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3:00 PM
heartbeat.it() -- FTFY
 
^^ yes
 
heartbeat.beat_heart()?
 
@Kevin I'll throw a Flask / SQLAlchemy / Celery framework together at some point. If you push your models to a branch I can incorporate them.
 
poke came here hoping for some serious suggestions. Silly poke
 
@idjaw I’m perfectly happy with how this turned out.
 
3:00 PM
:D
 
yaay
 
And I’m going with pulse
Gives me a nicer name for my reactive subject too.. pulses is nicer than beats
 
@davidism Ok.
 
I wish I could remember where I bought this jam. Raspberry, cherry & chocolate. It is fine.
 
Interesting. Docs does not let you click the rep number to see how many upvotes/downvotes there are.
 
3:02 PM
@Kevin @davidism @anyoneElseWhoIsInterested if ever you want to have a prolonged discussionabout sopython-dev topics (for instance if chat is busy and you want quiet away from lolcats and snark) then we have a room here chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/115967/sopython-dev
 
@ZeroPiraeus That sounds beautiful.
 
I'm currently rocking the star board in there, 2 for 2.
 
@idjaw afaik there are no downvotes
 
</3
 
3:04 PM
@poke hmmm....so the idea is that you edit to make it better, instead of downvoting?
 
I think so
Not that I agree with it
 
@idjaw But then people get rep for crap. So no.
That might be what The Man wants you to do though.
 
You can't comment or downvote. Only edit
So if it is crap, and you only have time to provide some friendly advice on what to do to improve it...tough luck. You have to go in and make all the changes
and if you can't...then it remains in its crappy state
OK....great
 
utterly shitty shit in C docs
you think the Python docs are bad...
 
@idjaw Or you press down and give a request to improve?
 
3:06 PM
all the ppl whose every question is downvoted and closed as MCVE and so on, are now "contributing" to docs.
 
@poke Yeah...I need to dive deeper on to playing with docs before whining
 
oh, I looked at C - not touching that
 
@idjaw Word of advice? Don’t.
 
I'd second that.
 
Third
 
3:08 PM
Yeah....so far seems like a $%&* show
 
When I first joined SO it was easy. Write a good question, get answers and upvotes. Write a bad question get downvotes and no answers
SOD are like exactly the opposite of that
 
^
 
Every communication that I've seen is along the lines of: "You guys are smart, you'll figure out how SOD is supposed to work! It will be great! We'll have some garbage, but we'll totally clean it up!"
Except that's exactly the opposite of how it should work
SOD is like the Quora of SO -_-
@Ffisegydd I don't know, I tried to create a documentation request for how to use documentation but I created the request in the Xamarin.iOS documentation? So I don't even know how to do that :(
 
@WayneWerner I really want to quote that in Docs chat.
 
Do it
 
3:13 PM
Hero.
 
SO was amazing because rather than asking developers how QA might work, they said, "How do we make a QA site that doesn't suck?" and then they did it
 
haha
 
SPACESHIP!!!
 
Documentation has sucked so bad because rather than saying, "How do we make a documentation site that doesn't suck?" they said, "Hey we'll make a documentation site and you guys figure it out!"
 
3:15 PM
in Documentation Public Beta, Jul 22 at 19:06, by davidism
When so many questions are being brought up and "wait and see" is always the response, it starts sounding more and more like "we didn't put thought into it so we don't have a clear response". This is why I'm unhappy with seeing that response everywhere.
 
Hi @PM2Ring, just saw your comment. Lol
 
which one?
 
@Morgan and @Antti both gone for the same title, nice.
 
Bah, Antti stole my title.
 
:D
 
3:19 PM
:D:D:D loool
 
@AndyK Yeah, which comment? I've written a few today.
 
@Ffisegydd we're all so like-minded on SOD here.
 
@PM2Ring @poke about the chap who did not do his due-dilligence and got -20
 
I do not get Z's "Cassandra"
 
@AndyK Ah, right.
 
3:21 PM
I love Zero's role
 
Cassandra (Greek: Κασσάνδρα, pronounced [kas̚sándra͜a], also Κασάνδρα), also known as Alexandra or Kassandra, was a daughter of King Priam and of Queen Hecuba of Troy. A common version of her story relates how, in an effort to seduce her, Apollo gave her the power of prophecy—but when she refused him, he spat into her mouth to inflict a curse that nobody would ever believe her prophecies. In an alternative version, she fell asleep in a temple, and snakes licked (or whispered in) her ears so that she could hear the future. (A snake as a source of knowledge is a recurring theme in Greek mythology...
I assume.
 
@AnttiHaapala Perfect prophecies - cursed to never be believed
 
> Cassandra became a figure of epic tradition and of tragedy.
 
Or he's a nosql distributed database.
 
or that
:D
 
3:23 PM
I've never heard of teams before. What is it?
 
That pretty much sums it up actually
 
hey I should be working, not laughing.
 
@poke I wonder if that's why they named her Cassandra in Wayne's World
 
Alright...time to buckle down and do what I'm supposed to do for the rest of the day
rbrb all
 
I’m afraid I don’t remember Wayne’s World well enough anymore
@idjaw sleep?
 
3:25 PM
(I wish...) work
lots of stuff to get done today
 
I see, good luck then, rhubarb!
 
thanks! rbrb
 
@KevinMGranger Join the largest team on SO: stackoverflow.com/teams/50/sopython-community
 
I have a cousin named Cassandra. She's a lovely woman, but I've often wondered what possessed my auntie to burden the poor kid with a name like that.
 
There are worse. Pandora, for example.
 
3:27 PM
It's a nice name! "Cassie" is a nice nickname
So... what does it do
 
@KevinMGranger you've already experienced everything Teams has to offer.
It shows up on your profile, so I guess there's that.
 
It's a Top Priority Product, much like docs.
 
Great, I can add that to my resume. "Knows how to use Stack Overflow Teams"
 
cbg
 
3:29 PM
Hey, BR.
 
For Teams read Self-Inflicted Advert Targeting
 
Oh wow. How old is this? "it is useful to archive your source code using a version management system like [RCS]."
 
@PM2Ring I rather liked Cassandra in Only Fools and Horses.
 
Dave's wife?
 
3:31 PM
yerp
 
@IntrepidBrit according to wikipedia, its successor was CVS. So, not recent :)
 
bluefeet is reprimanding davidism in docs chat :D
 
Where where where?
 
3:33 PM
in Documentation Public Beta, 1 min ago, by bluefeet
@davidism you're creating a non-constructive team.
 
yeah, lol
 
in Documentation Public Beta, 4 mins ago, by bluefeet
@davidism valid feedback is fine in chat or on meta - that's just not constructive or valid
even more so
 
in Documentation Public Beta, 1 min ago, by davidism
OK, since we're going there, could you give an example of a constructive team and how it's constructive?
 
I'd actively stop contributing to docs for now until they get the shit fixed
 
"Constructive" is just a nanny word for "I don't like what you just said"
Like "appropriate"
Doesn't explain what's actually wrong
 
3:35 PM
the constructive here is exactly the wrong word.
 
Should add sopython.com/wiki/Documentation_Issues to the team description
 
it is not constructive to tell us "you're not behaving constructively"
 
@AnttiHaapala indeed
 
in Documentation Public Beta, 2 mins ago, by Undo
Really, I've been amazed at how smoothly the Docs launch has gone. Consider that it's a new feature being launched to thousands of people who... aren't used to new features. And they're developers, which really only means they're really good at breaking things.
 
@RobertGrant Oh dear lord. Was RCS just "saving your file to disc", if it's less rudimentary than CVS?
 
3:36 PM
Either way, I'd call on Donnie Darko to explain how destruction is just another form of creation
 
we're behaving non-constructively because our constructive criticism is being ignored.
 
Therefore it's fine
 
@davidism touché
 
Bye everyone
 
Zero holding back and being politically sensitive like normal I see.
in Documentation Public Beta, 1 min ago, by Zero Piraeus
@bluefeet When an idea is fundamentally terrible, and furthermore a danger to the success of the wider project, opposition is the only constructive response.
 
3:40 PM
xD
 
stick it to the (wo)man
 
in Documentation Public Beta, 3 mins ago, by bluefeet
@davidism sigh I'm not going to argue with you but how is creating a team to be critical of a product, any product, constructive... period?
 
@Ffisegydd :-)
 
^ shouldn't that be questionmark, not period?
 
Yeah I really don't understand her argument there at all. Banding together to oppose/criticise something sensibly is absolutely constructive.
Whether you criticise as a team or individually, they're both constructive.
 
3:42 PM
Critique Everything
 
Again, it's just a nanny word one more sophisticated (although used with the same simplisticness) as "negative"
 
"we've decided to exit the Union. Now be constructive" :D
 
lol all of the criticising messages were deleted
 
I wonder if they are going to delete the team…
 
I pretty much assumed they would
 
3:45 PM
I also wondered that.
 
it seems to be the current attitude
 
@vaultah where?
 
policy, whatever
 
This feels a bit like when the Django people make a change
 
@poke in this room. All messages discussing that team got deleted
 
3:47 PM
Both of which feel like that Doctor Who episode with those big smiling plastic faces that turn into angry faces if they see something they don't like
 
If I recall that episode correctly, it was a futuristic Brexit of sorts
 
@RobertGrant What don't you like about Django's approach to changes?
 
Oh wow yeah they were.
 
Wow, that’s just terrible @bluefeet @Undo
 
3:49 PM
Now that's constructive
 
I thought it was fine to talk about it in chat?
 
... and now the team is deleted :-)
 
It is
It just might get deleted after you talk about it
 
I am currently supervising someone making an iOS app by cargo-culting from SO. Doesn't understand basic control flow. I feel Docs is definitely going to help.
 
@MorganThrapp I wonder at what point do they think, "Are we the baddies?"
 
3:52 PM
@ZeroPiraeus apparently I can see deleted teams, interesting! Totally didn’t notice that different background
 
Nothing says "this was a great idea" better than criticism of it by the users being deleted.
12
 
@JRichardSnape if you switched the language and that would be basically every intern I work with anymore
 
@RobertGrant Hopefully eventually? I'm not confident though.
 
@ZeroPiraeus wat
are they cleaning the transcript?
 
Yeah
 
3:53 PM
that doesn't sound like Undo:/
 
I think they read 1984 and thought it was amazing, but they picked the wrong side.
A bit like how Sheldon roots for the sun in The Snowman
 
@JGreenwell Yeah, tell me about it. I feel like a Swift expert now, having seen some of the competition ;)
 
Fun fact: Those that can see deleted content can still interact with the team. I can even edit the description…
 
I cannot
but that's okay, and why I set my title to "research"
 
was there a team that got deleted?
 
3:56 PM
I guess I missed a lot, Anyone has a Tl;Dr?
 
I can still see it, but I don't have view deleted privileges on SO.
@BhargavRao Docs are bad. People are mad. Mods are deleting stuff and making us sad.
9
 
man, too bad I can't stay right now for the drama
 
@BhargavRao SO docs suck, we all hate it. But we're sarcastic, so that works out ok
 
@MorganThrapp That's poetic.
 
@BhargavRao Thanks. :D
 
3:58 PM
@BhargavRao someone created an Anti-SOD team, some people joined it. Then mods and CMs deleted all mentions of that team across all chatrooms and deleted it.
 
@poke maybe edit in a link to the sopython page on docs
 
@vaultah Wow, They created it on the SO Teams?
 
yeah
 
@vaultah Oh wow, I totally missed that part
 
I really want Docs to succeed, but I really don't like what it is or how it's handled currently. I was really excited to use it as a way to replace the "snippets" part of the Flask website.
 
3:59 PM
@vaultah Heh, That's so so awkward.
 
@davidism that was my first thought as well
 
@vaultah man...
 
Jul 22 at 9:18, by Robert Grant
I vaguely remember Flask had issues with keeping docs up to date because it was mostly $flask_author doing them and no easy way to break it out, so this could solve that, perhaps
 
@RobertGrant done
 
3:59 PM
:)
 
@vaultah that message will be deleted soon I guess ;-)
 
Link is on the sopy wiki, item 15, outside of reach.
 
@poke +1
 
Adam Lear♦, former member, requested this team to be deleted 13 mins ago.
 
Jul 22 at 10:42, by PM 2Ring
I see there's been another day of fun with the Emperor's New Docs.
 
4:03 PM
You can still join the team I think
 
hehe how about we all get banned from stackoverflow for a month :D
 
That's some nice civil disobedience. That's what Ghandi would want.
Speaking of "are we the bad guys", is it possible that the rebels are the good guys in FTL?
 
@davidism Nothing about docs ever excited me - but then again I wasn't ever really using the snippets section - pretty much only when I clicked a link from Google
 
@AnttiHaapala most productive time of my life
 
I forget what the third summoning word is for tristan
 
4:05 PM
@WayneWerner I wasn’t ever exited either. I was mostly worried from the beginning…
 
exactly, it would solve a shitload of problems at once.
 
docs would have been better had it been a collection and better way to describe and organize SO questions
every category on Docs could/should be a SO question anyways
 
@enderland yeah I agree
The fact that it's totally separate from Q&A is bizarre
Sets up rival documentation site that does link to SO Q&A
 
That would have actually been a good thing - maybe with commentary on the questions/answers, if necessary
 
there should be a way of turning stackoverflow account offline for a forced period of time
 
4:07 PM
Something like the canonical page we have would've been awesome.
If docs had been that, but sitewide, I think everyone would've been ecstatic.
 
Hmm - I thought some of the Python examples were bad. Then I had a look at MySQL.
 
:D
@JRichardSnape then, what did you expect?
 
@AnttiHaapala you mean like banning yourself?
 
Perhaps SO Docs is just a way of stress testing the SO brand
 
> Some folks are getting time outs, I suggest you chill and ...
 
4:08 PM
well, without rep change.
 
@AnttiHaapala True, true. I should learn from your enlightened cynicism ;)
 
So yeah, their way of fixing docs is to silence all the complainers. Nope, can't possibly backfire.
 
just think about who'd want to write documentation for mysql... all those 1 rep PHP/MyISAM custom web page solutioneers who now finally have a chance to gain some rep.
 
3 of our ROs are suspended for disliking SOD
 
Suspended?
 
4:11 PM
I am getting an error here when passing the value as 1e-6 from the command line...What is the correct way to parse numbers raised to powers of 10...?
 
@RobertGrant temporary, I guess
 
121
Q: Documentation Update, July 25th

Kevin MontroseAs part of the Documentation Beta, we’re going to be doing a series of meta posts (and blog posts in all likelihood) with what we’ve learned, and what we’re planning to change accordingly. These posts will normally be about once a week, but since we just launched last Thursday we’ve already got ...

 
From where, though?
The SO site?
 
@RobertGrant SO chat site
They can speak on SE Chat site
 
Oh, wow
 
4:13 PM
Looks like davidism and poke. I didn't see a third, though.
 
wher edo I get the ban
zero
 
Zero also
 
I too want to be suspended
 
For speaking where?
 
in SOD
 
4:13 PM
Poke, davidism and Zero are suspended for 24 hours from chat
 
@deostroll a ValueError? That seems to work fo rme
 
For daring to criticise SOD in a way that certain mods didn't care for.
 
I too want to be suspended
 
yes, ValueError
 
All of chat, or just that room?
 
4:14 PM
all chat
 
Perhaps they should set up a helpline where people can report potential dissenters for processing
 
see room info-> their profiles
 
$ python divergence.py 5 1-e6
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "divergence.py", line 48, in <module>
    main()
  File "divergence.py", line 43, in main
    precision = float(args[1].strip())
ValueError: invalid literal for float(): 1-e6
 
@RobertGrant Darn commies.
Could be your neighbor. Could be your gasp family!
 
@deostroll Perhaps you meant divergence.py 5 1e-6
 
4:16 PM
@deostroll The - should be after the e
Kevin'd again
 
ah, my bad....
 
I am still not suspended
 
Oh. Wait.. what's happening here...! I just came here bcse of @poke tweets...
 
Man, this whole thing REALLY makes me want to volunteer my time.
 
I'm failing at making decent applications.
 
4:20 PM
Did he just complain about the passive-aggressive snark, and then be sarcastic in every single response thereafter?
 
oops seems like @WayneWerner was called "what's the capital of Syria" :D
 
Hell it was my sarcastic idea and I'm not suspended.
 
Remove rep from docs, All will fall back to place
 
I too want to be suspended, I've got a deadline tomorrow, I wonder why I was singled out... — Antti Haapala 15 mins ago
 
4:34 PM
I was the one who linked to the free speech zones wiki page in response to "You can complain about docs in the place we feel like letting you" and I'm not suspended either.
 
Damn, The last line there.
> I was even in the process of helping someone who now is probably thinking I abandoned them.
 
@MorganThrapp That made me laugh.
 
That implies that the main purpose of SO is lost. :(
 
> The second thing is, we know docs is a good fit for SO.
3
Wait, we do?
 
Someone thinks they do.
 
4:42 PM
Hello?
 
Howdy!
 
Zero! You're back!
 
in Documentation Public Beta, 35 secs ago, by Sklivvz
@RockPaperLizard almost all criticsm, by it's nature, is unactionable
 
That was weird. I was floating down this tunnel with a light at the end of it, and then bam! Here I am again.
 
Suddenly everything makes sense.
 
4:43 PM
@ZeroPiraeus Welcome back to hell cabbage
 
@ZeroPiraeus hey me too
 
@AnttiHaapala, @Ffisegydd: I suggest you both don't push it on the Meta post.
 
@MartijnPieters :D
I am serious about the deadline
 
@MartijnPieters :P I wasn't going to push it anymore, but it's a valid idea - my joke spawned this show and I'd take responsibility for it.
 
a week-long ban would be welcome
 
4:45 PM
I'm pretty sure I'd get employee of the year with a month long ban.
 
yeah
and it'd be good for my blood pressure
@MartijnPieters so someone flagged my comment as offensive/obsolete/rude?
 
@AnttiHaapala yours... pretty much was
 
Saying people are "pushing it" sounds like a strange point of view when engaging with volunteers' comments
 
@MartijnPieters seriously I've been considering about making a feature request for locking one's stackoverflow account for a set period of time.
 
If they were employees, then that'd be different
You can be as Draconian as you like then
 
4:52 PM
@AnttiHaapala yet that comment does not come over as serious.
I removed it.
Damnit, train connectivity foiling me again.
 
@MartijnPieters it is part joke ofc, but really I'd have not minded the suspension
the discussion's been really civil but...
staff is overreacting it seems
we're not even the customers of sex inc; we're its product :D
 
I can easily understand how a siege mentality may have developed within SE Towers over this whole thing. I'm actually pretty impressed that cooler heads prevailed re: the chat ban.
 
They're just reiterating who owns the means of production...
 
@JRichardSnape now you're pushing some Zero buttons
 
4:58 PM
Heh, I am quite aware that we're operating within an oligarchic capitalist framework here, comrade ...
 
@ZeroPiraeus Yes same. I feel for them as it's difficult when you've got such an open (and close) community and a lot of people are slating it.
 

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