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12:00 AM
@LucDanton Ok, I get that. But I do not think it makes it wrong.
Wrong is too strong a word.
 
sbi
@StackedCrooked I'm not good at forcing anything down the throats of my kids arbitrarily. (I told my biggest to decide on her own when to go to bed when she was eleven. I try to more and more become a counselor, rather than a dictator for her. A very common dialog between us goes like this these days: "Is it Ok if I ..." "You know I'm not gonna tell you to either ... or not. You're old enough to decide for yourself." "Um, Ok. Er, if you where in my place, would you ... or not? And why? Oh, and how?")
 
If he did say that it was unscientific, then I think that it's okay to say it's wrong in the context: "it's wrong to think in terms of purpose in science."
 
@sbi I think I would go for a similar approach.
 
Hi all
 
sbi
@StackedCrooked OTOH, I'm not good at protecting my kids from the harsh reality of the world, either. If they dilly-dally in the bathroom in the evening, there might not be enough time left for a story, and no amount of weeping will help them. Because time, once gone, can't be gained back in this world. (I will comfort the weeping child, though, because I'm not strafing, I'm just relating how this place works.)
 
12:02 AM
@sbi That's exactly the approach I take with my daughter. I never want to undermine her psychologically.
@Mahesh Hello.
 
@sbi that's fairly strict
 
sbi
@StackedCrooked Oh yeah, strictness is what I'm usually are accused of. :)
 
@sbi Yes, her.
 
I would treat kid's opinion equal as an adult's.
 
There. Now according to the chat log, it was always correct :)
 
12:04 AM
I don't like how most adults belittle kids.
 
sbi
@Josh And I never complained. :)
 
@StackedCrooked Ha, you've not had kids then bro. You respect their opinions to a limit.
 
@Josh nope, I haven't got any kids.
 
sbi
@StackedCrooked That I won't. I mean, are we talking about a two year old or a 17 year old child? There's shades between these.
 
12:05 AM
@MartinhoFernandes Aww crap. I forget, only the very powerful can edit history :)
 
@sbi 10+ I guess. Once they gain some eloquence.
 
Hey - question for all the non-native english speakers in here (of which I'm sure there are a few)... are there any languages out there that use non-english reserved words OR are there translations of predominantly english languages to non-english?
 
LOGO has been translated a lot.
 
OCaml is french I think.
 
sbi
@StackedCrooked Neither can you take a 2yo seriously on all accounts, nor can you tell a 10yo that, from now on, you're taking everything seriously the kid will say. It's a process you both will have to undergo. (The trouble with many/most parents is that they never even start this process.)
 
12:08 AM
@StackedCrooked ML is Scottish though.
 
So, does OCaml have french syntax? (I haven't used it)
 
@Josh I believe some languages went the way of COBOL, i.e. were designed for non developers and attempt to look like natural language, and some of those attempts were not in English.
It doesn't.
 
sbi
@Josh Brainfuck even uses a name that no native English speaker seems to be able to spell correctly, so it must be non-English, too.
 
sbi
@MartinhoFernandes What what?
 
12:11 AM
@sbi lol, indeed. I can imagine specifying Brainfuck on a deliverables area to a potentional client :)
 
That thing about BrainFuck.
 
Semaphore terminology is based on Dutch terms:
> The canonical names P and V come from the initials of Dutch words. V stands for verhogen ("increase"). Several explanations have been offered for P, including proberen for "to test,"[2] passeer for "pass," probeer for "try," and pakken for "grab." However, Dijkstra wrote that he intended P to stand for the portmanteau prolaag,[3] short for probeer te verlagen, literally "try to reduce," or to parallel the terms used in the other case, "try to decrease."[4][5][6]
 
@MartinhoFernandes Normally you see it spelled out censored, e.g. brainf*ck or bf
 
Ah, the name.
There was even emphasis there.
Oops.
 
sbi
@MartinhoFernandes :)
Oh, and there's Ook!, which is not English at all. :)
 
12:14 AM
@sbi a verbose brainfuck. Sure, why not.
 
That's what the Librarian uses to index the Library of UU.
 
Is there a guide somewhere on SO about editing chat? Like properly linking, italics, etc... ?
 
2 days ago, by Martinho Fernandes
If you are new here, please read the newbie hints. Thank you.
 
@MartinhoFernandes I've heard of Malbolge, it's like deciphering cryptography or some shit
 
12:17 AM
@MartinhoFernandes Thanks.
 
sbi
Dietmar Kühl is said to have, at a C++ Standards Committee meeting, spent an evening furiously hacking away at his laptop in a quite corner while everybody else was chatting over their beer, only to come out at the end of the evening with shining eyes, showing off his hack of GCC using all German identifiers, a joke that only a few of the attending committee members appreciated.
 
sbi
Sorry, no serious candidates from me tonight, @Josh.
 
Oh btw, the :NNNNNN mention in the hints is outdated.
 
sbi
@MartinhoFernandes ???
 
12:20 AM
We have passed one million messages now!
It's missing an N.
:)
 
@sbi lol
 
sbi
@MartinhoFernandes Oh. Well, you are free to fix this right away. I'll file it for fixing when I have assembled a few bugs and glitches.
 
Jul 12 at 15:54, by Cat Plus Plus
1000000th, baby.
 
@MartinhoFernandes not sure I'm following?
 
12:22 AM
You replied to the wrong person, nothing special.
 
sbi
@TonyTheTiger You seemed to have failed following the link, too.
 
@sbi I did click the link... I'm confused
huh?
 
sbi
@TonyTheTiger It's probably me then.
It's half past two here, and I've been awake for 20hrs in a row, traveled for 17hrs in one car, two airplanes, one cab, two trains, and several different public transport systems during that time, always trying to hurry up two kids, who were dog-tired in the end. I'm simply to exhausted to make much sense.
I guess.... G'night!
 
Goodnight.
10
Q: Do Russians really drink as much alcohol as is widely believed?

DVKIt's a widely held stereotype that Russians drink a lot of alcohol. Is there any research supporting or refuting this belief? Possible metrics I can think of (though you're welcome to add more) can be: Average volume of alcoholic drinks consumed in a year per capita. Ideally somehow normalize...

Apparently it's true.
 
hahah
 
1:01 AM
@MartinhoFernandes .lol
 
 
5 hours later…
Als
6:04 AM
All alone...
 
@Als You're not alone!
 
user457812
No, no, Als is alone.
 
Oh. That's sad.
 
user457812
I have developed the habit of talking to myself over in my Mac/iOS chatroom. I suspect it entertains passersby.
 
@Als, I think we overlapped a couple questions today. I thought you gave some pretty solid answers.
@nil Interesting.
Do you pass the Turing test?
 
user457812
6:16 AM
Not yet.
 
user457812
It appears that mentioning platypuses confuses me.
 
So nil, you are a Mac guy eh?
(or gal, I guess)
 
user457812
Aye
 
user457812
One of those horrible people.
 
6:36 AM
Ah.
Mac users are not horrible.
Well, not because they are Mac users. I'm sure some are horrible, but it's a correlation :)
 
user457812
I like to assume we're all horrible. That way I'm pleasantly surprised when it's not true.
 
6:51 AM
Ah. I do kind of the same thing.
Every morning, I assume I will die on my way to work.
Then, when I get there, I am so happy to be alive if code my ass off until lunch, and then become complacent and sit on stack overflow for a few hours.
Whoa - a 636 just appeared under my name.
 
7:35 AM
hey guys
I'm working in C#, but I've got a little problem that has to do with a managed library written in C++
do you think you guys can help me?
 
 
3 hours later…
10:53 AM
@JohannesSchaublitb What happened?
 
.olleH
 
sbi
@CatPlusPlus You might want to turn your monitor around. Your looking at it from behind.
 
sbi
11:15 AM
Haha! At the end of the Stack Exchange Developer Compensation paper, where they have a table to evaluate various skill sets, the last one is:
> Able to emulate a 1200 baud modem using just your mouth (with error correction protocol) well enough to upload a GIF picture to Compuserve.
That's funny.
The trouble is, the worst they expect you to perform for any of the skills is grade B.
I guess most of us will never be able to work at SE. Heck, most of you might not be old enough to know what Compuserve was!
 
@LucDanton I removed this, because I found it to be overkill. Better employ trace.CanTrace(LEVEL_INFO, some_props) ? log(whatever) : ((void)0). That's more straight forward.
 
Makes sense.
 
i didn't think of the trivial solution when I wrote this
instead doing that overly complicated lambda thing and getting 8 upvotes :(
after 2 months of gnome3, I'm now back to kde :)
 
sbi
Someone thinking just posting a link to the TAOCP Wikipedia entry is a valid answer: stackoverflow.com/questions/6716847/…
 
folks
why is the C# room empty
 
11:35 AM
C# developers are nine to fivers.
And it's weekend now.
Just kidding :)
The real question is: Why are all rooms empty except for the C++ room?
 
I came here because I liked the C++ questions but there weren't enough of them.
 
sbi
@JohannesSchaublitb Because nobody is there.
@StackedCrooked Not all of them: sleepingtime.org/jonskeet
@LucDanton If programming in C++ leaves you with the feeling there aren't enough questions, you are doing it wrong.
 
@sbi Oh no, I have plenty of questions myself. I meant questions from others on SO.
 
Hi, everybody
I have a really stupid question :)
Suppose I have
static int n = 1;
return n*(n+1)*(n+2)
and I want to increment n
It doesn't matter on which n I put a ++, does it?
n*(n+1)*(n++ + 2)
is this OK?
 
11:58 AM
@ArmenTsirunyan No
 
UB? :)
 
You have to use int ret = n++; and return that.
 
@LucDanton Yeah, obviously I can. But doing it otherwise is UB?
return n*(n+++1); is UB?
 
Can't remember if it's unspecified or undefined.
And it doesn't matter either way: don't do it.
 
@LucDanton Gosh, seriously? Of course I am not going to do it?! Come on!
 
sbi
11:59 AM
@ArmenTsirunyan Read this FAQ entry: stackoverflow.com/questions/4176328/…
 
@sbi But all those traditional examples include changing the value of the object twice, not one change + one use (without changing)
 
So apparently it's unspecified.
 
sbi
@ArmenTsirunyan But it also generally explains sequence points. I thought that would help.
 
The relevant point is, imo, "What is the relation between Undefined Behaviour and Sequence Points?"
So it's a very good link.
 
@sbi Well, obviously there are no sequence point in n*(n++ +1); so it should be undefined...
except for the one after the full expression
 
12:02 PM
@ArmenTsirunyan What's obvious about it?
> 1) Between the previous and next sequence point a scalar object shall have its stored value modified at most once by the evaluation of an expression.
 
@LucDanton Because neither * nor + nor ++ introduce a SP
 
@ArmenTsirunyan But that's not enough to have UB.
 
@LucDanton That's what I'm asking
 
So you don't want to do the heavy lifting and expect us to?
As I told you, I suspect it is unspecified behaviour but unless I'm on your payroll I'm not going to check if it's UB.
Why should it matter that it is UB?
 
@LucDanton It's interesting. Isn't it? :)
 
12:04 PM
@ArmenTsirunyan No.
 
@LucDanton It is for me
@LucDanton I see some general hatred about questions that involve things which shouldn't be used anyway. I personally don't see anything wrong with being interested in, for example, how to make nitroglycerin even if you're never going to do it. Curiosity isn't a sin
 
Except there are a ton of questions regarding sequence points every week and that link provided all there is to know.
I'm not complaining about the question I'm complaining about the noise.
 
sbi
@LucDanton You come to a chat room and complain about the signal-to-noise ratio? That is truly bizarre.
 
@LucDanton There is a lot of noise because the subject isn't very clear and that FAQ entry doesn't really cover all there is... (but it's great anyway)... OK, anyway, sorry to make you nervious with noisy questions...
 
Signal to noise where signal is C++ questions and noise is C++ questions about sequence points.
 
12:17 PM
My singleton-sense is tingling. Someone on SO is suggesting the use of singletons!
2
A: Should I use global variables?

Dave RigbyYou need to ask yourself why global variables are considered 'bad' in the first place - see the related question are global variables bad?. I won't repeat here; but the main reason is they reduce encapsulation, making program design and maintenance more difficult. However, singletons are typical...

 
Als
Hello
Thses days i see a string of offensive marked chats, everytime i sign in
 
here? I don't see anything
 
sbi
@Als ???
 
Als
@Josh: Ah, sorry I left by the time you posted, Thanks though, hope to see more of you.
@jalf, @sbi: Yes, probably a language you do not understand
 
hmm? I don't see any languages I don't understand here either
I'm confused
 
Als
12:29 PM
have you folks not noticed, When I log in I could see today, yesterday as well i think
 
sbi
@Als I'm confused, too. Where do you sign in and see marked chats? I currently don't see any, and I only saw one hours earlier.
 
Als
@sbi: Maybe it showed me the same old one that you saw an hour ago, when i signed in now
it seems they get voted as spam or not spam?
 
sbi
@Als But that had been one since yesterday. We've had days where we had like three an hour!
 
Als
@sbi: Maybe I did'nt have enough rep earlier to be shown those, And i just peeked in only a couple of times in long time, and whenever i did i could see those, so perhaps i felt them coming too often
I could see one from something like hotnspicy or something today.
 
sbi
@Als I didn't see that, I think.
Maybe it was deleted while I was looking elsewhere and you just had the bad luck to run right into it.
 
Als
12:34 PM
@sbi: Perhaps, Could you just click "info" in the right hand side panel just above it shows presently online members
Then at top it shows them in a number alert format
it shows me 4 as for now
 
sbi
@Als Ah, there's a 4, but when I click on "show all", I only see one. It's one of those in a foreign language which often get flagged, so I didn't pay attention, but the user name is something hot and spicy, so it must be what you referred to.
 
@sbi My what?
 
Als
@sbi: Yes, that was the one i was referring to.
 
I'm almost done cleaning up the tabs!
 
Als
@CatPlusPlus: Which tabs are you cleaning?
 
12:38 PM
@Als Silver ones.
 
Als
@CatPlusPlus: That is not helping me understand anything more than when you said about cleaning them lol
@sbi: oh i see the hotspicy something user playing around in another room
 
12:53 PM
@Als Too many browser tabs, Firefox fails to cope.
 
Als
@CatPlusPlus: Still stuck with firefox are you? No Google Chrome?
 
Chrome does worse with mass tabs than Firefox
 
Als
It is atleast faster, I personally feel it more convenient
 
@Als You're a year or two too late with that kind of blanket statement
 
Als
@jalf: I will admit, I have not checked out firefox eversince I started using chrome So perhaps I maybe wrong, maybe firfox has improved much faster than chrome, I would'nt really know.
 
1:01 PM
FF4 was pretty much the "catch up with Chrome" version, and that was months ago
And for large numbers of tabs, not having a process for each kind of helps in terms of resource usage, and tab groubs make them a lot more manageable
 
@Als Chrome is my last choice for a browser.
Mostly because I don't count IE as a browser.
 
Als
@CatPlusPlus: Why? What bad it do you?
 
I don't like its architecture one bit.
 
certainly saves me from Flash crashing all the time
I like the idea that I can browse freely on one tab and not have to worry about the other tabs
 
Firefox isolates plugins, too.
 
1:06 PM
I haven't used Chrome for a while (and it bluescreened last I tried, which is pretty scary from a browser), but really, pretending that they're not both top-notch browsers is kind of silly these days
 
TBH, Flash more often decides to stop rendering altogether when hardware acceleration is turned on, rather than crash.
 
Als
As talks of you folks suggest, it looks like it is worth to give firfox a trial run.
 
I'd like to switch to a more light-weight browser, but it really has to support my Firefox workflow.
 
Als
@jalf: I have not seen it blue screened once since i have been using it. Maybe im just lucky!
 
@Als it's made huge strides, yes (no doubt thanks to Chrome breathing down its neck). Although if you're happy with your current browser, why bother
@Als more likely I was just unlucky. I'm not claiming it's a common problem or anything ;)
 
1:08 PM
The most common cause of bugchecks is faulty drivers. Second most common is faulty hardware. :P
 
well, this isn't like IE, where you'd desperately, desperately download any other browser
2
Chrome is a perfectly good browser
 
IE is not a browser, it's a browser downloader. :.
 
Als
@jalf: Yes, I am kind of always scared to replace something which is not broken and working..Golden rule of softwares if it works don't replace it :P
 
IE9 is tolerable. It does reasoanbly well compared to other browsers, it just doesn't have anything that makes it stand out.
 
I have a lot more confidence in the security of Chrome than IE
 
Als
1:12 PM
I am just happy with things working and not stalling.
but then I don't use it too heavily apart from for So and mails.
And the Silence here now is deafening..
 
working on my grammar
 
1:50 PM
Does anyone else regularly deal with the 'template constructor is not a copy/move constructor but participates in overload resolution' problem? (what a lousy name)
 
2:03 PM
no
what code generates that problem?
 
auto t = std::move(u);
or auto t = f(); really
Oh apparently it's only for copy construction.
That's confusing, my tests show the opposite behaviour of the rest of my code.
 
2:33 PM
ok, I decided to start again from scratch in yacc
now you can make endlessly nested namespaces
 
 
1 hour later…
Als
3:36 PM
Geez, some happy downvoter seems to be prowling SO C++ tag today.
 
The anti-fraud system will probably reverse those at the end of the day.
 
Als
No reasons and downvotes on every answer seems to be the order of the day. It is so frustrating, atleast a reason for downvote should be given or no one learns anything really.
@MartinhoFernandes: I wonder, Why would someone do that in the first place.
 
Huh... because they're jerks?
Or just kids.
 
Als
lol I do not know, who would invest the time and effort to do so.
 
4:02 PM
Is there anyway you can see who is making all the downvotes?
 
No.
Downvotes are anonymous.
There is an observable side-effect: the downvoter's rep lowers.
But finding them through that is not at very feasible.
 
It meakes sense that it would be anonymous, to unlink downvoting from it's social implications
 
On the other hand, drive-by down-voting is generally considered harmful and rude.
 
yeah
I don't believe I have ever downvoted before
 
If it happens repeatedly, like @Als said, it will be reversed by the anti-fraud system.
 
4:06 PM
I think I'll reserve that for dangerous or subtly misleading questions/answers
 
It has happened before.
 
Downvotes shouldn't be anonymous, really. You are supposed to leave a comment anyway.
 
I just took a -4 rep hit for answering my own question :(
I blame Jeff, for encouraging me.
 
Have a +.
 
4:14 PM
@MartinhoFernandes Yeah, that's ridiculous. The entire purpose for this site is that over time, it becomes a massive database for answers to programming questions.
 
And badges.
;)
 
I don't see how answering your own question is bad; in fact, I think it should be encouraged
 
It is.
 
It is encouraged.
It has been since ever.
It's been on the FAQ all the time.
 
Good - so why would anyone downvote you for that??
 
4:15 PM
They're jealous?
Thinking I'm farming rep, or something?
 
Yeah, the only thing I can think of is they are angry they couldn't answer the question first. I wish there was a way to weed out those people.
 
Stupidness will always prevail.
 
Als
As long as someone gives a reason for downvoting i dont feel disturbed by it.
An downvote with no reason et all helps no one learn nothing.
 
4:46 PM
-1
A: Should I use global variables?

DeadMGDo not ever use global variables. If you need an object of a type, then you pass it in, by reference if necessary.

still bummed I got downvoted repeatedly for this one
 
I'm going to downvote and flag you!
Kidding.
 
well, I get it, there are times to use global variables
but I don't really think that the OP needs to know about the finer points
the best thing for him to hear is "Don't use them."
 
I would remove the "ever".
It implies that there are no finer points.
 
if you don't know not to use them for a ScriptManager, then you're not really ready to discuss the finer points and are probably better off not knowing they exist
 
5:04 PM
ok
apparently, my yacc generator will only generate code for MSVC6
and generates files that depend on a header not included
 
?
Why only for MSVC6?
Does it generate project files?
 
well, it also supports 16-bit MSVC and Borland C++, so I'm guessing that it's just ancien
t
 
The last update on bison for Windows is from 2009.
Is that the one you're using?
 
no, another one
but I'm trying to use bison now and it fails to open a bunch of random files which are nothing to do with what I'm doing
I so wish I could just use Visual Studio for this
and then Bison promptly crashes
I think it can't deal with the spaces in "Program Files (x86)"
 
Likely.
Probably better to just go with c:\dev or something.
 
5:15 PM
right
so now I need a completely separate program to do the lexing
 
It's probably included.
flex.
 
nope, it's just yacc
flex, I could only find Linux source code
 
yeah, just went there
 
@DeadMG If memory serves, it has a makefile that was originally written for an old version of MSVC (2.0 or so) but it continues to work fine with newer versions of VC++.
 
5:27 PM
I am however completely unsure as to how this is supposed to work
using functions before declaring them, and it hasn't even defined all the constants it's trying to return
there's a declaration for an enum in the yacc produced file, but no header
guess I'll have to ... fix it up manually every time I re-compile?
 
No.
I think there should be a "y.tab.h" file somewhere or something.
 
there was an include statement for one
but there is most definitely no header file coming out of bison
 
You need to call it with -d to get y.tab.h
 
right
what's the point of that? the c file is useless without a header, you couldn't even maybe plug in a custom lexer
 
Don't know. I don't remember ever using yacc without lex.
 
5:35 PM
and Visual Studio
it shows all your files relative to the project in filters, but the #include directive takes filepaths relative to the actual project file
so if you have files somewhere else, you can't include them
 
Dammit. I'm all out of food.
The good news is that I won't have to suffer through my inexistent cooking skill again.
 
apparently
flex itself is also supposed to generate a header file, but that is missing
also concerned that it will only deal with char and not wchar_t
 
5:51 PM
Hmm, I only remember flex generating a lex.yy.c file.
 
it does, but you also need a header if you want to compile in C++
there's an option for compiling as C++, in which it produces a C++ file that has classes, virtual functions and stuff, and it's supposed to generate a header
but in fact does not
 
Hmm, I only used that for C. Can't help there.
 
it would be much easier to write my own, I think, but right now, I'm not entirely sure if I actually understand how to write a parser that doesn't suck
 
The only kind of parsers I can write by hand is recursive descent.
We had to do that regularly in our LP class.
 
I only ever wrote toy parsers before
I didn't define identifiers as not having to start with a number, so you could do 3 = 2+2 print(3) and get out 4
 
5:56 PM
In your toy parsers?
 
yes
still
at least if I use semicolons and curly brackets, it won't be tooo hard to find individual statements and definitions
 
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