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6:43 AM
@rgchris Well, in the classical saying of "the exception that proves the rule" do you think maybe your bias against blank is due to lack of familiarity vs pure aesthetic principle? I mentioned how Haskell uses _ as a pattern "blank", e.g. "*" in a wildcard way. (Don't care what's in this slot of the pattern)
I think _ as "don't know what's here" is more semiotic than *
 
7:21 AM
@HostileFork The _ in place a.k.a fry, was inspired by that convention of hakell gist.github.com/geekyi/844a15e506ce9c6b12a83e78df750295
 
8:14 AM
>> foreach url [google.com ddg.gg github.com] [print first read join https:// url]
^-- Maybe that's not supposed to work?
(actually can't connect to try rebol right now)
That probably wouldn't work with github anyway. Rebol2 manages to give an ssl error. Red works. Rebol3.. I'm not sure networking works, but gives an error about redirection
(I was trying out doing gists for those who were curious)
 
 
1 hour later…
9:43 AM
@GrahamChiu Renamed remark to markup and demo-remark to demo-markup
 
10:08 AM
@GeekyI Interesting...well, in Ren-C I used that as the literal form of "none" but I call it BLANK!
So what R3-Alpha represented as #[none]
As a part of speech I like "none" as a word in the family with "any" and "all", so none [1 = 2 | 3 = 4] is true. The biggest thing I don't like about the name "blank" is how close it is to "block". But "nothing" is the next potential contender, though it is long. But shorter than SET-WORD!, so I might be too quick to think it is a long name.
I would not accept FRY!. :-) Note also in Ren-C, PAREN! is GROUP!.
There's been a goal about making all this naming very remappable and having a "semiotic" basis, e.g. paren!: group!: #[()] or something like that.
 
 
2 hours later…
12:42 PM
@RebolBot alive?
 
>> foreach url [google.com] [print first read join https:// url]
Something fishy there, good catch @GeekyI ... should come back right away with an access error (https is not implemented in R3)
@RebolBot alive?
 
@MarkI Implemented in Ren-C however redirects aren't supported by the protocol.
 
Noticed Ren/C accepts set-word! a->b: but refuses it as a word! -- so you can assign a-->b: 1 but not retrieve back it.
>> a->b: 1 a->b
 
12:47 PM
@HostileFork Sorry I do not know this, but is that because redirects can't be supported or because they haven't yet been implemented?
 
@giuliolunati What do you mean?
 
@giuliolunati That's a scanner bug ... @HostileFork has been staying away from modifying the scanner in order to let me do it.
 
@MarkI Not implemented. This is the http implementation, and anything not in there is not done: github.com/metaeducation/ren-c/blob/master/src/mezz/prot-http.r
 
@HostileFork Gotcha, tx.
 
@MarkI The plan is to admit a->b as legal word?
 
12:50 PM
No no no NOOOOO
Sorry did I say that out loud? :) I think HF might actually want that.
 
@MarkI I don't know if I'm as against it as I might have once been.
Clojure allows things like that.
 
IMHO a name as 'html->tex was useful ....
Alternative are 'html2tex 'html-to-tex 'tex-from-html. Any comment?
 
@giuliolunati I'd use html|text for that
 
@giuliolunati Not with the 2 in it, I think that's not "literate"
 
@MarkI Interesting, but ambiguous: | may be -> or <-
 
12:55 PM
Right, you have to pick one of left or right dominance as being understood
 
Also html»tex is valid (only as set-word)
 
@giuliolunati I am not currently ruling out names like html->tex, I think the new tag proposal with <{tags like this}> opens up some space and that > and < can be more free in words, and perhaps I've opened up to <{}> being empty tag and keeping <> as a word/symbol despite its "taglike look"
<{!-- html comment --}>, --> would be a word
It's worth thinking through the consequences of all these things though.
 
 
2 hours later…
3:01 PM
@MarkI @GeekyI Looks as if try.rebol.nl is down.
@HostileFork Aesthetic instinct, I'd say—looks badly weighted.
 
 
2 hours later…
5:16 PM
posted on January 04, 2017 by porteus

I am a first time user of rebol on linux. I normally use MS windows I downloaded the rebol and use the tar command to extract the files, then I call the rebol executable, but it gives me error 'command not found'  .  anybody can help me find what is wrong ? what did i do wrong ? I tried the same with the view rebol version, same error. Linux porteus 4.9.0-porteus gue

 
 
3 hours later…
8:14 PM
@rgchris anyone know how to contact Kaj?
 
@GrahamChiu He visits about once a month on AltME, unfortunately that was yesterday.
 
@iArnold oh well, we need a backup backend for rebolbot/redbot
 
@GrahamChiu That is called the REBOL and the Red console.
You can cut and paste results ;-)
 
8:38 PM
@iArnold so you're volunteering to stay here 24/7 to answer all rebolbot queries?
 
That sounds terribly painful ç____ç
 
8:58 PM
@Morwenn Happy New Year. What's up?
 
@HostileFork Hey, happy new year to you too :)
Nothing much, I've been working in the same company since March. What about you?
 
Traveling, still. Already mentioned to you I visited StackOverflow. I don't know if I've really done that much else notable. :-) But still trying to solve Rebol's weird design flaws.
loop 1 [
    f: function [x] [
        either x = 1 [
            loop 1 [f 2]
            x
        ] [break]
    ]
    f 1
]
@Morwenn Which loop do you think the break should break?
 
@HostileFork It's a lifetime project :p
 
@Morwenn There may well be that many flaws :-)
 
@HostileFork With traditional scoping, I'd say a break shouldn't be able to break a loop outside of its function, but...
 
9:05 PM
In definitional scoping, I say it should break the outer loop.
 
@HostileFork It's more like you can spend an incredible amount of time trying to find the most elegant and consistent way to fix it :p
@HostileFork I'd hardly see it break a loop while it doesn't look like it's inside of it either anyway.
 
It "looks" to me like it's inside only one.
@Morwenn Here's an interesting thing: trello.com/c/uPiz2jLL
 for-both: function [
      'var [word!]
      a [block!]
      b [block!]
      body [block!]
 ][
      all [
          for-each var a body
          for-each var b body
      ]
 ]
With the rules outlined, that "just works" for chaining the return values, and propagating BREAK
Language design for the masses :-)
 
Oh while expressions?
 
Yep
@RebolBot
n: 0
while [n < 2] [
    n: n + 1
    n * 10
]
@Morwenn Oh, tryrebol down eh? Well, that's an expression that evaluates to 20
And under my rules, if the loop never runs at all, it's void. And if it's broken, it's a blank (which is "false-like") value.
And if the loop completes and is either blank or false, it is forced to a truth-like value.
 
So basically, it is supposed to return the last computed expression, unless otherwise specified?
 
9:15 PM
Basically. Some loops don't work that way because their product is an aggregate across the evaluations.
 
Eh.
 
Like map-each. Makes a block of all the loop return values.
map-each x [1 2 3] [if x != 2 [x * 10]] => [10 30]
So if the body evaluates to a void, it doesn't add to the output (corrected)
 
Ok.
 
map-each x [1 2 3] [if x = 2 [continue/with [foo bar]] x] => [1 [foo bar] 3]
map-each x [1 2 3] [if x = 2 [continue] x] => [1 3]
map-each x [1 2 3] [if x = 2 [break] x] => _ ;-- a blank
@Morwenn Anyway, I want it to be easy for people to invent new loop features. Things like "redo" to do the loop condition again without running the condition, or whatever. They might have to patch all the loop constructs they want it to work with, but I want it to be very much a usermode thing.
Make your own loop kit, where the loops aren't any weaker than what's in the box.
 
Which looks doable in the language :p
 
9:23 PM
@Morwenn Oh, other new feature, "user natives": github.com/metaeducation/ren-c/blob/master/tests/misc/fib.r
The body is a string of C code.
And TCC is compiled into the executable--so still a single binary that can run that.
 
Doesn't that require a JIT?
 
That comment should be updated, you don't need libtcc1.a anymore
 
@HostileFork fry is actually an unrelated concept.. this actually. I think place (or another word opposite in meaning to collect) is a better name
For _, "blank" seems like a good name
 
@Morwenn Anyway, it's one of the benefits of how low-level the implementation is being kept, that it can be notably extended without a heavy-handed compiler.
@GeekyI Vote recorded :-)
 
@HostileFork Sure :)
 
9:31 PM
@Morwenn Oh, other new feature... UTF8 string pointers can be discerned by their first byte from pointers to Rebol values or series. It's a little sneaky.
 
Looks like some hardcore optimization right there again x)
 
So this means through C API, you can write a variadic like rebolDo("append", block, "[value1 value2]"); or somesuch. There's a bit of questions of termination.
In the cleverness department, I thought up rebolDo("[", "append", block, "[value1 value2]", "]"); or with sneakier "loadable" logic rebolDo("[append", block, "[value1 value2]]");
 
@rgchris did I break it? I only checked if tryrebol only after I posted the code. Also, it didn't crash the interpreters I was using
 
But pretty fancy to be able to embed code like that in C
 
I didn't realize @RebolBot is still alive
 
9:37 PM
@Morwenn It was you who informed me you can't terminate variadics with NULL in C
 
@HostileFork Seriously? I probably just read the documentation at the time. I totally forgot that it was illegal.
Too many rules ^^'
 
Well, most of the time you get away with it, if integers and pointers are the same size and 0 and NULL have the same underlying representation.
But it's always these weird backends like emscripten or whatever that take advantage of the standard to do something interesting, and we want to be able to build on that kind of thing, so...
 
I guess it's the kind of thing that's ok until the day it fails and you don't understand why.
 
@Morwenn Yup. Anyway, I still see this as being kind of a "game", I do want to get back into the code golfing with it...and I think that, especially if some of the Achilles Heel stuff can be mitigated then it's going to be something a new generation of programmers will be able to have fun with.
 
Rebmu back into the game.
 
9:45 PM
Not looking forward to going back and patching all the old solutions for the changes last year (!) :-/
(This week on, "how to drive yourself crazy-er"...)
@GeekyI Did you ever see Rebmu? stackoverflow.com/a/3110684/211160
A code golf dialect (in which all lower-case ANY-WORD! and PATH! are treated as normal code, and mixed case ANY-WORD! and PATH! has special rules)
 
@HostileFork I did see a talk by a Bulgarian(?) Dr. Rebwhatsis
 
@GeekyI His ethnicity and accent are somewhat elusive to pin down, for some reason :-)
 
"Download app from qr code.. without internet!" ;P
 
Someone will have to do that at some point with Rebmu or Redmu
 
I may be able to test rebmu now that I have ren-c.. I think it was a requirement when I looked at it.. but a Redmu would also be interesting..
stroke beard
 
9:52 PM
@GeekyI I need to patch it up, like I said, and make sure all the samples I solved are working again.
Several Ren-C changes have been geared toward more sensible chaining and composition
If people get enough experience with the Red macros Ren-C should add them too; languages with "point-free" composition of functions tend to be strong in code golf
Also some stack abstractions in the box, so you memoize a bit and aren't always naming variables but working by the position in evaluation.
 
10:05 PM
@HostileFork concatenative you mean?
Factor is nice like that, you have combinators for metaprogramming
 
@GeekyI This one seems to be getting low scores quite a lot: github.com/DennisMitchell/jelly/wiki/Tutorial
 
@HostileFork because it's based on j
 
With dialecting I think it will be possible with a very small library size to embed a few little mini-languages that use these tricks.
So you just sort of draw on the dialect that fits the problem the best, extract the results, maybe pipe it to another dialect that is good for another part of the problem.
And have an overall footprint that isn't anything like having to carry a full implementation of every language/interpreter/compiler for the N different languages.
 
I'd say because j is pretty strong on array programming and higher order functions you get function inverses for free in it!
@HostileFork But the pigeon hole principle! You can't use a compression algorithm.. and always get a smaller output
 
@GeekyI More like the golf bag principle. The right number of different clubs for the game, but not so many you can't carry the bag.
 
10:13 PM
@HostileFork Jelly is probably as small as you can get for math related puzzles.. Actually it has an advantage by bending the rules, it's not ascii.. and the rules measure the number of characters
@HostileFork I think I understand what you are trying to say.. a bag of magic tricks
 
@GeekyI Programming dichotomies, food for thought: codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/36114/57
 
@HostileFork If you were to take it to the extreme, you'd probably get en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_lambda_calculus ?
 
@GeekyI Er, maybe. I dunno. I just notice the composition language might be a good idea to exploit in a "function composition dialect" or something.
Ren-C has variadics, so it's possible to pass "arrays" to functions without using BLOCK!
Saving you the [ ] of overhead (also able to do one unit of lookahead at the pattern of what's being read in, so you can "terminate" via convention instead of needing some special way to end the variadic)
 
@HostileFork arrays are not necessary, but help in multidimensional algorithms.. the way it is implemented in J is very elegant.. terse, even more so than others like matlab, but..
this is what you'd have to implement to get concatenative style. Actually a subset of that..
But going further along that, I'm ending up with the fry combinator, and then even further..
 
10:34 PM
@GeekyI Well if this stuff interests you, and you would want to be doing some Rebmu code golfing, I can raise the priority of whipping that into shape. I needed to do it anyway
 
..until you end up on square one, with the normal type of code? http://docs.factorcode.org/content/article-locals.html
You're doing value - level a.k.a normal programming in a variable free, i.e. function level environment
@HostileFork Sorry yes, but I don't have the time right now. Perhaps in a few days.. most definitely the next month
 
I'll keep you posted. I am sadly still "guru meditating" on how print should work, and I need to write up why I am pretty sure the auto spacing in print of today is overall a bad idea.
 
@RebolBot alive?
 

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