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1:02 PM
@thecoshman Could be quadratic. I lack the stats knowledge to test that though.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes erm... but that still be exponential wouldn't it... as in it grows at an accelerating rate
 
I don't know recent Qt terribly well, but this answer of mine got some flak for violating the spirit of Qt apparently. Is there no way around lots of raw pointers in Qt?
 
Exponential is not the same as accelerating.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes o_0
I was reading that @Kerrek ¬_¬
 
1:05 PM
@KerrekSB that is the spirit of Qt
 
@thecoshman A quadratic also grows at an accelerating rate. The speed of x^2 at x is 2x, which grows (with rate 2).
 
@KerrekSB what's up with the top-voted answer?
 
@thecoshman It's the difference between Θ(2^x) and Θ(x^2).
 
raw pointers and icky register-with-parent-style lifetime management
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I see... I think...
 
1:07 PM
(Sorry for the confuddled edit, I wasn't quite thinking straight)
@keithlayne No idea
@jalf And I used to think of Qt so highly
Is there a Qt++11?
You know, where the fundamental unit is a unique-pointer, and unicode is done via char32_t?
 
shouldn't it be C+=11 ...
 
new should return a unique_ptr anyway.
A bit late for that now.
 
not really. Afaik, they're going to add some c++11 support in Qt5 (especially unicode stuff), but don't count on seeing a change to the pointer stuff
 
@jalf Thanks for the comment -- is the "ownership" thing implemented by pointers to parents?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes My equivalent does!
 
1:10 PM
I know, I asked you before.
 
@KerrekSB qt seems anti-c++11
 
oh yeah
 
Welcome to C++ where all the third-party libraries are not very C++-y.
6
(Boost is like, second-party.)
 
@KerrekSB yup. You create a QObject, and in its constructor, you give it a (raw) pointer to a parent
the parent will then call delete on your object
 
@keithlayne It seems a little saddening, that's true
 
1:11 PM
Damn, you edited it!
 
@jalf What if I don't want my objects deleted! Get your finger out of my object!
 
the parent parameter is optional, and you can set it to null to handle lifetime yourself
 
@jalf Ah, I see. Let me read up on QObject for a minute
 
it seems like they see the new language / standard library features as competing with what they offer
 
@keithlayne actually, they are going to adopt some of the C++11 features. Just not much of the library, I believe
 
1:14 PM
It'd be a bit silly to not adopt at least move semantics.
 
I went to their dev conference a month or so ago, and there were a few questions about Qt vs C++11, and it seemed like it was definitely on their radar, or at least the core langauge features are
they mentioned using lambdas, but I don't know if that's just internally, or if it's going to be exposed in their API as well in any way
they were planning on something with user-defined literals too, iirc
and unicode strings
 
@jalf should be for free for stl-compliant stuff, right?
 
If they already expose stuff taking functions, they already support lambdas.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I don't think they do :(
 
1:16 PM
their threading API is much like Java: derive a class from QThread, and override its run function or something
 
@jalf But UDLs won't be supported in VS11.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes oh right, I wonder what they were talking about then. I only caught half of it :)
 
UDLs are a cool feature, but I wonder how much they'll be actually used when supported
 
The whole QObject thing definitely has a sense of "Let's be like Java"...
 
I'm already using them.
 
1:17 PM
Or Quava, maybe.
 
no need to brag
 
For durations!
 
@RMartinhoFernandes 1_second?
 
It's a natural conclusion really. The standard library already has this unit things in there, it just lacks a neat way of constructing stuff with it.
 
@KerrekSB yeah, definitely
 
1:18 PM
@LucDanton I settled for 1_sec.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes How does it have a unit thing? It has fractions, but those are dimensionless.
 
@KerrekSB std::chrono::nanoseconds, etc.
 
@jalf So, "when you delete an object, it deregisters itself from the parent"... does everyone have loads of pointers to everyone else?
@RMartinhoFernandes OK, so we have "time" units. That's a far cry from generic "unit" support.
 
I'm pretty sure nanoseconds weren't invented yet in the '50s
 
@KerrekSB I didn't say that!
 
1:19 PM
Anyway, why not just measure everything in natural units?
 
I was purposedly vague: "unit things".
 
man
Visual Studio seems to have killed some of my parser header changes
 
@DeadMG "man page not found"
 
:(
 
@KerrekSB What natural units?
 
1:20 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes You know, c = G = 1 etc
 
You can do that.
 
So you can measure distance and time in the same unit. That's useful.
 
std::duration<double, appropriate_ratio>.
 
I'll see you in two meters.
 
@KerrekSB That's not how natural units work >:(.
 
1:23 PM
@LucDanton Well, there's a bit more to it...
@LucDanton "I'll see you in 500000"?
(That's a bit short, though.)
 
@KerrekSB yup
 
AFAICT There's more than one system of natural units.
 
@KerrekSB You'll never get that in a short
 
You'd need to at least disambiguate what system that is.
 
Sorry, have had this sort of thing drilled into my head. I make my equations dimensionally homogeneous!
 
1:24 PM
@rvalue You would, in hell++.
 
@Rma you're an artificial unit, you wouldn't understand
 
@LucDanton That's not a drill, that's a pure necessity of being an... "equation"
@rvalue In natural units, one bit is actually several million bits wide.
 
So, that would be "I'll see you in 500000 Stoney times" or "I'll see you in 500000 Planck times".
 
@LucDanton The real art is to make them dimension-*less*, non?
 
I don't see a big advantage.
("Stoney times" sounds fun.)
 
1:26 PM
@KerrekSB Having both sides dimensionless makes the equation still homogeneous.
 
@LucDanton Can't argue with that :-)
 
Also, that's the difference between a quotient and a ratio! That's another drill.
 
In my memory, "stoney times" exhibit relativistic effects...major time dilation
 
@RMartinhoFernandes In Stoney times everything goes soo slow dude...
 
Aren't Planck time units hetrogenous?
 
1:27 PM
Hey, this Qt object model for automatic objects sounds terrible. You have tons of redundant pointer deregistrations.
 
Maybe they're bi.
@KerrekSB It's Java, who cares. Oh, wait...
2
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Maybe "hell++" would be a good name for a language developed by someone introducing himself as @DeadMG?
 
@sbi lol. No. Hell++ is what I call an hypothetical implementation of C++ that is a nightmare for those who use non-conforming things, or depend on implementation-dependent stuff, or use UB that "works".
 
sbi
Also, should @DeadMG ever have a child, he'd be a deady. Sheepish grin.
 
1:32 PM
harhar
given my disposition, I find it unlikely, so you can sleep easy at night
 
@DeadMG having children. That's a weird thought.
 
it's not high on my list of priorities
 
sbi
White trash is such a hateful phrase. I prefer to say "Non-recyclable Caucasian"
 
Where is CHAR_BIT?
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes In some C header. (3rd hit at google.)
 
1:37 PM
C++ second-best security
eat that C
 
sbi
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: Only COBOL is safer than C++. [c++] [c++11] [c++-faq]
:)
 
I can almost hear the party in the COBOL room
 
what's really great is that C++ was rated more secure than Java
so much for the virtual machine making everything great and safe
 
sbi
@awoodland What, a party thrown by those 1.6 old men over there?
 
It seems though that those results roughly reflect the experience of the programmers using each language
 
1:39 PM
@DeadMG You can't fix programmers with VMs.
 
indeed
 
sbi
@awoodland That's what I thought the moment I saw this.
 
so if you're > 60 and still programming odds are you a) know COBOL and b) have made every mistake under the sun already in your career
 
go COBOL, it's your birthday
 
sbi
I suppose had this study been done 15 years ago, when all those dummy programmers were still working in "C/C++", C++ would have come out a lot worse.
 
1:40 PM
Well, from the looks of it, there's still a lot of those.
 
sbi
@awoodland Wouldn't a) somehow imply b)? :)
@RMartinhoFernandes Those 60 year olds?
 
hey, I'm sure that there are mistakes other than using COBOL
like using MUMPS or something
 
@sbi No, the dummy C/C++ programmers.
 
ALGOL-68 FTW
 
sbi
Mumps (epidemic parotitis) is a viral disease of the human species, caused by the mumps virus. Before the development of vaccination and the introduction of a vaccine, it was a common childhood disease worldwide. It is still a significant threat to health in the third world, and outbreaks still occur sporadically in developed countries. Painful swelling of the salivary glands (classically the parotid gland) is the most typical presentation. The disease is generally self-limiting, running its course before receding, with no specific treatment apart from controlling the symptoms with pai...
 
1:42 PM
no, MUMPS is an environment
I think there were some postings about it on TDWTF or something?
 
sbi
@DeadMG For the virus to thrive in, no doubt?
 
by the look of the picture, a shitty one
 
actually, I think it was for hospitals :P
 
the company a relative of mine works for has some custom in house language their CEO wrote and everyone is scared to tell him sucks. I'm pretty sure he reads TDWTF as a "best practice book"
 
1:42 PM
it was where every variable was database-backed
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Ah. But they are now hacking Java, apparently. :)
 
my flatmate had mumps recently. It made him look like Quagmire from family guy
 
MUMPS (Massachusetts General Hospital Utility Multi-Programming System), or alternatively M, is a programming language created in the late 1960s, originally for use in the healthcare industry. It was designed for the production of multi-user database-driven applications. It predates C and most other popular languages in current usage, and has very different syntax and terminology. It was largely adopted during the 1970s and early 1980s in healthcare and financial information systems/databases, and continues to be used by many of the same clients today. It is currently used in electron...
 
giggity-giggity, giggity-goo
 
sbi
@KerrekSB Are you @DeadMG's puppy?
 
1:44 PM
@sbi Not last time I checked...
 
> the polymorphism is bonus...
 
Oh, WET = Write Everything Twice. Neato.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Can your repeat that?
 
@keithlayne "Something like enum, but with classes."
 
@sbi Haha, nice try.
 
1:45 PM
IF IF=THEN DO THEN
now that is win code
 
Keywordless languages FTW.
 
I assume that you have laws in Europe like we do that help keep dinosaurs like MUMPS around, yes?
 
@keithlayne what laws would that be?
we have newspapers which report nonsense about MMR vaccines "in the interests of balance"
 
What's MMR?
 
(at least in the UK)
measles, mumps & rubella
 
1:48 PM
measles, mumps, and rubella
it's a triple vaccine
it was widely distributed to stamp out those diseases
then some whackjob spread that it caused autism with no evidence
 
Ah, we just call that "triple vaccine" here.
 
sbi
@awoodland Must be something about keeping the 3rd world as poor as possible. That is where mumps thrives, after all.
 
so we pulled the triple vaccine for no reason
now those diseases are making a comeback
 
Oh, you guys are stupid as heck.
 
In the US we have HIPPA which has nothing to do with insurance in practice. It creates a lot of fear about violating privacy and misunderstandings about security.
 
1:49 PM
Sorry for the bluntness.
 
lol
 
@DeadMG triple vaccine still exits and is doing better than it was
 
oh yeah
 
but parents seem to believe Steven Seagal will fix it all for them like he does in that film with the flowers
 
But not having mandatory vaccination plans is silly.
 
1:50 PM
We did
it was pulled because of the autism link
 
You should be incarcerated if you don't vaccinate yourself and your kin.
 
if it really did cause autism, then we would have saved a bunch of people from becoming autistic
 
@awoodland let's not talk bad about Steven Segal...he's a badass
 
but it turns out the studies which showed a link were utter garbage
 
@keithlayne he is a badass immunologist and law man
 
1:51 PM
Speaking of which, I need to take an antitethanic shot. Like, six months ago.
I keep forgetting that crap.
 
MMR has the same statistics as Sex Panther?
 
eh
 
sbi
I grew up with mandatory vaccination. I now live in a country where I can decide whether I want my kids vaccinated or not. I prefer the latter.
 
I was going to have a TB vaccination, then it turned out I didn't need it
 
@sbi Why is that?
 
1:52 PM
here people are checked for TB routinely, but few are vaccinated I think
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes That referring to what?
 
TB = tuberculosis?
 
yes
 
@sbi Why do you prefer the latter? Which latter, btw, "live in a country with vaccination choice" or "not vaccinate your kids"?
 
yeah
 
sbi
1:54 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes I'm pro-choice. :)
 
Tuberculosis is the #1 killer in Africa. It has surpassed AIDS.
 
it's like antibiotics...most people are at one extreme or the other regarding their use on kids
@RMartinhoFernandes that is crazy, just thinking about africa can give you AIDS
 
eh
 
@sbi Ok, can I ask why now?
 
I'd be surprised if other Africans weren't a pretty major source of death
 
1:55 PM
I shouldn't be laughing.
 
the trouble with vaccination programs is you need herd immunity for there to be any point having them in a population as a whole
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Are you really asking why I prefer to make my own desicions??
 
so making it "optional" loses that
 
on the plus side I'm fully vaccinated against Anthrax. Can't stand that music.
 
No idea what you're talking about.
 
1:56 PM
well
 
Maybe I don't want to know.
 
if we want to stamp out measles, then there's no way to achieve that except mass vaccination, a'la smallpox
 
here you can actually make a lot of money donating plasma if you have the anthrax vaccine
 
It is possible to mathematically model the progress of most infectious diseases to discover the likely outcome of an epidemic or to help manage them by vaccination. This article uses some basic assumptions and some simple mathematics to find parameters for various infectious diseases and to use those parameters to make useful calculations about the effects of a mass vaccination programme. History Early pioneers in infectious disease modelling were William Hamer and Ronald Ross, who in the early twentieth century applied the law of mass action to explain epidemic behaviour. Lowell Reed and...
 
@DeadMG But that will be like killing off endangered species!
Poor things.
 
1:58 PM
meh
I've got no problem with eradicating bacterium
there's a shitton more where they came from
 
Yeah, I bet they said the same about dodos.
 
hello
 
there are plenty in the Java room
 
been playing around with ViewMapOfFile and it's companions
seems like you can just write to the memory returned through the pointer which this function returns
 
the risk of eradicating diseases is that they interact importantly in some as yet unknown part of the eco system
 
2:02 PM
which seems awkward to me
 
Fuck the ecosystem. We decide who lives or dies.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes didn't know you were american
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I don't think it's possibly to reply to that without sounding like a hippy
but we are part of the eco-system, not independent from it
 
@awoodland I think hippie would be pretty hard for you to pull off. I could be wrong.
 
Xeo
2:05 PM
> By suggesting to remove the parenthesis in this tip by using a macro I will become the most hated person of the day. – user331471 1 min ago
 
Interesting question (pity, there's the weird "no boost" requirement).
1
Q: How to remove (non-intrusive) smart pointers from a cache when there are no more references?

dawnBecause of my noob reputation, I cannot reply to this Thread, in specific the accepted answer: I never used boost::intrusive smart pointers, but if you would use shared_ptr smart pointers, you could use weak_ptr objects for your cache. Those weak_ptr pointers do not count as a reference...

 
@awoodland unless you're hiding a pony tail in that picture
 
@keithlayne I might be hiding sandals though
 
:)
shoes are overrated
 
2:25 PM
1
Q: addition instead of subtraction in Kahan algorithm

FredOverflowThis is the Kahan summation algorithm from Wikipedia: function KahanSum(input) var sum = 0.0 var c = 0.0 for i = 1 to input.length do y = input[i] - c // why subtraction? t = sum + y c = (t - sum) - y sum = t return sum Is there a specific rea...

interesting question
I don't know the answer, but would be interesting to know
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I have a feeling that that's an instance of "You're Trying The Wrong Thing", but I'm not sure.
 
@KerrekSB I can't see why it would be wrong. I don't think #2 is really a problem, though.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Whatever the OP is "caching" might be awkwardly designed. It's hard to tell without context.
 
my solution in a similar case was add an explicit LRU policy and have shared_ptr
which actually made way more sense for my real problem anyway
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes About a week before the estimated date of birth of one of my girls, one of her brothers got chicken pox. Her mother was diagnosed as not having high enough an immunity. We were informed that 15-25% of fetuses infected with varicella so close before birth die (and don't ask about the rest of them).
So we went on a 24hr trip through hell, phoning with half a dozen prestigious doctors from all over Germany, resulting in 1.5 as many opinions as doctors spoken to, with opinions ranging from prevent the birth for as long as possible and at all cost! to cause the birth ASAP and at all cost! — and that's just one degree of freedom in the decision space we're talking about.
In fact, several of those luminaries, when told about the opposite recommendation by their colleagues, threatened to call them right away and tell them that they were wrong. (If it hadn't been so serious an issue, this would have been good comedy.)
In the end it was as it is with all complicated medical questions: You try to be informed as good as possible by gathering as many opinions as you can get, and then you just have to make the decision on your own. In our case, we isolated the boy (friends took him in), and decided for a highly-concentrated antibody shot for the mother (for which her insurance payed the price of a small car) and another one for the girl, after she was born a few days later.
The morale? You cannot simply believe what a bunch of doctors tell you. You have to weigh their differing opinions against each other and against your own experience, and you have to make your own decisions.
 
2:35 PM
@sbi Oh, that "Maybe I don't want to know" was about keith's "Anthrax music" thing.
You didn't have to explain yourself if you didn't want to.
 
Xeo
Hm
 
@sbi "ranging from prevent the birth for as long as possible and at all cost! to cause the birth ASAP and at all cost! " Wtf?
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Ah. I was away for a while, and when I got back I skimmed the chat and thought this to be a reply to what I said. :) So I told this story.
 
@sbi isn't the moral there that evidence based policy is the only way to go?
 
sbi
@StackedCrooked And, as I said, that was merely one degree of freedom. Those 24hrs are among the worst in my life.
 
2:37 PM
doctor doesn't know best, but large scale studies can tell you a lot (especially in whole populations, which is exactly what mass-vaccination programs are)
 
Xeo
Oh yeah, @sbi, did the little bugger from yesterday night remember? :P
 
sbi
@Xeo No question this morning. (It was her, BTW.)
@awoodland There are no large-scale studies about varicella so close to birth.
 
Xeo
@sbi Good for you
Hm, and I can't seem to get my debian box to shut down oO
It just doesn't react to any commands...
 
Maybe she's still asleep.
Shake her a bit.
And if that doesn't work, pour water on her.
 
@sbi but there are for vaccination policies, so for a whole population it makes sense to use that, even if on individual cases there isn't sufficient evidence for such an approach to be used
 
sbi
2:42 PM
@awoodland We were sent to the biggest clinic in Berlin (Virchow-Charité), where we spent half the night waiting for tests and doctors' opinions. There, unbelievably, was another woman with the exact same problem. The doctor who they fetched from home to deal with our problem said that she had seen about to or three cases like this in a decade, and having two in the same year, would be suspicious, but in the same night might indicate that she should buy a lottery ticket.
 
"doctor knows best" is definitely wrong, but for compulsory mandatory mass vaccination it isn't a question of "doctor knows best"
 
@sbi The worst thing is that there's no way of knowing the right answer even if you get the desired results...that said, I would have to say you made the right call.
 
Of course he did. It worked out well.
 
sbi
Basically everyone is immune against chicken pox because everyone got in contact with it earlier in their life. (That girls mother was later tested as immune, too, BTW, with the values indicating she had acquired immunity as a child. No one dared to try to explain this.)
 
We had a scare when our oldest was born...I know it's no fun.
 
Xeo
2:46 PM
Tch, oh well, let's just pull the plug on the vbox and hope for the best..
 
Ask your little brother. He seems to be an adept at doing that.
 
Xeo
Funny. Very funny.
 
sbi
@keithlayne Yeah, when we made the decision, we had no idea whether we had just damned our child to die or be a handicapped for the rest of her live. We just evaluated the contradictory information we had as good as we could.
 
@sbi that's all you can do. In our situation we had no foreknowledge of the problem. It was scary, but we didn't have to make decisions, just had to trust the docs. I'm glad your little one came out fine.
 
sbi
And this was why I was telling this story. What with having many kids, I have been in the situation to decide about medical questions like this numerous times. I have been forced to make my own decisions in the field of medicine so often, because doctors couldn't agree on what seemed to be the simplest decisions, that I will never ever again do what I've been told just because a doctor said so. You cannot trust a doctor telling you "do this". You need to decide on your own.
 
2:50 PM
Before our last was born we had another scare...my wife had a tumor in her head that wasn't operable until after birth lest we risk both lives. It all turned out fine in the end. Moral of the story: I'm not having any more kids.
 
sbi
@keithlayne Wow. The two of you seem to have caught quite a few hard cases. (But I once also said I won't have any more kids, and failed to stick to it. :) Kids are great.)
 
Indeed they are, but I had my wife spayed, so I'm not worrying about it too much. :)
 
@sbi o_0 kids are one of those things that I wish I could just time share
don't want kids all the time
@keithlayne :O
 
sbi
@keithlayne I don't have all my kids with one woman. :-/
 
pimpin' ain't easy.
 
sbi
2:56 PM
"A serial monogamist." Now there's a term I hadn't heard yet.
 

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