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3:01 PM
well making the static lib a dll lib would be painful if all of it has to be loaded. vs say just loading those functions that one exposes/exports from say the static lib.
vs the static lib having to be built by all progs
 
@user245823 a static lib is a static lib, it is not a dll. That's kind of the point
 
How big is the lib anyway?
 
dll stands for Dynamically loaded library
 
you're looking at this the wrong way
the size of individual libraries is really quite irrelevant
for a modern platform, anyway
the reality is that the size of all your binaries put together is probably utterly negligible compared to the data you're working on
 
50 mgs is the size of static lib.
 
3:02 PM
see? trivial
 
yea i guess i am dealing with people who just act stupid about stuff like this
and want to have a technical conversation about
 
unless you plan on linking it to 10 separate executable (.exe or .dll) files in the same process
 
you are not being optimal
sooo...we dont want to use static lib
or provide pros and cons for one method over the other before we decide
 
Then use a DLL.
 
optimal is including the source code so that the compiler can inline everything
 
3:04 PM
@DeadMG that's not optimal for compile times - "one big TU" for an entire project would take ages to compile, every time you made a tiny change!
 
Well, static lib could be IR.
 
you'd get the fastest, smallest output result though
 
Then LTCG can inline it.
Also inlining doesn't shrink the executable size, but increases it.
 
not necessarily
if the compiler has to generate the function just to stick it in a DLL anyway, it won't matter
but also, the compiler doesn't have to generate for example import/export tables
 
@DeadMG I was making the point that simply saying "optimal" doesn't even say from who's perspective you'd like it to be optimal - the user and the developer (and compiler developer) can have wildly differing views on what unqualified "optional" means
 
3:07 PM
"optimal".
 
true
but the compiler is probably smarter than the dev or the user
 
@user245823 Please don't say "<s>per say</s>" if you don't know what it means or why it is wrong...
 
Please don't say "per say" because that's a misspelling.
per se.
 
it's "per se"
peasants
 
OMG, that's what "per say" "means"?
 
3:08 PM
lolol
 
I stand by my previous statement
 
It's Latin for 'in itself' I believe
 
the Chicago style manual recommends per se for latin phrases :)
 
it's from the US -> thoroughly ignoring
they cut a whole bunch of 'u's from English because they thought their children were too stupid to learn them
I guess they were right?
 
That's not offensive or anything.
(not that it has any relation to the truth.)
 
3:10 PM
 
We also eliminated excessive E's!
 
Hey, who's getting star happy?
5
 
you guys are funny. =P
 
personally
I have absolutely no problem with offending peple
 
thats why i love coming here. always learn something new.
 
3:11 PM
political correctness hasn't exactly gotten us very far
 
@DeadMG Good, but it doesn't make that statement any less wrong.
That said I get it was tongue-in-cheek, so I'll shut up.
 
You know, I really thought that "per say" was some kind of English idiom. I never used it because I had no idea what it meant.
 
I'm pretty sure that, the last time I checked, that was the reason given
by the guy who changed it
 
@RMartinhoFernandes That's because you're a smart man. Reputation comes mainly from what we don't say.
 
sbi
@DeadMG Did you, per chance, mean "pebble"?
 
3:13 PM
Experts are experts because they know when to keep quiet.
2
 
why yes
I did mean "pebble"
 
By contrast, you can do all sorts of amazing things, but you say one "per say" and I wonder if you even listen to yourself.
 
thanks for pointing out my error
 
sbi
@KerrekSB Had you kept your mouth shut and not said that, I'd have starred it.
2
 
@KerrekSB By that, you mean that they're pronounced identically?
so if you did actually say "per say", it'd sound exactly like someone who had said "per se"?
 
3:15 PM
It's sort of like 'would of'.
 
I never connected "per say" with "per se", because only English pronounce it like "per say".
 
what, "per se"?
 
I like "purr say" better.
 
@DeadMG Only in a specific(ally oboxious) American accent, I think.
 
Where's my pizza, dammit.
 
3:16 PM
me and my family are all from the English Midlands, we have very English accents, and we all pronounce it "purr say"
I've never encountered anyone who said it some other way
 
People outside of England do.
 
What's the other way to pronounce it?
 
Quick! Where's someone who speaks Latin?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes there's loads of latin phrases in English which get corrupted like that because people don't realise they're latin
 
That said, American oral renditions of Latin must rank among one of the hilarious feats of human culture. Not that there's any reliable record of what Latin sounded like, and everyone does it differently, but still, there are levels...
 
3:17 PM
If they get borrowed into English, they're pronounced with English phonetical system, not Latin.
 
@DeadMG Do you also pronounce C as "soy" and mine as "moin"?
 
(Or whatever the proper term is.)
 
uh, no?
 
@awoodland WTF.
 
C is "see" and mine is, uh, "mien"?
 
3:18 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes some kind of poor attempt at phonetic spelling of (extreme) Midlands accents
 
not really sure how to describe the pronunciation of "mine" except as "mine" :P
I've also been to Cornwall and Wales and I have never, ever, ever, ever heard anyone say C as "soy"
 
main.
 
Moin moin, I think it's "pair say". I don't find a better wording than "say
 
"pair" for "per" sounds like French
 
MoinMoin is a wiki.
 
3:20 PM
It should rather be something between "say" and "see"
 
Wheeere's my pizza.
 
@DeadMG You're missing about three r's.
 
how about "purse"?
 
sbi
@DeadMG That's because, since your exposed to it starting from being born, you don't even hear it when you say it yourself. :)
 
@DeadMG I think it sound like latin
 
3:20 PM
@sbi I can tell the difference between "soy" and "C".
 
sbi
@CatPlusPlus The deliverator will ring any minute now. Brace yourself.
 
Deliverator?
 
"soy" is a lot deeper
 
and has a downward curve on it
"see" is higher with an upward curve
 
sbi
3:21 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes Ha! A reference lost on you!
 
Dammit.
Can I haz xplanaxan? :(
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes First hit.
 
no
 
@sbi Oh, thanks. Never read Stephenson.
 
> The book presents the Sumerian language as the firmware programming language for the brainstem, which is supposedly functioning as the BIOS for the human brain
Okay.
 
sbi
3:22 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes What??
 
Don't kill me!
 
me neither
 
I'm only 24.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes But I already paid the assassin...
 
sbi
@DeadMG Yeah, but then you don't read SF anyway.
 
3:23 PM
and he does not issue refunds
hey, I read Ender's Game
 
(Tolkien has a word misuse that bugs me: he writes "from whence" a lot, but whence means "from where", so it becomes "from from where" which makes no sense, like PIN number and ATM machine)
 
@DeadMG I'm impressed.
 
Maybe it was used like that then. Languages change.
 
apparently there was a shiatbunch of other novels in that universe
but I never read any of them
the truth is, I actually don't really read anymore
 
3:24 PM
I only read Ender's Game too.
Looking back, I really don't see what I liked about it back then.
 
sbi
Ok, gotta go, pick up the kids, and entertain my visitors with them. Will likely be offline tonight. See you!
 
Can't you put them on automatic mode, or something?
 
It's the story of a kid that kills other kids and justifies itself with "oh but that's the only way to stop them from bullying me".
Fucking prick.
 
from my memory, their bullying was also pretty fucking violent
also, Ender was a tactical genius and succeeded against huge odds- the other kids were all much bigger than him, etc
 
3:26 PM
Ha, I loved that book.
 
@DeadMG Well, yeah, everyone in that universe is a prick.
Even the mentors.
 
lol
 
Maybe Valentine is the only non-prick in the entire Universe.
 
the most important thing about Ender is that he was a genius
that's why I identify with him so much
 
3:27 PM
lol
Yeah, Valentine is the only character I don't hate from Ender's Game.
But I did love the book when I was 14 or so.
 
it's been a really long time since I read it
I think the way that they didn't tell Ender he was actually fighting a war was smart
 
And pricky.
:)
 
hey, defending an Earth being invaded by aliens is a pretty good excuse to be a prick if you ask me
 
Right, xenocide the whole fucking race.
 
that's true
 
3:31 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes What's "xenocide" -- kill everything that's not like you?
 
@KerrekSB Maybe. There's a sequel with that title, so I guess it means something like that.
"Killing aliens" or something.
 
yes
although in your sentence, it really should be "genocide".
 
It still makes sense as is.
 
Xenocide was the 3rd book in that series.
 
Practice alien murder on the whole fucking race.
It's still a genocide.
 
3:35 PM
Omg
 
Oh sorry, if I spoiled the ending for anyone :P
 
No, something else
 
Because you totally don't see that coming.
 
I just spent an hour working on a LazyInstance class in C#
And just discovered .NET already has Lazy<T>
 
don't they already have a Lazy<T>?
 
3:36 PM
Right.
 
ooowwwnnneeeddd
ahem
 
Heh.
Interesting, my base implementation almost matches theirs, I just have to adjust class names and it compiles.
 
4:02 PM
Woo, pizza.
It's only an hour late, but it's not cold so whatever. Not paying for delivery anyway.
Garlic sauce is awesomesauce.
 
I'm stuck in 2.0. If you went and wrote MEF
 
What do you mean?
 
4:32 PM
How fare thee!
 
Hola:)
 
@user411102 hiya :)
 
@LewsTherin nice avatar ! , is that you?
 
@user411102 xD no :)
Yep, it's pretty cool
Doctor Who is a British science fiction television programme produced by the BBC. The programme depicts the adventures of a time-travelling humanoid alien known as the Doctor who explores the universe in a sentient time machine called the TARDIS that flies through time and space, whose exterior appears as a blue police box. Along with a succession of companions, he faces a variety of foes while working to save civilisations, help people, and right wrongs. The programme is listed in Guinness World Records as the longest-running science fiction television show in the world, and as the "...
 
Which is library is good to use for GUI? QT or GTK ? , which walks with C++ completely?
 
4:44 PM
Qt uses C++. No idea about GTK.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes did you like my greeting?
 
Qt is fairly sexy. I once wrote something minor entirely on Linux, then took it home, installed MingW+Qt, and it compiled straight out of the box and looked identical to the Linux version.
 
@LewsTherin It was... unusual.
 
You have the philosophical burden of being forced into the qmake preprocesor, to which some people object strongly.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Ha ha, that was the point :)
 
4:49 PM
Qt uses C++++.
 
@KerrekSB and QT has it's own containers etc also?
 
@user411102 Yeah, they define a huge, almost entirely self-sufficient platform. New types, new containers, ...
 
I'd like to see a cross-platform GUI library that doesn't try to reinvent everything.
 
You have UInt and QVector and whatnot.
 
@CatPlusPlus C++++ , looks like invented by grandson of bjarne
 
4:50 PM
@CatPlusPlus I'd love that too. The problem is that C++11 is too recent, and you'd really have to build a lot on that.
 
I don't mind code generation, but replacing standard library is silly.
 
E.g. any reputable framework will include Unicode handling. To do that right, you should use char32_tetc. But so far everyone has to reinvent that particular wheel.
I think Boost is going the right way; using it feels very natural.
Boost Window Library? Boost Framework for Gaming 9000?
 
3 hours ago, by Etienne de Martel
It's probably called Boost.Sausage or some other ridiculous name.
 
@CatPlusPlus I believe that the Qt containers offer a significantly enhanced interface compared to std.
 
C++11 attempt at Unicodifying itself is rather poor, anyway. std::string should be called std::byte_string, and not attempt to specialise on different character types, because that doesn't really buy you anything.
 
4:53 PM
@KerrekSB Oh, can I summarize for someone that never saw them?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Please do, I'm curious myself.
 
@KerrekSB They moved a lot into the container classes, but that's not really that good.
 
Damn silly typo.
 
Some time ago there was a question about QVector::contains vs std::find.
 
I actually meant "Oh, can you summarize for someone that never saw them?"
That someone being me.
Ooops.
 
4:54 PM
@CatPlusPlus I think basic_string isn't such a terrible idea. It does the job. And now we have u16string and u32string.
@RMartinhoFernandes Oh! I need to do some research in that case. BRB. :-)
 
Are they encoding-aware beyond using different char types?
 
No.
Just sequences of code units.
 
Ah. For starters, we have a toStdVector() member.
 
Besides, it's silly to have different strings for different encodings.
Encoded Unicode string falls under byte_string.
 
There's a lot more about inserting and finding.
 
4:55 PM
And internal encoding shouldn't matter.
They could've picked one for unicode_string.
 
So a lot of things that you'd do with a clever combination of algorithms in C++ can be done in a single member call in Qt.
 
@KerrekSB Oh, do you mean they have hundreds of members like std::string?
 
I don't think there's anything wrong with strings. You just have to make the mental distinction between strings and text. C++ provides the former, and the latter is a fiendishly complicated subject.
 
It's all your fault.
 
Check it out: replace, prepend, lastIndexOf...
 
4:57 PM
There's text and there's byte string.
 
@CatPlusPlus Not quite. Even a Unicode codepoint sequence is very far from text.
 
Codepoint sequence is a representation of text.
 
So C++ gives you a handy mechanism to deal with either specific code point sequences (u32string/u16string) or with opaque/agnostic value sequences (string/wstring), but if you want to do any serious text processing, you don't get around feeding that into a dedicated library anyway
 
Also, wchar_t is terrible.
 
@CatPlusPlus Yes, and also no. It's still very far from it. E.g. "what is a character" and "what is a space" ... those questions don't have an easy answer.
 
4:59 PM
And standard C++ doesn't help one bit.
 
A codepoint sequence is in some sense the minimal underlying infrastructure that you need in order to talk about complex text. But it doesn't do the reasoning for you.
 
Er. Codepoint represents the character, and "is it space" is a character property.
 
Much like you need int to talk about prime numbers, but you don't have a prime_int fundamental type.
@CatPlusPlus Yes, and no. It's very complex. Many different sequences of codepoints may represent the same textual character.
Even the question "what is a character" is not easy.
 
That's why there are normal forms.
 
Does a zero-width non-joiner count?
What about presentational forms?
All this is hard.
 
5:01 PM
> The Unicode Standard does not define what is and is not a text element in different processes; instead, it defines elements called encoded characters. An encoded character is represented by a number from 0 to 10FFFF16, called a code point. A text element, in turn, is represented by a sequence of one or more encoded characters.
 
@KerrekSB And how does not helping make it any easier?
 
And it is simply beyond the core language, as it should be. Anyone who wants to get into this subject should make a concious effort to understand the intricacies.
@RMartinhoFernandes It should be left to a dedicated library.
Just like prime factorisation.
 
Prime factorization is a bit of a niche thing, ain't it?
Text is hardly a niche.
 
If a topic is too complex to treat properly, then it's best to factor the responsibilities clearly.
@RMartinhoFernandes OK, what about GCD finding -- also a trivial property of numbers. But not part of the core language, nor the standard library.
 
If it is too complex to treat properly then it is hopeless no?
 
5:04 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes No, not in the least. A dedicated library can very well go and deal with the subject.
But consider this: The Unicode standard itself is comparable in volume to the C++ standard.
Do you really want the latter to incorporate entirely the former?
 
> Unicode characters represent plain text.
 
I think providing a core-language infrastructure (in the form of char32_t) is really the best thing C++ can do: It provides all the tools you need to store your text data, and makes it available easily to anyone who actually wants to process it.
@CatPlusPlus How does a zero-width non-joiner represent plain text?
Should the fact that a presentational medial form of an arabic letter normalizes into the base form of the letter be part of the C++ core language?
 
It's a disambiguation modifier.
 
That's way to much "data".
 
@KerrekSB The C++ standard already defers stuff to other standards.
It merely needs to provide an API.
 
5:08 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes An API for what? Anything beyond what's already included would require a whole library, non?
 
I don't know, something like ICU?
 
In other words, what would be a Unicode feature that you would like that can be easily put into C++ without a whole lot of baggage?
 
> Plain text is a pure sequence of character codes; plain Unicode-encoded text is therefore a sequence of Unicode character codes. In contrast, styled text, also known as rich text, is any text representation consisting of plain text plus added information such as a language identifier, font size, color, hypertext links, and so on. For example, the text of this specification, a multi-font text as formatted by a book editing system, is rich text.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Yes, of course. But ICU is huge! And it ships with a massive database.
 
This is how Unicode defines text.
It's all from 6.0.
 
5:10 PM
@CatPlusPlus Sure, but that's never what any user is asking for :-)
A database that's subject to semi-regular updates, I might add.
I think the dynamicism of the Unicode standard alone is reason enough to decouple it from a long-lived standard like C++.
 
Oh, I found that Qt question.
3
Q: Why QVector<TYPE*>::contains expects pointer to non-const TYPE as its parameter?

oyquanI'm using QVector to hold pointers to Objects, say FYPE*, in my program. class TYPE { // .... }; const TYPE *ptrToCst; QVector<TYPE*> qtVct; // ... if (qtVct.contains(ptrToCst)) { // Error!!! // .... } The compiler says QVector::contains expect...

@KerrekSB Unicode is versioned.
C++ can mandate conformance to at least 6.0, and be just fine.
 
Besides that, that's also very impractical: Any real-world compiler would have almost no choice but to just bundle ICU. I mean, how many complete implementations of the Unicode standard are there? Maybe MS have their own, I don't know...
Actually, how does Perl work? I think the Unicode character database may be open-sourced somehow and is used by both ICU and Perl. I can't believe that this huge effort would be duplicated across OSS.
 
@CatPlusPlus Ouch, that's ugly.
 
UCD is maintained by Unicode Consortium.
 
@CatPlusPlus Ahh, sweet sweet member functions.
@CatPlusPlus Yes, good catch.
 
5:16 PM
I really don't see how the Qt containers are superior.
 
They're really not.
 
They provide practically the same interface.
 
So now we have a three-fold dependency: The core language, the processing library, and the database. Meh. I'm happy to have each one handled by a dedicated team :-)
@RMartinhoFernandes They're not! :-)
You can use Qt containers in standard algorithms, though, since they have a standard iterator interface.
 
25 mins ago, by Kerrek SB
@CatPlusPlus I believe that the Qt containers offer a significantly enhanced interface compared to std.
Then what did you mean here?
 
The parts of QtCore I like include QDataStream.
 
5:19 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes "enhanced" as in "has more stuff". Doesn't mean "better" :-)
 
Well, if you're a newb and you think, "cool, a 'find-stuff-in-the-middle' member is just what I need", you might get quicker gratification.
 
Nearly all C++ serialisation libraries suck.
 
I'm just saying that Qt's philosophy is apparently to make lots of things easy to do. That was part of the discussion why they have essentially replicated most of the standard library.
I'm not sure that's Good, but at least you can write in a consistent Qt style if you like...
 
I see they have prepend and push_front on QVector.
There's a reason that was left out of std::vector.
 
5:21 PM
Though it's be cool to strip the library down and rename everything to make it a std::qt framework or so
@RMartinhoFernandes What be thy reason, youngling?
 
@KerrekSB They're hideously slow?
If you want insertion at the start, switch to a std::deque.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes These are not thoughts worthy of a Qt-mind!
 
Does QList provide indexing?
 
OK, more importantly for real-life: What do you guys think of the QtDesigner, and the signal-slot design?
 
Oh wait, QList is std::deque's equivalent.
 
5:23 PM
@KerrekSB I like it.
 
(Ah, there's QList and QLinkedList.)
 
See, QLinkedList does not provide indexing.
 
@robjb It does get the job done pretty quickly I must say.
 
For the same reason.
 
It's similar enough to event handling in .NET, which I learned first.
Simple and gets the job done.
 
5:24 PM
The QList has removeOne and removeAll. How cool is that? ;-)
 
@KerrekSB I have no experience with QtDesigner. I used to think that signal/slot was nice until I learned about boost::bind.
 
@KerrekSB removeAll is clear.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes No no, it's remove() by value.
 
@KerrekSB It's nice enough that we opted for Qt-Jambi over any of the other Java GUI frameworks that were tested for my senior design project.
 
5:25 PM
I think it's more of erase(remove()).
 
The naming is a bit schizophrenic: it's removeAll (cAmElcase), but push_back (std_case).
 
std::remove's name sucks big time.
 
@KerrekSB The latter is just there to meet the std container requirements.
 
@CatPlusPlus Well, std::list has remove, but that goes on mercilessly through the entire list. QtList can stop at the first find.
@RMartinhoFernandes Interesting. What are those requirements? Are they codified somewhere?
 
@KerrekSB That's erase(find).
@KerrekSB The standard!
 
5:26 PM
Lol.
Where else.
 
§23.2
There not as important as say, iterator requirements.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Thanks! I never knew there were formal requirements. What do those give you when you're writing your own classes? Compatibility with all algorithms?
I assume back_inserter requires a push_back or something like that?
 
@KerrekSB Yes.
 
hmm I've got enough votes for the silver C badge, but not enough answers
 
@awoodland Do you have exactly one extremely powerful answer? ;-)
 
5:41 PM
Any recommendations on a tool that will generate visual map of function calls for some C++?
 
5:58 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes Interesting. Now I know about == for unordered containers.
 

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