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7:00 PM
lol
 
@FredOverflow An O'Reilly book, no less.
 
probably one of the Jesse Liberty books on C#
 
@FredOverflow Or "Different salvation mountain".
 
I wonder how long it takes to compile something like, say, Battlefield 3, or Windows 7....
 
@StackedCrooked Do you think Anders would take this as a complement or an offense? ;)
 
7:02 PM
Hm..
 
@Drise I would guess somewhere in the range of 12 hours, depending on your equipment of course.
 
@Drise Six to eight weeks.
 
Come on :)
 
Unit testing has to blow...
 
7:03 PM
(n)SFW?
 
That's a stupid website, it doesn't even say what takes 6 to 8 weeks.
 
I usually warn of NSFW stuff I post. That is, other than TVTropes.
 
Old reddit joke... :)
 
hehe :p
 
7:05 PM
Still SFW?
 
Yeah.
 
@Drise stackoverflow.com/questions/226377/… "it takes 12 hours to compile and link the system"
 
I think that's probably a requirement.
 
@MooingDuck Thanks.
 
@Drise That was Windows NT/2000
 
7:08 PM
Can I ask make to watch it's ram usage? make -j can consume 11.2 out of my 11.8 on my regular builds....
 
sbi
@FredO: I think I just found out why you keep dreaming of Stroustrup. There's so many interesting Stroustrups out there: Mia, Bogdan , Zandra , Basio , Mike ...
 
@Drise I know that our OS (for a router) takes about 40 minutes to compile. but that is on a buildfarm, gcc 4.6 and I don't think we enable any optimisations for those builds.
 
@KillianDS Ouch. Unit testing has to be near impossible.
 
Vaguely related story (that I may have told before): The first SPARC IIi (or maybe III, don't remember for sure) got to Sun, but contained a defect: one of the cache lines didn't work at all. It arrived Friday afternoon. By Mondy, they'd rewritten the OS to never allocate memory at addresses that would go in that cache line, rebuilt it completely, had the OS booting and running on the defective chip (and yes, it's barely possible at least one person did a tiny bit of overtime that weekend...)
 
@Drise That's about the only thing we suck at in our development cycle. There is no concept of unit testing at program interface level. It's programming -> functional QA. But in any way, building and testing is no problem, an incremental build is a few minutes
 
sbi
7:10 PM
@FredOverflow I think you're missing the point there.
 
@KillianDS How do you test to make sure the code works before building on top of that code?
 
sbi
@Drise Why? Isn't unit testing about testing individual pieces ("units"?) of the app?
 
@MooingDuck Read it again. "We've adapted the process since Windows 2000", indicating that it's something later (i.e., at least XP).
 
@sbi Maybe I mean: write code -> test / build/ check for errors -> write more code on top of the code in step 1 -> ...
@RadekSlupik I had to click the link to see what you could possibly decide to link to for that.
 
7:12 PM
 
@Drise Functional QA, we currently have about a 2.5:1 test:programming ratio, unit testing is not the only kind of verification that exists.
 
sbi
@Drise I once worked in a multi-MLoC project. Builds on a (then standard) singe core processor took 50-60mins. My part was a bit above 100kLoC, including an extensive test suite. If I had to fix or add a feature, I would start writing a test, and then fix/add the code until the test succeeded. If everything worked, I'd go to the pool table for an hour, and then come back and test in the real app.
 
That's... neat?
 
sbi
 
@Drise stupid tooltip fucks it up.
 
sbi
7:16 PM
@RadekSlupik Actually, this is the original tooltip as on xkcd.com.
 
@sbi stop linking softcore pr0n.
 
who can't handle that?
 
I can, but you know.
 
sbi
@RadekSlupik That's the facebook profile page of one Mina Stroustrup.
 
Hardcore is better.
 
@sbi I don't care.
 
but we can't link hardcore here
 
We can but we'll get banned.
 
posted on June 20, 2012

The ability to allow index variables to stray safely outside their bounds is intimately tied to the data structures that those index variables represent.

 
7:17 PM
I like Helvetica Neue UltraLight.
 
@Drise link is broken
 
sbi
@RadekSlupik But, but, but that's the inventor of all of us here!
@MooingDuck No MTV in 3D.
 
@MooingDuck Exactly. I <3 404.
 
sbi
@RadekSlupik Awesome name for a progressive rock band.
 
anyone else like to use comic sans as a code font? :)
 
7:21 PM
I dislike people who use sans serif fonts for code (Times New Roman, for example).
 
sbi
@Drise Proportional fonts is even worse. (Actually, TNR is a proportional serif font.)
 
Ohgawd.
 
there's worse fonts you could use :)
 
@Drise pretty sure Times New Roman is with serifs, not sans serifs.
 
@sbi It's a font.
 
7:23 PM
@melak47 the goggles, they do NOTHING! :(
 
@FredOverflow @sbi Sorry, got the terms confused.
lol @DeadMG
 
@Drise I use Monaco, which is a sans serif font. I dislike you too.
 
sbi
@melak47 Yeah, awful choice of colors.
 
@RadekSlupik I meant to say serif.
 
I'm a little disappointed that visual studio doesn't let you use wingdings, though.
 
7:24 PM
I use Consolas.
 
WINGDINGS CODING IS BEAST MODE CODING
 
@Drise I sometimes use Courier for coding, which is a slab serif font. Is that OK?
Courier rulez.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes: Is you here?
 
Also Times New Roman is damn ugly.
 
God bless the bacon, and may it be with you all.
Someone should make a bacon font.
 
7:27 PM
@JimNorton Everything would get all greasy and such.
 
> I don't claim that C++ is perfect. There is a lot of really horrible C++ code out there, because many programmers haven't learned to use C++ well. I encourage people to look at my home pages, papers and books for ideas about how to improve their code. My impression is that most C++ code could have been much cleaner, maintainable and efficient than it is had the designers and programmers understood up-to-date C++ features and techniques.
> Standard C++ really does make possible programming techniques that were infeasible ten years ago. Unfortunately, many are constrained or feel constrained to use C++ as it stood ten years ago, or they simply use it as a better C.
 
@RadekSlupik That's quite unreadable :P
 
But it's a bacon font!
 
sbi
Aug 7 '11 at 19:38, by R. Martinho Fernandes
Ivan Petrovich Pavlov (; February 27, 1936) was a famous Russian physiologist. Inspired by the progressive ideas which D. I. Pisarev, the most eminent of the Russian literary critics of the 1860s and I. M. Sechenov, the father of Russian physiology, were spreading, Pavlov abandoned his religious career and decided to devote his life to science. In 1870 he enrolled in the physics and mathematics faculty at the University of Saint Petersburg to take the course in natural science. Life and research Ivan Pavlov was born in Ryazan in the Central Federal District of Russia, where his father...
I am truly sorry, but I couldn't stop myself from reporting this epic Wikipedia oneboxing fail...
 
7:29 PM
But yeah, calligraphic font families are never very readable.
 
@Drise But it would be the best font!
 
sbi
And one more. (Sorry, but this is the one I have been looking for all the time. I promise to stop now.):
Jul 31 '11 at 13:56, by Als
An engineer is a professional practitioner of engineering, concerned with applying scientific knowledge, mathematics and ingenuity to develop solutions for technical and practical problems. Engineers design materials, structures, machines and systems while considering the limitations imposed by practicality, safety and cost. Engineers are grounded in applied sciences, and their work in research and development is distinct from the basic research focus of scientists. The work of engineers forms the link between scientific discoveries and their subsequent applications to human needs. R...
This one's really bad.
 
@FredOverflow You've published books on C++?
 
sbi
@JimNorton He isn't just dreaming of Stroustrup, he is feeling like he is Stroustrup.
Really, this reads like a Stroustrup quote.
 
7:32 PM
@sbi No, he is Stroustrup.
 
@sbi you got any nice color schemes for C++? :)
 
sbi
@RadekSlupik His German is too good for that.
@melak47 I was only joking, you know?
 
@sbi regardless :)
 
@sbi That's what he want you to think.
 
sbi
@RadekSlupik No, that's what I picked up here over the years.
 
7:35 PM
@JimNorton What on earth makes you think that?
 
@FredOverflow You quoted somebody and @JimNorton thought you quoted yourself.
> I encourage people to look at my home pages, papers and books for ideas about how to improve their code.
 
3 mins ago, by sbi
Really, this reads like a Stroustrup quote.
 
People really flag anything in the other rooms.
 
Because I wasn't aware it was a Bjourne quote. But I do now.
http://taskboy.com/blog/?bid=326
@EtiennedeMartel What other rooms are worth paying attention to?
 
sbi
@melak47 TBH, I don't care all that much. I have used many color-schemes over the years, mostly those that were preset with whatever editor/IDE I was using at the time, only slightly modified. I like keywords to really stand out, and I like to color comments in a light gray and italic, so that they're less intrusive. Beyond that, everything is luxury and a question of getting used to.
When I was using VAX, I liked the many different colors it is able to apply, but changed them to different tones, to not to be overwhelmed by preset candy appearance.
 
7:39 PM
@sbi hehe
the colors VS 2012 shipped with looked too similar to 3ds max' assortment of "random" colors. i.e. barf
 
sbi
@JimNorton You might want to read the newbie hints, linked from the right-hand panel. Among other things, that explain that, if you're >10k rep, you see all the flags across all the rooms.
 
@sbi I asked what other rooms are worth paying attention to, or participating in. I don't need to know who can flag or see flags.
@sbi But thanks for the advice.
 
@JimNorton Zing.
 
That Bjourne quote is likely applicable to most all other languages.
 
sbi
7:43 PM
@JimNorton Yeah, but you asked in response to @Etienne speaking about flags in other rooms. It seemd (and still does seem, actually), like you think he's been to those rooms. That's not true. He's just annoyed by seeing the flags.
 
@JimNorton His name is Bjarne Stroustrup btw.
 
@sbi Ok gotcha.
@FredOverflow Thanks for the info. Is this correct Jim day? :-)
 
@sbi Thank you.
 
I really feel like saying f you... but I won't..
 
@JimNorton This is the lounge, I'm allowed to be pedantic ;)
 
7:45 PM
@FredOverflow This is true.
@FredOverflow My bad, I didn't show the proper reverence to your God... :-)
 
Thanks. I'll go back to my Bjarne shrine now.
 
@FredOverflow Lol ok.. :-)
 
Bjarne told me to #define Bjourne Bjarne and all is forgiven.
 
What book do you all recommend for learning C++? I have the latest edition of "Thinking in C++" by Eckel.
@FredOverflow Oh thank you Bjourne.
 
1242
Q: The Definitive C++ Book Guide and List

grepsedawkThis question attempts to collect the few pearls among the dozens of bad C++ books that are released every year. Unlike many other programming languages, which are often picked up on the go from tutorials found on the Internet, few are able to quickly pick up C++ without studying a good C++ book...

@JimNorton Does he still claim that temporary objects are automatically const (which they aren't)?
 
7:54 PM
@FredOverflow Thanks. I've been programming in C and other languages for over 20 years, but only a little C++.. So I'm looking for a book that doesn't start which "this is a variable" stuff, but instead teaches C++ to experienced developers.
 
Accelerated C++ would probably be a good choice then.
 
@FredOverflow I don't know. I didn't far into the book yet. I've been too busy trying to learn GTK/Cairo for some work projects.
@FredOverflow Thanks I will check it out then....
 
sbi
@JimNorton Repeat after me: This is the C++ Lounge. Our Almighty God is Pedantry. It will lead us to Flawless Code. We worship Pedantry mercilessly. Now repeat. And repeat again. And again. Again. Yet again. And another time. Now one more time. — Feels more familiar by now? Good. Do this exercise twelve times a day, once every hour, for four weeks. Then report back. We'll then consider declaring you a Lounge Novice, and you'd be allowed to collect our garbage wise mutterings.
5
 
@FredOverflow I know this is completely off topic, and may be kinda weird, but. Whoever that is in your gravatar is pretty hot.
 
@Drise What is your sexual orientation, if I may ask? :)
 
7:56 PM
@FredOverflow Whatever I feel like at the time. Its been known to range from completely straight to completely gay.
 
@sbi Lol ... YES sir! It will be done.
 
Anyway, that's me in the picture, and unless you're a women, I'm afraid there's no way I'm going to be able to feel the same attraction. Sorry ;)
 
@FredOverflow All is good. I thought I'd just pay a compliment to a fellow geek/nerd/whatever tickles your fancy.
 
sbi
@JimNorton Expecting you back on Friday, July, 20th, for the Novice rite. (Prepare yourself well, not all of the sloppy applicants survived those.)
 
7:58 PM
@Drise I consider myself a mix of geek and nerd... a "greek" maybe? lol
 
@sbi Do I get some material to prepare for the novice rite?
 
sbi
@FredOverflow A "gird".
 
@FredOverflow I hate greeks (fraternity / sorority). They are assholes.
 
sbi
@JimNorton Repeat after me: This is the C++ Lounge. Our Almighty God is Pedantry. It will lead us to Flawless Code. We worship Pedantry mercilessly. Now repeat. And repeat again. And again. Again. Yet again. And another time. Now one more time. — Feels more familiar by now? Good. Do this exercise twelve times a day, once every hour, for four weeks.
 
@sbi Ah that is the material... I will prepare diligently!
 
8:00 PM
@Drise Have you seen the soccer game between the Greeks and the Germans? :)
 
@FredOverflow No, I haven't.
 
sbi
@JimNorton For a moment, my browser showed this unedited message of yours above the one of me it refers to. I was starting to have doubts about physics. Then I reloaded this page, and the world went causal again. Phew.
 
@sbi lol
 
sbi
@FredOverflow It's on Friday. That's the day after tomorrow! Now you're again starting to make me question causal physics!
 
8:03 PM
@JimNorton This needs some 'shopping.
 
sbi
@JimNorton I remember seeing that interview. It's relatively recent, I think, and it was pretty good. (Although they asked for too many irrelevant things, IMO.)
 
@EtiennedeMartel Yeah.. I'm thinking a halo?
or a crown?
@sbi I haven't listened to it yet.
 
@sbi I meant the classic Monty Python version of it.
 
@JimNorton You're too kind.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Thank you. I'm that way... a very kind person... :-)
 
8:14 PM
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: This is the C++ Lounge. Our Almighty God is Pedantry. It will lead us to Flawless Code. We worship Pedantry mercilessly. [c++] [c++11] [c++-faq]
3
It it's only appropriate :)
 
hm, does anyone know any high res wallpaper places? having bit of a hard time finding stuff that fits
 
Google knows
 
@melak47 wallbase.cc
 
@melak47 interfacelift.com
 
8:17 PM
@melak47 wallbase.net
 
thanks
I'm was hoping for bigger pictures though
googling "wallpaper" for larger than 40 MP gets a whole 7 pages of results :/
 
Anyone noticed the new blog at fpcomplete.com/blog (posts to date by B. Milewski) /cc @RMartinhoFernandes
 
@melak47 Do you have Photoshop or Gimp? They both do a decent job of upscaling images...
 
hm.
 
But do it in increments for a better result.
 
8:23 PM
I don't actually need 40MP images
but google's search options aren't that fine grained..
 
@sehe ohhh monads
 
yum
 
I suppose I'm looking for a site that will let me search for images >= 6400x1440
 
not that I have fully been able to bend my brain around them
:/
 
Sometimes VS just says "fuck it" and stops giving me autocompletion.
 
8:25 PM
@DeadMG Sorry, was playing something. What's up?
 
@EtiennedeMartel maybe it's trying to tell you that you should know that stuff by now :p
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I've got a slight problem.
been thinking some more about how I'mma implement my Wide compiler
and I've come back to the problem of managing the memory for dynamically created types&shit
can't reference count them because they have circular references, and my previous plan won't work if I want incremental compilation
 
any good/bad experience with anjuta ide?
 
@DeadMG weak references?
@CheersandhthAlf never heard of it
 
@TonyTheLion How would I know when to apply them?
 
@DeadMG That is starting to sound like a full-blown GC.
 
@DeadMG Well, the only way I'd know is to keep a graph of all objects
 
agree
 
and then you can spot circular references easily, and handle accordingly
 
@TonyTheLion Better implement a GC then.
 
8:29 PM
it would be somewhat of a bitch to implement, though
 
@EtiennedeMartel basically, that yes
 
I mean, for one, the compiler process is written in C++ :P
 
@DeadMG you'll learn a thing or two along the way, should be funzies :P
unless you want to use a 3rd party GC
 
@sehe That is an excellent article. Thank you.
 
but not sure what your policy is with 3rd party stuff
 
8:32 PM
how does one obtain the g++ source code to compile on Windows?
 
@TonyTheLion I think he has a policy against crap, not necessarily against all 3rd party stuff..
 
well, I think that mainly, I would have to fully resolve the issues of integrating a GC within the language, such as how it interacts with the other features and memory/type safety
there's little point of having to implement a GC within Wide, to then not offer that feature to the users
 
@DeadMG OOooh yes. Especially if you want to multi-thread it.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Stop-the-world is fine for me.
 
There's the boehm-gc.
 
8:34 PM
@DeadMG Alright. Then it's trivial to do.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Don't think it has a Wide implementation :P
 
@DeadMG are you implementing the Wide GC in Wide
 
@DeadMG So you are ok with non-realtime?
 
You don't need a Wide implementation (at least not now). If you were to write it yourself, I suppose you wouldn't do it in Wide, what with it not really existing yet and all.
 
Because a basic, stop-the-world mark-and-sweep GC is incredibly simple to write.
 
8:35 PM
@EtiennedeMartel It becomes a little harder when you interpose it with traditional C++ memory unsafety.
 
@DeadMG Yeah, managing the heap is going to be a bitch.
 
I don't know much about GC's, but would it then have different Generations? In it simplest form
 
@TonyTheLion That would involve moving (as in, changing memory location, not in the C++ sense) things around. Definitely not trivial.
 
@TonyTheLion No. The simplest GC (except the null GC, of course) has a single heap and does not compact.
 
Yeah, that's easy, but pretty much worthless to offer your users.
 
8:37 PM
Indeed, it's useful for academic purposes, as we all have to start somewhere, but it has no value in the field.
 
Why would you want a GC? Isn't it good enough to force programmers to learn to free any allocated memory on their own?
 
@JimNorton Please leave the room.
 
@JimNorton No, because that would mean they would have to write their own GC.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Why should I leave?
 
You're blaspheming :P
 
8:38 PM
@JimNorton Because, as I have pointed out in the origins of this conversation, it is undecidable when to free the memory except by garbage collection.
 
@JimNorton ever written C? manual memory management is painful
and very error prone
 
@DeadMG Excuse me... I haven't followed the entire conversation.
@TonyTheLion Yes a lot of it.
 
Whatever scheme you come up with to solve this issue, people call it garbage collection.
 
COLLECT ALL THE GARBAGE
@JimNorton you didn't find it error prone or painful?
you never got memory leaks?
 
@TonyTheLion he never cared about memory leaks
 
user457812
8:41 PM
Memory leaks are a feature, not a bug.
 
well, ultimately, I'm not putting it under heavy load, so I don't think that the initial implementation is going to be difficult
 
Well, I think these two are the best choices. #1 write a basic specialized GC just for this task. #2 grab an off-the-shelf GC and figure out proper semantics to put it in the language.
 
Garbage collection FTW
 
user457812
Death be upon garbage collection.
 
Anything else is probably too much hassle for an initial implementation.
 
8:42 PM
no
the initial implementation is, "Create a 64bit process and let the OS page out the leaks" :P
 
@DeadMG huh?
 
Ell
hi guys
 
64bit process can clean themselves?
 
Ell
anyone seen the HP gemini server infrastructure thing?
 
8:44 PM
@TonyTheLion I have. But over the years I've learned to reduce the number I create and the ability to find them.
 
@TonyTheLion No.
 
@TonyTheLion No, but they have bigger address spaces, so leaks aren't as noticeable.
 
the point is that a 64bit process has more than enough address space to leak a little even for a very long time
 
Note: Never attach fly ribbon traps to walls. It is impossible to remove.
 
and the OS can page out infrequently used pages
 
8:45 PM
So you end up with leaks all over your hard drive?
 
@Drise GG
@EtiennedeMartel Until I kill the process.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Serious. If you want to leave I will.
 
@JimNorton Hmm?
If you want to leave, leave. I wasn't actually being serious.
 
Ok
It's hard to tell without a :-) or something else.
 
8:47 PM
Before I read that: FUD?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes See edit: yes.
(for a tl;dr scroll to the end of the post and look at the summary table)
 
@JimNorton Alright, here's a thing about me: I rarely use smileys (generaly, only once per month), but I'm also rarely serious (I do get angry at trolls, but it's mostly to scare them off when they piss me off, and I don't hold a grudge).
 
Interestingly, valid, high-level C++ code beats even manual memory management and the UB code (see my comment on that blog)
 
Meh, shrink_to_fit()
 
@EtiennedeMartel Did I piss you off?
 
8:49 PM
@KonradRudolph This guy has the same name as a famous Québécois comedian.
 
"Suppose I want to create an array in C++ containing the numbers from 0 to N in increasing order. Then I want to compute the sum." Meh, lazy sequences.
 
@EtiennedeMartel He is Québécois
as far as I know
 
@KonradRudolph Yeah, I noticed.
He's from Montreal, and with a name like that...
 
@KonradRudolph Where's the UB?
 
@DeadMG Sorry, paragraph below the table
he suggets using reserve and then just accessing the elements via [] … without resizing first
 
8:50 PM
oh
 
to be fair, he doesn’t advocate this method, he just mentions it
 
that's le bad
 
Oh yeah. In real world code, how often do you store ints in a vector?
 
nevertheless, I was surprised that you can beat manual allocation here, using iterators. Wouldn’t have thought that
 
@KonradRudolph He doesn't mention how he did his benchmarks.
 
8:52 PM
@EtiennedeMartel He provided the code.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Oh.
 
he’s one of those exemplary scientists who makes all his data / methods publicly available
I often occasionally find myself disagreeing with him but I have to admire is rigour and scientific integrity
 
Why do you even store the sequence in the vector?
You can just slap the iterators onto std::sum.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Because that was the whole point of the benchmark
 
@KonradRudolph He's a university professor.
 
8:54 PM
It measures allocation, not summing
@EtiennedeMartel Yes, I know. Doesn’t mean that what I admire in him is a given
 
Your iotas are not random-access. How can the vector preallocate properly? The compiler must be doing a hell of a good job on this.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Yes, that’s why I’m so surprised
 
iotas?
 
that said, I could actually make them random – why not? – and the compiler would be able to benefit from that (in theory; it appears to be already doing this)
 
I gotta sleep.
Bye.
 
8:58 PM
Back to work for me. Take care everybody.
 

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