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2:00 PM
He should be shot too :)
 
sbi
@Fanael Let's call it The Language That Must Not Be Named.
3
 
@sbi Do you work with Windows Forms or something..
 
I disagree.
 
user784668
@LewsTherin She can heal severing, but she cannot heal the effect of knowing C++.
 
@sbi Sounds good to me.
 
2:00 PM
We must not forget Java. Otherwise, we might repeat the errors of the past.
7
 
user784668
@sbi +1
 
sbi
@Fanael I don't see a star.
 
@Fanael She can also heal madness.. but mine's far too deep..
 
user784668
@LewsTherin That's way worse than madness.
 
sbi
@MrAnubis Don't do this. People have been outraged over this quite often, and it might well be the SO team might implement some measurement against it one day. Also, I could be accused of having sock-puppet account.
 
2:02 PM
I see non standard extensions in my sleep
3
 
@EtiennedeMartel lol.
 
@Fanael What could be worse than madness?
 
sbi
@EtiennedeMartel Those are nightmares, then, right?
 
Life is hard.
 
what about boost?
 
2:03 PM
@sbi you meant "Don't do this" ? , I'll never :)
 
user784668
@LewsTherin Programming.
 
@Fanael Programming in C/C++ xD
 
user784668
@LewsTherin What's C/C++?
 
@LewsTherin Erghh.
 
sbi
@LewsTherin I don't.
 
2:04 PM
WPF is the shit.
 
sbi
:2476523 I don't do GUIs. The others do, though.
 
@sbi So you make the gui's work?
 
@LewsTherin lol , read his last message
 
@Fanael Darkness to my Light.
 
sbi
@LewsTherin One of my grandmothers, while slowly sinking into dementia, had bright moments, when she realized what happened. That is worse than madness.
 
2:05 PM
@MrAnubis I'm asking if he implements the handlers and stuff
 
@sbi +100 rep.
 
@EtiennedeMartel "I see dead code."
 
@LewsTherin I don't think he does
 
@LewsTherin Considering @sbi's expertise in non-human primates, I think he is a handler.
 
@sbi Damn..
@Potatoswatter Lol!
 
sbi
2:07 PM
@IntermediateHacker ??
 
@LewsTherin you're using windows forms for GUI?
 
sbi
@LewsTherin I write the code underneath, preferably code that will be used in lots of places. I love to do foundations.
 
@MrAnubis That's what the book is using.. I don't like it.. but I have no choice because it has exercises at the end
@sbi That sounds a lot better.. although maybe more difficult than the gui part of it.
 
@LewsTherin which book?
 
@sbi Why work in C#? You know your C++
 
2:09 PM
wait a sec. there's an upvote limit???
 
@MrAnubis Wrox C# 3.0 Ed
 
You have reached your voting limit for today. You can vote again in 9 hours
 
sbi
@IntermediateHacker This is Jeff's playground. There's limits for everything.
 
user784668
@IntermediateHacker 40 votes, I guess.
 
@LewsTherin Never used C#, eh?
 
2:11 PM
@sbi anyway, your rep. should be at least 400 more on the next rep-calc.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I have a bit before.. with XNA. I'm learning it proper this time around.
 
spamming upvotes is fun.
 
@EtiennedeMartel It is a whole lot better, right?
 
Except you can't get more than 200 from upvotes in one day.
 
:)
 
2:11 PM
@LewsTherin Once you start using LINQ, it's hard to come back to the verbose world of C++.
 
user784668
@LewsTherin Only the strongest channelers can use C++ successfully. And even then, the likelihood of being killed in the process is still about 50%.
 
sbi
@LewsTherin When I applied for this job, I did it as a C++ expert. They checked on my skills, and asked me if it was Ok for me to learn C#, too. It was Ok for me to learn another language, so I said yes. Now I'm stuck in this pure-C# project. :-/
 
@sbi Oh, I'm sure it's not that bad.
 
sbi
@IntermediateHacker Sigh. I told you, there's and algorithm catching this, and removing it over night.
 
@EtiennedeMartel That sounds hard.. LINQ.. mmn
 
2:13 PM
@sbi but wasn't that only for downvotes?
 
Nope
 
sbi
Jan 1 at 14:52, by sbi
But, really, while C# is a neat little toy language, it feels like wielding a cute little girl where C++ feels like a fully-armed battle-hardened elite soldier. I miss the raw powers of C++ templates so badly.
Mar 29 '11 at 20:20, by sbi
But C# relates to C++ like a baby to a full-blown battle-hardened soldier. It just doesn't play in the same league.
 
@Fanael I'm a damn strong channeler.. but I succumbed to madness.. scary shit C++ is
 
sbi
24 mins ago, by sbi
Hey guys, serial voting will be undone by some algorithm over night. Please stop it.
 
@sbi You are a quick learner. Envy :D
 
sbi
2:14 PM
Note the neutral term.
 
Oh no, it's -5 outside.
 
...damn, I wasted my votes and time.
 
What's there to learn in C#, really?
 
@CatPlusPlus delegates.
 
user784668
@CatPlusPlus 19 degrees here.
 
2:15 PM
@CatPlusPlus gigantic libraries?
 
@IntermediateHacker And that's hard how?
You memorize libraries?
 
@sbi I don't know. I feel as if I can solve problems faster and with less code using C# than C++. For me, at least, C# is a better tool for most jobs while C++ is overkill for most applications. And don't get me wrong, templates are nice, but most of the time the heavy TMP stuff feel a lot like a solution looking for a problem.
 
user784668
@CatPlusPlus -5 is pretty darn cold.
 
@CatPlusPlus I was being sarcastic.
 
@CatPlusPlus no , it's impossible , you need lots of typing to remember them :)
 
sbi
2:16 PM
@LewsTherin Huh? Nope. C# is easy, really. When I had to start on this project, I paired with a fellow-worker for two days. After that, I muddled on by myself. The only books I read was O'Reilly's C# Pocket Reference and Bill Wagner's Effective C#.
 
+15 is pretty darn cold for me.
 
It's 23 degrees over here.
 
@CatPlusPlus Ou la la. You think -5 is cold? Try -30. With wind.
 
@sbi Reilly's or Oreilly?
 
-5 centigrade? That's cold for you Continentals?
 
2:17 PM
@EtiennedeMartel u live on the North Pole?
 
@IntermediateHacker Canada.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Fortunately we didn't have temperatures that low this winter.
 
@Gabe they are different I wonder?
 
@sbi Thanks for those books :D
 
sbi
@Gabe Better?
 
2:17 PM
Though they can get to -20 in extreme cases.
 
sbi
@LewsTherin I won't give them to you.
 
wait are we using Celcius or Fahrenheit?
 
Who uses Fahrenheit?
 
<
 
@CatPlusPlus americans?
 
2:18 PM
@CatPlusPlus Not memorizing them but knowing your way around.. I think
 
@CatPlusPlus The USA, and I've lived in a couple places there that got below -20 F. (That's -30 C.)
 
Americans use fahrenheit and other stupid ways of measuring things. In school we have to learn the American AND the European way.
 
'merica.
 
@sbi Aww, common! Will have to use TBP
 
user784668
@CatPlusPlus Oh wait, I just did.
 
2:18 PM
@EtiennedeMartel C++ is like the best language to write libraries in!
 
sbi
:2476728 We've had -15 to -20 in Germany, and Poland has a more continental climate.
 
user784668
@LucDanton And the worst language to write any other code in.
 
@LucDanton I think he meant writing normal apps.
 
all of these temperatures are so cold....
 
C# > C++ ha ha
 
2:19 PM
I won't be able to live even in a -1. I wonder how you guys survive with -20. o_O
 
@LewsTherin Lies...
 
@LucDanton C++ is an air strike while C# is an assault rifle. I don't need that much firepower. Plus, it's much easier to do collateral damage with the former.
 
@IntermediateHacker We had snow in Ireland.. and everyone thought they'd die lol.. No snow last year luckily
 
@IntermediateHacker Breathing. Eating. Sleaping. It all helps
 
user784668
@sbi Yeah, I thought it's in F-heits.
 
2:20 PM
@Gabe So not lies!
 
Why don
't we all use calvins ^_^
 
user784668
@sbi Few winters ago, we did have -20 C in Poland.
 
@IntermediateHacker human can survive easily anywhere on earth given the premises they know how to :)
 
@Gabe Kelvins?
 
sbi
@EtiennedeMartel There's a few things I like about C#, like the simple lambda syntax, and the expressiveness of LINQ. But it all comes down to runtime errors, and customers hate that. I once also wondered what TMP is good for, but then it crept into my code more and more, because it fails at compile-time, which is, by definition, not at the customers. When you're one of a dozen devs working on a software with several million installations, you tend to value that.
 
2:21 PM
Otherwise, please consider Luthers as well
 
@sehe oh yeah sorry I haven't been in physics/science class in a while. Its +273 to celsius right?
 
user784668
@sbi Also, in which land?
 
@Gabe yup, roughly (273.15)
 
sbi
@Fanael "We've had -15 to -20 in Germany..." "...and Poland has..."
 
@sbi Wnat's TMP... I thought there were exceptions for runtime errors.
 
2:22 PM
I hate midterms.
 
@Maxpm I hate finals.
 
@maxpm college? Highschool?
 
sbi
@LewsTherin Template meta-programming. Meta programs fail at compile-time.
 
@Gabe High school.
 
Highschool. only 3 months left for O' levels. and I don't know a thing.
 
2:22 PM
O levels?
 
@sbi Oops.. I know nothing of that.
 
the 80's called, they want there qualifications back
 
user784668
@sbi Yeah, which land? I think the winter was never that cold when I lived in RLP.
 
In my highschool they don't teach programming
 
> Cambridge O Level is an internationally recognised qualification equivalent to the UK General Certificate of Secondary Education (GCSE)
 
2:23 PM
in fact, noone knows programming. Its very sad.
 
afternoon
 
@Gabe They don't really teach programming in my programming class, either.
 
sbi
@Fanael Which land what? I have no idea what you're asking.
 
fucking Cambridge would insist on keeping with O levels, wouldn't they
 
is sizeof(DWORD) implementation defined?
 
2:24 PM
DWORD is a MS macro
 
@Gabe I had an idea of it.. but my classmates called me a boring shite because of their Hollywood knowledge of Comp Sci..
 
At least, nothing that I didn't know already, and nothing that makes my classmates "get it."
 
@Gabe They shouldn't teach programming, they should teach computer science.
 
@Maxpm at least your in a programming class...
 
I realize I'm being arrogant. I'm okay with this.
 
2:24 PM
@thecoshman yes its a macro, but that doesn't answer my question
 
And anyway, you're probably better off without a high-school level teacher.
 
@Potatoswatter there are computer science online classes that teach you java of all languages... and its really basic and slow
 
@TonyTheLion that's my point. How long is a piece of string?
 
sbi
@jjnguy I dunno, but it killed the cat.
 
2:25 PM
@Gabe That's me.
 
also, sizeof(DWORD)
 
after 1 1/2 semesters (its a year long course) AP computer science has finally introduced what a class is. -_-
 
AP computer science.
What a joke.
 
@TonyTheLion sizeof(DWORD) == 4, because of definition of x86 double word
 
@maxpm so true. I wonder who the hell made the course, and how stupid they think highschool kids are...
 
2:26 PM
@Gabe What's wrong with Java as a first language? If it's slow, then skip the lessons you don't want!
 
user784668
@sbi Oh darn, checking your profile was enough. I guess that -20 C in Berlin is not something surprising.
 
@Potatoswatter Java doesn't teach you anything about pointers/memory locations, which are pretty important in the programming world
 
sbi
@Abyx LPARAM, WPARAM
 
@Maxpm Fortunately you don't need to take any class to sit the AP computer science exam. I didn't, got a perfect score.
 
I'm not sure what's wrong with Java as a first language, but we could make a list about what's wrong with it as a language, period.
 
2:27 PM
@sbi what?
 
… but that was back when it was in C++ ;v)
 
sbi
@Fanael It rarely ever happens here.
 
@Potatoswatter Nice.
 
c++ is a much better language to teach someone programming in... unless of course your trying to teach a bunch of idiots what integers are... (java)
 
@Gabe Languages don't teach you things, you teach yourself things. Java doesn't have unsafe pointers, but it has references and deep/shallow copying, which are the same thing.
 
sbi
2:28 PM
@Abyx WPARAM used to be a Word, it's not a 32bits thing. A classical misnomer. stackoverflow.com/a/3146691/140719
 
Computer science classes ought to teach people how to properly use the command-line.
My friend is convinced that to send someone a program, you need to send the Xcode project file.
 
user784668
@sbi I didn't say it's a commonplace there, did I?
 
@Maxpm LOL. That's more like system administration. CS is a branch of math, heavy on graph theory.
 
@Potatoswatter In high school, computer science is synonymous with programming. It's more like a software engineering class, I guess.
 
@sbi it used only to be "wparam". WORD and DWORD ever was word and dword.
 
2:30 PM
@Potatoswatter True, I've taught myself everything. But have you taken an AP comp science class online?
 
@Maxpm Which is a good reason to avoid high-school classes in the subject!
Avoid vocational training like the plague.
 
@Potatoswatter I'll be finished with the CS course this year. I'll probably take philosophy or theology next.
 
user784668
DWORD is a misnomer. It is a single word on IA-32 and a halfword on AMD64.
 
@Gabe No, as I said, I took the exam in Freshman year without taking a class. I taught myself C++ in 6th grade.
 
@Fanael it's not word and half-word, in terms of IA
 
sbi
2:32 PM
@Fanael Temperature here in winter is usually around 0°C. When it's cold, it's ~-5°, it rarely ever drops below -10°, people are surprised when it goes below -15°, and I'm not sure I have, in the >20 years I'm here, have seen temperatures at -20° more than once of twice.
 
@Fanael WORD is 2 bytes, because the type was created for Win16.
 
@Potatoswatter oh wow thats pretty early... I didn't even know what computer programming was until 10th grade. Neither of my parents ever knew what it was...
 
LSL was my first programming experience, in Second Life. I'm actually still underage for it, I think, unless they changed it. xD
This was around when I was 13.
 
user784668
@Abyx It is. Machine word size on IA-32 is 32 bits, and 64 bits on AMD64. It's quite obvious, really.
 
user784668
@EtiennedeMartel And so it's another misnomer.
 
2:33 PM
Then I signed up for CS last year, learned how to make "Hello, World!" in C++ and cruised through the rest of the year.
 
@Gabe So… you're thinking about programming as a job, a vocation, and you're looking for the quickest path to employability. Don't. Stop and smell the roses, learn plenty of theory.
 
@Fanael as I said, x86 word size is 2 bytes, by definition
 
That is the way to differentiate yourself from the code monkeys.
 
@Potatoswatter I never said that ^_^ I think programming is fun. I don't care about employment
 
@Potatoswatter Hmm. Well-said.
 
user784668
2:34 PM
@sbi Heh, the same here in Silesia.
 
@Potatoswatter I'm just saying its a shame that highschools teach French, but not programming.
 
user784668
@Abyx No, it's not. By definition of a machine word.
 
@Potatoswatter And spanish, of all languages. God.
 
@Fanael Legacy reasons.
 
user784668
@EtiennedeMartel Right, but still a misnomer.
 
2:35 PM
@Gabe That's an interesting point.
 
user784668
In computing, word is a term for the natural unit of data used by a particular processor design. A word is basically a fixed sized group of bits that are handled as a unit by the instruction set and/or hardware of the processor. The number of bits in a word (the word size, word width, or word length) is an important characteristic of a specific processor design or computer architecture. The size of a word is reflected in many aspects of a computer's structure and operation; the majority of the registers in a processor are usually word sized and the largest piece of data that can b...
 
Programming is probably easier to learn than spoken languages, albeit possibly scarier.
 
@Fanael It wasn't when it was introduced. And they can't change it because it might break existing code.
 
After all, programmers are the "computer nerds."
 
@Fanael no. "machine word size in x86-32 is 4 bytes", but "x86 word size is 2 bytes". It's different things
 
2:36 PM
@Maxpm At best.
 
@Maxpm Not me
 
@LewsTherin That's how programmers are viewed, for better or for worse. Personally, I don't mind, but the point is that people tend to avoid our domain on principle.
 
I like to call myself a nerd, others see me as a cave dwelling freak who speaks in 1's and 0's.
 
user784668
@Abyx A word can't be both four bytes and two bytes. A "word" is a "machine word" when used in this context.
 
@Maxpm I know someone who had a similar experience recently lol
@Gabe Lulz
 
2:39 PM
@LewsTherin Do tell.
 
Oh damn I used it..
 
@Fanael what context? C\C++ WORD macro is named after x86 assembly word type
 
@Maxpm I can't.. it'd help folks narrow down who I am.. But let's just say.. never tell a bird you're doing computer science :O
 
if you ask Intel (and they ought to know), then a word is 2 bytes on x86 in 16, 32 and 64 bit mode
then you have double and quad words for 32/64 bit values
 
Computer science sounds alot uglier than comptuer programming...
 
user784668
2:40 PM
@jalf That's a silly name. If it's called a word, why it's not a machine word?
 
@Fanael because it was a machine word
 
I live in constant fear of people asking me to fix their wireless networks.
 
back when they named it
back then it was a 16-bit CPU
 
@Fanael because of backward compatibility
 
@Maxpm Ha ha! Oh man. I get that a lot
 
2:42 PM
then they added 32-bit support, and then they either had to redefine the term (and cause all sorts of compatibility problems), or just add a new term (dword) for the 32-bit equivalent
 
@Fanael FYI, you can mix 16-bit and 32-bit code on x86
 
there doesn't have to be one single, unambiguous unique "machine word" size
 
user784668
@jalf The term existed already, actually.
 
@Fanael not the x86 term
the concept of a machine word existed, sure
 
@Abyx Really? But not 32-bit and 64-bit?
 
user784668
2:43 PM
@Abyx No, you can't, at least not without much hassle.
 
but it is up to the CPU manufacturer to decide what it means on their architecture
and intel decided that a word is 16 bits because that was the width the x86 architecture was designed for
 
user784668
@jalf The x86-16 term dword did.
 
@Maxpm 32 and 64 bit too
 
speaking of architectures, I wonder how Apple is holding up without jobs...
 
Woa, woa, woa, what is this discussion about, again?
 
2:44 PM
but not 16 and 64 :)
 
@Fanael huh? mov eax, dword ptr [x] \ mov dx, word ptr [z]
 
@LewsTherin Whenever someone accosts me, I dismiss him by saying I'm busy hacking the Gibson.
 
@Gabe Apple have plenty of jobs. But I do wonder how they are getting on with out Jobs
 
user784668
@Abyx The second instruction is still 32-bit. In 16-bit mode, it'd have different encoding.
 
@Fanael oh, that. It might have. Does that change anything? Then they used "word" to denote the "natural" machine word size, and double word to denote a value twice as big
I don't see how that really changes anything
 
2:45 PM
@Fanael it's 16-bit instruction with prefix
 
There's even a QWORD type for 64-bit integers.
 
@Maxpm Then they ask the next day, and the day after.. until you bend to their will
 
user784668
@Abyx It's a 32/64-bit instruction that works on 16-bit partial registers. Its 16-bit equivalent is encoded differently.
 
Apple isn't a particularly top-down company… no good company is… so it will be a couple years before we really know how they're holding together in the long run.
 
@LewsTherin We ought to make a list of excuses.
 
2:46 PM
well... there is same instruction for both modes
 
IIRC when word was first used, it meant the data bus width, but it sort of got stuck as meaning 16bits. It makes sense, else right now we would not be to sure if word was 32 or 64bit
 
@Maxpm What if we run out of indices?
 
@LewsTherin Tape "EXCEPTION" labels to some rocks and start tossing them.
 
 
@Maxpm xD
 
user406009
2:49 PM
Sadly that excuse does not work in Java
 
user406009
Autocompile and whatnot.
 
user784668
@jalf If they redefined the term, it wouldn't cause that much of compatibility problems, 16-bit code could still stay 16-bit. And if they did, the name would make sense.
 
user784668
@EthanSteinberg Turn it off!
 
I'm feeling masochistic. Time to learn to use automake.
 
@Gabe Ha ha
 
2:51 PM
Masochism!
 
@EthanSteinberg actually, the way my company works, it does :P
 
@Fanael so you're suggesting they create a CPU which can run 32 bit code as well as existing 16-bit code unmodified, and then redefine one of the fundamental data types? Yes, I'm sure that wouldn't break anything
 
Why is w3fools so popular...
 
Except for all the 16-bit code they wanted their 32-bit CPUs to run
 
user784668
@jalf 16-bit and 32-bit modes are separate entities. Messing with the latter doesn't change anything in the former.
 
2:56 PM
@Gabe It's pretty bad, but what site has better coverage of the same material?
 
@Potatoswatter Thenewboston.com (some of the material) and pretty much everything else can be found on youtube or some other tutorial website. W3 just happens to have alot of everything...
Quality not quantity I guess...
 
Video tutorials do not make a reference site.
 
huh, I always thought W3S provided a fairly good introduction and documentation for most of the feature. Nice lever of detail. Of course you had to go else where for other details and ideas, but you can't learn everything from one book (or web site)
 

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