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Als
5:00 PM
think about it, It would be like an encyclopedia
 
@jalf Yes, compared to sound, it's great -- but calling something better than the sound situation on Linux is about as weak of a compliment as is humanly possible.
 
Als
hmm...no interest..So I better shut up
 
I still don't get why everyone seems to believe that "if we take SO, which actually seemed to help educate people, and completely ignore the SO format, instead replicating the FAQ's we already have dozens of everywhere on the internet, everyone will be better off"
@JerryCoffin no argument there ;)
 
Als
@jalf: That is a complicated statement, I can;t seem to make out what you intend to say really.
 
Questions on SO work great. FAQ's have existed for 20 years and made zero difference, why do people think that making yet another FAQ will suddenly make a difference just because it's on SO?
 
5:03 PM
@Als At least for C, it's pretty easy: "Unspecified behavior: §J.1\nUndefined behavior: §J.2\nImplementation defined behavior: §J.3\nLocale Specific behavior: §J.4"
 
Als
@jalf: It would help us, the one who answer as well
@JerryCoffin: we already have such an Q difference between each of them explained I think
 
@Als how, exactly?
 
@Als I Think he's saying (in essence): "FAQs have been around forever, and they've never worked. Why do we think doing it again will work any better?"
 
because you can post a link to a FAQ-on-SO, rather than just any other FAQ? Yeah, I can see how that'd make your lives so much easier
 
POINTS!
 
Als
5:05 PM
@jalf: Because SO policy is to post content rather than links that are outside of SO
@CatPlusPlus: What I am suggesting on the contrary would limit the points
 
@Als no, SO policy is to answer the damn questions
anyway, I've had this argument before, and tbh, I don't really care. Make as many FAQ's as you like :p
I just don't see why anyone thinks it'll make anyone's lives better
 
Als
@jalf: And in a self contained manner, which means no links, Are you going to say that is not the policy, no external links?
@jalf: I guess then you are against the whole idea of the C++-Faq tag in the first place then
 
@Als yep :)
I've had plenty of yelling matches with @sbi about that before :p
but like I said, it's not important enough to keep going on about ;)
 
Als
@jalf: We are allowed to have differences of opinion
:)
 
SO policies are getting ridiculous as of late, TBH.
 
Als
5:13 PM
@CatPlusPlus: Cite examples?
 
Can I put on my CV: Google-fu 2nd Dan?
 
@hexa My Google-Fu is stronger than yours.
 
PROVE IT
 
Sure, what do you want me to find?
 
my email
 
5:20 PM
@Als Sorry, they were in the comments and they were NOISE.
 
Als
@CatPlusPlus: ah..but a jist of what you were refferring?
 
contact@hexa-horse.fr
 
lol, nt :P
 
Als
hexa is a horse?
 
Apparently.
And a French one at that.
 
5:22 PM
Look at my horse, my horse is amazing
 
@hexa When I get hoarse, people think it's amazing because I finally shut up!
 
It tastes like raisins.
 
Als
Hexa is a Fox, Tony is a horny tiger, sbi is a grumpy Gorilla, jalf is a Penguin, Cat is as I heard last time a girl...
 
So you think im Foxy winky winky
 
Als
DeadMg is a puppy, Xaade is a Wily Fox
 
5:24 PM
I'm a hedgehog. If it has tines or spikes, I'm there. And hello.
 
@HostileFork Hello.
 
Als
@HostileFork: keep away from the @TonyTheTiger he might misuse you for his nasty purposes :P
@hexa: You are french?
 
@Als No, Brazilian :P
Cat was just trolling
 
Als
@hexa: Oh then you are our Samba guy!
The room dancer
:P
 
5:28 PM
And hot lover too!
all hail the stereotypes ;)
 
Als
Here we go, now i don't know of that and i can say for sure I dont want to know
lol
 
hahahaha
 
Als
I think @hexa, would be Hugh Hefner junior here
 
Hefner is the man. Yesterday he made like 10 playmates do planking and posted on the internet
 
Als
@hexa: Well he is 80 yrs old, and he is doing lot more than the planking, that is the real think you are jealous of
Why not say it eh
 
5:32 PM
I don't hide it! If he can command 10 playmates to lay belly down and kiss the floor, imagine what other stuff he can make them do :)
help me here Tony
 
Als
@hexa: Imagining now
:D
 
Living up to the old saw about C++ programmers treating women like objects, aren't y'all?
 
Oh I see what you did there
 
Als
@HostileFork: You mean It
 
Only if they're copyable.
 
5:36 PM
@HostileFork Nice avatar btw
 
Als
Yeah we treat them like some divine objects that are sorely missed in here
@hexa: You naughty guy, what are you thinking about that pic?
:P
 
@Als Nothing I swear :P I liked it for real hehe
 
@hexa : thanks, my "about" page here talks about the name and what all that's about hostilefork.com/about
 
Als
@hexa: Should i believe you, one moment you were talking of playmates..planking..Hugh doing things..imagining and next i see you as a saliva dripping lusty monster saying "Nice avatar btw"
 
Not "blogging" much right now, but sometimes I do a bit of lowbrow C++ humor (while highbrow by non-C++ standards) hostilefork.com/2009/08/29/tweakinganalog-literals-humor
 
Als
5:39 PM
lol
Pin Drop Silence
 
@HostileFork Webdev nitpick: your logo should be a link to main page, rather than the feed.
 
Yeah, I'm running some wordpress default theme, and wanted to make the RSS feed apparent and that thing just had this banner
There are many things I should do if I had time, including ditch WordPress, because I read the code and said "all right, that's not acceptable"
 
It's in PHP, what'd you expect.
 
I didn't know PHP until I read it, so I didn't know what to expect.
 
@Als How about the following link? :)
 
5:48 PM
@Als huh? what would I do?
 
Als
@FredOverflow: Thats nice, but I was thinking of a single Q that would have link to answers which explain the UBs
We keep updating that, and eventually we have a answer which links most UBs that occur
Apparently, no one showed interest so I shut up
@TonyTheTiger: Are you really surprised that we were talking of sex and girls and your name found a mention?
 
@Als no, but you said something about me doing something nasty?
 
Als
@TonyTheTiger: Nasty things with the thing in forks avatar
 
@CatPlusPlus - Since when I set up that site and abhorred PHP, I learned Django, and Ruby on Rails, and I understand all of it and think it's tinker toys. But my addiction is to an esoteric language that is crack for the lunatic fringe of programmers, called Rebol, invented by the AmigaOS guy and I wasted a lot of my free time trying to help them with their message...now being picked up by an open source project called Red, which I don't know if I'm going to join or not.
 
Als
:P
 
5:51 PM
@Als lol, you have a twisted mind, unlike myself :P
 
@HostileFork what is their message?
 
Als
@TonyTheTiger: Unlike you eh :)
 
lulz :)
 
Als
@TonyTheTiger: I wish and plan to read a good STL book this weekend
noble thought aye?
 
@jalf - Software complexity has gotten out of hand and carefully designed refinement must replace multi-gigabyte installs of opaque binaries if we're ever to get things right. "Rebol is a rebellion against software complexity."
 
5:54 PM
rebollion
 
@jalf - But since their whole chat and BBS and source control infrastructure rejects the HTML/browser space and they have their private conversations in Rebol-driven systems, I'm the only one of their users who could (at least at one time) write a tag description, so I get to say what I think: stackoverflow.com/tags/rebol/info
 
@Als Sounds good -- as long as your "weekend" lasts a month or so...
 
Als
@JerryCoffin: yes i know, I usually want to read..like reading..but then hardly can find the time...The job keeps me busy
 
@Als sounds like a plan, I might browse reddit :P
 
Als
@TonyTheTiger: or you might party.......
 
5:57 PM
@Als meh, perhaps
nothing to party about though...
 
Als
@TonyTheTiger: Did you say, Girls? or are my eyes playing tricks?;-)
 
@Als I simply don't find UB as fascinating as I used to.
 
Als
@FredOverflow: Because you know most of them pretty well by now :)
 
I'd rather concentrate on something productive.
 
@Als I might recommend taking one step back from reading about STL, and instead read Elements of Programming, which is (partly) by Alexander Stepanov. It's also small enough that (it looks like) it'll only take a weekend (but in reality takes a few months to really grok it all).
 
6:02 PM
Doesn't that book use Concepts?
 
@Als no girls in my life right now unfortunately :(
 
Okay, no girls. How about women?
 
Als
Or men
 
I have so many books on my shelf, it's rather unreal and I haven't read that many of them
@Als ok that's wrong
@FredOverflow no women either :(
 
Als
@JerryCoffin: Let me get a peek at the book online
 
6:03 PM
@FredOverflow Yes, sort of -- but not really as part of the language. Then again, the C++ standard uses "concepts" as well (e.g., "The Iterator requirements form the basis of the iterator concept taxonomy; every iterator satisfies the Iterator requirements....)
 
@TonyTheTiger What kinds of books? Programming? Novels?
@TonyTheTiger How about grannies?
 
@FredOverflow programming and IT Security stuff
@FredOverflow ugh yuck :(
 
List 5 unread books here and I'll tell you what to read next.
 
Als
@TonyTheTiger: What is wrong?
 
@Als men with men
that's wrong
 
@TonyTheTiger This chat room is full of interacting men, can't be that wrong...
 
Writing Security Tools & Exploits, Windows via C/C++, The IDA Pro Book, Writing Secure Code 2nd Edition, Windows Advanced Debugging, Algorithms in a Nutshell
 
Als
@TonyTheTiger: That is peoples personal preference
 
@FredOverflow lol, I meant homosexual
there's 5 books I haven't read :P
 
Als
@JerryCoffin: Thanks I can download it yay
 
sbi
6:09 PM
@jalf I can't remember us ever yelling at each other. We disagreed about that FAQ idea, yeah, but what I remember was a civil and polite disagreement.
 
Als
shh....grumpy man in the house...ten hutt!
 
@TonyTheTiger "Writing Secure Code" sounds interesting
 
huh, grumpy don't scare me :P
@FredOverflow lemme take a peek
 
Unless it's all "don't do buffer overflows".
 
sbi
@TonyTheTiger An precondition for being scared is knowledge of the danger.
 
6:11 PM
@CatPlusPlus Aka "don't use gets"
 
@Als Not the whole thing -- but you can legally download one chapter, which is plenty for one weekend.
 
@EtiennedeMartel There is no reason to use stdio in C++ anyway. :P
 
@FredOverflow Chapter 5: Public Enemy #1: The Buffer Overrun :P
 
Lol.
What's public enemy #2? Buffer underrun?
 
Chapter 8: Cryptographic Foibles
 
6:12 PM
No, the Joker
 
oh... just scared me, I opened a random page and it has "Regular expressions" written big bold letters...
 
@CatPlusPlus No -- "Sander Overrun". Less common, but really more dangerous.
 
> The title of the book is misleading to begin with. The book is not about writing secure code. It's about (1) not writing non-secure code and (2) using Windows specific security APIs.
:)
 
Nobody uses UNIX anyway.
Nobody
 
@CatPlusPlus I occasionally use printf to output hex numbers, because I can never remember the C++ way of doing that.
 
6:16 PM
@FredOverflow The std::hex modifier.
 
Anyway, I'm reading "Imperfect C++" now, and it's one of the few books that discusses aggregates and PODs. Kudos!
 
@FredOverflow Almost any carefully formatted output will be easier and much more compact using printf than iostreams.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Yes, but what about the length? What is the C++ equivalent of the following?
printf("%08x\n", i);
 
woah, never heard of "CPU Starvation Attacks" before
 
@EtiennedeMartel Also, if you say std::hex, then everything after that is also in hex, so you have do somehow undo it.
(Or is it not?)
 
6:18 PM
basically while(true) lol
 
Style question: while (condition) or while(condition)?
 
@FredOverflow Yes -- the whole situation with "which flags are sticky" in iostreams is just plain ugly.
@FredOverflow definitely while (condition)
 
One day C++ will adopt boost::format and all will be happy.
 
@FredOverflow boost::format
 
6:20 PM
@FredOverflow I'm not so sure about that -- boost::format is pretty ugly. I think a template with a variable parameter list would be a better start.
 
It should work like .NET's String.Format. Essentially a type safe sprintf.
 
@JerryCoffin Well, now that we have variadic templates... go start the design ;)
 
Als
"Found methods that work, however, use many librarys like Boost. I wonder if you can make a simple, preferably with only the librarys of STD."
 
(Well, not exactly like String.Format because that isn't typesafe)
 
@EtiennedeMartel Hidden files are the evil here.
 
Als
6:22 PM
What does that mean?
STD?
 
sensually transmitted delights?
 
In what situation can the pointer this be NULL?
 
never in a well-formed program
 
Als
If you are saying this means it cant be bull
 
Of course you could say ((Foo*)0)->foo() but that is UB.
 
6:24 PM
It is crashing because this is NULL... im puzzled
 
Well, look at the caller.
 
On VC++, calling an instance method on a null pointer leads to this being null.
 
If you call a method on a NULL pointer, you get UB, which may give the impression of this being NULL.
 
Ok, gonna check that
the debugger might be throwing me off
 
Are you debugging a release build?
 
6:25 PM
In practice it probably won't crash if you're not using the object's fields (but then make the method static).
That means you might have a bug that you won't notice.
Gotta love UB.
 
void printf(const char *s)
{
while (*s) {
if (*s == '%' && *(++s) != '%')
throw std::runtime_error("invalid format string: missing arguments");
std::cout << *s++;
}
}

template<typename T, typename... Args>
void printf(const char *s, T value, Args... args)
{
while (*s) {
if (*s == '%' && *(++s) != '%') {
std::cout << value;
++s;
printf(s, args...); // call even when *s == 0 to detect extra arguments
return;
}
std::cout << *s++;
}
throw std::logic_error("extra arguments provided to printf");
}
 
@EtiennedeMartel Or make it a non-member function.
 
Not original with me though, and also just a sketch -- not even close to a finished design.
 
@FredOverflow That also.
 
@JerryCoffin It doesn't matter what I write after the %, right?
That is, %s and %d do exactly the same thing?
 
6:31 PM
hai guise
 
@FredOverflow Right -- but that's intentional. Choosing between string and integer should be done based on type. The problem is that it should (for example) distinguish between %d and %x, which both take the same type, but format the result differently.
 
the problem is that it emulates C's printf
 
@DeadMG Hello.
 
Style vote: tabs or spaces?
 
Spaces.
 
6:34 PM
@DeadMG HELLO THAR
 
I use spaces, personally
 
@FredOverflow Spaces, always.
 
the cack I get trying to paste anything with tabs and suddenly they're 8 spaces instead of 4 and all the indenting is off
any sane person uses spaces because they're the same between editors
 
@FredOverflow tabs because it conflicts with everyone else ;)
 
Tabs for indenting work quite well. It's when people use them for alignment shit starts to break apart badly.
 
6:36 PM
@CatPlusPlus except when some idiot uses an editor which sets tabs == 8 spaces and suddenly half his screen is wasted on indentation
 
@JerryCoffin Hm... you could wrap the int in a class whose output operator performs hex output...
But then it's not part of the format string :(
 
@jalf Well, that's his problem, isn't it.
 
but yeah, in a perfect world, I'd really say tabs should be used for indentation. But again, broken tools ruins the show
 
I prefer tabs. Code uses less harddisk space and parses faster ;)
 
I'd like to see more editors implement modelines.
 
6:37 PM
What's that?
 
@FredOverflow I've tried that (and a couple of other things) but I haven't been entirely happy with anything I've come up with yet. Personally, I don't mind getting rid of the format string entirely, as long as the replacement is at least close to equally expressive (unlike the current manipulators).
 
Instructions for editor embedded inside the file, usually regarding syntax highlighting and tab stops.
 
Format strings have to be parsed at runtime. From an efficiency perspective, I don't like that.
The advantage of format strings is that you could create them at runtime, but in practice nobody does it, right?
 
sbi
@FredOverflow Tabs at the beginning of the lines, because everybody ought to be able to set their own tab width. Spaces everywhere else, because the code should look neatly aligned even with a tab width different from your own.
Yes, that requires you to be anally correct about some lines beginning with tabs and being continued with spaces. Yes, that requires you to be anal and have your editor display whitespace to do it right. So? C++ requires you t be anal anyway.
 
I did several times, though not in C++.
 
6:40 PM
@FredOverflow No, that would be hideously unsafe
 
@FredOverflow well, people typically create the format string at compile time, but it's parsed at runtime
 
however, I believe that people do load them from files in internationalization
 
@FredOverflow In theory, I don't either -- though in fact, parsing it is often (generally?) fast enough that it's almost entirely irrelevant. I've created format strings at run time, and (more importantly/frequently) read them in from configuration files.
 
because in some languages, the order of what you might want to put in and the text might be different
 
anyway, my personal rule of thumb is "if you're doing string formatting in C++, you're using the wrong damn language" ;)
 
6:41 PM
although if you ask me, that's what an embedded language like Lua is for
 
Damn, VC10 does not support variadic templates :(
 
@FredOverflow nope :(
Not sure if it's one of those "we've got it implemented internally, but you can't have it until VC11" features
or if they don't even have it internally yet
 
I think it was next on the list after the ones in there at the moment
 
@jalf I'd tend to guess it's just being held for VC11 -- they claim it took only about a week to add them to gcc, and it's hard to imagine the VC code base being much uglier than that is.
 
@jalf They simply don't have it yet. At least that's what STL said in several videos.
 
6:46 PM
Visual Studio is a lot more conservative than GCC
 
@FredOverflow but videos from when? I know they didn't have it when they released VC10, but do they have it today? :)
@DeadMG well, MSVC had lambdas first
 
@jalf How would I know? :)
 
they prioritized differently to GCC
but it's my understanding that MSVC basically will never, ever fix pretty much anything- look at the state of their SFINAE support
so they take a bit more time to QA it - not that that's especially effective
 
@DeadMG not sure about that. It really looks like in the last couple of years they've started putting people who care on the MSVC team
 
@DeadMG VC has tended to progress in a small number of relatively large changes, whereas gcc tends to make a lot more smaller ones (e.g., vc 7.0 -> 7.1 was a huge leap forward in conformance).
 
6:48 PM
well
 
not necessarily care about their customers, of course, but care about their language support
 
I will not be convinced unless they start genuinely fixing bugs in their compiler
not just the trivial ones, but actual non-conformance, like SFINAE
 
@DeadMG they've fixed a ton of non-conformance bugs. How do you think they got from VC6 to where they are today? ;)
but yeah, there are some embarassing holes in it
 
imo
 
@DeadMG Or the covariant return type issue, IIRC?
 
6:50 PM
if it's a bug, then you fix it, and you tell your customers that if they depend on it, it's their own fault when you fix it
@FredOverflow Yeah- stuff like that
and the features they do implement, their libraries are a version behind
their new concurrency library isn't move-aware, and none of their libraries use static_assert where it could do
and the std::function constructor can have SFINAE support added to make it non-ambiguous
on GCC anyway
 
anyway, I agree they have some serious issues to work out in how they prioritize and maybe just in how much manpower they have available
my point is just that it's a bit unfair to claim that they simply don't fix conformance bugs at all
 
that's true
I won't claim that they never fix anything
it just takes forever
 
I think my main beef with them is their ridiculous release cycle. We get new features once every 3 years or so, and apart from being a pain for us, and making MSVC perpetually lag behind the competition, I suspect it's also one of the reasons why they're so out of touch on "won't fix" issues. It just has to be rejected once, then it'll be reevaluated in 3 years, when they've got another huge backlog to catch up on
 
agreed
if they released every six months or so, it would be a much better experience
right now, I'm sitting salivating at variadic templates and (less sucky) nested lambda support and constexpr and rvalue refs 2.1 support in GCC
 
yeah
I'm mainly itching for <threading>
 
6:56 PM
ah, I don't need portability, so the PPL works well for me
the PPL interface is way superior to the Standard thread interface anyway
 
if I could ditch boost.thread, my library would have zero dependencies
also, boost.thread's TLS implementation is awful
 
lol
you know, I've been toying with writing my own compiler-compiler
Bison is irritating me
 
@DeadMG I believe it irritates everyone
 
my grammar is a pit of DRY violations
I need a compiler compiler where you can pass around non-terminals and generate rules from arguments
 
Most compiler writers only use it for quick prototypes, and then they write the actual compiler by hand
 
6:59 PM
@DeadMG At one time, they released quarterly. It was a bit better, but not a whole lot.
 

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