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Xeo
12:20 AM
Hmpf.
Here I am, building my integer_iterator and integer_range (like an iterator_range), having some problems and looking at the Boost.Range docs to see if I can solve them with info from there
 
 
1 hour later…
1:36 AM
IIRC there's a film, released within the last few years, that was shot over a decade or two so that the cast could play themselves at varying points of their characters' lives. What was it?
@Xeo the naming seems off
@Xeo in one you prepend "integer" to "iterator". in the other you replace "iterator" with "integer".
@Xeo logic suggests that only one of the names can be accurate
 
-1
A: Setting up a FAQ for the C++ tag

sixlettervariablesWhy create SO factions? The honest answer is the C++ "community" on SO is not a unique snowflake. The r "community" on SO is similarly territorial about "their" questions I've found. There is already a feature which handles "creating a FAQ" for common questions, Vote to Close as Exact Duplicate ...

 
Xeo
@TomalakGeretkal Huh? integer_iterator, integer_range, iterator_range. which specifically do you mean?
 
@Xeo i'm talking about the two that you invented.
obviously
 
Xeo
What about them?
I can't see what you mean
@TomalakGeretkal Where do I replace "iterator" with "integer"?
 
@Xeo if you've taken the concept of iterator_range and developed integer_range from it...
 
Xeo
1:42 AM
Yes
 
that would imply that your work involves applying something to do with iterators to integers instead. but then integer_iterator doesn't make sense.
conversely, integer_iterator should iterate over integers, but then you'd expect either integer_iterator_range, or to just use iterator_range in the normal fashion
 
Xeo
Well, instead of incrementing a pointer, it increments an integer stored in it.
So you somehow are iterating integers
and the integer range is a half-closed range of integers, obviously. Also, I'm not the only one naming them like that; Boost did exactly the same, as I just discovered
 
dunno
doesn't seem like a good naming to me
case in point: I still have no idea what they do
 
Xeo
2:20 AM
// C++0x:
for(int i : irange(0, 10)){
  std::cout << i << "\n";
}
Just as a small example
or in FOR_EACH
 
aha
that's cool
still think the naming is inconsistent :)
though i'm not really sure what a better choice would be
oh well
shame there's no array literal x..y
 
Xeo
@TomalakGeretkal Yeah
And since I hate this foo(cont.begin(), cont.end(), ....) stuff, I made a simple macro, wrote a little range adaptor and can now write the following:
for_range(i, 0, 10){ // for_range is a define for FOR_RANGE, which can be disabled
  std::cout << i << "\n";
}
In C++03, mind you
And for premade ranges / container, there is foreach / FOR_EACH
 
3:28 AM
very good
 
 
2 hours later…
sbi
5:29 AM
@Feeds So after two days the @Feeds guy finally realizes that he should have posted this here? That's, um, odd.
 
 
3 hours later…
Als
8:22 AM
phew..all alone
I am a lil pissed about anonymous down voters...its frustrating to know someone considers an answer wrong but not tell the reasons for that thinking....
 
@Als Yup -- I was about to just quit one time because of them.
 
Als
And its not about the rep really, the rep is just a part of the game..keeps coming by and going but atleast a reason is expected..
@JerryCoffin: It should be a SO ethic to leave a comment of what one thinks is incorrect while making a downvote....if not a rule
 
8:38 AM
Hello, is there someone?
 
Als
8:54 AM
@GameScripting: Hello
 
@Als yeah -- I treat it as a requirement to leave a comment nearly anytime I downvote or vote to close (though I've never kept count, I'm pretty sure I cast a lot more close votes than down-votes). Essentially the only exception is a "exact duplicate" vote, where a comment happens automatically, or in the case of really obvious spam.
 
Als
@JerryCoffin: Yeah duplicates, speak for themselves.I think downvoted just once with a reason, but i never downvote as such, I believe someone is investing time to answer the least they deserve is a downvote...i make a point to leave a comment to convey what could be wrong though..
but then that's subjective for downvote button exists for a purpose..
 
 
2 hours later…
11:07 AM
I never downvote without a comment unless I'm just agreeing with previously posted comments.
 
sbi
11:19 AM
@JerryCoffin If nobody already commented on some flaw in an answer, I usually first comment on why I think an answer is bad and then come back a while later and see if the user has fixed it (or other commentators condemned me). If it isn't fixed, and the guy didn't even respond, I downvote. Of course, there's exception, like when the answer is abysmally bad, or a one-liner, or it's one of only two answers, and "misguided" users upvoted the wrong of these two...
 
Hi, can anyone tell me the psychology of why this question (which is an exact dup of a thousand other questions) got so passionately voted? This is really interesting
39
A: Can a local variable's memory be accessed outside its scope?!

RenaWhat you're doing here is simply reading and writing to memory that used to be the address of a. Now that you're outside of foo, it's just a pointer to some random memory area. It just so happens that in your example, that memory area does exist and nothing else is using it at the moment, so you ...

 
sbi
BTW, this dupe now finally seems to be closed for good, despite Joel's stupid intervention. That gives me some hope for the corrective powers of the community. OTOH, Robert cut down the list of dupes to one and locked the question, so that we now can't add to it anymore. I complained about that in a comment here.
@ArmenTsirunyan Ha! Our thoughts crossed on the server. It's pretty well explained here. (Basically, this was tweeted about twice from popular twitter accounts.)
 
@sbi, so your previous post was not related to mine? :)))
 
sbi
@ArmenTsirunyan No, I had been writing it and assembling the links etc. for a few minutes while you made yours, and, believe it or not, I didn't even look at what link you posted before I hit the send button... :)
 
That is extraordinary...
 
sbi
11:27 AM
Anyway, IIRC you were one of the brave souls who again closed this question, @Armen. Thanks! (I was one of the closers in the first round and weren't allowed to close-vote again.)
 
Or, rather, "Quite Interesting" :)
But you actually answered my question... so twitter is the culprit?
 
sbi
@ArmenTsirunyan I had a reply from Robert to my comment at the meta question, which made me look at the question again, which prompted me to post that. Since you hadn't even seen the meta question, it seems indeed coincidental.
 
No, I haven't seen the meta question
 
sbi
@ArmenTsirunyan At least it's one of the culprits. Joel and Ycombinator (and I don't know who else) tweeted it. I don't know if others did so, too, and I don't know if other sites (reddit etc.) also published it.
 
I am now in the middle of hoping my own question to be reopened, which was closed as "not constructive". This is ridiculous.
54
Q: Challenge: Programmatically detect whether code is compiled with C++03 or C++0x

Armen TsirunyanIt is possible to write a function, which, when compiled with a C compiler will return 0, and when compiled with a C++ compiler, will return 1 (the trivial sulution with #ifdef __cplusplus is not interesting). For example: int isCPP() { return sizeof(char) == sizeof 'c'; } Of course, th...

 
11:33 AM
It did end up on reddit
 
What's not constructive about it? :)
 
sbi
12 hours ago, by Thomas Shields
Howdy chaps: I just got Practical C++ by Rob McGregor from my (wimpy) library - anyone know if this is a good book?
@ThomasShields It's not listed in The Definitive C++ Book List here on SO, which isn't a good sign.
 
Do you guys think C++ is an appropriate language for a first programming language?
 
sbi
Well, it is mentioned, but only by one poster and got only one upvote.
 
@ArmenTsirunyan With the right book, it can be:
 
sbi
11:36 AM
@ArmenTsirunyan You got my vote, and now it's open again. However, changing the question from "Challenge: ... " to "How can I ..." might improve the odds of it staying open.
 
I was taught programming with FP and I wouldn't dream of relearning it any other way (so I don't think C++ would be appropriate for this). With that said I can imagine learning with C++ would work for some. There's just too many ways to learn something (incl. programming) and too many ways each of us assimilate stuff, so really, you should give it a try and simply give up if it doesn't work
 
sbi
@ArmenTsirunyan In almost a decade I taught C++ as the first language to 4 generations of students, some of which had no prior programming knowledge (or only knew HTML). My experience is good, and those were certainly way faster to pick up other languages later than the students with one year of prior Java teaching to which I had to teach C++...
@LucDanton Ah, I suspected that, but didn't know.
 
And prior to that I had some math background so the functions of FP are quite reassuring as compared to the scary side-effects.
 
Als
hello All
 
Hi, @Als
 
Als
11:41 AM
Hello @ArmenTsirunyan
hows you?
 
sbi
@Als Uh oh. Don't let @Tomalak see this grammar.
(Oh, and hi from me, too, but I need to leave now anyway.)
 
@sbi We gots ourselves a Grammar Nazi?
 
Als
@sbi: Is he British? lol :P
 
sbi
15 hours ago, by sbi
@JohannesSchaublitb Actually he's a grammar nazi. I mean, "there's subtle differences" I learned in the US, not at school.
15 hours ago, by sbi
@TomalakGeretkal Language nazi!
 
sbi
11:44 AM
@Als How am I to know?
 
Als
@sbi: Most language Nazi are British
so the speculation
 
In all cases I think that 'learning programming with ___ language' is somewhat of a misnomer: if you pick a 'real' programming language (i.e. general purpose), then you'll have to restrict yourself to bits of it (which IMO can be really hard when self-taught); or use a language dedicated to teaching. For instance we used OCaml for learning but only the FP parts of it (the language is impure and can go imperative, too). Given how huge C++ can be I'd add that as an additional caveat.
 
Als
They hate their language trampled by us lol
 
sbi
@Als According to his profile, he is. :)
 
Als
@sbi: I have that expression right now I told you so :)
 
sbi
11:46 AM
@Als Aw, I'm sure you looked it up quickly before you asked! :b
@LucDanton I never restricted anything when teaching C++. I started out with "Hello, world!" and finished with template meta-programming, covering SP, OOP, GP on the way.
 
We were discussing that being British increases your chances of being a grammar nazi :P
 
@ArmenTsirunyan wow I ended up visiting SO today and saw "closed, 4reopen". I wanted to be the final reopener but then the question was already reopened xD
 
sbi
@JohannesSchaublitb Mine was the final one. :P
 
Als
@sbi: Naah, i smelled a British Nazi :P
 
11:49 AM
Thanks, @sbi :)
 
@sbi Ever done #include <csetjmp> ?
 
ohh -.-
see now you get the thanks. next time I will be first xD
 
sbi
@LucDanton That's not C++, it's C. :) FWIW, I also didn't teach inline assembler.
 
@sbi The C headers end in .h though
 
sbi
11:51 AM
@JohannesSchaublitb Not next time, but when you're as old as I am you might have learned, too, when to sneak one in like this. :)
 
@luc: Is it a standard C header? oO
 
No it's not
 
setjmp.h is
 
sbi
Generally, teaching C++ is hard because in order to teach one feature (say: exceptions), you would need to teach all other features before them (e.g. inheritance, which needs polymorphism, which needs dynamically allocated objects, which needs exceptions...). But learning the language isn't too hard if you have a teacher who has this sorted out.
2
 
Als
11:51 AM
@sbi: Never misses an oppurtunity to say he is old or rather old enough
;)
 
sbi
@Als You'll get there, too.
Eventually.
 
@ArmenTsirunyan I'm trying not to take the examples from the backwards-compatibility site. there are some things one could steal from there. the dependent name lookup thing is one
 
Als
Painfully
:P
 
I'd like to point out that my comments addressed learning programming with C++ and not learning C++ specifically. So depending on what you want to do with 'learning C++ as a first programming language' they may or may not be relevant.
 
@ArmenTsirunyan also there are some things that formally have changed from c++03 to c++0x but where most compilers will implement the c++0x thing even in c++03 mode
this sucks though :)
 
Als
11:53 AM
I wanted to ask, if there is any SO ethic to leave a comment while downvoting or voting for close?
I know there is no rule, but some guideline or ethic which addresses the issue?
 
@Johannes, like what... BTW are there any C++0x features that have not been implemented by any of popular compilers?
 
sbi
@LucDanton Yes, I had to teach concepts like recursion, different containers etc. using C++. One of the advantages of C++ is that you can teach several paradigms within the same language. :)
@ArmenTsirunyan VC10 barked at constexpr the other day.
 
@ArmenTsirunyan you can construct funny testcases that exploins ThisClassTemplate::f < to be treated as the less-then operator in c++0x and as the start of a template argument list in c++0x
but you are less likely to find a real implementation that treats it different like that in both modes
 
@sbi I too had my first inkling of imperative programming within OCaml for the whole of one or two two-hour sessions. It didn't really prepare for the shock that learning C proved to be though.
 
@ArmenTsirunyan inheriting constructor comes to mind
 
sbi
11:56 AM
@LucDanton Nothing prepares for the shock of learning C. :)
"I wonder if that first shovelful of dirt hits a corpse with the same shock." (Heinlein)
 
Aye !
 
Do you guys know if there are any (upcoming) good books about idioms in C++0x?
 
@sbi: However, GCC 4.something recent has constexpr
I don't think any compilers have implemented rvalue *this
 
sbi
Lakos has been rumored to get out a new edition of his "Large Scale C++ Programming" for years, but I haven't seen it yet.
 
@Armen I don't believe there are enough idioms to write a whole book right now
 
sbi
11:59 AM
@DeadMG Ah, I mis-parsed "not implemented by any of the popular compilers".
Anyway, I need to leave now. Bye!
 
@ArmenTsirunyan you can also construct cases where class T::T refers to a constructor in C++03 but to a type in C++0x, exploited with SFINAE
but you are very likely to find no implementation where that case will properly distinguish :)
 
@Johannes: Seems there are more ambiguities between C++03 and 0x than between C and C++03 ))
 
the last one would be pretty much a defect I think.
it'S at the very border to one :)
 
@Armen: Yeah- so what's surprising there?
 
so impls usually implement the sane mode
 
12:02 PM
@DeadMG: Can't say exactly WHAT's surprising, but it is surprising
@Johannes, which one are you talking about?
the T::T thing?
 
yeah
struct A { }; template<typename T> bool f(class T::A*) { return true; } template<typename T> bool f(...) { return false; } calling this with f<A>(0) is formally a test for C++0x vs C++03.
 
@Johannes May you explain how C++0x will react vs C++03?
 
I'm unsure about c++98 behavior though. so this would not be a safe test anyway :)
 
According to the test, that is.
 
@JohannesSchaublitb I can get a pointer to a constructor with C++0x?
 
12:07 PM
@KhaledNassar in C++0x class T::A will be a type. but in c++03, the T::A part will name the constructor of A, and then an SFINAE error is caused because the named member is not a type where a type is required
 
What type is class T::A when T is A ? A?
 
Thanks
Does that mean that 'injected class name' doesn't apply only to templates?
 
normal classes also have one
 
Funny, I didn't know that.
What does the struct (or class) apply to in struct A::A? First A or second A?
 
12:13 PM
second A
 
Ah; that's what the revised wording is clarifying, correct?
 
but first A ignores non-type/non-namespace and non-enumeration (c++0x) names too. because it'S in front of a '::'
@LucDanton yes
 
Thank you for the help
And A::A the constructor still only valid for using declarations at class scope? To make sure :)
 
Makes sense.. Thanks
 
1:07 PM
@JohannesSchaublitb happened to me as well
@sbi You can have polymorphism without dynamically allocated objects in C++. Just have a bunch of global objects of different subtypes and then point to them via a base type.
@ArmenTsirunyan I believe we have an SO question about that.
 
1:48 PM
@JohannesSchaublitb what about it
@Als "how are you"!
 
@TomalakGeretkal last comment on Eric's answer
 
lol o.O
 
forever alone
 
 
1 hour later…
2:55 PM
how do you check if boost::shared_ptr<> doesn't point to anything?
boost::shared_ptr<int> integer; if (integer.get() == 0){ // not set? }
 
you can implicitly convert it to bool
 
yea, or just if (!integer)
 
or some other safe-bool-like thing
 
btw that's a poor name for a pointer object
 
@TomalakGeretkal cool. that was easy :)
just an example
 
@TomalakGeretkal I'm looking at that page, just wanted to make sure..
it doesn't say what it's initialized to via the empty constructor.
 
yes it does
constructors

shared_ptr(); // never throws

    Effects: Constructs an empty shared_ptr.

    Postconditions: use_count() == 0 && get() == 0.

    Throws: nothing.
 
so the postconditions say what is true after creation?
 
you .. don't know what a postcondition is? :(
 
That's why they're called postconditions.
 
2:59 PM
lol
@Default that's the interface principle
 
unfortunately not..
reading about postconditions on wikipedia
 
is there any C++ library that automatically tests post conditions??
how would you implement such??
 
Er, assert?
 
^
and, that's what unit tests do
is this retard day or summat
 
@TomalakGeretkal did you just call me a retard?
 
3:05 PM
Oh, don't mind him, he's trying to top @sbi at being grumpy.
 
@CatPlusPlus but... that's not automatic!
 
i man if you write /* \post foo() != 0 */
as comment in your function decl
how to automatically check
or POST(foo() != 0) void f(); or something
 
@JohannesSchaublitb Sounds more like a tool than a library
 
3:07 PM
Well, with an additional preprocessing step, sure.
 
not vanilla c++ ?
 
Comments, no. POST(), I don't think so, without some additional trickery.
 
@Default no. I called today retard day.
@JohannesSchaublitb go google "testing" and knock yourself out!
 
3:12 PM
i want to automatically test
 
google "automatic testing" and knock yourself out!
 
no silly creation of testfiles
 
proving program correctness from a program itself is not doable, mathematically
 
There's nothing silly with writing tests; although your idea is worth investigating
 
either you create test files or you put the test conditions in comments by the functions. same thing.
 
3:13 PM
it shall insert asserts after and before the execution of function bodies
 
and there are plenty of tools that can do this.
 
i want that the caller of the function decls sees the conditions too
perhaps I should go with struct A { FN((foo() != 0), void f, ()); }
then I can automatically test it
 
3:42 PM
Hey guys
what do scalability of a language/framework mean?
does*
 
it means that it's easy to use on a very large scale
that means very organized, easy to use, high performance
 
3:59 PM
not quite
a scalable system, designed for/with small inputs, is able to gracefully and robustly handle larger inputs without alteration
it means "the system can grow", not "the system can be big"
subtle difference :)
 
 
2 hours later…
sbi
6:28 PM
5 hours ago, by FredOverflow
@sbi You can have polymorphism without dynamically allocated objects in C++. Just have a bunch of global objects of different subtypes and then point to them via a base type.
@FredOverflow Yes, you can, but that misses most of what you can use them for. (Also, this was just an example. It's easy to create other such vicious circles.)
3 hours ago, by Cat Plus Plus
Oh, don't mind him, he's trying to top @sbi at being grumpy.
@CatPlusPlus Grumpiness requires style. It's not proper grumpiness when you're also mean or straight out impolite.
0
Q: Was the Feeds guy sick in bed?

sbiIn the C++ chat room we have set up a few feeds, one to post all answers to the C++ FAQ question. This used to work fairly well, the Feeds guy posted anything that was subscribed to. However, the other day I accidentally noted a new answer (2011-06-23) to the above mentioned question, surprisin...

 
 
2 hours later…
8:12 PM
0
A: Setting up a FAQ for the C++ tag

Lance RobertsThis might work with the Portal/Community concept that Pekka posted about. The Team is also working on a similar concept to his, as per the podcast.

 
8:29 PM
@sbi: you are here, I know it to be true
 
sbi
@DeadMG Huh?
 
nothing
I just wanted to interrupt whatever you were doing
actually, I made a joke, but I guess you didn't get it and it's not really worth it
-1
A: Variadic template templates and perfect forwarding

DeadMGThis is quite wrong- take make_shared, for example. The point of make_shared is that there are run-time efficiency savings for using it. But what would happen if I tried to use make<std::shared_ptr>? Don't think that would quite work out. Or how about types where only some of the constructo...

was that really worthy of a downvote? :(
 
Hi all
Description of C++ tag - "C++ is a statically typed, free-form, multi-paradigm, compiled, general-purpose programming language." What is the significance of "compiled" term ?
If it's a programming language, it should be compilable. Or am I missing anything ?
 
as opposed to run-time interpretation
 
It should be removed, it's an implementation detail not a language attribute.
 
8:37 PM
well, technically, but in reality, pretty much everyone compiles it
 
There are also C++ interpreters, so, it's simply not true.
 
there are
what's the size of the use?
how many questions do I see on SO saying that they use an interpreter when asked what their platform is?
oh- none
 
It's irrelevant to the description.
 
@DeadMG - C++ has a dynamic binding feature. So what exactly do you mean - " as opposed to run-time interpretation"
 
@CatPlusPlus: The realities of using a language are very relevant
@Mahesh: Run-time interpretation means that all of the code is interpreted at run-time
dynamic binding can only choose between functions, and that's only with known, compile-time signatures
 
8:41 PM
@DeadMG - Do you mean code is generated at run-time ?
 
It's an excerpt from Wikipedia, which is linked to that:
A compiled language is a programming language whose implementations are typically compilers (translators which generate machine code from source code), and not interpreters (step-by-step executors of source code, where no translation takes place). The term is somewhat vague; in principle any language can be implemented with a compiler or with an interpreter. A combination of both solutions is also increasingly common: a compiler can translate the source code into some intermediate form (often called bytecode), which is then passed to an interpreter which executes it. A program translated ...
Which also gets "interpreter" wrong.
 
@Mahesh: Yes.
 
@DeadMG - Any example. Thanks.
 
Ugh. I just realised I shouldn't care about this at all.
 
sbi
How about "usually compiled"?
Posted by Rebecca Chernoff on June 23rd, 2011

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8:42 PM
@Mahesh: Check out Lua
for example, in Lua, you can load code from source string at run-time
 
8:56 PM
How come const char (&)[13] decays to char*
Nevermind! My bad
 
it doesn't in C++0x but does in C++03 for compatibility reasons
 
Even more of my bad: I meant std::decay here.
 
well, I'm pretty sure that it shouldn't
 
Well, that question with variadic template template parameter just provided me with the insight to get around the dreaded sorry, unimplemented: cannot expand 'Args ...' into a fixed-length argument list
 
9:23 PM
Lame plug of an answer I just posted:
1
A: Optimizations for pow() with const non-integer exponent?

PotatoswatterIn the IEEE 754 hacking vein, here is another solution which is faster and less "magical." Floating point numbers were originally invented as an approximation to logarithms, so you can use the integer value as an approximation of log2. This is somewhat-portably achievable by applying the convert...

 
10:06 PM
tl;dr
 
10:31 PM
Would anybody be privy to a good object-factory model tutorial? There are some great answers available on SO but they all seem either too specific to the particular context of the question or far too convoluted for my purposes.
 
what are you looking for from such a pattern?
 
sbi
@DaveStance "If I were king I’d just start beheading people for writing factories that make factories. It’d collectively save us billions of dollars." Landon Dyer
 
sbi markdown link win
 
10:52 PM
wow
apparently C++ developers with some DirectX experience is worth a hell of a lot of money in my area
 
Any one working for MathWorks ?
 
Well, not me.
 
What's at the intersection of MathWorks and C++? O_o
 
@Potatoswatter - One of my friend said most of their products are developed using C++. Just wanted to confirm :)
 
Well, that wouldn't be surprising. C++ is incredibly popular, and their products are portable enough to exclude .NET from the running.
 
11:05 PM
Yeah, I can see how that information would be useful.
 
sbi
@TomalakGeretkal ??
 
Gah, there's a 30 inch hair in my burger and I have only myself to blame
 
sbi
11:20 PM
@Potatoswatter Your hair is 30in long? Really? Or is that the hair's diameter? :)
 
Give or take, yes.
 
Inches. mumbles something about insane non-metric units
 
Bah, screw me for being scientific and having a tape measure on hand. It's more like 20. That's 50 cm for you foreigners.
 
sbi
@Potatoswatter Um. You are the foreigner, no?
 
@sbi Blasphemy! ;)
 
11:35 PM
My wonderful code breaks under g++. ;_;
 
sbi
@CatPlusPlus So g++ is too heavy?
 
@sbi That would explain why it's so bloody slow.
 
Is it their bug or yours?
 
sbi
@Potatoswatter How long have been working with compilers? IME, in 95% of all cases, the bug is yours, in 4% it's hard to tell, and in 1% you should file a bug report with your compiler vendor.
 
I've never had a "hard to tell" case. I only ask because the subject matter in this forum tends to be stressful for the compiler, i.e. C++11.
And I've never met a compiler I couldn't ICE.
 
sbi
11:46 PM
@Potatoswatter The "hard to tell" ones might be those where you file a bug, but they prove that they are right and you were wrong. :)
 
You file a compiler bug against 1 in 20 of your bugs overall??
 
sbi
@Potatoswatter Darn. I pulled those numbers out of my ars^W^Wthin air, and now I'm in trouble... (No, of course I don't. Maybe one in 200? Mhmm. Still too much, I think.)
Four more upvotes and I'm >50k.
 

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