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12:00 AM
Note about domain ownership: don't use an address on the domain itself as the admin contact. :-/ If you do, then transferring won't work, because they send you confirmations on an address you do not own! Catch-22.
 
12:43 AM
("why don't you just change the address before the transfer, you ask?" Good question. 60 day registrar lock on contact info change, which undermines the reason you were updating the contact info from an address on the domain to off it in the first place, which was to enable a transfer.)
So it seems to me either the domain transfer process should be bulletproofed especially against this scenario, such that the admin contact via an address on the domain is guaranteed to be considered as part of the transaction of the domain...or they should warn you to never put the admin contact as an address on the domain itself.
 
 
3 hours later…
3:42 AM
>> do <r3-legacy>
** Script error: invalid argument: [
    {Exit the current iteration of a loop and stop iterating further.}
    /return
    "(deprecated: use THROW+CATCH)"
    value [<opt> any-value!]
]
** Where: append r3-legacy* if if --anonymous-- do
** Near: system/contexts/user compose [
    unset?: (:void?)
    unse...
 
@rgchris Oops. Thanks!
 
(just synced)
Would be nice if you could stick <r3-legacy> in the needs header to be run before modules called in needs.
Would be a disqualifier as and when <r3-legacy> is dropped too.
 
@rgchris Yes, the <r3-legacy> is very much a hack based on the module system not being something I knew how to deal with. Lots of code I didn't exactly understand. It's gotten untangled a lot, and I feel like it was a lot of...er...sound and fury without really tackling the crux of binding, which has been a thematic complaint of mine.
In my view, what all this has done--be it the module system code or the HTTP/TLS code--etc--is provide a corpus of code to think over. It was all wrong, but it's something--and if it's wrong, then what would be "kind of like that...but right."
You should be able to make the legacy definitions simply a dependency of some modules, while running others that don't use it.
@rgchris Hopefully this will take care of that: github.com/metaeducation/ren-c/commit/…
Remember that, in the hybrid loop proposal, there is no BREAK/RETURN or analogue. Breaking a loop makes it return a blank.
You could build such a construct, but you would also have to update the loops you wanted to respond to it.
 
4:02 AM
@HostileFork Will check, but managed to get my piece of code running without legacy :)
 
 
1 hour later…
5:26 AM
First pass at an HTTPD scheme for Rebol 3. Is based on @earl's 'Tiny HTTP Server' with a view to providing a more abstract interface. Remarkably seems to work with Ren-C and Rebolsource. The link above contains an example invocation.
5
Basic premise is:
wait open [
    scheme: 'httpd
    port-id: 8080
    awake: func [request][...response...]
]
Can even do:
server-1: open [
    scheme: 'httpd
    port-id: 8000
    awake: func [request][...response...]
]

server-2: open [
    scheme: 'httpd
    port-id: 8080
    awake: func [request][...a different response...]
]

wait [server-1 server-2]
It is not fully featured at this time!
 
5:50 AM
I have a couple of motives for doing this. One is I'd like to see an out-of-the-box HTTPD scheme that is easy to get going as a webserver in Rebol should be and this is the proof-of-concept. It's very hackish—I'm not 100% sure how/why it works. I'm not convinced AWAKE is the best place/name for such a key component, it was just a pragmatic choice for this iteration.
Having some default handler for wait open httpd://:8080 would be nice too.
 
 
2 hours later…
8:18 AM
@rgchris Neat!! I definitely think the how/why is less important than whether you're happy with how the source is expressed.
I still wonder just what the mechanism is by which functions allow blocks to be turned into schemes. Why is it that open and read will allow a block, and then turn that block into a PORT!? Should everything that takes a PORT! also be willing to take a BLOCK! as a kind of "automatic cast"?
 
 
1 hour later…
9:48 AM
@rgchris note if you're not familiar with Node.JS, the name they use is handleRequest blog.xervo.io/build-your-first-http-server-in-nodejs
 
Hmm. I thought rebolbot was able to provide help without the need to use try.rebol.nl
 
10:48 AM
posted on January 05, 2017 by hostilefork

The evaluator skips over BAR!s, so that DO/NEXT does not see them. They are considered conceptually void and "opt-out", so that do [| | |] is a void, all [true | true] is true and, any [false | false] is false. This raises the question of how they should be treated by a REDUCE operation. Originally, since a REDUCE was merely moving along in DO/NEXT steps, they would be omitted from the r

 
11:01 AM
@rgchris In the concepts kind of sifting around in my head, I've wondered if spaces and newlines in a linear sequence of symbols are a kind of "universal"...and if the goal is to set up a parity between blocks and strings in other ways, that making _ and | the block-oriented versions of these makes sense.
When initially complaining that code like rejoin [(if flag ["("]) some-thing (if flag [")"])] would treat the resulting nones from IF as content, I also complained about this with COMPOSE, and suggested the nones should vaporize. With COMPOSE BrianH was insistent that it was frequently necessary to put placeholders into slots in blocks, and that hence compose [a (something-evaluating-to-none) b] needed to put the none there, for positionally oriented output that needed 3 slots.
Ren-C has addressed this with the new "unset is not an actual type" reimagination as void, solving the results of common constructs like IF and SWITCH and CASE to be void if no branch taken. So COMPOSE now works as BrianH wanted, while providing the "vaporization"...
So I kind of do want the BLANK! to get its chance here, and to ask that question of whether not only do linear BLOCK! sequences need a space-like and newline-like item, but should the system-level mapping of blocks to strings treat them that way. I know it doesn't seem totally pleasant to turn print ["The value is" x] into print ["The value is" _ x] or print ["The value is " x]... but...
...there is a non-imaginary cost to the auto spacing and inconsistency in these "not actually a dialect" situations, and maybe a benefit to starting to see this blank-as-space as a separator, so you're not only getting the space but also an evaluation barrier...adding something of a safety net.
So print ["The appended block is" _ append block _ "and the..."] would not just get the spaces, but be an error for not having all the arguments to append. It may not be as bad as you think.
 
 
2 hours later…
1:19 PM
0
A: What is the difference between `context` and `object`?

DocKimbelcontext was historically introduced in Rebol2 as a shortcut to make object!, and to better signify the intent of using the object to provide a definitionally scoped namespace for organizing user code. object was added in Rebol3 in order to provide a more natural name for the shortcut and be more...

 
 
4 hours later…
5:45 PM
posted on January 05, 2017 by DideC

To my understanding, only font/style facet needs to be handled as a block! if several styles words are provided. No other facet in font!, nor para! object has to handle more than one value. With the exception of /state and /parent maybe, but there are managed by low level code AFAIK, not by VID functions. It must fixe #2269 and fixe #2380

 
 
1 hour later…
7:02 PM
@HostileFork Almost. Again, I don't fully understand the processes involved, e.g. is EVENT/PORT in AWAKE-SERVER a clone of the TCP port? Why do you add a READ (past tense) handler that port than a READ (present tense) handler, and does that need to be exposed to the user? Or indeed how when you WAIT on the HTTPD scheme, it still responds to the TCP subport. All good questions for SO, I'm sure if any of the people that understood these things were active...
But would very much like to establish the AWAKE function as: server: open/with httpd://:8080 function [request [object!]][...]
Or just a block: server: open/with httpd://:8080 [probe request ... response implicit ...]
@HostileFork Not sure, but has always been thus. Indeed, I believe it's more the other way around—blocks are the normal for READ and OPEN, urls are converted to blocks primarily. Was almost a requirement for POP and FTP schemes where the buggy URL form was not flexible enough for certain server settings (such as email addresses as usernames). I've used this a little more fancifully in my REST Protocol.
 
@rgchris Well traditional object languages would lean more like make server! [...] and you would not be trying to overload open in this way. Rebol seems to desire overloading and pattern-based dispatch, where you keep adding patterns, yet that is not how it's written.
 
Is it overloading? Isn't this OPEN's only function?
 
I don't know. I don't know what the scope of a port is.
If the clipboard is a port, is there something special about one function you'd register to be a "/with"? If CALL is a port scheme, etc. What all does a port do or not do?
 
@HostileFork It was seeing a Node.JS example that prompted the thought—why hasn't this been the norm in Rebol since forever.
@HostileFork I see what you mean.
Well, I wouldn't be averse to two different block processing modes—one, perhaps determined by an opening SET-WORD! that works the traditional way, otherwise is processed as a dialect.
 
7:17 PM
If I am to understand ports, in the context of some existing thing, I'd have to understand it as an analogue to something like Boost.ASIO
 
Which brings us back to the usual problems with dialects in the core language—consistency of evaluation.
 
But the concept I'd say is different is to say that it works not just with binary data, but streaming blocks, from one Rebol to another.
But I haven't seen such a port, which seems like the most important kind of port.
 
7:34 PM
@HostileFork Looks similar, not certain. I think I need to look again at Rebol 3 Events to get a better understanding of why my code works.
@HostileFork Isn't this the niche Rebol/Services tried to fill? Also too, Rugby. I don't see why that wouldn't be an straightforward wrap around of a TCP port though.
@GrahamChiu Help, yes, but not code evaluation.
>> print "I'm working"
 
@rgchris The big thing with boost.asio and the streaming stuff is just being able to wire them together as pipes, so you can build a stack and layer on encryption/decryption transparently or things like that. I guess I'd need to see a good working incremental example showing a client and server sending Rebol data, and using parse on the PORT! data, and if it went through a chain or two like boost.asio that would be good.
 
Something like: peer: open reb://localhost:1234 | write peer [something] | response: read peer ?
 
@rgchris Yup, something like that.
parse peer [some 'something]
 
7:51 PM
@HostileFork Wouldn't that be possible if PARSE worked on ports/streams? As it stands, PARSE doesn't work, say, on a MP3 file opened in SEEK mode that would allow you to extract the metadata without opening the whole file.
 
@rgchris Well, that's the point, that if this is going to be interesting you should be able to do such things.
Needs some kind of buffering limit; you could default to keeping as much as necessary for your last worst-case-scenario backtrack point, but then you could limit it further than that.
 
@HostileFork That you're not able to do that specific thing is a limitation of PARSE though. The other part—passing blocks around via TCP or UDP is relatively straightforward (albeit I haven't tried that specific example since early Rebol 2).
 
Well, I haven't tried it, but it does require understanding things like whether a write to a port that isn't block oriented will stringify by default... or if it reduces... or what.
So basically I'm just asking "what is a port"; is there such a thing as a block oriented port, what kinds of conventions do you use.
Does the user expect the block to be implicitly REDUCE'd, or implicitly COMPOSE'd, or is it all different?
 
For the most part, a port is whatever you want it to be. It'll return whatever you specify in the ACTORS object. Doesn't have to be tied to TCP or any IO mechanism.
 
@RebolBot source help
@RebolBot delete
 
8:00 PM
@GrahamChiu Ah, forgot about that!
 
@rgchris I thought I put help in as local, but I guess not. Just source.
 
@rgchris If you feel like really writing down a "philosophy of PORT!" I'd read it, the bit of experience I have with it was when @GrahamChiu did the SL4A port and I found that it was a slippery thing to deal with.
 
@HostileFork and of course it's all gone from my brian now
 
I wanted to get at the notion of simple equivalences, read some://scheme/url => p: open some://scheme/url | result: read p | close p | result. Stuff like that.
But it wasn't even that simple, you had to do things like double-open sometimes, sometimes not
@GrahamChiu Help does print spew, doesn't return "help structure". There should perhaps be a HELP-OF which is the underlying data retrieval, then formed and output by the HELP console command.
 
@HostileFork bad factoring
 
8:07 PM
Here's a minimal port that just returns a reversed block:
sys/make-scheme [
    Title: "Reversal Port"
    Name: 'rev
    Actor: make object! [
        write: func [port [port!] data][
            reverse compose [(data)]
        ]
    ]
]

probe write rev:: [foo bar]
 
Is @earl ever returning from wherever he disappeared to?
 
@GrahamChiu As recently as August 31 he was writing some Python, so maybe that's what he's using now...
 
@HostileFork no github activity since then.
It's very bizarre. Has anyone talked to him?
He's one person who understood all this port! stuff
And does he still have the keys to the kingdom?
 
8:26 PM
@GrahamChiu Well sometimes if you recognize something is kind of wasting your time yet you are invested in it, quitting cold turkey is the best thing you can do for yourself. Maybe that's just what works for him.
 
So, he gave up on all computing?
 
@rgchris Something like that, yes, I know there's not a whole lot of magic.
Or more accurately, "no magic".
@GrahamChiu One can go a pretty long time without pushing something to GitHub specifically.
I'd suspect more likely gave up on Rebol, chatting, etc.
 
oh well, speculation doesn't help.
 
8:44 PM
@rgchris If you were willing to give the HTTPS or TLS code a bit of a going over to understand it, it is written in Rebol... and could use some love. It doesn't get a lot of love from me, mostly just "fix it if it breaks".
2
And maybe that would be a good informer of what it can and can't do, how it breaks down, what kinds of improvements it needs if the port model were rethought.
 
9:19 PM
ad Earl (Python), BrianH (Ruby) - a single word - SAD!
@GrahamChiu - Earl was a prominent Rebol guru, really. During the Brno Red Devcon, he showcased R3 Emscripten port, a secret project we were not supposed to talk about, as it was suppoed being released - well - soon.
I just wonder, how anyone with such high profile of knowledge, can dissappear the next day
 
@GrahamChiu I had short contact with earl asking to share the logins with the community: "Dear Arnold! rebol/rebol is Carl's repository. I suggest you talk to Carl instead. All the best, Andreas" He went on, still likes Rebol but busy with other stuff.
 
I can understand person being busy. But I can't understand such person joining the other crowd
 
@pekr Looks like those thing happen more often en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_the_lucky_stiff
 
Well, shit happens :-)
I might work 14-16 hours a day, being overloaded by my primary work, co-partnering work, photo studio work, but never even I would deny what I regard being my philosophy.
E.g. with BrianH, I knew he was asked to rewrite Ruby 1. He was still with Rebol. Then he got some job, and went Ruby-active, because he used Ruby at work ... for me - just a shitty excuse
No wonder Doc thinks Red needs new blood - old time Rebol gurus are gone ... maybe for good?
Hopefully you can feel, I am really upset about all that :-)
 
9:41 PM
@pekr What would those new blood guru's have to add to the language?
 
@HostileFork Perhaps—I don't use the straight-up HTTP scheme so much any more, rather so many more times I need the Rest-like responses. It's one of my targets to address before making the jump to Rebol 3 (current estimate, sometime around 2022).
 
It's not about new blood gurus, just about new users joining the effort. Sometimes we are too much tied to the gurus and authorities, that's all.
@iArnold - as for me, I welcome 10 new users positively looking into oportunities, instead of chasing old time gurus around :-)
 
@HostileFork Ok, did a (not so) quick adaptation of the Ping/Pong example in order to exchange blocks. Seems to work. Will have to find the time to break down that code though.
To clarify, the adaption is to convert the examples to Schemes. So on one instance, you open the pong server (open pong://:8000) and on another, you interact with it (write ping://127.0.0.1:8000 [a block to be reversed]).
I made it as elementary as I know how, will need to learn more to see if I can crunch it even further.
@pekr I think we need incentives to get new blood—we should crowd-fund (as much as we have a crowd, or funds) a prize for doing some such project in Redbol, whether the entries are useful to the effort or not. The current incentives (great language) don't outweigh the challenges (anemic community codebase) otherwise.
 
10:09 PM
@rgchris - I am not sure what you mean by crowd-funding. I sponsored Red by 50 EUR/month for quite some time. Then some conrete developers. As I can see the situation - what can we actually co-fund, to get things moving faster?
 
@pekr I mean crowd-fund a prize—say $100 for a piece of code, or something. To try and attract new users.
 
Ah, you mean kind of bounties?
 
Was thinking more of a contest, but bounties too I suppose. Could put a bounty on fleshing out that HTTPD code, or on a better HTTP client.
Or some libs for Red.
 

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