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5:00 PM
Er, your function argument list goes (foo (bar (baz (baf)))). Admit it, you are writing a Lisp dialect.
 
@CatPlusPlus Not even close. His expression production is about the size of a complete Lisp grammar.
 
Also you can do (2+2 foo).
 
Lisp grammars are cool. They have sex-pressions.
 
And foo() foo() foo() foo() foo(), if I see correctly.
 
Only expressions require semicolons. That's a strange oddity.
 
Lispers argue that Lisp has no grammar, and is not parsed but executed.
 
Whatever. Lispers are crazy.
 
@Martinho: No, I changed that on purpose
so that you can't have empty catch blocks
 
The language I know that is closest to no grammar (i.e., total anarchy) is Perl.
 
Did I win? Did I win? Did I... oh, right, of course not.
 
5:06 PM
@DeadMG That's not an empty catch block I talked about. It's a catch-all.
 
@Martinho: Why? You don't have to do try {} catch();
@Martinho: No, I meant, you said that I could change { statement-list '}' for compound-statement
 
Perl grammar is start := random-gibberish *.
 
but I can't, because compound-statements can be empty, and statement-lists can't
 
@MartinhoFernandes Brainfuck. TECO. Though it's difficult, it is possible to come up with a string of characters PERL won't accept. Brainfuck will accept anything (but ignore all but a half dozen characters). Its only syntactical requirement (like Lisp's) is balanced braces. TECO doesn't have even that. A standard challenge in places where TECO was used was to explain what it would do when (for example) you entered your name.
 
5:09 PM
I was kidding.
BrainFuck will accept almost every string, as long as [ and ] are balanced.
I think Whitespace is similar.
I'll have to look up TECO.
 
@MartinhoFernandes I'm pretty sure you can eliminate the "almost" from that.
 
right
@JerryCoffin: Do you think that I should mandate non-empty catch blocks?
 
@JerryCoffin Is TECO the Emacs predecessor?
 
@MartinhoFernandes Oh geeze -- I shouldn't have mentioned it. I just want to disclaim any responsibility for emotional or mental damage you may suffer... :-)
@MartinhoFernandes Sort of -- EMACS started out as a set of TECO macros.
 
Ok, I think I have encountered its Jargon File entry before.
I'll restrain from installing it.
 
5:12 PM
@MartinhoFernandes Oh, thank god.
 
so let me see
what I'm missing
variadics, for, while, do-while
 
Thank god for chat editing. I have the ability to fix stupid typos I shouldn't make in the first place.
 
@DeadMG Probably. What exactly do you expect an empty catch expression to accomplish?
 
nothing
that's why I think it should be banned
 
Nothing as in ignoring an exception?
 
5:14 PM
@DeadMG If you really can't think of any use for it, then banning is probably reasonable.
 
Whitespace accepts absolutely anything, I think.
 
exceptions should never be ignored
 
Btw, are you violating your mantra that the language should not dictate how you use it?
;)
 
if you have an exception you can ignore, then an exception was the wrong design
ooooh
good one
oh, switch-case
 
I sometimes use empty catch blocks.
 
5:15 PM
and... goto
 
So if I'm an incompetent library writer and I let an undocumented type be thrown the users are hosed?
 
@LucDanton: That's what I have checked exceptions, and catch-all, for
 
@LucDanton Shame on you.
 
I actually don't have either of those in the grammar right now, but they will be
 
Checked exceptions? I'm curious to see how you plan to get them right.
 
5:17 PM
That makes sense, ok (well the catch-all, I won't mention the other thing)
 
So, no ignoring exceptions but catch-all is a-okay? :P
 
Without inheritance, it might be doable. But I'm not sure.
 
I'm going to actually smack checked exceptions a lot harder than C++ ever did
like, in C++, then throw specifiers weren't always part of the type
but in "DeadMG++", they're as hard a rule as const, and violating them is Undefined Behaviourâ„¢
 
Sounds a lot like Java. Oh noes the horror.
 
oh, I also don't have function types in my grammar
nah
 
5:18 PM
Horror++.
 
Java has problems because they force everyone to use them
whereas I will default to throw-anything
 
@DeadMG What's the default spec, e.g. void()?
Well that was fast
 
So, they're useless?
 
I'm confuzzled.
 
no
for example, on destructors, then they are enforced as no-throw
 
5:19 PM
And if I throw there?
 
@MartinhoFernandes As I recall, he has no TUs/separate translation. That makes the problem a lot easier (as in "possible") to handle well.
 
well, you will get a compile-time error
 
Good.
 
@DeadMG Ewww, I don't like that at all though. IMO, that was one of the biggest mistakes the C++ committee made.
 
What about void f() throw E; void g() { f(); }?
 
5:20 PM
@Jerry: What?
@Martinho: Well, for g(), you didn't specify any exception specs, so it's throw(...) by default
 
So, useless.
Only nothrow is useful.
 
@DeadMG The default to "throw anything".
 
well
after seeing Java's "throw-nothing", then I think it's distinctly better than that
alternatively, I could have "throws-inferred"?
 
That's practically the same as throws anything.
 
no, it isn't
 
5:22 PM
Because the compiler does not enforce anything. It actually condones with you not doing anything.
 
const is optional
I don't see why checked exceptions should not also be optional
 
But once you add const, it stops being optional.
Take my f() and g() example above.
g() just ignores f()'s specification.
 
and once you come up to a place where not throwing or limiting a throw spec is not optional
for example, on a virtual function, or across a DLL or pre-compiled boundary
or in a destructor
 
The thing Java gets wrong with checked exceptions is that you have to deal with them at every level from throwing to really using them. What you want is to ensure that the exception is caught somewhere, but not require every layer to explicitly deal with it.
 
@JerryCoffin That would be nice.
 
5:25 PM
that's what I think that throws(inferred) could do
if you said main is throw() like destructors
 
You need a way to tell what a boundary is, though.
Especially library boundaries.
 
well, that's easy
 
All the public stuffs?
 
That's where lack of separate compilation helps: it ensures that the compiler can see all the source code, and see that everything that's thrown is caught somewhere. With separate compilation, you can really only do that at link time (and with Java's run-time linking, that would mean at run-time without its current requirement or something similar).
 
"Any place where I do not have the source code for the call."
 
5:26 PM
Seems fuzzy.
 
not really
throw specifiers are, fundamentally, the same as const
you're just dealing with a different code semantic
 
What about a public library::f() throw(infer) that public library::g() throw(infer) calls?
Where would it be enforced?
 
well, either library says that f() doesn't throw anything, or it doesn't
 
And with inference?
 
when you infer throws, then they are inferred at compile-time
so when library::f() is compiled, then throw(infer) will become something solid
 
5:29 PM
Hmm, seems nice.
 
I'm actually going to do the same thing for const, you can infer it
 
Except that the API is a bit brittle.
 
What's the default again for void() (excluding special cases i.e. main & destructors)? Throw anything?
 
If I change inner details that end up throwing something that it didn't before...
 
then you've broken the users of your class
 
5:31 PM
Duh. Stupid me.
 
it's better that I catch that now at compile-time than at run-time
@LucDanton: I'm definitely thinking of throw(infer) now
 
The chat is interesting but the bus won't wait. See ya later.
 
Bye.
 
bye
 
@DeadMG Are return types also automatically inferred? That would add some consistency to the 'normal return' and 'exceptional' code path specifications.
 
5:33 PM
yes
if all your return paths return the same value, then you can indeed have them inferred
and in addition, you can infer argument types to
 
So first you write your library, then the day you want a stable API you pick the argument/return/throw types and work from the boundary up to tighten up the types.
 
well, since the compiler infers them when you compile, there's no need to pick them
they are what they are
 
Yeah I was thinking in terms of TU/modules/binary compatibility.
 
infact, because of my Clevarâ„¢ work on compile-time functions being real functions, I think that I can even ship inferring code
@Luc: I don't have TUs, or even explicit modules, so you can forget about those
 
@DeadMG I know. I don't think I'm going to be a user. I was just thinking (out loud, and slowly) about the design.
 
5:36 PM
well
one of the main ways I'm hoping to attract attention is not just the new compile-time magic you can do, but that I can include C++ headers
if I do my preprocessing implementation that I'm thinking of using
that would give me a significant leg up from the compatibility stand-point compared to languages like D
 
Those days I figure stuff like checked exceptions are better served with external tools & AOP-style hook points than a first-class language features though.
 
oh, I think that you might be able to implement them as a library in DeadMG++
const too
 
const<T>?
checked<void(), std::bad_alloc>?
 
I'd need to extend the grammar
but yes, you could
 
are careers 2.0 invites automated?
 
5:45 PM
Hey @sbi, how's the weather there?
 
Hi
 
sbi
@JerryCoffin The weather is pretty good at any time on some side of the island. If it's cloudy here, we just go swimming to some other side.
 
Hi @kbok
@sbi Sounds rough. I mean, having to travel for 15 minutes to go swimming seems pretty unfair... :-)
 
sbi
@JerryCoffin Actually, since this is a (third of a) volcano rim, all the roads (except for one tunnel) have to wind around a 1000m high mountain, so some of the traveling takes quite some time.
 
@sbi Ah geeze -- that does sound rough! But wait, since when is 1000m a "high mountain"? Around here we call a 4300+ meter mountain "the hill".
 
5:55 PM
If the rest of the geography is either the sea or beaches, I can understand why it's called a mountain.
 
@LucDanton Fair point.
 
@MartinhoFernandes check this area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/23539/…
 
Is msysgit the only git client on windows ?
 
sbi
@JerryCoffin Well, this mountain starts behind the house in a 1000m high vertical wall. If you look the other side, it's just a few meters down to the ocean.
Anyway, gotta go now, dinner's ready.
 
@MartinhoFernandes It needs 2 extra followers to move to the next phase. Do you know of someone?
 
6:07 PM
Never realized there were proposals for programming-oriented sites in a given language.
Gah! Area 51 is another blackhole of the Internet, pulling you gently towards it and greatly affecting spacetime with its mass.
 
I just hope this pt.stackoverflow.com lifts off
there isn't much quality programming content on the internet (in portuguese)
 
Is there any precedent? i.e. another similar proposal?
 
I'm not sure
 
6:28 PM
I'm back.
@hexa I don't think I have time to waste on both SO and SO.pt, but I hit the "Follow" button.
 
@MartinhoFernandes That should be enough :P
 
I agree that quality programming content in Portuguese is pretty scarce.
A while back I considered following the "Portuguese Language Usage" proposal, but I find it weird to have questions in English on such a site.
 
@MartinhoFernandes Did you really hit "follow" there? You should have been the 60th
 
Yes, it turned into "Unfollow" now.
 
Weird, on the right doesnt show you in the recent followers
 
6:36 PM
You know what, sometimes I find Brazilian Portuguese really hard to understand. I can't parse some of the example questions :(
 
Really? I like the european portuguese, it is often more clear than brazilian pt
 
sbi
@LucDanton Not quite, I think, but there is, for example, german.stackexchange.com, japanese.stackexchange.com, and, somewhat more distantly related, judaism.stackexchange.com.
 
@sbi I was aware of (most of) them, but the idea of a SO-like site surprised me.
 
It would be great if it was pt.stackoverflow.com instead of pt.stackexchange.com, but i doubt it is going to be like that, at least in the start
 
Take for example: "Qual combinação funciona melhor para um cadastro empresarial sem grandes demandas: [linguagem1] e [Bd1] ou [linguagem2] e [Bd2] ?" I read this as "What combination works better for an enterprise criminal record without great quests?"
 
sbi
6:43 PM
@hexa @Martinho These statements seem to point into the same direction, if I may say so. :)
 
Makes no sense at all.
 
sbi
@MartinhoFernandes To me neither. But then I don't speak Portuguese. :)
 
@MartinhoFernandes what question is confusing you?
 
I can parse until 'cadastro'!
 
The one I mentioned above.
 
6:45 PM
I don't speak Portuguese (French is my first language), and I could actually manage to understand the first few words. Then that "cadastro" word threw me off.
 
@LucDanton That's "criminal record".
 
@MartinhoFernandes That does make the question hilarious.
 
@MartinhoFernandes actually, 'cadastro' in portuguese br, means record
 
Yeah, I got that after some searching.
 
what about those 'quests' though?
 
6:47 PM
It's "demandas".
 
Well I don't think there are many quests for enterprisey records.
 
I think the intended meaning was "without much trouble".
Or "without many requirements".
 
the meaning is something along: "with low volume"
 
Oh, so "demandas" is queries, or requests?
 
in some situations, yes. A "demanda" is a need, something someone wants.
 
6:52 PM
This is why I don't believe the Orthographic Agreement is a good idea.
Doesn't matter if we write the same way. We don't even use the same words.
 
yeah, there are some pretty different "same word different meanings"
like, the word used for a line (as in a line in a cashier) in European portuguese is the word we use for "homosexual" in pt-br
 
Yeah, that's a bit embarassing.
Oh figured out why my "Follow" wasn't working.
Had to confirm my e-mail.
 
nice, so we have the 60 it needs to go the next phase
you were the 60th one, do you feel special?
 
Not at all.
If this gets to beta, I'm not sure I'll be very active.
 
I'm not sure either, but I saw it needed 3 more so I decided to give it a push
who knows, we might be surprised
 
7:04 PM
Right now, I'm only active on two sites: Stack Overflow and Science Fiction and Fantasy. And not very much.
Over the past three days I collected a whooping -1 rep at SO.
 
I replied to a question drunk on friday
and it got me +95 rep
i was surprised
 
You expected more?
 
no, way less.
specially because it took me so long to answer
 
Yesterday someone posted a question with a note asking for some slack because he was high on marijuana.
 
for real? lol
do you have a link? or was it deleted?
 
7:06 PM
I linked it here, it's somewhere in the transcript.
 
@MartinhoFernandes I saw it. Then there was a debate about programming while being high.
It was, well, suprising.
 
@MartinhoFernandes Do you have the link to that question? Or was it deleted?
 
@MartinhoFernandes If the site is still not in the commitment phase, then it has a loong way towards beta.
 
It's about to enter commitment now.
I'll dredge up the link, after popular demand :(
 
I think [crypto.se] is launching soon, I'll finally get that shiny shiny badge.
 
7:10 PM
is it your proposal?
 
Yeah, not launched yet.
 
@cat you get a badge for participating in the beta ?
 
No, but it's thus far the only one I'm interested in, from not-yet-launched sites (I also peek at gamedev and gaming sometimes).
 
-3
Q: Is it possible to extend more then one abstract class?

SSpokeIs it possible to extend more then one abstract class? I'm trying to convert the java bytecode library in C# I figured out in the original java bytecode library it extended 2 interfaces or in my case abstract class (because it has variables). Doesn't seem to work in C#... class JClassParser :...

 
Well, that and security one.
 
7:13 PM
Dammit, the dinner. I'm already late. Dammit, dammit, dammit. Bye.
 
@MartinhoFernandes He rolled back the "then"->"than" editing.
 
7:39 PM
@MartinhoFernandes weed, lol
 
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: The INTERCAL help desk. For polite people.
 
7:52 PM
'Afternoon.
 
It is.
 
Nope.
 
PLEASE
 
8:04 PM
Program too polite.
 
meh topic, tbh
hmmm
I built my grammar to do things like
int[6]*[6]***[5]
 
My eyes.
 
yeah
defines an array of five pointers to pointers to pointers to an array of six pointers to an array of six integers
or someshit like that
at least I managed to change it so that they could be const and that you grammatically can't mix them with reference specifiers
previously you could have done
int[6]*[6]&&&&*[6][6][5]*&
 
8:19 PM
*Headdesk*
 
is your language called DeadME?
 
lol
 
Ba-dum-tss.
 
oh, lambdas
I'm missing lambdas
 
Hmm. *Test*
 
8:20 PM
Definitely.
 
Oh good, it supports escape slashes.
 
oh and default arguments
and enums
holy shit, there's a lot in here
 
Xeo
Seems like you're missing half the language?
 
hey
it's hard to build a grammar from scratch and remember to put everything in
 
Xeo
Make a list :P
 
8:23 PM
Are you actually implementing a compiler?
 
well
I'm going to keep implementing until I can't
that's not necessarily the same :P
 
why don't you "just" translate your language to c++ and then compile it?
 
that's what I'm doing
 
That's cool. I'd like to design a language someday, but compilation baffles me.
 
but in order to translate it, you will have to lex it, parse it, etc, for which you must define a grammar
which is what I'm doing right now
 
8:24 PM
what's your motivation again?
 
also, grammatically, currently you can do some stupid stuff
 
besides "c++ sux"?
 
namespace Y { const int; }
 
Oh dear.
 
well, I have a whole list of things I want to add
 
8:25 PM
@hexa Don't people ever do things for the hell of it anymore? :P
 
that list gets longer as I add more things, and shorter as I forget about them
but I want to stop forgetting about them and start adding them
 
I should learn x86 assembly.
And HTML.
 
I think LLVM IR might be a good thing to learn too.
 
@Maxpm I guess, but more often than not ppl have a particular problem they want to solve
 
Why is that?
 
8:27 PM
Because LLVM is becoming more and more interesting.
 
and more and more popular
I was going to use LLVM, but turned it down eventually so that I could work more directly with including existing C++ code, for easier migration
ok
at namespace scope, you can only do shit that makes new shit, and access modifiers
 
"shit that makes new shit". Is that a technical term?
 
I should make them separate
yes
 
so you want to shit everywhere?
 
Recursive shitting.
Perhaps implementing it as an interpreted language would be easier.
 
8:32 PM
no, it would absolutely destroy my performance
the only way that I'm going to remain even remotely competitively performant is by compiling the language ahead of time and being very aggressive with caching the results
 
@DeadMG Good call. The ability to shit quickly is of utmost importance! :-)
 
How about moving to a JIT shitting model?
 
And no, I'm not actually saying anything against compiling -- it just tweaked my twisted sense of humor.
 
@JerryCoffin: One of the things that you said about making as much grammatically illegal as possible instead of semantically illegal is doing good for me, though
 
@EtiennedeMartel I believe using "shit" along with "JIT" is redundant.
 
8:36 PM
I like the conversation. Very classy.
 
@JerryCoffin Indeed. But I like my redundancy.
 
@Collecter We got class up the ass, man!
 
defining grammar is harder than I thought
plus, I keep forgetting things
 
@JerryCoffin That you do.
 
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: The INTERCAL help desk. For polite people. And shit.
 
8:37 PM
@DeadMG There's a reason people who do it well get all the chicks... :-)
 
what, define grammars?
 
@DeadMG Yup.
 
@JerryCoffin because they have money to buy KFC? All the chicks are sold there
 
@Collecter Nah -- Popeye's. The real shit!
 
I feel like making an interpreter that just reads in source code at runtime.
 
8:39 PM
@JerryCoffin How could I have been so blind!
 
Maybe it's about time we steered the conversation back toward sex.
 
lol
 
As long as the shit isnt present
Work is over, later.
 
@Collecter Hmm...only in my son's diaper pail. G'night.
 
remember what you said earlier about my existing grammar accepting things like "2 + 2 = 17"?
the first parser I ever wrote actually did accept that
actually, I think I had 3 = 2 +2
so you could do print(3) and get out 4
 
8:48 PM
.________.
 
@DeadMG Some early Fortran compilers allowed things almost like that. All function parameters were passed by reference, so passing a literal like`4` to a function could produce the same effect..
 
#define true false
 
yeah, I've heard of that
 
That's horrendous.
 
I think I need to work this again
 
8:50 PM
@Maxpm Hmm...if you're going to do that, you could also help your users save memory:
#define struct union
 
@JerryCoffin How considerate of you!
You know, come to think of it, I don't think I ever actually use the true and false keywords.
I always just return condition;.
 
@JerryCoffin: That won't work
 
if you define any non-POD structs, the compiler will barf
 
@DeadMG Yes -- that's from the C days...
 
8:53 PM
@EtiennedeMartel The #ifndef _DEBUG is just plain evil.
 
@Maxpm Yes, but that's the whole idea.
 
9:05 PM
i think i'd take it personally if someone did that type of stuff on a code base i was working on
 
sbi
OK, enough looking at scary code that has more flags and confused states than the UN. Done for the day.
 
@hexa Those things would make a pretty violent commit-and-run.
 
sbi
#BestBugFoundThisWeek - RAND used instead of ROUND and been in production for 4 years
 
i am looking at BASIC code
very bad coding
its driving me nuts
 
Then stop looking at it.
 
9:07 PM
I need to fix it
it's microcontroller code
for one of our products
 
Ouch.
GL HF.
 
just take a look at this pastebin.com/2447XW22
compare the IFs, see what I am talking about
 
Woa.
That would make an excellent submission for The Daily WTF.
I assume it's not the only ugly part of the codebase?
 
you assume correctly :(
this guy, every function he writes, he doesnt pass parameters or return any value
 
I can't quite grok it
what's going on?
 
9:13 PM
its all done with global vars
 
Must be an asm programmer.
 
no, i know the guy. he is a BASIC programmer and that's it
well, im going home. later
 
See ya.
 

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