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00:00
@angryInsomniac the concept of a "dummy" object is not needed in C++ that I'm aware of
Say, the creation or destruction of an object (as a reference) fails halfway.
Wouldn't it be nice to be possible to see if the reference is valid or not ?(other than getting a ref to a corrupted object)
breakthrough!
i know how to solve my problem
I just don't know how to code it! lololol
@manasij7479 While construction of an object can fail, binding an object to a reference cannot. It also takes quite a lot of effort to obtain a dangling reference. In any case, pointers have a null value and yet it's still not possible to check if a pointer is valid or not (other than it being 0).
@manasij7479 if the object failed to be constructed, you couldn't have a reference to it anyway. If you have a reference to an object, it's lifetime is extended. Either way, the reference is always valid
@LucDanton I don't think it's portably or reliably possible to check if a pointer is valid or not.
00:16
That is what I was saying..
There should be a way to make something for references which is equivalent to nullptr.
So, If I don't want to bind an actual object to a reference, I may not.
optional<T&> is here for that. Tacking a null value onto T& however adds gratuitous (cyclomatic) complexity for all uses of T&, even if that null value is not needed.
So it's a feature that references are not nullable and there is a superior alternative to having a null value for references.
Thanks.. that is new for me.
@manasij7479 if you want a reference that can be NULL, try a pointer instead. That's why they're different.
Well, look at it this way: have you ever needed double sqrt(double); to maybe accept a double value? sqrt(nullptr); has no use right? So when you do have a case where you maybe want to accept a double value when writing an interface you can use void foo(optional<double>);. Making the whole type have a null value just in case someone might need it is overkill.
Konrad may have went to bed before me :)
0
A: Left factorisation in Parsing Expression Grammar

seheAs proposed in chat you could start out with something like: expression = addition | simple; addition = simple >> ( ('+' > expression) | ('-' > expression) ); simple = '(' > expression > ')' | call | unary | number; call = id >> *expression; unary = qi::...

finally posted something useful (I think) at his question. Now I'm off to bed.
@ScottW night :) (shouldn't you be awake now?)
00:25
@LucDanton the obvious retort is you should make sure that it exists before calling sqrt. I think it can be used for easy workarounds for problems, but I don't think that's a good use-case
@LucDanton better use case might be returning an object by value, or nothing.
I was talking about the case, where the return is optional, not the argument.
@MooingDuck That's not a retort. The check is a symptom of the additional cyclomatic complexity. If double is not nullable, then the codepath that the check watches out for doesn't even exist. That's what 'additional complexity' is about.
@manasij7479 in that case you use optional (which isn't part of the C++ standard library is it?) It's in boost.
Xeo
Xeo
I'm talking with @EricNiebler about monads at C++Now! http://cppnow.org/session/variadic-template-metaprogramming-using-monads/
@manasij7479 Sure. optional<double> sqrt(double);. No return value for negative input!
Xeo
Xeo
00:26
@RMartinhoFernandes @FredOverflow @CatPlusPlus ^^
@Xeo Ow sounds like it could be cool
@LucDanton no I meant there's non reason for sqrt to take an optional. There's reason to return an optional though. sqrt(-1);
Xeo
Xeo
@sehe Indeed
@LucDanton hm, lag. Didn't see that yet.
0
Q: How to introduce a computer illiterate 50-year old to programming

sundayThe other day my dad asked me a question that I would have never expected from him. "How can I learn C++?" My dad is turning 56 this year and computers are a distant concept for him. He doesn't know how to use a phone very well besides calling numbers (no speed dial or contacts); though he has ...

Close or migrate?
00:28
@Xeo I usually appreciate Eric Niebler quite a bit more as a C++ programmer (Proto, Phoenix, what not), but seeing Bartosz's interest in Haskell, I'm really quite interested what they come up with. Niebler can do most anything, and Bartosz will keep the big picture, I hope.
@MooingDuck Well yeah. The whole point as that when you do want a way to have null values, you want it in a way that doesn't affect the whole type. As that would affect interfaces (like sqrt) that are otherwise straightforward.
@Mysticial migrate
@LucDanton Till now, I used to return a std::pair containing the object and a bool in such cases.. but I see that this could be more 'elegant' .
wtf, it didn't migrate?
Xeo
Xeo
@Mysticial Eh...
00:30
To sum up, sqrt doesn't need optional (for its parameter), so if someone needs a null value for foo then it makes more sense to allow void foo(optional<double>); than to put the burden on sqrt (and others) to have to deal with those null values.
@Mysticial Conflicting destinations -> no migrate
Xeo
Xeo
Reopen and reclose
@manasij7479 In fact std::pair<bool, T> is problematic when T is expensive to construct and/or not default constructible: what value should the second member of the pair take?
@manasij7479 boost::optional<T> might be something
@Xeo It'll probably happen again. Should just flag it for a mod to migrate it.
00:31
How is std::shared_ptr typically implemented? does it actually new an integral counter or does it use linked lists?
Xeo
Xeo
@Mysticial We got more than 5 people here who can vote to migrate
Just saw optional was mentioned, before
Xeo
Xeo
@bitmask new internal counter
@sehe That was the topic.. btw.
Xeo
Xeo
Boost actually did a performance test on both versions
00:32
@manasij7479 ^^
Xeo
Xeo
You can find it in their shared_ptr faq
@Xeo: any references to that?
ah!
great
@bitmask if you use make_shared it uses fewer allocations.
common sense would tell me new'ing is slower, but I'll have a look at their results
@bitmask make_shared only does one allocation for the counter and the object.
00:34
@bitmask Careful, both std::shared_ptr and boost::shared_ptr both come with thread safety guarantees. Fulfilling those guarantees with lists may be very hard to implement, let alone implement efficiently.
@bitmask Why?
how could you use a linked list without using new to new up the LL node?
@bitmask slower to make, faster and safer to update
Xeo
Xeo
@Mysticial, vote to delete the question. It's a cross-post from P.SE, it was there first actually.
Yeah, I just noticed...
@LucDanton Yeah, I wasn't considering that ...
@DeadMG You can embed the pointers in your shared_ptr object
I did an implementation once, out of necessity
00:37
right
and how, exactly, would that lead to reference counting?
oh, no, wait, I think I see your scheme
If your node is the only one left (left and right pointers point to yourself) you have to release
it won't work because you can't type-erase the deleter#
@DeadMG here:
1
Q: Shared Pointer implementation

bitmaskBefore you say anything: Due to project constraints, we cannot use Boost and we cannot use C++11 (yet; perhaps this will change some day). The fact that I was unable to use smart pointers was nagging on me for some time, so I decided to cough up my own implementation, and it was surprisingly sim...

@DeadMG he didn't use type-erasure
oh he did!
00:40
@Xeo: I specifically asked for that :)
Somebody just spammed that question into at least 3 rooms... lol
actually, right now that version evolved into something where you can actually release in O(1) time
@bitmask it never dawned on me that it might be anything else. If it were, I'd hurt someone.
@MooingDuck: People get the funniest ideas when they hear linked list
Xeo
Xeo
Omg, I actually flagged something!
1 message moved to bin
00:52
I have come to the official conclusion that I require additional nourishment
Xeo
Xeo
And I need sleep. G'night o/
night
@Xeo Got the link to that?
01:22
@Xeo: Thanks for that.
01:49
wow
I actually need to use source control
Drawn Together is hilarious
02:07
well, this is interesting: appl.com/init
02:21
ohhhh fuggery
why oh why do incomplete types exist
02:35
also, GLM docs, why you suck
02:55
how long does it take to iterate to 10^18
too long?
@user1123950 yes
like weeks?
user406009
Well it highly depends on what you are doing each iteration.
depends on what you're doing. A couple hours to iterate integers. Several galaxies if doing multiplication
not really
1GHz = 4x10^9 ops/sec
even if you only ever incremented the loop counter, you're still talking about 10^9 seconds to get there
which is a lot longer than a couple hours
something in the realm of several years, if I'm not mistaken
user406009
02:57
He can't just increment the loop counter. The counter is not big enough.
user406009
He needs to have multiple counters and if statements.
ok then
@EthanSteinberg A 64bit counter should be enough, I'd say
(10^9) seconds = 31.6887646 years (assuming impossible conditions), double or triple that for possible
02:57
damn
@MooingDuck That's not really true. I ignored the fact that, for example, a processor can issue multiple instructions per clock, compiler optimizations, concurrency/spreading the work, etc
user406009
Ah shoot, off by a couple of order of magnitude. Thought 64 bits was around 1e12
@DeadMG I'm assuming he at least has a for loop, which is two or three ops per iteration
but that's still many months for a single CPU to just operate so many increments, let alone whatever else he need to do per iteration
@MooingDuck I assume the compiler would unroll the loop :P
@DeadMG you'd hope, I ran into situations where MSVC didn't
03:00
@EthanSteinberg 2^64 = (2^32)^2, 2^32 = 4.something x10^9, so (4x10^9) ^2, = 16 x 10^18
which is definitely big enough to go to 10^18
not an experience you'd find pleasant iterating so far, I'd say
2^64 = 1.84467441 × 10^19
@DeadMG you were pretty close there
@MooingDuck Of course, it's an approximation, but the scale should be right
@DeadMG off by about 15%, that's good for head-math
(which was the 4.something)
yeah
of course, when you multiply by such large numbers, the .something starts to add up
anyone know of a tool I can run to identify what/if encryption is used like SSL/TLS?
03:09
0
Q: C++ compiler fatal errors

user1131997I have caught such errors from my compiler: error C2208: 'Sort' : no members defined using this type And:fatal error C1075: end of file found before the left brace '{' at /dir/this_file.cpp(32)' was matched Please , give a piece of advice how to solve these problems? Thanks, Best Regards! #in...

2^64 = 2^4 * 2^60 = 16 * 10^(60/3.33) = 16 * 10^18
hmm, this is me attempting to make myself do taxes. Eventually I'll get around to finding my paperwork.
does Java still use swing or does ituse something else now?
hmm Java question
I found pens, this is a start
I paid a bill!
03:29
I paid all my bills!
congratulations
04:23
holy fucktitties, I never realized how much work adding frustrum culling into my renderer would be :P
 
1 hour later…
05:49
3
Q: How to introduce a computer illiterate 50-year old to programming

sundayThe other day my dad asked me a question that I would have never expected from him. "How can I learn C++?" My dad is turning 56 this year and computers are a distant concept for him. He doesn't know how to use a phone very well besides calling numbers (no speed dial or contacts); though he has ...

^ This question does not belong on any of the Stack Exchange sites, according to the police.
06:44
Closed as off topic?
Anyway, I wouldn't recommend C++ as a first language for him :p
07:24
@MooingDuck C++ has null only when you're handling pointers. Most other mainstream languages have null everwhere.
well, most other languages have null only when you're handling references :)
they just use references a lot :)
Which is everywhere.
Ruby has "nil" which is an object.
A worthless one.
You can't do anything but compare it to other objects.
@Xeo Hey, me too (this message, in fact: chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/3023959#3023959)
07:54
@ScottW wakeup Australia!
@RMartinhoFernandes morning
going into the office
08:08
Hello all :) can someone take a look at this ? stackoverflow.com/questions/9818461/…
@angryInsomniac why don't you simply use the random generators from C++11 or if those aren't available boost? they're far superior to rand/srand
@KillianDS I tried using boost , but it didn't work very well ( I didnt dedicate a lot of time to it though , might look into that again )
@RMartinhoFernandes I can give you the svn repo link for my project and you can see it happen !
@angryInsomniac well, they do work very well. :)
but it takes a bit of effort to figure out which classes to use and how
6
A: C++ equivalent of new Random(seed) in C#

R. Martinho FernandesC++11 has much more powerful random-number generation facilities. Here's an example: #include <random> #include <functional> typedef std::mt19937 rng_type; // a Mersenne twister engine std::uniform_int_distribution<rng_type::result_type> udist(0, 200); rng_type rng; int main...

08:18
@RMartinhoFernandes even if its not the same number , the numbers that are generated are pretty close !
It's not that complicated.
@jalf possibly , I was up all night when I looked at that :)
@RMartinhoFernandes true, it isn't. But if you're new to it, you still have to poke through a lot of classes and templates to find the right one
Ok , one more thing , suppose there are multiple objects being created in a loop , so one call to srand(time(NULL)) and create one object with a lot of calls to rand() , then for the next object again the same thing , but every object seems to have the same attributes !
@angryInsomniac that's because you call srand every time
08:20
I guess time(NULL) doesnt update fast enough between loop iterations
and you seed it with the current time, which has a one-second resolution
You don't want to call srand more than once.
You could find a better timer to seed with, but the only correct answer is don't call srand again
@RMartinhoFernandes hmm , ok , I'll try that !
@sbi I am going to take that as a compliment
Morning all :D
08:30
@jalf compared to learning the right arithmetic to get integers in an interval with rand I'd say finding the right class is easier.
@KillianDS absolutely :)
but compared to simply calling rand(), the learning curve is a bit steeper
I'm not saying it shouldn't be used, it's a really nice API
just that if you know nothing about it, you might have to take a peek at the docs before you can use it
Oh noes, the docs!
@jalf I agree, but how many times do you just need rand :)?
08:47
@KillianDS hopefully never :)
rand sucks. It doesn't work at compile-time.
@RMartinhoFernandes well that's kind of like saying hot water sucks because it is not frozen
why not just use the new <random> facilities?
True rand is a primitive tool, but it does the job
@thecoshman And that's true. You can't use hot water for a whiskey on the rocks.
08:51
@RMartinhoFernandes well... you could... but it would be hard to drink whiskey on the high pressure hot rocks
Though I wonder now, would the sudden decompression of the ice result in you not getting hot burns, perhaps even cold burns
I probably shouldn't attempt DIY hot ice
What are you talking about?
high pressure will solidify water. If you can keep the pressure high enough, you can then heat this 'ice' to above what would be boiling point at normal atmospheric pressure. Thus, you could, in theory, have 100 degree C ice
Then I got wondering what happens if it gets suddenly decompressed...
@thecoshman explosion
it would rapidly expand to a gas, but at the same time get very cold
@thecoshman You do know that water is not very compressible, right?
08:59
@KillianDS 'explosive decompression' is not, technically, an explosion
True it is not... but in a world where we are trying to get 100C ice, I think we can allow for a way to actually compress said water
@thecoshman the problem is that it doesn't. I don't know of an implementation which provides a rand that actually gives you anything near a uniform distribution
some bits are much more likely to be set than others
@thecoshman what is an explosion then technically? Many 'explosives' come down to just that.
@jalf all numbers are random, just some are created more random then others
You need >2GPa for 100ºC solid water.
@RMartinhoFernandes The compression doesn't matter, it's the pressure
09:01
@KillianDS no, look at something like gunpowder, that can explode becuase if you confine it, you can trigger a reaction that builds pressure causing it rupture it's containment vessel
Ice VII is a cubic crystalline form of ice. It has a triple point with liquid water and Ice VI at 355 K and 2.216 GPa, with the melt line extending to at least 715 K and 10 GPa. It can also be reached in the solid state by increasing the pressure on ice VI at ambient temperature. Like the majority of ice phases (including ice Ih), the hydrogen atom positions are disordered. In addition, the oxygen atoms are disordered over multiple sites. The structure of ice VII comprises a hydrogen bond framework in the form of two interpenetrating (but non-bonded) sub-lattices. Ice VII is the only dis...
@RMartinhoFernandes so, in theory, possible
There, it has a cool sci-fi sounding name.
well, looks like work isn't starting yet for me :P
@thecoshman And what is usually the original cause? The substance suddenly increasing in volume.
09:04
Hm, 2GPa is about 20 athmospheres. Not that much.
@thecoshman but a good random generator is one which doesn't favor some numbers over others. rand is typically horrible at that. Some implementations are much more likely to return small numbers than large ones. Others tend to prefer certain bit patterns in the lower bits
@KillianDS take a water heater, that can be rigged to do what many would call an explosion, but there is no chemical reaction causing it, so it is not a true explosion
"Explosion" usually involves large releases of energy, not just increase in volume.
@thecoshman why should an explosion have be triggered by a 'chemical' reaction. I really think you're making that definition of explosion up at the spot.
@jalf Sure randdoes not give a a 'good' random set of numbers, but for things like particle emitters in a game, it works just g`rand`
I could have got this horribly wrong, but I am sure that an explosion has be a chemical reaction to be a true explosion, let me look for something to back my claims :D
09:10
@thecoshman A nuclear explosion is not a chemical reaction.
Or maybe it is.
I don't know.
@RMartinhoFernandes That was going to be my example also
@thecoshman mmmmyeah, most of the time, if you're careful with what you do with the result (hint, don't use % to scale it down to the range you need)
But the problem is, where do you draw the line with what is a chemical reaction and what isn't
@RMartinhoFernandes erm... fairly sure a nuclear reaction is a chemical one :P
Though I think I see why you are saying it might not be
point is, you have a better generator available which is faster, provides better results, and uses a local seed so it behaves far better in multithreaded scenarios, or if you have want more than one random generator
09:12
@jalf yeah, I'll stop playing devils advocate now :P
Ha! Mount St. Helens!
Not a chemical explosion, and don't dare call it "not an explosion".
Well, if we take the wiki page for explosion it states that is an increase in volume with a release of energy. Now, I don't know if that would mean just the release of chemical energy, such as with C4 or if it would include the potential energy that you generate when pressurising a canister
That is still energy.
Though the page does heavily hint towards the need for a reaction, which decompression is not
(Not much because it's mostly just kinetic, but it still counts)
@thecoshman The page also lists the exact example of a boiler.
An explosion is a rapid increase in volume and release of energy in an extreme manner, usually with the generation of high temperatures and the release of gases. An explosion creates a shock wave. If the shock wave is a supersonic detonation, then the source of the blast is called a "high explosive". Subsonic shock waves are created by low explosives through the slower burning process known as deflagration. Causes Natural Explosions can occur in nature. Most natural explosions arise from volcanic processes of various sorts. Explosive volcanic eruptions occur when magma rising f...
09:19
well, it says something like a pressure vessel is a 'mechanical explosion'
I guess I got confused by the sub-categorising of them
Still, at least we all learnt something :D
Why did you have to mention wikipedia? Now I'm stuck reading about Krakatoa. Again.
> A number of toads in Germany and Denmark exploded in April 2005
yeah, I might be side tracked as well
I love it when people ask a question and fuck of so you can't get any clarification
@thecoshman April fools?
09:31
The explosion of animals is an uncommon event arising through natural causes or human activity. Among the best known examples are the post-mortem explosion of whales, either as a result of natural decomposition or deliberate attempts at carcass disposal. Other instances of exploding animals are defensive in nature or the result of human intervention. Causes of explosions Natural explosions can occur for a variety of reasons. Post-mortem explosions, like that of a beached whale, are the result of the build-up of natural gases created by methane-producing bacteria inside the carcass during ...
make of it what you will
> Among the best known examples are the post-mortem explosion of whales
lol
> The defensive behaviors of Camponotus saundersi, a species of carpenter ant, include self-destruction by autothysis. Two oversized, poison-filled mandibular glands run the entire length of the ant's body. When combat takes a turn for the worse, the ant violently contracts its abdominal muscles to rupture its body and spray poison in all directions. Another instance of autothysis is that of the termite Globitermes sulphureus.
your welcome :D
@Xeo awesome
4
Q: Conversion operator implemented with static_cast

MassimilianoI ask this question following the issue I raised here. The point is quite simple. Suppose you have two classes of this kind: template < class Derived > class Base { ... operator const Derived&() const { return static_cast< const Derived& >(*this); } ... }; class Speci...

09:45
I wonder if books and movies that start with the letter A sell better than the rest because they appear on top of alphabetically ordered lists.
@user1123950 depends on the step size and where you start ;)
@StackedCrooked Like Avatar?
@FredOverflow thanks man... I didn't need to see that level of stupid in the morning
@StackedCrooked Bjarne Stroustrup is from Aarhus. So that's why C++ is so popular!
@FredOverflow well, using this logic, surly Ada would be popular
09:48
Ada is still being used in the military.
Let's make a language named Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.
@FredOverflow Except that in Danish, Aa should be lexicographically sorted as the last letter in the alphabet. :)
@RMartinhoFernandes wouldn't 'A' come first?
(Yes, I know simply "A" would come first)
@thecoshman Not as funny.
@RMartinhoFernandes We should make a language called __aaaaAAAAA then
09:49
@jalf Are you joking?
2
Surely, the best name would be "TheBestProgrammingLanguage"
Since the underscore is lexically sorted first
Where is the logic here? perseverance => persevered; type inference => inferred type
@StackedCrooked: English isn't exactly what you call a logical language
lol, trying to find logic in English.
09:50
@RMartinhoFernandes nope
@jalf $ is one of the first visible ASCII characters. Let's name our language $$$ then. It will also attract the money-oriented programmers.
@StackedCrooked well, if you compared them equally, you would have 'type perseverance => persevered type'
@FredOverflow You want to attract the money-oriented programmers?
@FredOverflow: jQuery might as well call Javascript $$$
so it actually makes sense
09:51
I remember renting the movie "After Hours" because it appeared in the beginning in a book of movie reviews.
@RMartinhoFernandes COBOL programmers?
@RMartinhoFernandes Yes, to free them from their sins!
some 50 years ago we introduced Å to replace AA, but AA is still used in some places, and is treated lexicographically like an Å. Which is the last letter in the alphabet :)
@jalf I'm trying really hard to think of an English word that has a double a in it
09:52
@thecoshman aardvark.
If @Tony designed a language, it would probably be called XXX.
in Dutch we have a the "aa" quite a lot
also "oo"
@RMartinhoFernandes nah, that's just a typo, it should be 'an ardvark'
@thecoshman Nope.
Are you trying to teach me English?
@FredOverflow euh, donno
09:53
The aardvark (Orycteropus afer, from Greek ορυκτερόπους (orykterópous) meaning "digging footed" and : from Africa) is a medium-sized, burrowing, nocturnal mammal native to Africa. although other prehistoric species and genera of Tubulidentata are known. Naming and taxonomy It is sometimes colloquially called "antbear", "anteater", or the "Cape anteater" after the Cape of Good Hope. The name comes from earlier Afrikaans, and means "earth pig" or "ground pig" (aarde earth/ground, varken pig), because of its burrowing habits (similar origin to the name groundhog). The aardvark is not close...
I was joking :P
And @RMartinhoFernandes language would probably be called ((.).(.))
lulz
boob
@thecoshman well, that's the other thing. Danish is really big on compound words (you can pretty much create arbitrariy length words just by combining existing words), so it's perfectly possible to have two consecutive A's which aren't a double-a :D
@jalf just like in German then
09:54
yep
not in Dutch
sbi
sbi
> The name comes from earlier Afrikaans, and means "earth pig" or "ground pig" (aarde earth/ground, varken pig)... Wikipedia
@RMartinhoFernandes ^
yep
that's what it means
though curiously, a lot of English have effectively eaten the preceding 'a'. and we now have to precede them with 'an'
sbi
sbi
@TonyTheLion What I was trying to say is that this is not an English word.
09:56
@TonyTheLion Yeah, we split two consecutive 'a' with a dash. E.g. "na-apen".
@sbi well good, you're correct
@jalf Donaudampfschifffahrtselektrizitätenhauptbetriebswerkbauunterbeamtengesellschaft is probably the longest German word that was actually in use.
@sbi not many English words are English :P
@FredOverflow meaning?
@StackedCrooked yea in that case, but "maar", etc are not split
sbi
sbi
09:56
> Afrikaans is a West Germanic language... It originates from 17th century Dutch dialects of the mainly Dutch settlers, that further developed in South Africa — Wikipedia
@jalf something boring about ships, electricity and work and stuff.
English are just literary thieves
@TonyTheLion Just found this. Apperently it's called "klinkerbotsing".
I like siebenhundertsiebenundsiebzigtausendsiebenhundertsiebenundsiebzig.
09:57
@FredOverflow if it literately meant that, would be the strangest word ever
google turns up speciallægepraksisplanlægningsstabiliseringsperiode as the longest danish word in actual usage
@RMartinhoFernandes lol
so not quite as god as the german one
@RMartinhoFernandes which means...
sbi
sbi
@thecoshman We can haggle over what English actually means, but in the most common form I think it encompasses Anglo-Saxon, Latin, (Norman) French, and some Gaelic. Dutch is, commonly, not seen as a root of English, but rather as a sibling.
09:58
@jalf which means...
@thecoshman 777777.
@jalf god has nothing to do with this
Aaron.
Afrikaans.
bazaar.
sbi
sbi
@FredOverflow Where was that ever in use, other then in longest-word competitions?
09:59
does anyone here know how to use RGB values to generate lighter versions of the same colors ?
@RMartinhoFernandes can't you just keep taking on numbers?
@RMartinhoFernandes I loose
@angryInsomniac increase them...

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