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8:06 PM
The brute force approach won't work.
 
@sbi I'm confused. And that's probably for the best
 
> I think it isn't a good idea to show C++ as a semi-dynamic typing programming language (at least not for a starter), this could lead to terrible programming mistakes. – julio.alegria ↵ 2 hours ago
What is this I don't even.
 
sbi
@jalf Don't tell me you have never run into him?
 
Of course he has.
Who hasn't?
 
sbi
I know Halloween is over, but just in case this wasn't spooky enough, here's A regular expression to check for prime numbers.
 
8:15 PM
@sbi I probably have. I'm just not sure who we're talking about
 
His screen name on the Microsoft forums is the title of an ABBA song.
On StackOverflow he uses an expression of hopelessness instead.
 
I don't know enough ABBA songs to match his name, but I think I know who you're talking about
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Oh, has he changed his nick? That's good to know.
 
@sbi On StackOverflow? No.
 
8:17 PM
@sbi it's pretty easy to recognize him no matter what nick he uses
he always uses the same gravatar, I believe, and there's something about his posts that make him stand out (and not in a good way)
 
sbi
@jalf There's that, yes. But then knowing when he changed his nick would prevent me from thinking "Oh no, not another dork!"
 
Dammit, it uses American billions.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes those are the best kind :)
 
Our billions are bigger :P
 
8:26 PM
tbh, I think that's one place where they've got it right. American ones are a lot more straightforward
 
sbi
@keithlayne Only if you owe them. If you are owed, the other kind is better.
 
@jalf Traitor!
 
@RMartinhoFernandes but their weird units for everything else can just fuck right off
 
@sbi I really am sorry that you are footing the bill for the Greeces of the EU
 
@keithlayne @sbi is? That sucks
 
8:28 PM
He and his countrymen
 
oh right
 
Yeah, our bills too.
:(
 
@sbi I've been meaning to ask (btw I'm not into politics so much) are your taxes there crippling? or is it just part of the deal that you get used to?
 
@keithlayne I meant, they're paying our (Portuguese) bills too.
 
it's all so amazingly stupid. I blame northern European politicians over the last 20+ years. Instead of trying to build a union that'd actually make sense and be robust, it was completely and utterly form over function. As long as it looks like a union, we don't actually need to behave like one
and then big surprise, it eventually falls over
 
8:30 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes I can't read, dammit
 
sbi
@keithlayne There were times when I was at the receiving end of the tax money, so if I was opposed to paying taxes, I'd be nuts. I definitely do not agree with what a large percentage of that money is spent on, but I'm not opposed to the system in general.
 
@jalf where are you from? If you don't mind the question, that is.
 
@keithlayne Denmark
so we have higher taxes than @sbi ;)
 
Northern Europe!
 
8:31 PM
@sbi oh cool, it even says there
 
Krone? Kroner? Something like that?
 
I didn't realize
@keithlayne yeah, krone singular, kroner plural
 
@jalf Rub it in, why doncha
 
:)
 
How does that compare with the Icelandic Krone? :)
 
8:32 PM
@keithlayne favorably ;)
 
well said
 
@jalf Oh, you would get a silly-benchmarks badge if some conspiracy that brewed a few days ago came to fruition!
 
sbi
@jalf For the Icelanders?
@RMartinhoFernandes Indeed! Now we know why he started that crusade against it!
 
4.7 dkk = 100 isk
 
sbi
:1922645 Yes. Sigh.
 
8:33 PM
And our economy didn't crash 2 years ago like Iceland's did. Thankfully
 
I've only been back and forth through Europe a couple times. Landed in Keflavik for a while, and I have been "through" your country too, @sbi.
See? The gorilla sighs. I should make a haiku out of that somehow.
 
user457812
The gorilla sighs
rotting cabbage and garlic
permeates the room
3
 
@nil subtle
 
sbi
@nil Wow. I'm seriously impressed.
 
yeah, that's good
@RMartinhoFernandes aw, I want a badge :(
 
8:36 PM
@nil You're the one that is studying creative writing or something like it, right?
 
user457812
Yes.
 
I just really don't get kraut (or however you spell it)
 
sbi
@jalf Well, you prevented this.
 
user457812
It's a commentary on the societal problems of dental hygiene and why garlic is awesome.
 
Or cabbage in general
 
8:38 PM
@sbi yeah, once again my idealism got in my way
 
sbi
"Miriam, what do you think the poet was trying to tell us with this?" "Um, I think it's a commentary on the societal problems of dental hygiene and why garlic is awesome, Mrs. Jones."
 
user457812
That would be more of a literature major thing, not a creative writing major
 
user457812
Far as I can tell, creative writing majors think questions like that are stupid.
 
@sbi The airport in one of the big cities (forget which) has an entire little terminal where they sequester all the American GIs on their way to and from the bad places. It's really weird. And there was this super-hottie working at the shop where they sell funny-shaped cokes.
 
sbi
@nil Oh, then that would make me a CW major then.
 
user457812
8:41 PM
It would at least make you not pretentious enough to think there's some deep meaning or point to any piece of writing.
 
sbi
@keithlayne I'm sorry to say, but I think this is a bad haiku. But then, I'm probably the opposite of an expert on Japanese poetry.
 
Watch out for evil cabbages.
 
which one?
 
user457812
I'm pretty sure you can't write haikus in English
 
Also garlic is awesome.
 
8:41 PM
Neat. Now I know that there's a super-hottie in an airport somewhere selling funny-shaped cokes.
 
@nil but you can in American!
@RMartinhoFernandes keep a look out
 
sbi
@keithlayne You should read the newbie hints. Sigh. Among other things, they explain how referring to specific messages works.
 
I want to marry her. I have a thing for girls selling coke.
2
That came out wrong.
 
user457812
That's what she said?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes you prolly wouldn't think they're funny-shaped cuz you're a dirty european
 
sbi
8:43 PM
Nov 6 at 11:21, by sbi
There are way more important features in a girl than the makeup of her outer shell.
 
@sbi I can't be bothered to touch the mouse to see what you're referring to...
 
user457812
Yeah. Maybe she can glob filenames or something.
 
@sbi hers was shaped like that
 
@keithlayne This shape?
 
sbi
8:44 PM
@keithlayne And you expect me to be bothered to tell you instead?
 
@sbi I relent, sir.
@RMartinhoFernandes I beat you to your own line +1
 
I thought this was the standard shape.
 
I saw a (mexican maybe?) coke commercial that played on that them. Also involved a super-hottie. @RMartinhoFernandes be on the look out for that too
 
Oh, and in the greatest tradition of the C++ lounge, that message that "came out wrong" got starred.
 
Of course.
 
8:46 PM
i am thinking, given e.g. a thing of some category of things, can you identify chinese, russian and american shape?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes That's a good book, I own it in dead tree form.
 
user457812
Russain shape: angular and red. Chinese: round and red, probably has paint chipping. American: made of guns.
 
sbi
@FredOverflow You're off-topic. They are discussing hot girls ATM.
 
@nil and awesomeness!
 
user457812
And garlic.
 
8:48 PM
@FredOverflow Haven't read all of it, but I perused a couple sections to test if it was suitable for children, er, newbies.
 
@sbi Haskell's implicit currying makes me very horny.
 
sbi
@FredOverflow Johannes? Is that you in there? Can we help you to get out?
 
@FredOverflow take that, std::bind
 
Someone wanted a function that converts a three argument function into a two argument function, right? Here is the Haskell code for that:
const f
:)
 
8:49 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes are you speaking of the one you recommended me?
 
@FredOverflow Yeah, I know. I was the one asking for that. :)
@keithlayne Yeah.
I usually just write (f!) though.
 
It's funny, but does it ever go anywhere?
 
@keithlayne It covers pretty much everything.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes then I will skip ahead, thanks again.
 
I think it lacks on one aspect: there's no chapter titled The Good, The Bad, and The Arrow.
 
8:53 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes does it cover arrows? I assume that monads are unavoidable.
 
Haskell, the only language providing actual ammunition for shooting yourself in the foot.
 
@keithlayne Yes, it covers monads.
It has chapters A Fistful of Monads and For a Few Monads More.
 
That dude's clever. My kinda style.
 
(Parodying the movies A Fistful of Dollars and For a Few Dollars More.)
 
user457812
It should parody porn movie names.
 
8:55 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes Thank you so much!!! I would never have gotten that!!!!! OMG singleton
 
user457812
I don't get movie titles, so I appreciate it. -_-
 
I recall there's a standard predicate that checks if the stack is currently unrolling due to an exception. anyone remembers the name?
 
Does parodying parody titles makes them unparodied again?
philosoraptor
 
@RMartinhoFernandes What does (f!) mean?
 
8:57 PM
@nil Boys-E or Boy-See?
 
@FredOverflow I have (!) = const, and I can use a section for neater syntax.
(Neater being subjective)
 
user457812
Latter.
 
> Lately they've gotten even lazier and started simply adding "An XXX Parody" on. Examples: Star Trek: The Next Generation An XXX Parody, Married, With Children: An XXX Parody, and so on. What's amazing is that the acting is actually good, there just happens to be rampant XXX activites sandwiched in between a plot...Or So I Heard.
 
@CatPlusPlus Shooting yourself in the foot is a side-effect, so it's not easy to do in Haskell.
4
 
8:58 PM
@nil does that make you a local?
 
user457812
No. That makes me capable of basic observation.
 
You can name the function fuck, and have (fuck!)!
 
@FredOverflow I would think that arrows make it easier
 
I totally got that joke :)
 
@keithlayne Well, normally you should yourself in the foot with bullets, but arrows should also do quite nicely :)
Does Haskell have bows? :)
 
8:59 PM
Oi, who steals my stars.
Bandits.
 
You could say that the right-side bananas are bows.
|)
 
Aren't bananas just folds?
 
Kinda.
Folds are bananas.
 
I see.
 
@wilhelmtell it doesn't do quite that, and never implemented for Visual C++
 
9:00 PM
Is there anything above bananas?
 
As in, "bananas are ..."?
 
Metabananas.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes right
 
Bananas (formally catamorphisms) are homomorphisms.
But at that point it gets deep into category theory and it stops being relevant.
 
@CatPlusPlus do those have an extra layer of peel?
 
9:03 PM
C++11 15.5.3/1 The function std::uncaught_exception() returns true after completing the initialization of the exception object (15.1) until completing the activation of a handler for the exception (15.3, 18.8.4). This includes stack unwinding. If the exception is rethrown (15.1), std::uncaught_exception() returns true from the point of rethrow until the rethrown exception is caught again.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Homosapiens consumes banana. How do I express that in Haskell?
 
I don't know how to answer that.
 
I'm not even exactly sure what the question is ;)
 
class HomoSapiens inherits Hominid implements IBananaEater;
 
Wrong language.
 
9:05 PM
heh, I can't even remember if that's correct Java syntax
 
isn't a banana a vegetable?
 
s/inherits/extends
 
@FredOverflow ah
 
@RMartinhoFernandes What exactly is category theory, anyway?
 
9:15 PM
Oh, gosh, why do you ask complicated questions?
 
Category theory is an area of study in mathematics that examines in an abstract way the properties of particular mathematical concepts, by formalising them as collections of objects and arrows (also called morphisms, although this term also has a specific, non category-theoretical sense), where these collections satisfy certain basic conditions. Many significant areas of mathematics can be formalised as categories, and the use of category theory allows many intricate and subtle mathematical results in these fields to be stated, and proved, in a much simpler way than without the use of ca...
@RMartinhoFernandes Well, the Lounge couldn't get any more silent, so I didn't think it wouldn't do too much harm :)
 
I know a few things about it, but I'm not sure I know what it is.
 
> Category theory is an area of study in mathematics that examines in an abstract way the properties of particular mathematical concepts, by formalising them as collections of objects and arrows (also called morphisms, although this term also has a specific, non category-theoretical sense)
This has nothing to do with Haskell arrows, does it?
 
Yes, it's closely related.
 
9:17 PM
Many category theory concepts were adopted in Haskell.
 
> The most accessible example of a category is the category of sets, where the objects are sets and the arrows are functions from one set to another. However it is important to note that the objects of a category need not be sets nor the arrows functions; any way of formalising a mathematical concept such that it meets the basic conditions on the behaviour of objects and arrows is a valid category, and all the results of category theory will apply to it.
Hm, sounds sensible.
 
Monads, arrows, catamorphisms (aka folds aka bananas), the less common anamorphisms (aka unfolds aka lenses) are only a couple of them.
 
I wish someone could explain Haskell monads in a high-level way that assumes knowledge of the relevant categorical concepts. Every attempt I've heard so far stumbles over the speaker's desire to "simplify" things, which only result in total confusion.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Are arrows itself a category with objects and "arrows"?
 
@KerrekSB If you already know what a category theory monad is, you shouldn't have trouble.
There's not much to explain after that point.
 
9:21 PM
> Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
(apparently a famous quote by Phil Wadler)
 
See, clear as water.
 
So what's the big deal?
 
There is no big deal.
Monads are simply way too abstract for the "ordinary" imperative programmer who hasn't gone beyond "A extends B" abstraction.
 
A extends B is a long shot.
 
9:23 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes I'm totally happy with categorical monads and adjunctions and limits and all. I just have no idea what it does in Haskell.
@RMartinhoFernandes Cool, let me check that out
 
8
Q: Some questions about monads in Haskell

StackedCrookedI'm learning about monads and have a few questions. This is where I am right now. Please correct me where I am wrong. The >>= symbol is an infix operator. Infix operators are functions that take two arguments (left-hand side and right-hand side) and return a value. The >>= symbol i...

 
@KerrekSB IO :)
 
^ Hey, @RMartinhoFernandes edited this a looong time ago
 
@KerrekSB Pretty much everything!
@StackedCrooked Oh, long before I met you here.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Exactly :D
 
9:26 PM
@keithlayne I understand that you need monads in FP to achieve statefulness, but I just cannot see how the FP monads are anything like the categorical monads.
Where are the units and the couints?
 
@KerrekSB now you're just mocking me
 
@keithlayne Not in the least. That was the most serious thing I've asked on SO all week.
 
@KerrekSB I know, kidding. However, monads (the FP kind) are still on my things-to-wrap-my-head-around list. Let alone category theory.
 
@KerrekSB The Haskell Monad class is slightly different in that it defines a monad in terms of return (I think it's called unit in CT) and bind, while CT uses unit and multiplication (called join in Haskell), I think.
 
@KerrekSB you can't just go around making up words like 'units' either.
@KerrekSB Are couints some type of Haskell integer type? :)
 
9:32 PM
@keithlayne Not at all. Every adjunction defines a unit and a counit (which are natural tranformations of functors), and also a monad. The triple of the category, the adjoint functor pair and the unit defines the monad, and conversely you can construct for every monad an adjunction that recovers it. So... this is fairly fundamental. It also makes a lot of sense. Unlike Haskell :-(
Wikipedia has a nice overview.
 
@KerrekSB LAUGH AT MY BAD JOKES DAMMIT1!1!!
 
@KerrekSB In Haskell not all monads have counits. The most famous example is IO.
 
@keithlayne Next time! :-)
(Sorry, I'm distracted, I need to do something else. Back later.)
 
9:47 PM
Meanwhile in Belgium government negotiations have crashed again.
 
sbi
@StackedCrooked Yeah, I have just read this.
 
Wow, tell me something new.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes getche() is posix functions?
 
Flanders wants to reduce government spending. Wallonie wants to increase taxes. Both parties are have become more polarized over the 526 days after the election.
 
@StackedCrooked wonderful. Who needs compromises?
 
9:50 PM
@MrAnubis I think so.
 
@keithlayne hahahaha ( 0_o)
@RMartinhoFernandes so windows users shouldn't use it? it return '\r' when pressed return on my compiler
 
sbi
@keithlayne Outside of the military complex, applying the imperative rarely ever has the desired effect.
 
@jalf Flanders has gotten the short end of the stick in the last decades. The Flemish population is quite upset with that. So the Flemish parties fear that they'll lose many votes if they give in too much.
 
@MrAnubis I think it's available on <conio.h> on Windows or something. It's deprecated anyway.
 
@sbi These days, it doesn't necessarily work there either
 
9:54 PM
@StackedCrooked Well, it takes two to tango. I'm not blaming any one specific side or party. But if they can't find a common middle ground that's better than doing nothing, then they're not doing their jobs, and they deserve to get even fewer votes
It's mainly the attitude (also known from US politics) that if we can't do it my way, then I'm going to prevent anything from being done
 
@keithlayne really?
 
that drives me crazy
 
@jalf Oh, that's called "being childish", right?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes it has many names, I believe
although to be honest, I think we see it more in adults, to be honest
 
9:56 PM
kids usually manage to work things out in the end.
 
@jalf I agree. However, things are going the opposite way. According to recent polls both sides growing stronger in votes.
 
How's that possible?
 
@StackedCrooked ugh... Rewarding irresponsible behavior
 
Where are they getting votes from?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes from people who didn't trust them before, but like their hardlining stance, I guess
 
9:57 PM
Oh.
 
The Flemish party is getting votes from the Flemish people. Wallonie is analogous.
@jalf That's basically it.
 
So they didn't have as much support before.
Ugh.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes They had much support to begin with, but it has grown with a few %.
 
well, I guess that unlike those who want a compromise, they've actually got some results to show
and that makes them look good, in a way
better than someone who's spent the last 18 months trying to form a compromise (and a government), and failing
 
@jalf The compromising parties are loosing votes.
 
9:59 PM
yeah, that's what I mean
they're the ones who look like complete failures, if you look at it cynically
because a compromise hasn't been reached
 
@jalf Sadly true...our legislature is failing as we speak on some important stuff
 
@keithlayne you're American, right
?
 
@MrAnubis Yes, but I wouldn't want to get into that
 
heh :)
 
@jalf you can't tell? :)
 
10:01 PM
@keithlayne might as well make sure ;)
 
Hey guys
 
This chat program is really coming togehter
 
@RMartinhoFernandes beat me to it
@jalf a taste of your own medicine :)
 
I've always felt that the whole "politicians are corrupt an stupid" meme was a lame excuse for not caring about politics, but given what's been going on recently, it's not easy to stick to that belief
 
10:05 PM
@jalf This seems to be a trend everywhere. For lack of a better term, radical fundamentalism. We see it causing wars. And at home, the politicians garner votes by appealing to the extreme right/left.
 
user457812
I just think of politicians as giant children. People who never quite grew up and figured out that you have to work together to actually do the things they want to do.
 
ah well, this calls for some entertainment
 
I say, nuke the entire country from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
2
 
user457812
Nuke all the countries!
 
@nil I don't think they have any real incentive to accomplish anything.
Nothing's as strange as being in a foreign land surrounded by people who want to kill you and at the root of it there's no real reason why.
I hate politics.
 
@keithlayne I don't. I just hate people who try to make a career of it
 
> now i'm on the wierd part of youtube again. Just look at the related videoes!
I guess this is my cue.
 
10:58 PM
 

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