virtually impossible.
In case I wake up one day and say: "oh, you know what? I must've been on drugs when I wrote this Render system, I'll start from scratch."
@DeadMG Yes, the shader language is completely different. If you wanted the game to run on both, you'd either write two versions of the same shaders, or use nVidia's Cg shader language
06:24
no, I meant that you'd have to write the shader input descriptions too- not just the shaders
But an awful huge part, they are the same thing, with different names and wildly different interfaces. But the same thing.
not to mention that the shaders are most of the work
@DeadMG You mean the shader "variables"?
vertex shader inputs, specifically, if I recall correctly.
@DeadMG They're pretty much the same, that's for sure.
06:26
really? Cause I remember reading a question where some guy had a problem with it; and he had no choice but to explicitly write D3DVERTEXELEMENT9[] stuff explicitly for each kind of vertex.
Now, there are corner cases, and I don't remember exactly which right now, but there's a huge fraction of both libraries that can be abstracted away.
don't recall what OGL did
although, as far as I'm aware, you can automatically generate the D3D vertex declaration if the vertex is expressed as a tuple type.
I think a long time ago, OpenGL/D3D only supported specific elements orderings, and they clashed. I'm not sure about this, but it was something along those lines.
yeah, in the old fixed-function pipelines
not what I'm thinking about; but certainly true
FVF is a bitch :P
Yeah, exactly. FVF.
06:28
tell you an entertaining bug I had
used a mathematical support library called GLM
turns out that GLM stores quaternions in one handedness and D3D uses the other
Now both API's are pretty flexible (for real; not as in FVF Flexible)
took me a long time to find that funbucket
I've experienced similar issues before. For example, the fact that Wavefront indices are 1-based.
owch
I was getting a gibberish model on screen because of that.
Took a while to find out, but not much.
06:29
one of the things that really puts me off writing a complete 3D game is the model formats
they all seem to be giant binary messes, or specify a trillion things I don't really need
@DeadMG Yeah, I gotcha. Ogre3D "solves" this problem in a quite elegant way, imo.
difficult to consider Singleton3D as elegant
Basically they define their own format, and only accept it on the lib (unless you write your own serializers).
Instead of adding a shitton of loaders for each file format available.
So you take a way a little of the complexity in model loading from the lib itself, and leave it for the converters.
Morning :)
91
A: I'm doing 90% maintenance and 10% development, is this normal?

Nils P.S. My salary is almost equal if not lower then that of a cashier at a supermarket. Heh I wanted to write something about how to negotiate until I read that. Now all I can say is leave! Assuming that's half of what a developer with a degree usually earns. And assuming that things improve an...

06:32
@LucDanton Serves as a good insulation, though :D
anyways, to return to the point at hand :P
seems to me like you're trying to do an awful lot here
write some generic abstraction libraries for re-use, and define a game on top of that
@DeadMG Yes, it's ridiculously tough and long and overall a behemoth project gurus generally tell newbs to just give up and do something easier instead before.
I know (:
lol
well, if you're going to go for something like that, I'd approach it in two steps.
first, define and implement the abstractions; then aim for the game.
06:35
@DeadMG That would be best, but I certainly can't hold for too long with the game. I want to try to do both things simultaneously.
@n2liquid nice blog you have :)
@n2liquid That's certainly gonna end in failure :P
@Nils Thanks, man. I hope you don't find the posts there too lunatic.
I mean, for one, your intended game depends upon your intended abstractions, so you don't really have much choice about doing the abstractions first.
@DeadMG *shrugs*
Fuck, how do I escape asterisks?
06:36
*slashes*
@DeadMG Of course there's a lot of dependencies which will just have to be serialized. But certainly many things that are independent from one another and can thus be developed at the same time.
paused work on my own game system to attempt a cryptographic attack on SHA-2
For example, the map colision system is almost a lib of its own.
@n2liquid Fortunately, the game I intend to create takes place in space and doesn't have to deal with terrain collisions :P
@DeadMG And?
@DeadMG lol
06:38
@n2liquid And I think I'm making progress.
Terrain colisions are definitely the easiest colisions, though.
I keep coming across the most curious facts
@DeadMG New or previously discovered?
as far as I can tell, new
for example, two boolean formulas which give the same results given the same inputs, are not equal
They're just equivalent, right?
06:40
nope
that's where the fun is
consider the two formulas a xor (a and b) and a and (a xor b)
That sounds a bit quantum, lol.
they give completely the same output (for values of a and b)
so equal, right?
Ok, makes sense..
06:41
but actually, they're not.
Yes, I'd say definitely equal.
consider what happens if you already know the value of a xor b.
if you have the first formula, you've got jack shit.
but if you have the second, you might be able to determine the value of a (and thus b and the whole lot)
Well, shit.
06:42
yep
Brain explodes. I'm not smart enough for that.
oh... it gets worse
But I mean
consider the third equivalent formula, a and (not b)
in case you know part of one of two equivalent formulae
06:44
in which scenarios is this formula preferable to the other two?
and you're attacking one of the formulae where your known value "doesn't help"
can't you just try to find equivalent formula where it does help?
yeah
right now, I'm planning to simply attack all of them at once.
Huh.
but, of course
@DeadMG I have no idea. I'm not very fond of mathematics or pure logic.
06:45
NAND is a universal logic gate
so the complexity of any given boolean function could be extremely arbitrary
leading to the possibility of an equivalent function which I can't prepare for but would still have to deal with
@DeadMG I don't see how both things relate. That and the fact that NAND is a universal logic gate.
well
Do you mean boiling all down to NAND's would
make so that any equivalent formula would indeed look the same?
since NAND is a universal logic gate, I could be looking at a formula that solves the Schrodinger Equation for a hydrogen atom that happens to yield the same results, or someshit like that
@n2liquid Yes. Unfortunately, doing that is quite impossible.
you can "normalize" any boolean formula to a minimal form
06:48
the problem is that doing so takes exponential time for many kinds of formula
and SHA-2 as a boolean formula has a complexity of about 10^40, if not higher.
I see.
so when you talk about "Exponential in 10^40" then...
Well, can't you attack the specific formulas of SHA-2?
indeed
that's my main defence against such a thing
Why is it interesting the equivalent ones? Because they might hide specific weaknesses or something?
06:49
@n2liquid Sorry, wut?
@DeadMG I don't understand why would you be interested in formulas that are different, but which for the same set of inputs produce the same results for parts of SHA-2.
@n2liquid Because it allows greater information fluidity.
what I mean is
consider the situation I had above, where you already know some other relation between the inputs.
that information could be used to determine the inputs, if you use the correct formula
if not, then that information is wasted.
which is very bad, because you need all the information you can get
Hm, ok, I kinda see what you mean.
the trick to regaining the original input, from the output, is to preserve all the information. If you lose it like that, then you're not going to get it back.
anyway this technique is just an idea of mine; as far as I know, nobody previously seriously considered attempting to solve non-normalized versions of the formula
but I think it can be done
Odd
meh
06:54
@n2liquid Not really.
You know, you might laugh at me because of this, but I'm really terrible with algorithms, and logic, and mathematics.
normalized forms make for an elegant and efficient mathematical description of any formula, and allows you to describe and implement operations on any formula.
@n2liquid I'm not gonna laugh.
But I still consider myself a fairly good software designer, in terms of architecture.
my experience is that the teaching of them sucks donkey cock
if I wasn't a natural and a genius, a caveman would know more mathematics than me
@DeadMG Plus, I hate exercises. And I think those kinds of things are only learnable through lists of exercises. Give me the chills just to think about it.
06:56
pfft
lists of exercises are the worst way to go about it
they don't prove jack shit, and they're boring as hell.
Oh :)
the only way to prove you know an algorithm is to write a satisfactory implementation of it.
and once you have that, it's done and time to move on.
My algorithms always implement the braindead approaches.
Like brute forcing, lol.
if that's all you needed, there's nothing wrong with that
Nah; most things just don't work with braindead approaches.
06:58
well
I did write my own SSE-optimized octree
The challenges in Google Summer of Code and stuff like that, for example, are designed so that the most obvious things to do will just not work.
and Project Euler
Anyways, I gotta go. Xeo's not even here anyway; I wanted to talk to him about the game system and ended up doing that with you. What a waste ;)
hey
I'm a genius and my opinion is always worth listening to :P
@DeadMG Oh yeah. You've shown that quite clearly with your pidgeon-playing-chess approach to criticising my bird's eye sketch as if it were the full architecture.. 8D
07:01
lol
Don't get me wrong, I know you're a smart guy, obviously.
But anyways
Have a good night, whoever's still in here.
And you too, bye.
cya @n2liquid
07:59
Hi all. I have problem with SHFileOperation() when the pass of directory longer than MAX_PATH. know anybody how can i bypass it?
Jul 26 at 21:11, by jalf
If you want reliable, high quality answers quickly, use SO. If you want to gamble and maybe get a useful answer, maybe get a good answer, and maybe waste your time, feel free to ask questions here :)
@Sasha How did you end up exceeding MAX_PATH? Is nothing else breaking?
08:30
@Potatoswatter I have program that can delete file or folder with long path. I need create function that can remove file or folder with long path into recycle bin
@Sasha what os
@Sasha Try creating a series of symlinks (or whatever your platform uses) inside /tmp (or whatever your platform uses). Then you can refer to the given file without exceeding MAX_PATH, unless the number of nesting levels is also greater than MAX_PATH/2. Alternately, try navigating the current working directory (or whatever your platform uses) down the hierarchy and deleting the file using a small relative path.
MAX_PATH was quite stupid.
But, YMMV. C++ won't stop you from moving a disk from one system to another with a shorter MAX_PATH, and completely hosing the filesystem.
naturally, a whole bunch of people compiled their programs for it, and hey, now it's not the real max. what a shocker.
08:38
Not having better language for querying the filesystem is quite stupid.
I blame SQL for distracting everyone.
08:55
@thecoshman Os windows. I have solution with Delete() just need add prefix \\?\ + path file or folder . But this does not working with SHFileOperation
@DeadMG GNU Hurd does the right thing with MAX_PATH
wtf is GNU Hurd?
I do my best to stay away from anything and everything GNU
@DeadMG A kernel.
@DeadMG the missing piece in the GNU project that Linux filled
technically hurd is the collection of servers running on the microkernel
it's been "nearly ready" for something like 20 years now
This time it's nearly nearly ready!
09:13
heyo
Anybody here has a Raspberry Pi?
I’m looking at what SD card to buy and I’m stumped
I'll just use an off-the-shelf card.
I’m confused with the speed classes
the website says to use class 4 – does that mean anything > 4 is also OK?
@KonradRudolph some of them definitely don't work and some manufacturers seem to lie
09:18
But I’ve just found this:
@Flexo Well, great
@KonradRudolph Theoretically it should work, as greater = faster.
yeah it's a bit of a lame situation
I ended up with a budget play.com branded one I had lying around
I’m not really worried about price
Anybody know analog to SHFileOperation ? that can manipulate with long path?
I’m gonna try a 32GB SanDisk one then, let’s see how this goes
@Sasha IIIRC most functions can manipulate long paths when given in network path format, i.e. via \\HOSTNAME\…
Ah, damn
> SHFileOperation fails on any path prefixed with "\\?\".
ok, next step, finding an appropriate power supply
09:30
@KonradRudolph mine runs off the USB port on a DVD player
@Flexo that sounds hacky ;) The website cautions against use via USB from a computer
@Flexo <troll physics>Why not just plug it into one of the USB ports on the Raspberry Pi itself?
@KonradRudolph well, AFAIK the pi wants 700 mA and USB normally only provides 500 mA by default
@KonradRudolph it's handy behind the TV though because there's plenty of them around and mains sockets are in short supply. Everybody since really early USB has overspeced the power on USB ports
@R.MartinhoFernandes I didn't say this code isn't wrong, I answered that this is undefined behavior. But Windows is acting out a DS9k in this case... — H2CO3 1 min ago
What's a DS9k? Nevermind, got it.
it might also consider the power supply to not provide a clean enough supply, but worse case, it might prove to be a bit flaky
09:33
@R.MartinhoFernandes Death Station 9k?
@R.MartinhoFernandes I assume some sort of 'dick' reference
I.e. hardware-base Hell++.
@thecoshman DongML
the pi guys do really have some sense of humor : "Will it blend? Yes. We have conducted extensive virtual simulations. No Raspberry Pis were harmed in the testing."
09:55
@bamboon huh... so looks like I need to get me a Pi, a camera, a blender, a lighting rig... oh fuck it, I'll just take their word
Ell
Ell
Im going to start helping a friend of mine's project which is an RC car. I've looked on the internet for premade differentials but can't find any
anyway must dash, I have friends irl!

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