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5:00 PM
And yeah, maybe it will be added one day. But I doubt it. Once again, the committee prefers to prioritize the important the features that really justify the added complexity. Something that can be done with a bit of library code stands next to no chance of being added to the core language
 
I think bitwise operations would be clearer with binary literals.
 
@Ricky65 maybe. But it'd make such a microscopic difference, and even then, only in a tiny fraction of the C++ code that exists or is being written
 
I understand it wouldn't benefit most programmers as they wouldn't have a need for them
 
Given how many major features are queued up for the next standard, such a tiny, rarely used, piece of syntactic sugar sounds like an unlikely addition
 
same argument could be said for octals and they're in the standard
 
5:02 PM
@Ricky65 Nope, that's not the same argument
 
Als
Hola
 
Because they weren't added in C++0x
 
i didnt say they were
but they are in the standard
 
and they probably wouldn't have qualified if they were proposed today
 
Als
A look at the Q's asked by him & his comments, this guy seems more or less like @Tina(a.k.a Miss)
 
5:03 PM
but 25 years ago, the language was smaller and younger and it was easier to add features. Plus, even then they were inherited from C, rather than being added to C++ as a new feature
But yes, if octal literals were proposed as a feature of C++0x, the same argument could be made, and they would probably have been rejected too
 
you make it sound like adding binary literals would be hard, it wouldn't
 
The only use for octal literals I can think of is as chmod argument.
 
@Ricky65 I feel we're running in circles here
 
I wouldn't miss them if they ripped them out.
 
I think I've said it 3 times now, no, I think the feature would be relatively easy to implement, and I don't think the difficulty of the task matters
the reason it wasn't added is not "oh my god, that is such a huge feature, we could never implement that"
but "we have a backlog of literally hundreds of features that are more important, and we've already had to cut a huge number of more important features from C++0x."
You make it sound like small features are free to add. And they're not
 
5:06 PM
Hm, Boost.Containers.
 
Als
@jalf: You are being incredibly patient today I see, had a patience pill? :P
 
but once again, did you write a proposal for the committee to add binary literals?
 
I'm not on the committe
 
you don't need to be :)
anyone can write proposals
it's an open process
but if no one proposes the feature, it won't be added
 
I don't know much about the standardization process
 
5:07 PM
and given that the committee members are busy with other features, someone outside the committee would probably be better able to write the proposal
 
> Containers support stateful allocators and are compatible with Boost.Interprocess (they can be safely placed in shared memory).
 
I thought the proposals for C++0x closed in 2006?
 
@Ricky65 again, you don't need to. You can look up a few existing proposals to see how they're usually structured, and then write one yourself, and send it off to one of the committee members
@Ricky65 yep, and C++0x got formally approved by ISO just now, but you can propose features for the next revision :)
and again, someone has to do it. If you think a feature is important, make sure the committee knows about it
 
And for the next 10 years, you can use BOOST_BINARY. :P
 
I'd rather use my own user defined literal tbh
 
5:09 PM
@Ricky65 well, I think that answers it then. ;)
 
I think binary literals would be more elegant though
 
if even you would rather use an user defined literal than go to the work of adding the feature to the language, who's going to do the actual work of adding it?
 
I wonder if Containers will be accepted. Making allocators saner would sell it for me.
 
Doesn't C++0x already support stateful allocators?
 
no, they added scoped allocators
 
5:11 PM
and scoped allocators can be stateful, can't they?
I'll admit I haven't read up on the details of them. Gave me a headache :)
 
Haven't heard about that, TBH.
 
I think they can be stateful
 
Does MSVC stdlib support it?
That's my biggest problem with 0x features right now, whether MSVC10 can handle them. :/
Boost.Containers seem to support incomplete types as template arguments.
 
MSVC10 doesn't even support variadic templates
 
That I know, and it pains me a lot.
 
5:19 PM
Agreed
is std::tr1::result_of in C++0x? I don't see the point as we have decltype now
 
@Ricky65 backwards compatibility mainly. :) It was useful in C++03, and tr1 was an extension of that
afaik though, it's been revised to use decltype internally in C++0x
 
ok good
why the need for decltype then?
I thought library extensions were preferred
 
good day <o/
 
@Ricky65 because it wasn't possible to implement decltype as a library :)
result_of doesn't actually work in the general case. For a lot of cases, it relies on you supplying the return type as a typedef or similar
 
5:35 PM
ok
 
It was an approximation, but the real deal is a lot more powerful
a lot of core language features started their life as library extensions. I doubt we'd ever have had decltype, if Boost hadn't made result_of, thus highlighting both the limitations of a library implementation, and the usefulness of the feature
it's much the same story with lambdas. Boost.Lambda was an impressive library implementation, and the committee actually looked hard at standardizing lambdas based on that
but eventually realized that there were too many limitations that could only be avoided by adding it as a core language feature instead
 
@jalf ...and in many of the others, it depends on compiler bugs.
 
I think we would have had decltype, a lot of languages such as C# have typeof
 
@Ricky65 they're not the same though
In C#, you can't do `typeof(2) x = 2;
but you can do that with decltype
or List<typeof(foo())>
 
I know
 
5:41 PM
typeof is much more like std::type_id, which C++98 had
of course, you might be right. I obviously don't know what might have happened. But if the committee had thought the problem could be solved as a library extension, they would have preferred that
 
@jalf howcome you're not on the committee yourself?
 
@Ricky65 I can't afford to travel across the world 2-3 times a year, I don't have the time, and to be honest, I don't think I have the expertise for it either :)
 
I thought you were a C++ expert
 
hello
 
I don't think so. Maybe a few people on SO would say I am, but I think there's pretty far up to most of the committee members in terms of C++ skills and knowledge still :)
 
5:47 PM
I'm trying to compile ccrypt in my Qt project
but the compiler is giving me an error message I don't understand
 
ok I've g2g bye
 
besides, expert or not, most of the current members are sponsored by their employer. The committee doesn't pay your expenses, after all, so you either have to do that yourself, or get your employer or someone to pay :)
 
It's at the line 16 of this code: pastebin.com/mwTGTHfs
 
@Ricky65 see ya
 
and the error is "rijndael.c:29: error: C2054: expected '(' to follow 'inline'"
does anybody know what could be the problem?
the code looks right to me?
 
5:49 PM
why does the error message say line 29?
if you say 16
 
sorry I've only pasted a part of the code. In my source file, it's line 29
 
ah
Does C have an inline keyword?
 
good question
 
also, last I checked, Qt was a C++ library, so trying to use it from C seems pretty optimistic :)
 
yes my application is C++ and I want to integrate ccrypt
 
5:51 PM
C99 has inline.
 
i think ccrypt is C++ too right?
 
no clue :)
but what you posted is a C file, according to the error message
 
i see
so if it's compiled with a C++ compiler (it's MSV2008), it won't work?
 
Change inline to __inline.
 
@Laurent C++ compilers can usually compile C code. I just meant that if that file is from ccrypt, then ccrypt is obviously C:)
 
5:56 PM
@Cat Plus Plus, yes that was it, it's compiling again. Thanks!
just a question though, why did I have to change it to __inline?
 
MSVC doesn't implement C99, and C89 has no inline keyword.
 
oo, good thinking
 
 
1 hour later…
7:03 PM
aw, annoying. Tried optimizing my library, and ended up slowing it down by 3% or so
If it'd been a bigger slowdown I could just throw the changes away as a failed experiment, but when the difference is so tiny I have to wonder if there's something else I should tweak a bit that'd make it faster
 
7:55 PM
@jalf what kind of library are you making? =)
 
8:21 PM
if the librarians are nekkid I'd be happy yo help ;)
 
9:00 PM
If I wish to use threads, but want as little dependency as possible, what are my options?
 
9:22 PM
what's up humans and animals?
 
hmm
C99 has inline but C99's inline is ugly
 
whats ugly about it?
 
it doesn't work like C++'s inline
I don't remember, exactly, but it's not good
 
10:14 PM
anyone seen this? Channel 9 GoingNative
 
it was linked about six billion times when it first aired
 
oh I must have missed it then
I'm sure six billion is a bit much :P
 
I had a few bots
 
03:00 - 17:0017:00 - 23:00

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