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2:11 AM
(* &((const T*)this) for this.
Also, I made one TU compile with no errors!
 
@CatPlusPlus gratz?
 
@CatPlusPlus int main(){}?
 
No, it has code and stuff.
 
0
Q: C++ cast vector type in place

PolymorpherIs it possible to do this without creating new data structure? Suppose we have struct Span{ int from; int to; } vector<Span> s; We want to get an integer vector from s directly, by casting vector<Span> s; to vector<int> s; so we could remove/change some "from", ...

Sanity check. This is nonsense, right?
 
agreed
even ignoring the "casting" part of it, he can't get a vector back without some computation since vector<Span> is storing it "row-wise" whereas vector<int> (either from vector or to vector) is "column-wise", if he wants it for free
 
2:24 AM
I have no idea what he wants.
 
he wants to get vector<int> (vector of from or vector of to) for cheap
but he's wording it badly
 
Oh, that might make sense.
But then, what does he intend to remove afterwards?
Half of some objects?
 
that part I don't understand
wait, I think I know what he means
he wants to yank out a vector<int> (vector of from or vector of to), chop out a bunch of them, and them put them back into a new vector<Span>
sounds like a job for functional programming
 
Like start with { {1,2}, {3,4}, {5,6} }, get { 1, 3, 5 } and/or { 2, 4, 6 } and then what?
Remove 3 and 4? That can be done on the original without shenanigans.
 
and then he wants to remove the 2nd element, to get { 1, 5 } { 2, 6 } and then he wants to put it back
 
2:28 AM
Remove 3 and 6? That sounds meaningless.
Remove only 3? That's even less meaningful.
 
yeah, it's convoluted
 
@kfmfe04 Well, if that's it, the answer is really simple.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes unfortunately, only the OP knows what he means (and sometimes, not even that!)
@RMartinhoFernandes you're right - OP needs to post an example
 
I think he wants to do like Enumerable.Select in LINQ.
But select what, that is the question.
Ok, scratch that
 
2:31 AM
I just reread it and it does not make any sense.
 
0
Q: C++ initialize all values of a member array for a class

user1139252In C++ how initialize all values of a member array for a class? #define MAX_MATRIX 20 Class Matrix { public: Matrix(); //constructor protected: int n[MAX_MATRIX]; // note cannot do = { 0} or w/e here }; Matrix::Matrix() { // how to set all n to -1? }

Matrices again!
 
> so we could remove/change some "from", "to" elements
THE. FUCK.
 
Though it's very poor matrix.
Poortrix.
 
Trix are for kids.
 
@CatPlusPlus And he wants to initialize the values to minus one.
 
2:32 AM
@CatPlusPlus I find it odd, too, that there are so many questions about matrices. Besides linear algebra, I just reduce all of them down to a one dimensional array/vector
 
Well, I'm happy that I'm not alone in this hatred of multidimensional array questions.
 
that #define up top also makes me cringe
 
Great, someone repeated the question that makes no sense to me in a comment. It still doesn't make sense.
 
what's the proper terminology for using a template parameter to select an internal implementation (eg foo( const T& dummy, ... ) implemented with specific types for T?) - first time I saw this, it looked really weird to me, but now, I'm finding it to be a really nifty - is this what is meant by static polymorphism?
 
Sounds like tag dispatching.
 
2:41 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes excellent - tyvm!
@RMartinhoFernandes so tag dispatching is a form of static polymorphism?
 
Overloading in general is.
 
ic
makes sense
 
Tag dispatching is a mechanism to overload on properties of types.
 
btw, overloading in C++ only uses the signature (parameters) to resolve the call
I always wondered whether there are languages that also use the return-type as a part of the dispatch/selection criteria - such a language couldn't have automatic type conversions, if it exists, I would think...
 
Ada is such a language. At least regarding overloading on return type.
 
2:44 AM
In C++ that would make things a bit complicated, I think.
Haskell has that too.
 
Come to think of it, it's true that all type conversions must be explicit. But that's the extent of my knowledge of Ada.
 
8^P - yet another reason to learn Haskell!
@LucDanton that's interesting - I've only come across Ada via Gnat - sounds like it may be interesting to play around with, for ideas
 
Stupid Question: is UML an actual "language" or is it just a set of standard graphical representations of common OOP constructs?
 
2:59 AM
Both?
It's a formal symbolic system for communication that uses graphical representations of common OOP constructs.
 
Ok, it does make sense. I kinda failed to understand why there's a L in UML, but one might as well replace the thing with "alphabet/visual representations" and it's the same thing again.
 
Isn't sign language a language?
It doesn't need to have a textual or spoken form to be a language.
 
I know, you're right; my brain just blocked for uml... but now it's fixed :)
 
Fun fact: UML is developed by OMG.
 
3:15 AM
lol
Someone provided the answer I was afraid of :(
1
A: C++ cast vector type in place

SteveThis is not really a good idea, but I'll show you how. You can get a raw pointer to the integer this way: int * myPointer2 = (int*)&(s[0]); but this is really bad practice because you can't guarantee that the span structure doesn't have any padding, so while it might work fine for me and ...

It even earned two upvotes.
 
4:04 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes UML was invented to make a new market for bureaucrats
 
user406009
4:16 AM
OOP is overrated anyways.
 
user406009
All you ever need is composition 99%
 
I'm being chased by people wielding stupid pointless casts for the sake of "efficiency".
 
user406009
Tell them to go code in assembly.
 
could somebody please explain the meaning of `T(&arr)[N]` in
template <typename T, std::size_t N>
T* begin(T(&arr)[N]) { return &arr[0]; }
 
It's a reference to an array.
 
4:28 AM
how would it be like if it wasn't a template function?
 
int(&arr)[10], for example.
 
so, this is the way we pass an array by reference?
 
Yes.
It prevents the array from decaying into a pointer and thus losing its size information (important for the end function).
 
wow! great
do we need to explicitly declare the size of array too?
 
What do you mean?
 
4:30 AM
I mean something like void foo(int(&arr)[]){}
 
I don't think so. int x[] in parameters is exactly the same as int* x.
 
Arrays always need size.
 
So, even if that is allowed, it would be a reference to a pointer.
 
Should emplacing allocators use brace initializers? I.e., should the following be allowed:
  struct Foo { int n; int m; };
  std::vector<Foo> v;
  v.emplace_back(1,2);
 
is int(&arr)[10] a reference to a pointer too?
 
4:32 AM
No.
It's a reference to an array of 10 ints. It's an important distinction.
 
I.e. the construct() function should say something like ::new (addr) T{std::forward<Args>(args)...};
 
@KerrekSB The default allocator doesn't do that.
It calls a regular constructor.
 
The brace initializer does call a regular constructor if there is one
So that would be a valid implementation
But the braces have the advantage of also allowing arrays and ILs
 
Sorry, the standard allocator uses the regular constructor syntax.
 
That's a bad, bad standard allocator ;-)
 
4:36 AM
I suppose that since it does that an allocator isn't required to support brace initialization.
 
So I could fix this by providing my own KAllocator class?
 
Yes. I want to be able to emplace aggregates.
 
std::vector<std::vector<int>> v;
v.emplace_back(1);
@KerrekSB Fix for your particular case, yes.
 
But Foo in my example is an aggregate.
 
4:37 AM
But I don't think there's a general solution to this.
 
And switching to braces would be uniformly more powerful than the current version.
 
The problem is with initializer_list ctors.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes What's the problem?
 
1 min ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
std::vector<std::vector<int>> v;
v.emplace_back(1);
 
I don't follow. That's already OK as it is.
 
4:39 AM
std::vector<int> { 1 } and std::vector<int>(1) are not the same.
 
Oh, I see.
 
Your allocator doesn't let you construct the second form.
 
If the class permits both an IL constructor and other constructors, then the brace syntax always picks the IL...
 
Shame
v.emplace_brace() :-)
Or stateful allocators: v.get_allocator().assume_brace_position();
 
4:43 AM
Can that be made to work?
 
Your allocator's construct() function could have a conditional check... why not?
if (brace) ::new (addr) T{args...}; else ::new (addr) T(args...);
 
T = std::vector<X> and args... = 1, 2, 3, 4.
The else branch won't compile.
Dead code still has to compile.
Especially if that code is only "dead" at runtime.
 
my exam starts in four hours
 
I think it can be done with some template machinery, but boy, it's ugly.
 
Then you can use args... = {1,2,3,4}, though!
@DeadMG Good luck!
 
4:48 AM
hah
 
Are you up early to go for a run, clear your mind and have an early breakfast?
 
I spent the past seven hours re-iterating exactly how much I hate my university and how I'd find it much more pleasing to raze it to the ground
nah
didn't go to sleep
my conscience is too strong to let me just sleep when I should be revising, but it's not strong enough to make me actually revise instead of just watch Stargate
which is really the worst of both worlds
 
@Kerrek if (brace) brace_construct(is_brace_constructible<T, Args...>(), args...); else non_brace_construct(is_non_brace_constructible<T, Args...>(), args...); and the two functions have overloads for false_type and true_type that either throw/assert/whatever floats your boat or construct.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Do those traits exist?
 
No :(
I think is_non_brace_constructible is is_constructible, but the other one doesn't exist.
 
4:52 AM
Hm, maybe they can be synthesized from is_constructible...
 
You need to make one of those SFINAE things with the static test functions and such.
 
OK, I just discovered that I actually don't care that much.
Thanks, though :-)
 
Wait, isn't is_brace_constructible the same as either is_constructible<T, Head, Tail...> or is_same<Head, Tail...>::value and is_constructible<T, std::initializer_list<Head>>::value?
 
No. Think aggregates.
 
4:57 AM
Errgh, d'oh.
OK, enough with this
 
yeah, those Integral Constant Expressions are nast-ay
 
Oh, wait, I think GCC 4.5 doesn't support list initialization.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes fwiw, 4.6.1 output

sandbox.cpp: In instantiation of ‘is_list_initializable<std::vector<int>, int, double>’:
sandbox.cpp:29:1: instantiated from here
sandbox.cpp:19:10: error: narrowing conversion of ‘std::declval [with _Tp = double, typename std::add_rvalue_reference<_Tp>::type = double&&]()’ from ‘double’ to ‘int’ inside { } [-fpermissive]
sandbox.cpp:19:10: error: narrowing conversion of ‘std::declval [with _Tp = double, typename std::add_rvalue_reference<_Tp>::type = double&&]()’ from ‘double’ to ‘int’ inside { } [-fpermissive]
 
Dammit, should narrowing conversions bork SFINAE?
 
Narrowing conversions bork everything.
 
5:16 AM
I shall test with clang. Since that will require a reboot, see you after the break.
 
would I be able to pass istream to a function?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Interesting.
 
 
1 hour later…
6:41 AM
ah man
my brain dies just trying to read this endless crap
I mean, do they really need pages and pages of bullshit to say "Some agents have state"?
 
@DeadMG like obfuscation, eh? gl on your exam
 
I actually measured
it was 40 slides
seriously
 
Did they get rid of flag weight?
 
for "Some agents have state"?
christ
@KerrekSB You're right. I don't seem to have a "flag weight" anymore
only a total number of helpful flags
ok
and what the fuck is with the random symbols?
Ψ
what on earth is that?
 
@DeadMG It's a trident. Maybe it's Wimbli's Trident.
 
6:55 AM
well, I'm kind of sick of this
 
@DeadMG shudder, reminds me of the Wave Function in modern physics - nasty math
 
oh, that reminds me, I totally forgot to email that recruiter guy you forwarded me to to say that I would be revising for my exams and not mail him back for a while
@kfmfe04 I'm not afraid of math, I'm afraid of their totally useless garbage language they invented for no useful purpose
 
@DeadMG What's the language?
 
that one with all the shitty squiggles
 
@DeadMG Lisp? Logo?
 
6:57 AM
no, the formal mathematical one
the one where they use random Greek letters instead of three-letter Latin names, like "sum"
 
@DeadMG There's no such language.
Just some conventional notation.
 
then what the fuck is that?
hell, the writing's getting so small with their subscript orgasm that I can't read it on my screen
 
Read it from right-to-left:
 
An option on Silver future contracts? LoL
 
there's some term, which is summed over, the result of which you take the maximum of over some other range, and then take the argument of that.
Think of it as std::bind
 
7:00 AM
not helpful, because I think bind is dumb
lambdas way better
except the non-polymorphic thing, of course
 
@KerrekSB btw, what is an argument operator? a mathematical argument's not the same as a programming language's argument, is it?
 
@KerrekSB So why not just argument(max(sum(step, condition, expression), range))
much clearer
 
@DeadMG Try writing that on paper a few times!
@kfmfe04 It extracts the angle of a complex number
 
what do I care about that? buy a laptop
that symbolic crap isn't going to be easier either
 
@kfmfe04 so arg(r * exp(i*a)) == a
 
7:03 AM
interesting - thx
 
@DeadMG I doubt this is going to be a fruitful conversation.
 
yeah
how dare I suggest that a place of higher education, teaching a course about computer science, use technology to make everyone's lives easier?
that's just ridiculous
 
@kfmfe04 It comes up in the principle of the argument, for instance
 
don't know where I get these silly ideas from
 
@DeadMG Maybe think about people who actually work in maths and physics.
 
7:05 AM
@KerrekSB my brain is numb - I haven't seen zeros and poles since my EE days an aeon ago
 
what, they don't have laptops?
 
Do you think they're all idiots who wouldn't find the best and most efficient way of doing their work?
@DeadMG Maybe laptops aren't actually relevant to the way they do their work.
 
actually, as far as I can tell, the current ways exist for historical reasons that no longer apply
 
At least the "heavy lifting" part of the work
@DeadMG Yes. As far as you can tell, no doubt.
 
why else would you divine a bunch of arcane symbols which don't even fit on a line instead of re-using a perfectly good flexible notation we already have which is much less ambiguous and easier to read in virtually every situation?
 
7:08 AM
@DeadMG That's like asking why you would need templates, but you've never done any C++.
 
I have some inept lecturer trying to teach it to me
 
Concise notation is a crucial tool for organizing mathematical thought
You would drown in a sea of noise otherwise
Seriously, do you really believe that people who can do quantum field theory are too stupid to find an efficient way of working?
I think that's putting the "youthful" back into "youthful arrogance"
2
 
no, I believe that they just didn't check back in the previous decade or decided it wasn't worth the effort
there's nothing more concise about the Greek sigma compared to, say, "sum"
and there are a whole bunch of functions like max, sin, etc which are just written as Latin names
 
Are you even aware of the fact that mathematical notation is changing and evolving, just like everything else?
 
I only have the samples presented to me by inept lecturer #666
 
7:12 AM
@DeadMG Of course there is. I seriously doubt you've ever worked with any reasonably involved mathematical construction, or you wouldn't be making such claims
 
well, it's funny, cause I'm thinking about how much space they take up on my screen, and sigma might save like, two pixels of space
compared to having a description of what it actually does
 
You have to get over the fact that undergraduate students are not the centre of the universe
 
would you write a program where all the functions were called "DoShit"?
 
And people don't necessarily go out of the way to adjust the world to them.
Maths notation works for those cases where it actually matters.
The fact that you find it inconvenient is hardly relevant.
 
I don't expect people to adjust the world for me
 
7:14 AM
The disconnect is that you seem to believe that the maths you see in your studies is relevant, important, or representative of anything.
 
I expect lecturers to adjust their course content for me
@KerrekSB Actually, the crux of the problem that I have is that I don't believe that at all. Which is why I feel that my course, and the exams and such, are a giant waste of everybody's time.
 
@DeadMG Content, yes. Notation, no.
@DeadMG Well, it really depends.
 
When I download a PDF of the notes, then every single pixel is content.
 
If the aim of the course is to prepare you to become a productive researcher, then you should be taught the right tools.
If the aim is merely to make you a sellable consumptive person-with-degree, then... well, sure, then that's different
 
tools for use in research should be taught at, maybe, research level degrees
not random Bachelors
 
7:18 AM
@DeadMG It's just a major hassle to develop an entire second set of tools and language, just for the use of consumers. Who should translate all the extant knowledge for that purpose?
And mind you, tons of "applied" literature already exists
 
I'll bet you a large sum of money that a trivial program could be written which would do it
 
But there are limits to how much you need to dumb things down
 
hell, that's what something like LaTeX already does
 
By keeping the notation, at least proper mathematicians can read and check applied literature
 
it would hardly be the first thing where the optimum way to use it is not the optimal way to teach it
 
7:20 AM
Anyway, even on a purely consumptive level I stand by my claim that the present notation does a good job. You don't necessarily want a huge noise-to-signal ratio when expressing complex concepts.
 
the adder in my CPU doesn't use the trivial algorithms taught to seven-year-olds to add two three-digit numbers together, but that doesn't mean we should teach them those algorithms
no, see, that's the problem
the notation is just noise
just some other thing you have to translate to make sense of what someone else is trying to say
 
But &Sigma; is far less noisy than "sum", especially if you're calculating on paper and have to write it a few times
@DeadMG No. You don't "translate". Anyone who spends any amount of time on this eventually "sees through" the sum directly
 
great, thank you very much
 
There's an entry barrier, yes, but it's like the entry barrier to Emacs
 
I will now dedicate years of my life to research so that I can see through the notation to the actual meaning
 
7:22 AM
And you want everything to be like Word: Immediately obvious, never improvable.
@DeadMG That's not what I said.
 
that's basically exactly what you said.
look
 
I say that after using sums a couple of times, you will immediately "feel" a big sigma as a sum of terms, just like you would when you see a1 + a2 + ....
 
the notation is just like code, it's written once and read a thousand times, if not more
it should be optimized for the reader, not the writer
@KerrekSB Maybe if you just replaced "sum" with "sigma", it wouldn't be so bad
it's all the sub and superscripting
the text gets so tiny you can't read it for shit, and it gets all over the other lines so you can't space them properly in advance if you're not totally sure what goes there
 
You seem to be asking for some very specific, niche situation where you would only ever read something, and never write anything yourself. I cannot believe you've done any serious amount of productive maths work if you are asking for something verbose like that.
 
of course I haven't, and I likely never will, it's an undergraduate degree
 
7:26 AM
@DeadMG You're reaffirming my belief that you've never had to work with this in earnest.
Right
Well, for reading, I can't disagree...
but I suppose nobody bothers to create a specifically "simplified" notation
 
create? functional works just fine
 
... that has no other use other than being understood by people who won't write any maths and who want slightly less notational overhead.
You could try and market it if you think it is useful
 
@KerrekSB So... virtually everybody except researchers
 
But then again, there are so many other conventions and definitions that you have to be aware of anyway that this is perhaps only a small matter
 
Really, of all sucky things in math notation you have a problem with Σ?
 
7:28 AM
but more importantly, the target audience in question
@CatPlusPlus It's just an example.
 
@DeadMG No... there are many other people who use maths without actually being researchers.
 
@KerrekSB Use != write
like templates, many people use templates, and not many people write them
 
@DeadMG I mean "write" as in "perform calculations on paper", not as in "write papers"
Imagine you had to write pow(a,b) instead of the familiar a^b
 
why would you ever want to perform a calculation on paper?
can you say "I forgot to carry the one"?
@KerrekSB Well, it'd certainly be a lot simpler when you start looking at a * b + c, because functional notation doesn't require disambiguating precedences.
 
@DeadMG Neither does RPN -- but while that works nicely for calculators, reading it mostly sucks.
 
7:32 AM
eh
functional notation is pretty much required anyway
unlike RPN
anyway, I'm talking about target audience here, a bunch of undergraduate students
if you're a lecturer, then you should optimize your course to be consumed by the students to whom it will be taught
I mean, that's kind of in the requirements for creating a course, that it gets taken by students
so it seems silly to me that you would go ahead and create such a course, and then write half of it, or more, in a notation that's not optimal for the target audience
 
I've long suspected that some mathematical notation really is designed specifically to look as foreign as possible to outsiders. Without a mystical notation, too many people would realize that most of math is really fairly simple.
 
@JerryCoffin Hahaha :-) Good luck!
Why not take a shot at one of them Clay problems?
Add to the steady flow of weekly proofs of the Riemann hypothesis...
 
I didn't say all -- just most. Yes, there are some really difficult problems to be found, but look at how many math professors really contribute anything significant to any of them either. If you're lucky, you get a couple of significant proofs per generation.
 
@JerryCoffin By "most" do you mean "most of the maths I know"?
 
@KerrekSB I mean most of the math that gets published.
 
7:44 AM
Hm, I really don't know what to add to that. But it's bedtime now!
 
I really need to talk to someone
 
hi what is going on here?
 
I've got an exam for which I have to leave in 45minutes and it's just not going to work at all
 
@DeadMG hi what is going on here? means discussion for what?
hello
 
8:15 AM
well, I'm off to the gallows
wish me luck
 
It's a funny combination of expressions.
 
hello guys.............
 
 
2 hours later…
sbi
9:52 AM
Ok, so for the three or four of you guys who haven't seen it yet: This is a snoring dormouse.
 
1
Q: What are the features required for Object Orientation?

IntermediateHackerI am just wondering, what exactly are the features a language or a library must provide in order for it to be defined as 'Object Oriented'. Is Object Orientation something that can, more or less, be achieved in any general-purpose programming language with decent features? Or is it something that...

 
@sbi you really should get on reddit :P
 
sbi
@thecoshman Why would I want to do that? I'm here and on Twitter, and have no need for yet another time-stealing drug.
 
@sbi don't you?
 
sbi
@thecoshman You sound a bit like... Eliza? Is it you?
 
10:04 AM
@IntermediateHacker I was under the impression that there are OO languages as well as Object Based languages; OB languages are sort of a 'not quite there' OO language
@sbi ... noooo
 
sbi
@thecoshman I think they use objects for encapsulation, but not polymorphism or inheritance.
 
@sbi well, I'm just glad that I am not the only one who has heard of OB languages, I was starting to think I made them up :D
 
@thecoshman um.. what are OB Languages?
 
sbi
7 mins ago, by thecoshman
@IntermediateHacker I was under the impression that there are OO languages as well as Object Based languages; OB languages are sort of a 'not quite there' OO language
 
@IntermediateHacker what @sbi said :P
 
10:26 AM
hmmm
if you use std::find and std::find_if on a collection of custom objects, is it advised to overload operator== on this custom object?
 
@TonyTheLion based on the template description it appears so. Best case is if the compiler complains about missing function when inserting the template
 
@TonyTheLion if you were to use find_if you could always write your own little lambda function to check properties of a custom object
 
@TheRarebit I'm not using C++0x
 
but i suppose it depends on how often you do that find_if, don't wanna have to rewrite lambdas everywhere if you're using it over and over
 
using it quite a bit
 
10:32 AM
oh i see
then please disregard :)
 
I'll just overload the operator== then
 
sbi
@TonyTheLion So write a function object.
 
@sbi lol, I did already, oops forgot
but I only did for find_if
 
sbi
@TonyTheLion That sets the comparison in stone, however. If you use lambdas (or functors), you can pick among several comparison criteria.
 
sbi
10:36 AM
@TonyTheLion Yeah, you can't use them for std::find(). Basically, std::find() is a thin wrapper calling std::find_if() with a function object using operator== for comparison.
afk
 
ok I'm allocating memory for a C struct using malloc, is this even correct? dev_ = static_cast<struct usb_device*>(malloc(sizeof(struct usb_device)));
if I just do the malloc without cast, the compiler complains about not being able to convert implicitly from void* to usb_device*
 
looks about right from wot i can remember
do you need the explicit struct each time?
 
10:54 AM
never mind, don't need it anymore
 
11:12 AM
@TonyTheLion The cast is only required in C++, not in C.
 
fucking documentation first! so much for being agile (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
at least grooveshark is working well today :D
just as I say that, lag :(
 
@thecoshman I'm so agile I only write documents when not having them hurts ;)
 
11:27 AM
@awoodland I'm not against documenting the fucked up mess of code that people have done, explaining how the damn hell it works. I just don't like having to spend nearly a week emailing back and forth with my man in India to discus code that one of us could have just done in a hour
 
morning
 
only just bud :P
nearly lunch time :D
 
8
A: What will be considered harmful next?

Ross PattersonAspect Oriented Programming Guy Steele famously said ... the ability to define your own operator functions [in C++] means that a simple statement such as x = a + b; in an inner loop might involve the sending of e-mail to Afghanistan. Aspect Oriented Programming takes this to extremes, such...

What a stupid argument against operator overloading.
> the ability to define your own operator functions [in C++] means that a simple statement such as x = a + b; in an inner loop might involve the sending of e-mail to Afghanistan.
 
11:47 AM
Newsflash: programming considered harmful
4
 

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