« first day (644 days earlier)      last day (4303 days later) » 

1:11 PM
@Reno How is divorce rate necessarily related to cheating? Are you using a very very broad definition of cheating? (Anyone who has had more that 1 (sexual) relation ever?)
 
1:34 PM
Okay, the guy has a point:
> So basically you removed the content from stack overflow and put it here for page views. Doesn't seem right to me.
> How about creating a stack overflow section for questions like these? meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/73455/…
> -- Guilherme Rdems at July 21 05:31 (Coding Horror comment)
 
Why isn't std::shared_ptr<int> p = (new int(212)); implicitly using the copy constructor as other classes do?
 
@ManofOneWay Well, because it is an explicit constructor :)
 
@ManofOneWay that's formally a copy initiaiization. requires an accessible copy constructor
 
The functional reason is, of course, that you are explicitely transferring ownership of the pointed-to object and you need to make it explicit that you are aware of it, and not just happily accrueing bugs on behalf of broken library design :)
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf But isn't std::shared_ptr<int> p(new int(212)); copy initialization as well?
 
1:39 PM
@Cheersandhth.-Alf Though interesting, that's not what he wanted to know, of course.
@ManofOneWay Just initialization.
 
@ManofOneWay no, that's formally direct initialization
 
Oh of course
It's not the same type
my bad
Then it all makes sense
 
what should i call a real shared pointer class, now that boost and the std lib has stolen the name "shared_ptr"?
i mean one with natural sharing support, non-lobotomized sharing pointer?
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf just, shared pointer but in a different namespace?
 
1:43 PM
@Cheersandhth.-Alf What is lobotomized in std::shared_ptr?
 
What's wrong with the one they have?
 
@sehe well, consider windows api function to parse command line. you get a lot of tiny pointers into one big string that needs custom deallocation. std::shared_ptr is completely unable to handle that, it's lobotomized.
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf huh. how do the tiny pointers into one big string need custom deallocation?
 
for another example, consider creating a higher level string instance from a literal. no deallocation needed. for that case, std::shared_ptr does a completely unwarranted very inefficient dynamic allocation. it's braindead.
 
I'd venture that only the one big string requires deallocation?
 
1:45 PM
@sehe read the docs?
@sehe yes
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf Why? I asked you what is wrong with shared_ptr, not windows API. Not interested in windows API :)
 
shared_ptr can't handle that. it can't automate it for you (which is the whole point). it's lobotomized.
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf So, basically custom deletion === no deletion then? My take is you need to not_use a smart pointer for that
 
or rather, it was originally a sketch of an idea. then that sketch was elevated to library implementaiton
@sehe no, it's shared ownership. shared_ptr is unable to handle that. it's lobotomized.
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf I wholly don't get it. Keep a shared_ptr to the big string, and only LCTSTR pointers to the fragments?
 
1:47 PM
@sehe who's responsible for keeping the the shared_ptr? that's shared_ptr's responsibliity. but shared_ptr is unable to handle that. shared_ptr is lobotomized.
you don't get it,. do you?
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf It's deliciously lobotimzed for my taste then! Everything beyond that would send me looking for proper garbage collection
 
a shared_ptr is meant to automate shared ownership.
 
Ell
hi guys
 
but shared_ptr fails to do that
i.e., it sucks at what it's designed for
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf Who's responsible for holding the egg? That's the egg's responsibility?
 
Ell
1:48 PM
I still don't understand why it sucks after reading your explanation
 
that's not meaningful, sorry
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf What are you implying? I'm just too dumb? Come on, we're above that here.
 
no, you
're being argumentative
i don't hitnk you would have any problem understanding that failing at the design goal is ungood, if you put your mind to it
e.g. you could start by reading the docs, as i suggested
then try to code it up
 
Your only argument is a WinApi function.
 
it's often best way to learn
 
1:50 PM
That's irrelevant.
As @sehe said. he's not going to read docs for APIs he's not interested in.
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf You're trying to focus on that obvious logic, as if it were a given fact. I don't see the fact yet. I'm naturally curious to where you found it/how it arises. That's not argumentative, that's interest
 
You never even gave the name of the function you're talking about.
 
@rubenvb hm, that's lying. one of my two examples so far is a winapi function. you're dumb trying to lie to me to convince me that i've said somethjing different than i have. it's sort of beyond dumb, now that i think of it'
 
wow
 
@rubenvb ¨there is just one. read the docs.
 
1:51 PM
no.
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf I might one day, but it'll probably be way past the point where I could have used the knowledge. Anyways, if you're not interested in actually discussing your knowledge with the room, why mention it?
You're just holding a carrot and then saying: hah - you can't have it huh? Now, find yourself some carrots
It's ok, but don't tease us then :)
 
your second example needs no smart pointer or ownership anyways.
 
i gave you two examples of what you asked for. you refuse to check them out. you refuse to even think about them. you're argumentative. with me! that's dumb.
 
So it doesn't matter in this case.
 
You're assuming I'm argumentative and refusing to think. Thank you very much.
And plonk
 
1:53 PM
@rubenvb a function needs no smart pointers, that's right. pretty dumb to fail to think of an application of the funciton where smart pointers would be nice. they can, of course, be replaced with inefficient copying, which is what is done in practice, with the current lack of library support.
 
The fact your messages are full of typos only alludes to the fact you're having a might fit.
@Cheersandhth.-Alf What's to copy when you have a pointer somewhere to a literal?
 
@sehe you're also doing some pretty idiotic power play here. ;-)
@rubenvb nothing needs to be copied, that's the point.
 
Power? Again I'm curious what power I have, but nevermind
 
I FAIL TO SEE YOUR POINT!
ffs
 
We both fail. That's his point :)
 
1:55 PM
I'm starting to think he's just trolling.
 
I'm happy to fail. Sad we can't discuss it. No one can improve in this fashion.
 
Ell
@Cheersandhth.-Alf what are the names of the functions that I could check the docs for?
 
@rubenvb Not a doubt in my mind he's authentic. He's just a bit impatient and doesn't believe we don't see the obvious truth at a glance.
Well it happens. Sorry, Alf
 
if you start with GetCommandLine than that links to the parsing function
 
@sehe Yups. I'll refrain from discussing this until he's sober again.
 
Inverted markup
 
lol
I hate markup
 
Dat heb ik opgemerkt <-- lame dutch/english pun
 
Is the weak_ptr automatically notified in some way when the resource it's referring to is destroyed? (Other than having to check if the weak_ptr is referring to nullptr)
 
Ell
@Cheersandhth.-Alf doesn't windows own the string it returns?
 
1:59 PM
lol
 
Is a method called within the weak_ptr object, that you can listen to in some way?
 
@Ell the GetCommandLine string, yes, in a way. it's part of the process image. so it can be modified but only up to the original length.
 
Ell
then surely you would just use a raw pointer? or am I thinking about the wrong thing?
 
@ManofOneWay nope, sorry. but i can post a pointer implementation that does. uno momento.
 
@ManofOneWay What would such a notification do?
 
Ell
2:02 PM
You could use a custom deallocator which also acts as a signal/slot thing
 
@ManofOneWay: pastebin.com/4XRYFrWP
it needs another file too
how does one make a git bundle whatever it's called?
 
give the git URL?
 
i remember posting a bundle of files in one go. i don't recall what that's called though. something to do with git
 
$ git bundle create file.bundle master
 
ah thanks!
 
2:05 PM
@Cheersandhth.-Alf Or just gist.github.com (yeah that's likely it)
@Ell I fear you might get scolded for that. It was my point all along. Somehow I missed something in the picture
 
@sehe ah, a gist. thanks!
 
Cheers
(and hope that helps - lulz)
 
@sehe raw pointers aren't bad if they point to stuff owned by a longer-living smart pointer.
 
@rubenvb Well, there might be a twist that I'm not aware off. Still curious
 
2:09 PM
@sehe Tree nodes that point to their parents?
 
parent pointers are indeed a nice example. Although technically, shared_ptr works there, but not without overhead you don't need.
 
@Ell the parsing function's result must be explicitly deallocated
 
Ell
Oh right
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf Thanks
 
Ell
so just hold a shared_ptr to it?
 
2:10 PM
@RadekSlupik Well, that's the usual issue. It is tricky to get node deletion right, but not impossible (See Scott Meyer). Bigger cycles: the same story as with garbage collection, you'd need to use weak_ptrs or detect cycles. This, however, is clearly not the 'lobotomy' that Alf is reffering to
 
@Ell think about passing a command line argument to a function. do you pass a shared_ptr to the raw data, along with it?
 
How often do you have cycles in your trees?
923
Q: Cycles in family tree software

Partick HöseI am the developer of some family tree software (written in C++ and Qt). I had no problems until one of my customers mailed me a bug report. The problem is that he has two children with his own daughter, and, as a result, he can't use my software because of errors. Those errors are the result of...

 
@RadekSlupik Heheh. That was the point you made :)
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf no. Let me dig up my question to that.
You don't pass smart pointers unless you want to transfer ownership.
 
Ell
@Cheersandhth.-Alf you pass a shared_ptr to the function? what do you mean "pass a shared_ptr to the raw data"?
 
2:11 PM
@sehe There was a bicycle hanging in a tree on the schoolplein of het Gertrudiscollege a few years ago.
 
You also don't create shared_ptr's to arbitrary locations in memory.
 
Ell
@Cheersandhth.-Alf I don't quite understand what you mean by "pass a shared_ptr to the raw data"? how can you pass to data?
 
@RadekSlupik Man. That's gonna be my new reference for 'meh' :)
 
shared_ptr<int>(reinterpret_cast<int*>(rand()))
 
Ell
2:12 PM
also I don't have a compiler setup on my windows box atm
 
@RadekSlupik That's evil
@Ell /cue @rubenvb Mingw32/64 downloads
 
1 min ago, by rubenvb
You also don't create shared_ptr's to arbitrary locations in memory.
 
Ell
How do I pass something to data? I don't quite understand how that is possible?
 
@RadekSlupik I know what it was in reference too. Doesn't make it any less evil
 
2:13 PM
 
Ell
you can pass data to functions, you can't pass data to data?
 
bam (/CC @sehe)
 
Raw pointers are also good if you use memory-mapped hardware in kernel mode.
 
@rubenvb @Ell worth the 5 minutes to download/unzip it! Get gcc 4.7.1
 
Basically they are the only option. xD
 
2:14 PM
@RadekSlupik liveworkspace.org
 
@RadekSlupik wait... kernel mode pretty much precludes std::shared_ptr anyway. It pretty much precludes c++ in practice
 
Ell
I tried to develop on windows before, but I gave up and used a virtual machine with linux on it. Then the open was being funny so I dual booted
 
@rubenvb shared_ptr is designed to be passed around, contrary to your claim
 
Ell
now the desktop doesn't work :'(
 
@Ell struct foo { int bar; } baz; baz.bar = 42;?
@sehe Doesn't mean you cannot use owning smart pointers in kernel mode.
 
2:15 PM
@Cheersandhth.-Alf But I say: only pass it around when you need to transfer ownership. No need to increment and decrement the internal count for no reason at all.
 
Ell
@RadekSlupik Oh yeah. I guess I don't see that as "passing" data, I would say assignment
 
@Ell What.
 
@rubenvb that's a bit meaningless other than as an attempt at trying to associate evil practices with whomever you were replying to
 
@RadekSlupik Well, did you try using c++ in a kernel? Kind of hard to pull it off without any library dependencies. It can be done, yeah.. But 'exception safety' is out of the question (because, exceptions are out the question, really)
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus I had a brainfart :L
 
2:16 PM
I've used C++ in a kernel.
 
@sehe @DeadMG had some ideas about sane kernel-mode exception handling a while back.
 
@rubenvb that overhead of argument passing is marginal. but feel free to use globals as an alternative.
 
You can get away with minimal runtime support, if you can live without RTTI and exceptions.
 
Could it be that we see it differently? That might change, but there is really no need to assume stupidity or bad intent
 
@CatPlusPlus My god!
 
2:17 PM
@Cheersandhth.-Alf I'll stick with (const) references thank you. No need for pointers unless interfacing with crappy OS API, and even then.
 
@rubenvb Well, iff I were ever to seriously consider kernel hacking, I'd probably check it out. Because... C :)
 
Ell
@rubenvb how about if you need it to be nullable?
 
@CatPlusPlus What kernel? 3D rendering?
 
@sehe I/O Kit is a C++ framework. :)
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf He's right, no need for a function to take shared_ptr unless it wants ownership.
 
2:18 PM
@Ell std::reference_wrapper.
 
Ell
oh.
 
@Ell boost::optional.
 
@RadekSlupik Nice. Apple really has some nice things going on
 
Is reference_wrapper nullable?
 
@CatPlusPlus I didn't think so
 
2:19 PM
Hmm. Good question.
That might be the issue.
Shit. I so wanted to replace all my raw pointers with that shit.
 
It has no default ctor
You can use boost::optional with reference type.
 
@CatPlusPlus oh he's very very wrong, not to say wrongheaded. shared_ptr is a building block. for example, with g++ you're doing this (except for naming and implementation details) every time you pass a std::string.
 
I think reference_wrapper basically made it easier to emulate '(re-)assignable' refs. That implies you can likely have unitialized refs... but I'm not sure that's an advertised feature
 
hi
what are you chatting about
 
@alcor Do you have eyes? That helps :)
 
2:20 PM
@Cheersandhth.-Alf I don't view it as a performance issue.
 
thanks sehe, very kind of you :)
 
I/O Kit provides metaclasses in C++. ;_;
 
Xeo
@sehe No, reference_wrappers sole intention is to have value-type references
 
It's semantics. void foo(std::shared_ptr<T>); /* takes ownership */ void foo(const T&); /* doesn't take ownership */
 
Xeo
To let the user of a function choose how to pass the parameters
 
2:21 PM
@CatPlusPlus but it is. the only reason for the g++ COW is performance: avoiding the copying. that said, with a good allocator copying strings is statistically faster for "normal" string lengths, but there's no convenient implementation of that around.
 
Standard banned COW for strings.
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf Irrelevant. Within that string implementation, they do want to transfer or share ownership. So, it still stands. At the same time, that's an implementation detail for users of the string class, which is why you don't think of it as transferring or sharing ownership (because... you don't)
 
@CatPlusPlus no, that's just some folks' reading of it, for supporting evil practice of sharing strings among threads.
@sehe huh, wtf are you talkihng about
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf You can follow the response arrows? You mentioned GCC's string implementation
 
A friend of mine made a joke kernel which displays a BDoD on boot up. This is in his source code:
vga_puts("­A problem has been detected and Windows has been shut down to prevent damage to your computer.\n\n");
vga_puts("The problem seems to be caused by the following file: JAVA.SYS\n\n");
vga_puts("JAVA_IS_ON_A_COMPUTER_WHEREAS_JAVA_SUCKS_DONKEY_BALLS\n\n");
 
2:24 PM
@Cheersandhth.-Alf It's not a counter example to the statement "no need for a function to take shared_ptr unless it wants ownership"
 
@sehe yeah, but what you're saying is self-contradictory literally true nonsense. it is nonsense in the context of the threads you're pointing me to. you're taking MY position, and present it as if it were an argument against what i said. that's stupid
@sehe oh yes it is. generally no function wants ownership of a string. it's immaterial and irrelevant whether ownership is involved at the implementation level.
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf Calm. The Fuck. Down.
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf Huh. I'm saying there is really no need to take a shared_ptr unless you want (shared) ownership. You said, literally: "oh he's very very wrong, not to say wrongheaded". I don't see how I'm agreeing then
@rubenvb You go girl. That'll help. I second the motion, but I don't think it will work.
 
@rubenvb i think that wording is perhaps irreconcilable with the implied emotional state of yourself and me? he he
 
I was kind of serious. I'm not the one saying everyone is dumb stupid and whatnot.
 
2:28 PM
@rubenvb it's a bit of lie to imply that i've said that you or sehe are dumb. i have correctly characterized direct failure to grasp simple logic, as dumb. it's just that, dumb.
 
Ell
haha I still don't understand what you guys are argueing about :L
 
@Ell Oh, you think we do?
@Cheersandhth.-Alf You're very close to being plonked.
 
also, failure to simply try things out.
that's often the best way to learn
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf I'm at a loss. "At the implementation level" (of what?) Obviously, that depends solely on what is being implemented. But, I'm getting tired of this.
 
I don't have things to try out cause I don't see the problems.
I have other ways to go about "things". That don't run into your "problems".
 
2:29 PM
@sehe we were talking about the example of strd::string in g++. which uses COW. that is, it uses reference counting. internally. at the implementation level.
 
Ell
std::string uses reference counting?
 
std::string is a value.
 
@rubenvb you should try it out in order to see the problems, then.
 
Of course you take ownership of it.
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf Well, ownership semantics are obviously extremely relevant inside that implementation
 
2:30 PM
@Cheersandhth.-Alf You still don't get I don't know what "it" is, do you?
 
@Ell some implementation do. among them, the g++ implementation. or more precisely one standard library implementation for g++, does that.
 
@rubenvb I think Ell found that out
 
@sehe oh. @Ell: what is Alf's "it"?
 
@rubenvb wtf. are you talking about?
@rubenvb wtf are you talking about? what "it"? why are you ascribing that to me, by name?
 
comedy
 
2:31 PM
@Cheersandhth.-Alf follow the arrows.
ffs
 
Ell
@rubenvb I'm not entirely sure, something about GetCommandLine or similar winapi functions?
 
I don't see how shared_ptr is relevant to string at all.
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf I'm sure you are on to something, and perhaps someday I'll figure out what it was. I'll think of this and think to myself: oh, I see! That's what it was about then.
 
Ell
@Cheersandhth.-Alf what does it use reference counting for? That may be a silly question but std::string isn't in charge of it's own ownership?
 
That'll be a good day.
 
2:32 PM
@CatPlusPlus ooh, I know this one. libstdc++ std::string uses it internally.
 
Topic thoroughly derailed. Now it's about COW, and standard library implementations. Shared pointers nowhere to be found :)
 
@CatPlusPlus mostly it's not. it's the other way. @ruben maintained that you only pass a shared_ptr to a function when that function wants ownership, and he maintained that as an argument that shared_ptr's limitations don't matter for that. but shared_ptr is often used to implement other things. then the limitations do matter, in that context. and in particular for the example that i gave originally.
 
But it's not relevant.
 
Bickerers.
 
Hi
 
2:33 PM
@sehe that's a dumb argument. you followed the discussion all the way down into that example. when you just stated that you lost the thread of it, i gave it to you.
 
Ell
@StackedCrooked hows it going? :)
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf It isn't an argument :)
 
I'm fine.
 
Ell
oh dear :O
 
You cannot not take ownership of values. We were talking about ownership of pointees.
string implementation is not relevant.
 
2:35 PM
@Cheersandhth.-Alf I see the relation, but it isn't the original topic: (non-)lobotomized shared_ptr
 
Guess what: Qt5 builds with MinGW-w64 (at least most of it, I'm not through yet).
That's different from a few weeks ago.
 
@rubenvb What caused the difference?
 
Ell
being fine & a full stop is never good :L
 
Do Qt actively patch portability issues?
 
@sehe probably someone else fixed everything. There's a KDE for Windows project that obviously needs Qt5 for KDE5.
 
2:36 PM
Cool
 
@sehe MinGW is a trouble child, no Nokia dev used it, and MSVS only got some love when it was release time.
 
Besides, AFAIR libstdc++ does plan to get rid of string COW.
 
It was hard to get Qt 4.6 (the one I originally fixed for 64-bit MinGW) fixed up. But they were overall receptive.
 
@CatPlusPlus Yup. Too slow under concurrency. False sharing and synchronization overhead
 
Things break "often", that's the biggest problem.
 
2:37 PM
I had no issues with building Qt with MinGW64?
 
You are asking yourself?
 
@rubenvb Always do. That's exhausting if there isn't enough help
 
@CatPlusPlus No. I made sure of that :) I'm talking about 4.6 (long time ago) and/or 5.0.
 
Oh, right, it's 4.8 now.
 
Anyways, I'm closing the browser for a bit: need to fix my email server
 
2:39 PM
4.7 and 4.8 never had any release not build with MinGW-w64. Only the occasional breakage in WebKit in between releases.
 
Ell
do you guys have "treat warnings as errors" on?
 
@Ell -std=c++11 -pedantic-errors -Wextra -Wall -Wconversion -Weffc++ -Wmissing-include-dirs -Wstrict-aliasing -Werror
 
Ell
missing-include-dirs?
 
And you could drop -Weffc++ if you don't like detail pickings on the rule of three etc.
the first line of that link.
 
Ell
oh right
 
2:42 PM
cosmetic, really.
 
@Ell nope
 
Ell
@sehe why not? Obviously I understand if you are working on a large codebase that already has lot's of warnings
 
Also, I generally hate -pedantic
@Ell I'm disciplined enough to track my own -Wall messages. I just prefer to pick my own priorities, instead having the compiler decide I need to fix this first
 
@sehe I like forcing myself to fix it immediately :)
 
@rubenvb I don't. I like being productive. I do zillions of adhoc tests and I cannot see the benefit in fixing everything upfront while still (re)factoring it. I'll fix all warnings before I commit to the (central) repo
 
2:46 PM
@sehe Ah. That explains it. I'm not productive. I don't have to be. I don't code for moneyz
 
Ahahaha :)
I don't code C++ for money. Currently
 
Ell
who was it working on that build system? o.O
 
:)
But last week I had the fortune of doing some... ANSI C. And it needed to be portable across gcc and MSVC. So -pedantic and -Werror came in handy for me.
 
@Ell me, I think.
 
Ell
@rubenvb how is it going?
 
2:49 PM
@Ell slowly :) I'm trying to decide how to handle command generation. I want a general way to do it for compile+link languages, so I'd only have to write the logic once.
CC + LANG_STD + OPTIM_OPTS + DEFINES + WHATEVER_OTHER_CFLAGS + COMPILE_OPT + FILENAME + OUTPUT_OPT + OUTPUT_FILE
Something like that.
Same would work for any C(++) dialect I hope.
 
Ell
yeah
 
And perhaps fortran too.
 
Ell
anyway i g2g now, I'll be back later
 
cya
ICU Y U HATE MINGW SO MUCH??
 
Solutiun: hate ICU :)
 
3:02 PM
Oh I do.
But fedora and OpenSuse got it to build.
 
ICU doesn't use jQuery. Of course it sucks.
 
It's some stupid tooling issue too. All the sources compile fine, it's just not generating the data library thing correctly.
 
@rubenvb if you didn't mention it previously here, it might be worth searching back in this lounge's history about a week. I remember someone mentioning the same problem (the robot?)
 
3:17 PM
Hello guys!
 
Hello guy!
 
wuts up :-)
 
I'm hungry.
 
Well I'll be damned:
May 10 at 23:17, by Seth Carnegie
I just built ICU as a static library with g++ on Windows and it made a .dll, .lib, and .a for each library
@SethCarnegie: How did you build ICU for Windows?
(hmm, maybe it's a 64-bit issue thingie)
let's check that.
 
I built ICU more-or-less with no problems, but I plugged it into my own build system.
 
3:26 PM
32-bit I take?
 
@CatPlusPlus MinGW too?
 
Yes.
Your 4.7.0 build.
 
Is your build system easy to get?
 
3:32 PM
Well, are you in Kyro team?
I didn't do anything fancy, just followed the instructions in ICU docs.
 
nope.
I really am doing something wrong.
 
http://pastebin.com/KRqj73VV - files to build
-DU_COMBINED_IMPLEMENTATION -DU_COMMON_IMPLEMENTATION -DU_I18N_IMPLEMENTATION -DU_LAYOUT_IMPLEMENTATION -DU_LAYOUTEX_IMPLEMENTATION -DU_IO_IMPLEMENTATION - required defines
I build it as one big static library.
 
aha.
But let me get this straight... I indirectly contributed to Kyro?
 
Well, we told everyone to get your build, so yeah.
 
Kewl.
So even @DeadMG is using GCC?
 
3:39 PM
@rubenvb For what?
 
@DeadMG Kyro
 
well, I wanted to use VS, but that's not really practical
 
You guys could also try Clang(+libstdc++) if you want, but that would be restricted to GCC 4.6.
and 32-bit.
 
good afternoon
it's silent today
 

« first day (644 days earlier)      last day (4303 days later) »