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05:03
@RMartinhoFernandes C++ is more and more starting to look like Haskell.
C++ scares me.
It scars some.
@Mysticial Seriously? Do you avoid it because of that?
@StackedCrooked Who said I avoided C++?
I'm asking :)
I mainly stay on the more "basic" things, but it's still C++ - I think...
05:06
lol
@Mysticial Grab some templates. It's fun.
I think everyone limits himself or herself to a subset of C++. It's only the size of the subset that varies. (That's kind of tautology considering that the entire set of features is also a subset.)
Clearly, SO needs more mods. None of them are awake right now. :P
@Mysticial Are the techniques from Effective C++ beyond your subset?
I think only two of them are in the Asian timezones?
@StackedCrooked I haven't read any C++ book since I first started.
@StackedCrooked There's always a bigger fish feature.
05:09
Don't remember the title of it. I never opened it up anyways... I always googled everything. But I know the book had a purple cover.
Effective C++ describes the most basic idioms that are used in modern c++ programming. Like the rule-of-three, etc...
@StackedCrooked My first C++ class was a high school summer class. It was 3 months and stopped just after arrays.
That's quite typical for high school classes..
First year in College was when I took my first "real" C++ class. It covered inheritance. Very basic templates. And the most common STL classes.
Nobody learned real C++ in class lol.
05:11
I did.
Later on, I was forced to learn a huge part of the STL when I interned at MS.
@Mysticial That's beyond most classes I think.
STL shouldn't be too scary.
I never learned TMP or multiple inheritance. But I know how to use the latter. (I just don't know all the pedantic details though.)
At least C++98 std. C++11 got some nifty stuff.
The former is the cool one.
05:13
I learned MS's version of smart pointers. But it was so messy that I forgot all of it as soon as I left.
@ScottW We did a C++ course and we never got beyond C except for std::cout.
I taught myself C the summer before I entered College.
@ScottW Yep, but a full year.
*C and x86 assembly
05:14
After that we switched to C#.
because I needed more performance out of my Java app
@Mysticial That sounds a bit contradictory.
I mean learning C to speed up your Java app.
@StackedCrooked That was back when my bignum stuff was all in Java. I want more performance, so I taught myself JNI and C.
During the first half of my freshman year, I started playing around with GCC inline assembly.
@ScottW somewhat
I've used JNI via SWIG :)
By the end of my Sophomore year, I had completely ditched Java and was doing everything in C with cout.
05:17
@ScottW it's a good idea to create a framework to support JNI at both the Java side (folders/path handling mostly) and the C++ side (in particular exceptions)
I recall the speedups I got from moving from Java to C as about 3x.
I got another 5x or so after learning better algorithms and better micro-optimization techniques.
Most people don't know it, I think, but the memory layout of a JNI object conforms to Microsoft COM object ABI. He he.
Then I started playing with SSE. That combined with even better optimizations got another factor of 2. And there you have it - first version of my y-cruncher program is at this time.
So I had about a 30x improvement from my Java days to the first release of that Pi programing.
Tweaking can be addictive :D
@ScottW Correct.
Either the JIT sucked back then, or my code really needed C optimizing compilers that badly.
@ScottW virtually none. It was all in my low-level code.
05:24
Java placed too high a bet on Moore's Law.
My first world record (or so I thought) was back in 2006. Using Java with JNI to C. That code was already 3x faster than raw Java.
@ScottW Nowadays? They started bragging about it in 1999.
y-cruncher v0.1.0 was 10x faster than that.
And I think my current (unreleased dev) version is almost 2x faster than v0.1.0
I remember the professor assistant talking about it with a confident attitude. Funny in retrospect.
But optimizations performed at run-time is probably the future. I think..
But it seems that JavaScript is surpassing Java in that regard :D
just benchmarked v0.1.0 and v0.6.1. 168.998 vs. 99.272 seconds...
@ScottW asking me?
05:29
I would round the numbers to 170 and 100, or even 17 and 10.
A combination of a LOT of things. It's been more than 3 years.
v0.1.0 was already very optimized at the time. I really didn't think I could do much better (at the time).
70% is actually kinda large now that I think about it. And that's with almost the same instruction set. (SSE3 in v0.1.0 and SSE4.1 in v0.6.1)
I'd say about half of it is algorithmic improvements.
Probably about 10-15% is from very aggressive automated tuning.
And the rest from micro-optimizations.
Somewhere in the middle I solved a pretty significant Amdahl's law problem. I'm not sure how much it contributed to the speedup.
In Code Complete 2nd the author describes how he implemented DES and optimized it from 20 minutes down to 20 seconds.
@StackedCrooked I don't think I can pull 60x speedups anymore. Since I'm getting better at getting a lot of things right early on.
At some point, you realize that you're getting near physical limits.
Like for example.
On my workstation.
05:41
Java has runtime introspection, reflection and stuff, so you can't compile it to an executable just like you can with C++ code. You'd still need to embed a VM in the binary.
It takes 20 seconds to allocate 48 GB of memory. (reason is here) Using that amount of memory, the machine can multiply a pair of 12 billion digit numbers in about 70 seconds.
@ScottW I don't remember what I did at the time. But in retrospect, I suspect that Java wasn't able to properly hande the 32 x 32 -> 64-bit multiplies. (GCC was able to do it.)
20 seconds to allocate, 70 seconds of work. You know you're getting close to the limit of what is possible.
It's kinda like saying. "I've optimized my non-trivial function to be as fast as a memcpy(). It's gonna be hard to do much better."
That machine has about 4 GB/s of memory bandwidth. So that's about 12 seconds just to touch all the scratch memory. The entire O( nlog(n) ) operation takes 70 seconds... which is about 5.8 memcpys.
@Mysticial I recently noticed that comparing a small buffer is faster than memcmp if you write it as a[0] == b[0] && a[1] == b[1] && .... But that's probably optimization 101 intro class :D
@ScottW Yeah, I just found out about that because you made me curious. Apparently I have been talking out of my ass again..
Okay, this guy keeps bumping his answer by making trivial edits to all the other answers...
Probably the 4th time now...
@Mystical that's pretty good considering that naive multiplication is O(n^2), and even FFT multiplication is only O(n log n)
@StackedCrooked Of course, cause you save the calling overhead.
@ScottW You also need to get rid of the loop as well.
05:50
@Mysticial People on SO sometimes seem to be in denial that memcmp could be slower than a hand-optimized solution.
@ScottW I agree. However, you should always measure. I recently got a 50% speedup by uninlining a function.
@StackedCrooked Was it a big function?
@Managu Yes. You're not the first to notice. I've had many requests for the source code (or at least the algorithm details) of that multiplication. Of course it's my little secret for now.
@Insilico No it was a small one that was called a lot. So it's seemed like a very good candidate for inlining.
@Insilico I actually uninlined just as an experiment to see the impact of inlining. The result was quite surprising :)
@StackedCrooked So perhaps it caused the calling code to not fit in the cache?
@StackedCrooked That common for trap handlers. If you have a function that is called many times. But in a small number of cases, it needs to trap into a very large function. Uninlining that large function will improve performance, since you reduce the size of code that you must jump over.
05:53
@Insilico I guess it's something like that.
Modern (desktop) CPUs really do have counterintuitive performance characteristics.
@ScottW lol...
Especially once you get to multicore stuff
and FFT multiplication (or rather Fast number-theoretic transform) multiplication tends to suffer from being good only asymptotically
05:55
I just chased a chicken through my backyard.
2
@DomagojPandža It's not your chicken?
Of course not :D
Game developer told me that they have a switch that disables dynamic allocation. This way they can enforce that allocation only happens during the loading of the game and not while playing the game. The reasoning is that allocation is expensive and would be bad for in-game performance. Weird stuff..
@DomagojPandža So it's just some random chicken appeared in your backyard?
@Managu Floating point FFTs are memory bound. Integer NTTs (number-theoretic transforms) are compute bound... Both are very hard to optimize.
05:57
@StackedCrooked: Unreal Engine 3 just hands out memory in sequential order from a buffer. And only cleans up at the end of a level. Or so I've read
Actually, it was 5 of them. Probably neighbour's. Four of them had gone over the fence, but the last one was just a brutal little chicken...
@Mysticial Have you seen any good anime recently?
@Mysticial: I'll take your word for it. I've never had reason to try to implement or optimize either.
@StackedCrooked I'm still playing catch up from vacation.
New season stuff should be coming out soon. I'll be camping tosho for all the ep1s.
I started watching Daily lives of high school boys. It's entertaining.
It's Josei though.
06:00
Though, being naive, I'd think NTT would be just as memory-bound as FFT. Unless you spend all your time doing the modulo operations. Maybe if you worked modulo the biggest known fermat prime? shrug
@Managu Yeah, they're bad. FFTs suffer from all sorts of hardware issues. It's not even funny how bad the situation is. NTTs suffer from those damn integer divisions - which is arguably the slowest operation on a processor short of a cache miss.
hi ~
Morning.
evening
06:02
Or maybe a suitably large mersenne prime? Working mod 2^n+1 or 2^n-1 should make the mod operations just shift+adds
@Managu Yep, that's what prime95 does.
It takes it a few steps further and abuses convolution wrap-around... yeah, it's messy.
oh fun. Headache...
And I think I've lost everybody in my last comment.
@Mysticial I'm ok with convolution and wrap-around but not the two together
NTT and FFTs can be used to perform convolutions. But only circular convolutions
06:07
That explains everything
Erm, what are convolution and wrap-around?
Oh, am I being obtuse now, too? heh
@Managu It's the circular part that they abuse. You recognize that mod 2^n+1 or 2^n-1 is simply the full product but adding/subtracting the lower and upper halves together. Well, that's exactly what an FFT convolution does (when weighted properly).
@ScottW Yeah, sounds like these words come from an RPG game.
Prime95 abuses this fact to cut the convolution size in half and get 2x speedup.
Now who did I lose this time?
06:08
@StackedCrooked Convolution is a "zip".
Are you like, talking about convolution kernels and stuff
@ScottW Fast Fourier Transform, if not trolling. :Đ
@Mystical: I understood what you meant when you said "abuse convolution wraparound." I'm just too tired to wrap my head around how that could possibly be used to help optimize a linear convolution.
In mathematics and, in particular, functional analysis, convolution is a mathematical operation on two functions f and g, producing a third function that is typically viewed as a modified version of one of the original functions, giving the area overlap between the two functions as a function of the amount that one of the original functions is translated. Convolution is similar to cross-correlation. It has applications that include probability, statistics, computer vision, image and signal processing, electrical engineering, and differential equations. The convolution can be define...
@Mysticial Ha! I knew it!
06:09
Specifically: Circular discrete convolution
Well yes obviously
> Once all that's working you should be able to, for example, thrust at the same time with two daggers at one or more opponents (with various penalties etc. that you might expect from attempting that) -- stabbing both eyes or doing a double kill, that kind of thing.
Woot.
does anyone know of an online ti-89 graph calculator?
@ScottW yeah, you wrap-around and kill them again - hence, "double kill"
@JohnMerlino: I recall ticalc.org had a TI-92 emulator. Way back in the day when I was into that stuff. Realize there's going to be the problem of obtaining a ROM.
thanks ill check it out
Actually, does googling "FFT" give you "Fast Fourier Transform" or "Final Fantasy Tactics". Google knows I'm a techie, so it gives me "Fast Fourier Transform" as the first hit.
FFT for me.
No Final Fantasy in sight. Second hit is for the Football Federation Tasmania.
Future Fibre Technologies
French Tennis Federation...
Food for Thought
Fast Fourier Transform wins
06:17
Finally...
Final Fantasy Tactics...
Someone likes that game?
@Mysticial Oh, it has one hit for that?
How about RPG?
I get Role-playing game first, then rocket-propelled grenade
@RMartinhoFernandes On page 2
Google has more than one page of hits? Blasphemy!
@Mysticial I get RPG disambiguation on wikipedia first.
You know you're getting desperate when you're going to the second page of hits.
RPG = "Rape Prevention Glasses"
@DomagojPandža There is no second page. Don't do drugs.
@Mystical: Umm...
06:19
@Mysticial Wut.
How the fuck can that possibly work?
Maybe if they are really, really ugly?
GI glasses are eyeglasses issued by the American military to its service members. Dysphemisms for them include the most common birth control glasses and variants. At one time they were officially designated as "Regulation Prescription Glasses", or "RPGs". This was commonly said to mean "Rape Prevention Glasses" due to their unstylish appearance. The glasses are relatively thick frames made of amber translucent plastic, with a thin metal wire extending down the center of each of the earpieces. The shape of the corrective lenses is nearly rectangular, with rounded edges, and a slight diag...
Or perhaps they're for sexual offenders
They have a specialized imaging system which renders all the pretty women as ugly grandpas.
Thus, preventing rape.
@ScottW According to that theory, those are already immune to it.
Well, if you're going to rape someone and go to jail for it, try something classy.
06:21
We went from Fourier Transforms to Rape Prevention in about 10 comments. Awesome...
4
Did you do this on purpose?
@RMartinhoFernandes no
I just noticed it. lol
Perception level up for Mystical :Đ
Please distribute 5 skillpoints to your skill tree.
26th of June
Mass Effect 3: Extended Cut
I am looking forward to seeing how they justify the endings.
@DomagojPandža They don't. They fuck up again. I'd almost be willing to bet 15 cents, which is my maximum betting amount when I'm certain.
@RMartinhoFernandes Oh hey, that question got undeleted by Jeff himself.
06:28
@Mysticial Oh, kewl.
@RMartinhoFernandes I know, right? They are too damn proud and stupid to admit their mistake recognized by 85% of their fanbase, with over 60k people just on Facebook who managed to raise over $50k.
@Mysticial And you got the tick back.
@RMartinhoFernandes Yeah. :)
When almost your entire fanbase is saying you did something wrong, you probably did fuck up.
Fuck, what a disappointment, way too much time and love put into that game from me.
@DomagojPandža That's exactly why there's no way to fix it. Even if they come up with some crazy twist as was suggested, you're still at hours and hours of playing the wrong story. Because that's what a twist means.
In RPG circles, that's called railroading and is universally known as something you can easily overdo and take the fun out of everyone.
06:34
The switch in plot from "ominous destroyers" to "organic protectors" who must kill you so the synthetics can't pisses me off the most.
That's so retarded.
Not to mention that now it makes no sense at all.
On one side, you have the geth who have made peace with the Quarians and EDI who is working her ass to protect the Normandy's crew. And then this kid tells you that the created will always assault the creators.
Why don't they just nuke the synthetics.
So inconsistent. :(
No synthetics, no problem.
06:35
And Joker runs away like a little bitch.
And the mass relays get destroyed, stranding a fleet of millions at a devastated Earth, cut off from the rest of the galaxy.
@DomagojPandža No, that's an understatement.
Destroying the mass relays is destroying the galaxy.
It's everyone on their own little world again.
But it looks pwetty.
And you get a different colour on different endings!
And I can't believe that none of the damn species managed to figure out the way mass relays and actual interstellar engines work.
They fucking outlawed it.
And messing with the keepers - outlawed.
"By using the technology of the mass relays, you develop along the paths we desire." - Sovereign
That's a good lesson, if anything from Mass Effect. When you use something without understanding it, it can very well bite you in the ass later on, be used against you when it's taken away.
@DomagojPandža Apparently, that doesn't prevent us from developing along the path of AI, which is exactly the path they don't desire. Or so they say.
I don't know how can someone destroy such a wonderful universe.
06:42
I think the best ending is dying on ME2.
It was brilliant, elegant, interesting species... I remember when I first saw a Salarian from one of the E3s, he was a bartender on the Citadel, I think. Flux.
And the way Normandy was docking overlooking the vast wards
I thought - there's my replacement for Star Trek.
The galaxy map music, uncharted worlds. Such a warm and fuzzy feeling.
How do you mess something that awesome up?
Even if you spend all of ME2 without being able to just tell TIM to fuck off and go your own way, it's still better than that plus ME3.
I was so interested into the origin of the Reapers, the species that built them.
Hoping for that stellar ending like ME1 and ME2
@DomagojPandža Turned out great, didn't it?
I don't even care anymore, I mean, since I invested so much time into that Universe on the premise that my choices matter.
They should've just let me input an RGB value
And the scene with the Grandpa and the child talking stories about "the Shepard". What the fuck was that?
06:50
@DomagojPandža Oh, they matter. They affect what gets rendered irrelevant.
How much of a dick do you have to be? To give this to millions of loyal fans?
Reaper: You can not comprehend the magnitude of our presence.
Shepard: You can not comprehend the power of a rainbow.
lol
"Mass Effect 3 is like a grand dinner at a ball. The feast begins nicely, you're enjoying everything that is being served to you. So much delicious choices, plate after plate, you're feeling full and content, ready to wrap up the evening with a smile on your face. And as the end of the ball draws near, a small plate is put in front of you, with a single scoop of dog shit on it."
That is - Mass Effect 3.
Precisely that ahahaha
Every space game I've ever tried has some flaws. Mass Effect failed, EVE Online has great presentation quality, but it falls short when you play it.
Star Trek Online is a complete and utter failure. Star Wars: Galaxies also.
The only thing that hasn't had a chance to disappoint me is SW:ToR
yet.
You have hopes for that?
Don't take this wrong, but lol
Not really, but I do hope someone will get their head out of their ass and recognize the value of a single player experience with a great story which doesn't fall short.
I really don't dig online games, the premise is awesome, but its execution is often poor. And grinding makes me sick.
I'd rather rewrite Apache's httpd in C++ than level a character in WoW to whatever the hell the cap is.
I don't know, I just feel like I'm wasting time whenever I try to play with some of my buddies.
07:08
Guild Wars was nice — cap was 20, and you could skip PvE completely, and just start with level 20 and make a character for arena PvP.
Which reminds me that I want GW2, now.
GW2 sounds nice, yeah.
WoW isn't that bad, though. Pacing was all right, and they got rid of the more boring grindy quests in Cataclysm.
I loved some of the quests in WotLK
They were quite imaginative and un-restrictive for an MMO
Also, I love their artwork.
I'd never even consider raids, but the rest is fine. Could be better, but there are far worse offenders out there.
But I simply can't do it for over 2 hours. I played Mass Effect 1, 2, 3 in two days, sleeping for 4 hours. Couldn't sleep of excitement, always asking myself what happens next.
And then the end came. -.-
Two days for each, as they came out.
07:12
44 hours? Wow.
I've finished ME1, started playing ME2, but then somehow forgot about it.
I finished ME1 in 16 hours.
I think ME2 took me around 72 hours on the second pass.
I run through it the first time, enjoying the main storyline and all that.
I finished ME1 in about 40.
But I don't fool around. The galaxy is in danger, I don't have no time to go look for shiny rocks on planets.
07:14
ME1 inventory management was a nightmare.
user457812
That's putting it lightly.
Mass Effect 3 was so entertaining. There they were, Reapers killing everything on Earth and Shepard goes back to the Citadel and talks to everyone for hours between missions.
And those guys in the lobby, the soldier and the wife, the woman soldier and her superior, they spend the entire war saying goodbye to each other in Normandy's docking port.
Also Udina, I knew that guy was a cunt.
Oh, hey, Nuclear Dawn devs gave everyone a free gift copy.
Was Dart implemented in Java?
07:20
I hate being bipolar. It is awesome.
Yup, well, it could be a fun project to apply the spec through C++
`/* Keywords. */
BREAK("break", 0),
CASE("case", 0),
CATCH("catch", 0),
CLASS("class",0),`
Cute.
I need to make myself some nice coffee.
It's going to be a long day.
@FredOverflow I love the camera guy, he fights that camera like a baws. Took him 30 seconds to make it look up
You also gotta love the audience mumbling in these talks.
@DomagojPandža The correct spelling is "BAUS" (capitals mandatory).
Hm, he doesn't really capture my attention. Gotta watch STL's talk about regexes now.
@FredOverflow cool, std:: regexes? is it on channel9?
07:52
BoostCon, I think.
Star that.
Baus * pBaus = me;
thanks guys
@Liam Naked p0int0rz.
funny how he has his named spelled on the sheet
07:59
@DomagojPandža std::shared_pointer<Liam> pBaus (&me);

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