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6:00 PM
So let's all of it decay and start over from an apocalypse (with or without zombies)
 
user4639281
@JAL Looks to be a server configuration question to me
 
I would think it's not, but I don't dare disagree with a mod.
 
@JanDvorak sissy :-P
 
JAL
@JanDvorak But that's what meta is for!
 
6:02 PM
@JAL Yeah, it's borderline. DNS is a fuzzy area. It's kinda server but kinda not
 
"Whether any future driverless cars will be well designed remains to be seen."George Bailey 4 hours ago
 
@JanDvorak current driverless cars are well designed so I'd say no it doesn't
 
@Olaf I'm still trying to give them perspectives, it's all beyond my behalves now.
 
JAL
Flagging for spam, promotion for mysite.com and site2.com :P
 
@πάνταῥεῖ: Yes, I was also told I'd become less "engaged" with the age. But the opposite is true actually. The older I get the more similar patterns I notice and the more upset I get about youtube.com/watch?v=yzLT6_TQmq8
@TylerH: Yes, the Teslas are indeed nicely designed - optically. Re. the software I better don't state my position about that here.
 
6:09 PM
@Olaf you think the software is bad?
 
rene is typing
 
it is probably the best software out there by leaps and bounds, not least of which because it learns from a distributed node and can receive updates OTA
 
@Kyll you're giving away our secrets!
 
SD notifications are acceptable, don't remove them from SD
SD notifications are noise / useless, remove them from SD
 
user4639281
rene is copying and pasting
 
6:10 PM
what are SD notifications?
 
@TylerH You can register with SD to get pinged when it makes a report
 
rene is now leaning back and smiling, and his work is done
 
user4639281
the ping at the end of the report for users who wish to be notified
 
@TylerH There has recently been an analysis for the ministry of traffic in Germany. That raises some very vital questions about their quality (I don't talk about stability!).
 
@Cerbrus see the star board, we keep that for 24 hours. The outcome of that is final
 
6:12 PM
@Olaf I also saw the bundesrat voted to ban the IC engine by 2030
was that vote contingent upon a review of quality of current self-driving cars at all? There are after all non-IC, non-autonomous vehicles
 
@TylerH Not sure what you mean with IC engine. But the Bundesrat is definitively not in the position to ban something.
 
IC = Internal Combustion
arstechnica.com/cars/2016/10/… <-- Bundesrat vote to ban IC engine by 2030
I assume the ministry of traffic reports to them
it's obviously more complex than that but it's still a powerful statement
 
It might be worth noting that in Germany there is no overal sped limit on the Autobahn. Driving with 200+ km/h is much different from relaxed cruising at ca. 130km/h. Not to forget our towns and other road-system is likely less car-friendly than in many parts of the US.
 
user4639281
@TylerH External combustion engines are not as cool as internal combustion engines for sure.
 
@Olaf Yes I'm aware of that, not sure how it's relevant. I've been to Germany, and seen how traffic tends to work in cities. Definitely more pedestrian and bicycle-friendly than the US
 
6:17 PM
@TylerH Not a bit. Hope that one is correct (didn't verify: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesrat_of_Germany)
 
@TinyGiant Yeah, travel by external combustion sucks
 
But anyway, computers and cameras can make decisions and process information from practically infinitely more sources at practically infinitely higher speeds than humans can. That is not really debated by anyone. Autonomous car safety would be even more apparent at 200kmph than at 130kmph vs human-driven cars, if anything
Obviously they're not level 4 autonomous yet so humans are still expected to have control and touch the wheel, and autonomous driving cars are designed currently to only work at certain speeds (and only go a certain speed above the posted speed for the road, in nearly all cases)
 
Well, that's just a vote. It has to make it to a law first, passing Bundesregierung, Bundesttag, etc. IOW: There's the car-lobby of VW, Mecedes, BMW, Opel, Ford, etc. before that.
 
Bah, I've already rode 210 km/h on a highway and lived to tell it
 
but you guys should use proper driving speed measurement, MPH
 
6:19 PM
driven by a human
 
"But anyway, computers and cameras can make decisions and process information from practically infinitely more sources at practically infinitely higher speeds than humans can" - Pardon me, but that still is plain wrong!
 
@Olaf no, it's not
 
@Olaf no, it's not
 
Why does migration CV have so few choices for other stackexchange sites?
 
humans have a very well-known reaction time
 
6:20 PM
No camera can make those complex decisions a human can.
 
@rene Personally, I'd have worded the "acceptable" one as "useful".
 
a human can be 100% for a few hours at most, then it drops off very drastically. A machine can be 98% ALL THE TIME.
 
@Olaf complexity is not a part of the quote
 
in fact in foot races if they react faster than a certain speed to the sound of the start gun, it is ruled a misstep
 
I'm sure plenty of people can tolerate the noise. In that way, they are "acceptable"...
 
6:21 PM
Yes, they have, but are you aware how many operations that involves? Try autonomous cars are heavy rain or snow.
 
@Cerbrus I had that in my initial revision but it didn't survive at the eind-redactie
 
@Undo But only humans give it 110% ;)
 
@Olaf We'll figure it out
 
Like Jan said, complexity was not considered in what I said, which is further evidenced by my line about autonomous cars not being Level 4 (full autonomy) yet
they are only Level 2 (though I think Tesla considers theirs Level 3, I can't recall)
 
There is a reason autonomous cars are mostly tested in California (US, not Germany).
 
6:22 PM
@Tempux Migrate? Or what?
 
@rene Frankly, I'd like to see a single good reason to keep them. A single reason that proves there's a practical reason to have those notifications in here.
In all of the discussions about them, I've never seen any.
 
full autonomy might not be the best choice. Even for humans.
 
As Undo just said, eventually our software and hardware will become refined enough to handle all the complexity required for driving, and no one in serious discussions discounts that that will also probably include a requirement to improve roads in certain cases
 
@Olaf Part of it is that... that's where the autonomous car companies are. Part of it is weather, yes, but remember that there's an economic incentive to get these things to work well in snow.
 
@doug65536 those are determined by site moderators and community managers. The list is short because those are the sites that we know accept questions from SO. A lot would rejected them.
 
6:23 PM
@Olaf Is there a California in Germany?
 
@Undo If you just drive some hours, those additional 2% can safe lifes!
 
Hello!
 
@gunr2171 ah, okay. thanks
 
@Olaf That's not how statistics works, actually.
 
And yes, the reason is that that state has provided allowances and passed laws and given credits and incentives to Tesla and other self-driving car companies like Google
 
6:24 PM
@TylerH Check it out. I once drove there from Hamburg (Germany) by car :-)
 
@Undo what database does Smokey use and is it possibile to have a dump of all table definition? I'm think about the NATO stuff (we could store to same structure and clone metasmoke)
 
not to mention they have some of the worst traffic in the country in their cities
@Olaf I think if you say California without qualifying the country, it's safe to assume we will guess you mean the US ;-)
 
@PetterFriberg Smokey stores minimal data.
You're probably thinking of metasmoke
 
@Undo: If you are in a car with the computer crashing your car at 200km/h, you give a sh* about statistics.
 
@Cerbrus it probably doesn't help that I'm not bothered by it, at all. If it is split here as well, we'll see what we do with it.
 
6:25 PM
@Olaf Yes, I do, because I know that some very smart people decided that it's safe to a reasonable margin to go 200km/h in these conditions.
 
@Olaf If you are in a car with a human driver crashing your car at 200km/h you don't give a shit about statistics either
 
@Olaf that's why we're not letting interns build self driving cars
2
 
@Undo Yeah was think of how we could use your work on metasmoke on all the NATO post..
 
@gunr2171 Oh, oops... locks door to the intern room
 
@TylerH Depends where you live. Maybe the few ppl living in the small town of Kalifornien (DE) think different :-)
 
6:26 PM
This is opposed to my possibly-drunk human driver deciding that it's a good idea to go 200km/h, which I trust much less.
 
@Olaf they can stuff it, they copied our name :-P
 
@rene Just to be clear, I don't mind one or 2 users being notified. But last time, the list kept growing. We intervened at 6. If we didn't, I'm sure we'd have had 12 users, today.
 
Also, yes it's not legal on any public road in the United States to go 200kmph
 
Thanks
 
6:26 PM
so a human should never be driving that fast
 
@TylerH: I'd not bet on that. Actually, the US copied our names: Berlin, Hamburg, whatever ;-)
 
@Cerbrus I know where you're coming from.
 
The name California originates from the Spanish conquistadors, after Califia, a mythical island paradise described in Las Serges de Esplandian by Garcia Ordonez de Montalvo, ​a Spanish romance written about 1510.
But yes the US copies lots of names, too
 
Maybe an additional description for those votes:
 
@TylerH except where they keep Native American names after getting rid of the Native Americans near the place
 
6:28 PM
grep us_city_names.txt /^new /
 
Regarding the removal of SD notifications: The notifications will only be removed from this room.
^ idea?
 
@TylerH: Well, a human at least can do. Because he has much more prediction and does not just rely on algorithms. If I speed-drive at 200+, I'm much more concentrated and try to predict other's behaviour. I did not say it is relaxing. But then, if there is not too much trafic, it is fun - for some 10 minutes.
 
@TylerH The name New Hampshire originates from the English town "Hampshire", and "new", from the fact that colonists had an ego.
 
@Cerbrus There was never any debate about that, and it's not SOCVR's decision
 
Mkay
 
6:29 PM
@gunr2171 no, it originates from the UK not having the foresight to call their version "old Hampshire"
 
So, since this is an election, which of the sides is the douche, and which is the turd sandwich?
 
was there ever a "ye ol Hampshire"?
 
@TylerH It actually is just a part of a town en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schönberg,_Plön which is much older than 1510 :-P
 
@Undo when you have time speak some with ArtOfCode my basic idea is that we setup same structure as you and in some way clone metasmoke to use it on all NAA answers, once @BhargavRao is in if you think is possibile we can have a chat.
 
6:31 PM
@PetterFriberg Sure, just fork it and remove the non-applicable stuff
I could probably host it.
 
@tripleee nope
 
@gunr2171 Hampshire ain't a town
it's a county
 
Look, I'm fine with making wild accusations and not fact checking beforehand.
That's the american way
 
@Cerbrus don't you love democracy in its full glory?
 
@JanDvorak How about "New Amsterdam"? Sounds like lack of imaginative power finding new names :-)
 
6:33 PM
@Undo Ok great, thanks
 
Really, USA should pick on with the "shire" notation so that they wouldn't have to use the "D.C." one.
 
@rene "He doesn't suck as much as the other one" *Vote*
 
o.o
 
@ArtOfCode Much like York?
 
Washington is a city in Columbiashire, and not to be confused with Washingtonshire.
 
6:34 PM
what are sd notifications?
 
@Olaf York is a town. Well, a city. Yorkshire is the county.
 
@JanDvorak Washingtonshire
Ah, bear me to it
 
23 mins ago, by NathanOliver
@TylerH You can register with SD to get pinged when it makes a report
 
@ArtOfCode Oh, yes, sorry for that.
 
ah
does it no longer publicly report? :(
 
6:35 PM
It still does
 
yesterday, by SmokeDetector
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer: what is the best way to be on top position in google search results by Guberish on stackoverflow.com (@dorukayhan @PraveenKumar)
as an example
 
@rene maybe link to the ticket next to the election board for context? github.com/Charcoal-SE/SmokeDetector/issues/195
@Compass ^
 
@tripleee meh
 
hmmm. well, isn't the easiest way to opt out just ignoring him? <.<
 
@Compass: (my) problem with those notifications is that, the more users that use it, the more messy the reports get.
 
6:36 PM
i guess the question is make it opt-in or opt-out
 
@Cerbrus What material damage does that cause?
 
@Olaf We seriously need to have a ministry of silly walks in 1st place
 
@Compass no, the question is whether they should be turned off for this room by software / policy / whatever, or tolerated
 
@Compass it is not our feature, we are using it.
 
@gunr2171 Can you imagine SO with car programming questions? Gives a whole new meaning to "crashing code"
2
 
6:37 PM
@Undo Physically? None, but that really isn't an argument to keep it.
 
@Machavity :)
 
@Cerbrus No, I mean "actual problems caused"
 
Do we have user statistics for SD? Like is SOCVR one of the "big users"?
 
Please, give me 1 good practical reason the notifications are useful in this room.
 
@Compass This doesn't make very much sense as a question.
 
6:38 PM
@Undo Reduced signal-to-noise ratio.
 
OK, I've made a userscript that sets my house of fire if SD notifies anyone again. Now there is material damage to be had.
4
 
@Cerbrus I've considered turning them on, it's nice for when I only have SO and Blue Room open.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ We already have a ministry of dumbheads. We really need another one for the mentally retired?
 
(also, standard procedure: Onus of proof is on the one requesting a change)
 
@Undo: By the time you read a notification from this room, the report is usually handled already.
 
6:39 PM
@Cerbrus yeah, usually I'm the one handling it if I'm around
 
@JanDvorak tempting Can I still get a beer from you when I'm the root cause of your house burning down?
 
Not from being notified in here, though.
 
Do(of)brind is already funny enough to watch and listen to.
 
@Olaf we need a ministry for every silly topic :P
 
His house is on fire.
 
6:40 PM
@Cerbrus Not yet, but the signal/noise ratio is low for me because I open SOCVR every time anyone posts anything.
 
Because immediately after he posted, SD posted a notification.
 
@Compass No. He posted a report.
 
I have no idea what the differences are.
 
!!/notify 41570 stackoverflow.com
 
@Undo Notifications are disabled for this site.
 
6:41 PM
@Undo I'm not sure what you're trying to say there.
Look, my point is that I really don't want those reports to end up notifying a dozen or more people. If that's what they want, then there should be a room just for SD reports, where people get get pinged all they want.
 
@JanDvorak huh? there was a notification after Undo's "I've considered turning them on" comment
 
@Cerbrus Sitting in the queue processing flags. SOCVR lights up with a (1), which I see in my peripheral vision. There's about a 15% chance that it's a Smokey notification. Which translates into an 85% chance that my workflow was interrupted unnecessarily.
 
o/ everyone
 
Well put, @Undo. Well put.
 
@Undo Looks like there should be a different room just for SD reports, then.
As this room, by it's very nature, isn't 100% SD reports.
 
6:44 PM

 Charcoal HQ

Where smoke is detected, diamonds are made, and we break thing...
 
^
 
@Cerbrus Overhead on that is far higher than the overhead of... like a hundred chars on the end of messages.
 
@Undo How is that overhead higher?
 
because it's a whole new room, which I have to join and open a tab to and manage Smokey code for.
 
6:45 PM
@πάνταῥεῖ I guess so
 
You're telling me smokey needs custom code for separate rooms?
 
That's like... seven characters, isn't it? As in, "34859, "
 
@Cerbrus Custom code, no. More chat rooms, meaning more chance to bump into rate limits, errors joining, etc.? Yes.
I have no issues with enforcing, or letting ROs enforce, removing people from notifications when it's obvious that they aren't around any more.
 
@JanDvorak "34859, " is 8 characters (in C)
 
@FirstStep Well, they were asking for it literally :P
 
6:47 PM
I do have issues with completely removing a used feature on stylistic grounds.
 
@Undo I'd rather have SD not notify inactive people, automatically, as per my original FR
 
@JanDvorak I hope you have a smoke detector to let you know if Smoke Detector sets your house on fire
 
@Olaf note those quotes were outside the code block
 
@Undo Misused.
 
@Cerbrus Give me a technical solution with minimal overhead and I'll merge it in.
 
6:47 PM
so is the issue entirely related to tagging users on the end of a smokey report?
 
lots of effort to discuss this very minor issue, let the Smokey guys concentrate on developing to find spam
4
 
@Undo I'd have to learn python.
 
@JanDvorak: I anticipated that already
 
@Undo check the user wall?
 
@Cerbrus that message reads as if you're worried about other people being notified? O assumed the whole point was the length of the message, right?
 
6:48 PM
@Undo I sent a PR to ChatExchange a while ago to give us activity data, but it hasn't been merged yet.
 
What's the current debate about?
 
@rene The point is the length of the message
 
@JanDvorak Not good enough, doesn't take into account folks sitting in, i.e., Blue Room and not joined SOCVR because they're lazy.
(afk 10m)
 
@Kyll SD notifies like 6 people. Cerb wants it to be 0
 
*notified
 
@Cerbrus OK
 
@Kyll it is about this , what are you up to?
 
6? It's 2 currently. Sometimes 1.
 
I don't think you want to notify people too lazy to join the chat
 
Undo is afk for 10 meters :p
 
6:49 PM
The point is that, if we allow anyone to register for the notifications, the list will keep growing, even if people are inactive.
@Tunaki Used to be 6
 
@Tunaki it is 0 now, and the vote is to keep it that way
 
@Drew Hahaha
 
@Cerbrus slippery slope, much?
 
Vote is a tie....
 
@Tunaki I haven't voted yet ...
 
6:50 PM
I want to undo my vote.
 
@rene You'll misclick.
 
Last time, there were 6 people being notified. Those 6 registered within a month of the first one finding out about the notify feature.
 
rene is voting
 
Slippery? maybe
But not unrealistic.
 
I have undone my vote.
 
6:50 PM
Nor did my socks
 
doesn't flag Rene for sock-voting
 
i voted for both since i honestly don't care either way.
I thought it was for something else entirely initially
 
m2 :D, just to star something...
 
@Compass yeah, the voting committee realized that mistake after the vote started ...
 
Heck, make it a generous guess. If it took 2 months for 6 people to !!/notify, how many will we have in 4? 10? in 6 months? 12-14? When do we tell people "Enough is enough"?
 
6:52 PM
We will return to dictatorship after this experiment is finished
5
 
Or cap it at 3 and be done with it
meh
no
 
@Tunaki Which 3?
Who gets to be notified? :P
 
@rene I can be happy for that now!!
 
@Kyll you will have to
 
Why the heck do we like to bother Charcoal with this?
 
6:53 PM
Frankly, it's absurd that SD notifies anyone that registered, even if that user hasn't been active in a week. (And it does).
 
because we can
 
@PetterFriberg Because it affects our room.
 
@PetterFriberg it is payback time
 
@PetterFriberg They are on a quota. After <secrete number> post they must pay the troll.
 
6:55 PM
@C meeh, @r sounds more resonable
 
Just to be clear, the argument is that it should be disabled because in the future lots of people could register themselves, and that will do too long messages in chat?
 
@Tunaki That appears to be the argument
 
@Machavity but that is not where we are voting for
 
@Tunaki That, and @tripleee made a good point on github:
> "users who are constantly notified by the room by way of automation become effectively unreachable because they will learn to ignore any pings from the room, automated or not."
 
@Cerbrus strongly disagree. Smokey pings have a very specific structure.
 
6:56 PM
And the fact that inactive users get notified is simply noise.
 
@Machavity You can vote multiple times in that; I just voted for "Waffles" 3 times
 
@Cerbrus well that's their problem. If they register to ignore pings...
 
@Cerbrus Again, I am not opposed to the idea of letting ROs/Charcoal people manage this. Inactive users is an irrelevant argument.
 
@NobodyNada Well go make your own poll then. With hookers and blackjack no waffles
 
@Cerbrus yeah, but the problem with that statement is that I'm now deciding for others if that is a good or bad thing. It is their inbox, not mine, or yours or that of @tripleee
 
6:57 PM
@PetterFriberg we no longer bother them, they implemented the exemption for SO already
 
@Machavity just select "IP Duplication Checking"
 
@tripleee Will likely be undone and possibly re-implemented differently, depending on the outcome of... whatever we're doing here.
 
@Undo okay, ack
 
I understand every user has the right to get flooded with notifications, if they so wish. But why does it have to come from this room?
 
@Undo ... what are we doing here ...
 
6:59 PM
Can't we have a third option to vote for? "Let the dev team of Charcoal do as they like"
2
 
On the contrary: Why does it have to not be this room?
 
@PetterFriberg Nevah
@Undo Because it's noise.
 
Why decentralize it?
 
@PetterFriberg eh, not thrilled with that idea.
@Compass ?
 
Noise for whom?
 
6:59 PM
@Compass They can get notified from the charcoal HQ
 

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