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2:01 PM
"Yes, but are there any important differences?" you hypothetically ask. None that I am aware of, no.
 
@JRichardSnape Sorry, Richard, I wasn't forgetting about you. :) As I said earlier, I used some Python scripts (that I wrote several years ago) to build those patterns. But it is fairly easy to load bit patterns "by hand" into those glider memory loops.
 
I'll worship like a dog at the shrine of your lies
I'll tell you my sins and you can sharpen your knife
Offer me that deathless death
Good God, let me give you my life
loving this song - haven't heard it in ages :)
 
It's weirdly upbeat.
 
See, I wanted to like that song, but his voice during the chorus just bothers me. He's a little better live, but not enough.
 
user559633
boo i am i failure
 
2:08 PM
@tristan umm.. chemical bros?
 
That's what I've been listening to. Slightly NSFW.
 
user559633
@JonClements haha no, daft punk
 
bah... always get those two muddled up :(
 
user559633
it used to be my go-to back when i used social networks (besides github or stackoverflow) and someone was posting song lyrics and
 
2:09 PM
Is there a way to interact with an 'interactive' CLI in python? I keep finding how to make one, not how to interact with one
 
@Programmer, subprocess.communicate? I could never get it to work, myself
 
There's also a third party lib... What's it called...
 
user559633
like pexpect? seems to be popular for people that don't want to use os or subprocess
 
Yeah, that's what I was thinking of. pexpect.
 
2:11 PM
@tristan Daft punk truly are masters of lyrical poetry.
 
Hmm, thanks
 
user559633
@MorganThrapp you can tell they're writing from the heart
 
Music chat. I am looking for a tinkly instrumental piece that has appeared in a handful of films, usually when something quietly uplifiting / spiritual / mystical is occurring. I thought it was in Field of Dreams but my googles have been fruitless.
 
user559633
unrelated, twerkbot
 
@tristan The lyrics to Robot Rock have always spoken to something deep in my processor soul.
 
user559633
2:14 PM
 
If all else fails, I'll just listen to Pandora's Nature Sounds radio for a couple hours until it rotates back in
Related: is it possible to see a list of the songs you've recently listened to on Pandora?
 
@tristan took me a second lol
 
@Kevin If you go to the options for a station you can see recently liked/disliked tracks. I'm not totally sure if you can see all of your history.
 
user559633
 
2:18 PM
Yeah, I didn't "like" it though unfortunately
 
user559633
Just keep listening -- pandora loops sounds very quickly
 
Nature Sounds tends to have ten minute tracks though, and anyway I don't need to quell the rage within me today so the act of listening is unpalatable
 
Bah, grumble grumble, bloomin' waste of time. OP edits the crucial failing bit of their code out of the code in the question, but fails to mention it - replacing it instead with a comment saying *boilerplate code*. Bah.
@tristan like. Interesting - I like the discontinuity...
 
DSM
Morning cabbage. Has the unusual phenomenon of questions being upvoted before there's time for them even to be read been explained anywhere?
 
user559633
2:26 PM
@JRichardSnape Me too (and that's a great way of expressing it).
 
@tristan Nice beat. I'm trying to stop being a filthy casual w.r.t. music appreciation
 
That's the problem with requiring an MCVE - the C is rather harder to establish if you don't know what the problem is
 
To all the Django users in here! . I am able to render forms automatically with {{ form }} for example but then I don't know how to design my stuff. When I do everything with raw html it would last so long, but I had the advantage of proper css styling then. What do you guys do if you want the best of both worlds (forms and good css design)
 
Well, the contest between M and C
 
user559633
Also into this sound's..washed out mastering(?) soundcloud.com/fuselab/…
 
2:28 PM
Yes, it's hard to make a MCVE for "What's a bubblesort?"
 
@RobertGrant Hmmm - as my frustration abates, I will lean into that charitable explanation. I did suspect trolling in this case, the misunderstanding would have to be so great.
 
user559633
@QuestionC Which question did you see that was asking for a bubblesort? I have an idea
 
Pet peeve: when an OP asks a perfectly acceptable conceptual question, and the first comment is a variant on "what have you tried?". Not all programming questions involve code.
 
It was just an example. I do encounter problems where the OP just needs design or educational materials.
 
2:30 PM
Here's a screenshot of my Windows screensaver. There are lots of bubbles, but I can't get them to sort.
@Kevin Agreed, very much so. I get a bit fed up when people act as though the site can only be about debugging 2-3 lines of code.
 
“I’m sitting in my bath and I’m bored. How do I bubble sort?”
10
 
@JonClements: I don't know if this song appeals to your tastes: Toby Keith - Bullets In The Gun . I guess it could be classified as country rock.
 
@PM2Ring I'm more a cry in your beer country music guy: youtube.com/watch?v=GDQ2JiF6EeQ
 
A great recent question I had was "How do I convert decimals to binary." Totally legit programming question, totally impossible to generate a MCVE for because you can't code without an algorithm.
 
@Morgan am I awarding the bounty to the bearded wonder?
 
2:37 PM
Todo: Make fool-proof video tutorials for debugging with every major C IDE.
 
Mathematics.SE would probably be happy to do a binary conversion question
 
Math is just gonna have to share the binary problems.
 
@JonClements Ok. So how about George Jones's A Good Year For The Roses, as performed by Elvis Costello & The Attractions.
 
@PM2Ring I'll give it a go - but that song is always George Jones to me
 
2:39 PM
The duet with Alan Jackson was awesome
 
Elvis does a pretty faithful rendition
 
user559633
@poke Most of the bubble-creating solutions are oleophobic, so fill the bath with bouyant oil and add water and bubble-solution as desired to create pockets of whimsy
 
@PM2Ring actually - that's not too bad :)
the only thing I have to say is it's been a good year for the roses :)
 
It's not often the news makes me laugh...

> Ultimately they agreed, and soon afterward the USFL was defunct—whereupon Trump filed a $1.3 billion federal antitrust lawsuit against the NFL, claiming it had plotted against the USFL and was a monopoly. The jury agreed that the NFL was a monopoly but awarded damages of only $1, which the judge then trebled for a grand total of 3 bucks.
 
@PM2Ring try youtube.com/watch?v=BjO1F6oCab8 - that's also nice
 
2:43 PM
speaking of football anyone see what happened last night?
 
user559633
@Programmer what a ludicrous display
 
The problem with Arsenal is, they always try to walk it in
6
 
user559633
@Kevin too much throttle kevin; he'll know
 
<- gunners fan here. :D
 
What happened in football?
 
user559633
2:44 PM
@QuestionC they hit the ball with their feet.
 
nah he intentionally pushed it if you watch the replay
 
(uh oh, my script doesn't cover this contingency). Excuse me, QuestionC. I believe I left my oven on fire this morning.
 
at least a kick is questionable
 
I saw a BubbleSort question the other day, too. I suppose I understand teachers setting coding it as a task, but I really wish that they'd show their students a better O(n^2) sort first, eg selection sort. IMO, the only valid reasons to learn about BubbleSort is so that you know to avoid it, and so you can recognise it when you see it.
Note that I'm not saying that all O(n^2) sort algorithms are bad: they should be used when n is small. But of course any sane sorting function in a library wikll use a Onlogn) sort for large n and selection (or maybe insertion) sort for small n.
 
Open Facebook -> Go to that guy's page -> Scan through today's Facebook memes...

Oh, the Seahawks?
 
2:47 PM
lol yes
 
I think the idea is to start them off with explaining a very easy algorithm to follow to get used to the basic concepts of sorting...and then work up the standard list of popular sorting algorithms that get more and more complex.
 
Bubble sort is nice in that you can write it with very few lines of code. The most important lesson it teaches is "algorithms are not magic, and ordinary humans like yourself are capable of inventing and implementing them"
 
Just received in my inbox "Announcement: Big Data changes everything". LMFAO.
 
user559633
@Programmer almost no one knows what you're on about, mate
 
2:49 PM
teachers should make students implement bogosort instead of bubblesort because the first one is just while not is_sorted(seq): random.shuffle(seq). So easy!
 
@tristan oh are you a soccer fan? :p
 
I am enjoying Tristan and Kevin's soccerball. Here's hoping it's a game of two halves.
 
user559633
@Programmer i consider myself a student of the world, which means i only really care about sportsball if it's happening within walking distance, if a girl i fancy pretends to be into it, or if i'm seriously drunk
 
@JonClements Oh yeah. I know that one.
 
@Ffisegydd Yes, please!
 
2:51 PM
I'm not a diehard fan but I do enjoy a game or two here or there. The news was discussing it this morning though, wasn't sure if others cared
 
user559633
You could always just tell us exactly what happened -- that's probably better conversation
 
I follow real football...the one that actually uses the foot to control the ball. :) And hockey...because well I live in Canada
 
@PM2Ring another decent one - not a massively well known artist - youtube.com/watch?v=muXJK0mrvgs
 
user559633
@idjaw oh, you mean foosball
 
(well - he's big - but not big big)
 
2:52 PM
I'd care more about football if my team could manage to win every now and then.
 
user559633
I prefer barsball. Where you drink and pretend to care about people kicking the ball around. I think it's called 'football' in the old world.
 
@Kevin But selection sort's pretty easy to implement too. And the logic's easy to understand. If you're sorting a hand of cards, selection sort is a natural way to do it. Only very special people would sort a hand of cards using bubblesort. :)
 
user559633
Oh man he ran and then kicked it! Someone else is kicking it now! Oh no someone fell down because someone ran too close to him! Boo other team!
 
Sports are important because everyone needs something to obsess about but not everyone can afford to play Magic: The Gathering
 
2:55 PM
Can't award it for another 5 hours ;___; would be a shame if someone else were to post an answer that I felt morally obliged to bounty in that time...
 
user559633
@Kevin i worry about my javascript purity
 
Fantasy sports leagues are just DnD without the dungeons or dragons
 
user559633
@idjaw yeah, exactly.
 
Which reminds me... a couple of decades ago I practised using (base 4) radix sort to sort a deck of cards (handy when you want to make sure it's a full deck). After a while I got rather fast. :)
 
@idjaw That's a trend that goes back to ancient rome, where fans of gladiators would wear team colors and riot in the street after games.
It has always ever been thus.
 
2:57 PM
@Kevin yeah...subprocess.Popen.communicate isn't playing nicely
 
The problem I had with communicate is, it expected me to reply to an input before I saw the prompt.
 
user559633
 
Oh, I actually had an oversight, let me fix something
 
@PM2Ring and this (not country) is always a good one: youtube.com/watch?v=sCiW161e_YI
 
@PM2Ring I think Bubblesort is the natural way to sort a deck of cards. You take the biggest card out of the deck, and put it back in every time you see something bigger.
 
2:58 PM
So I couldn't do, like, if message == "Enter favorite color": pipe.send("red"); elif message == "Enter favorite food": pipe.send("pizza")
 
@Ffisegydd Leave it a few days - give those perusing the bounty queue the benefit of laying there eyes on the renaissance beauty of a well-honed response :D
 
@JRichardSnape I'll spend my free hours on how to solve his problem to take it away
 
OTOH - just award it before Programmer bests me ;)
 
@QuestionC That's not bubble sort: bubblesort can only swap a pair of adjacent items.
 
Seriously someone just post "You forgot to do the needful" and I'll award it in a flash.
 
3:01 PM
@tenderlove Combining "fail fast" with "continuous delivery", we've invented Continuous Failure!
It's so agile.
 
I'm currently typing up JIRA issues. Does that make me agile? Why don't I feel any faster?
 
user559633
@MorganThrapp If you make it explicit, it's just pornography for consulting companies
 
user559633
It was always there -- subtle
 
@Ffisegydd Depends...are you using the agile board? Then it's official
 
@PM2Ring The constant swapping of items is just an implementation detail caused by the fact that moving things around in stacks in hard is computers. You could make an algorithm that just memmov's the array down every time you swap and it wouldn't change anything.
 
user559633
3:03 PM
Obviously if you come onto a project and put 1 senior dev, 4 juniors, 10 qa that can't code, and 10 business people, you're going to create failure while consuming money
 
@Ffisegydd agile isn't (meant to be) faster :)
 
To me, Selection sort would be like if you remember the highest known card in the deck because you 'tap' it but you don't remove it until you finish the pass.

In Bubble sort, you actually remove the card from the deck and swap it back in every time you see a higher card until you finish the pass.
The latter makes more sense with cards because shifting an IRL stack is easy.
 
user559633
@RobertGrant Agile isn't designed to be faster. It's designed to put non-time-based estimates in front of management and put more non-coders into the technology process.
 
My preferred sorting method is to group cards into common suits, then sort within each bucket. In the case of Magic cards, where there aren't necessarily the same number of cards per "suit" (i.e. color), I order suits by their approximate frequency, rather than the canonical white/blue/black/red/green order. If I'm lazy, I'll just assume the card at the top of the stack is the most frequently appearing one, because probabilistically speaking, it's the best choice to make without counting
 
user559633
Agile came from a consulting firm. Consulting firms make money the longer they're on a project and the more people they can rationalize as needing to be involved.
 
3:07 PM
My understanding is it's designed to try and make something the person paying for it actually wants, while assuming they don't know what they want
 
user559633
I seriously feel like I have a fucking cassandra complex at every company I join that uses it
 
I didn't think agile itself specified who should be involved in a process; maybe scrum?
 
user559633
if velocity is supposed to be an estimate of work done (at best) and you calculate the "points" of a project based on it's complexity and not on its time sink, you're having pointless meetings to derive numbers you don't care about
 
found this one :P
 
3:10 PM
If I've opened multiple packs, I'll radix-then-insertion sort each one individually, and merge them all together. Merging is more efficient than expected because cards tend to have many duplicates and few unique values.
 
user559633
oh, you want it as an estimate and to have deadlines? what you actually wanted was a list of shit to do with who is working on it
 
I'm not sure that's an agile thing; it might be scrum, although I think it's something else that often gets done alongside scrum
 
user559633
oh, sorry, i forget that programmers aren't smart people and instead are incompetent people that have no idea how businesses work. my bad, back to playing "planning poker" with decks of cards that cost us $20 for each set
 
@Tristan are you comparing this against an estimating method that works better?
 
@JonClements It's good, but too much of a tear-jerker for me.
 
user559633
3:12 PM
@RobertGrant Yes. In my experience, I mean, it's only a decade, but still, "list of shit to do" and "hey people working on it, how long do you think it will take?" ( then taking that and *= 2), gets more done.
 
The management systems that pull underperformers up, also tend to drag overperformers down.
It might be preferable to double the productivity of your ten B- employees, even if it halves the productivity of your A+ employee
 
user559633
The whole "face to face communication is king and creates better code " is an excuse for more meetings. Windows ME was designed by meetings. Debian was designed by remote teams, many of whom have never even seen each other.
 
@Tristan that doesn't seem enormously different
 
Although the arithmetic changes if you believe in "100x" developers
 
Sure, and the Constitution was written by meetings. So meetings can be good or bad.
 
3:14 PM
@JonClements I have a business enquiry: Is it acceptable to post multiple answers to the same question if the second answer is just the first answer basically inverted?
 
Arguments that aren't objectively true for most examples shouldn't exist
 
user559633
@RobertGrant I'm not arguing against meetings. I'm arguing against a setup that demands rituals and face-to-face talking.
 
If a statement and its negation are both provably true, then mathematics will fall apart and possibly destroy the universe. I can't recommend it.
 
I don't think it demands face to face, although it prefers it, and what it calls rituals you still need to do when asking people how long something will take
 
user559633
The US Constitution is was also written before the time of modern communication tools and is a simplistic document that doesn't reflect reality at all.
 
3:16 PM
I'm glad for my constitutional right to bare arms. Long sleeves are just so constricting.
 
Yeah but why say that when we agree that meetings aren't bad often enough to ridicule them; that was the only point I was making with that
 
user559633
You can make shitty, vague manifestos and then say "look at this thing I made! thank fuck we all sat around a table and agreed to state 'children should not be hungry'"
 
@Kevin groan
 
Okay, my example has obviously derailed this completely :)
@Kevin and without it, how would bears pick things up?
 
user559633
I'm saying that if you are pulling in a process in the pursuit of getting more work done, that process shouldn't be dripping in rituals and behaviors that distract people from actually doing work.
 
3:18 PM
Hmmm, is there a way to increment and then return a number?
Like ++.
 
with their arms. It wouldn't be legal, but who wants to arrest a bear?
 
@Tristan agile isn't a process; do you mean scrum or something similar?
 
@MorganThrapp Not for immutable objects, no.
 
user559633
@RobertGrant Agile is a bullshit, weasel manifesto meant to sell another process.
 
I think it mandates about 4 meetings a sprint, which is usually 4 weeks long
 
3:20 PM
@MorganThrapp I can do it in 2 lines =)
 
@QuestionC Heh.
 
++ in an expression is a maintenance nightmare anyway
 
The concept of agile methodologies isn't to distract people from doing work....a proper agile practice will mold the process to work best for the people...the people should drive the process to make them more efficient.....it's meant to be modified to cater to how the team works....if you start implementing rules to slow people down then that would be failure in understanding the purpose for agile methodologies
 
user559633
look at this shit: http://www.agilemanifesto.org/
the background is a bunch of people in a standup meeting -- they don't even pretend it's not a vessel for selling another thing
 
Yeah but who cares if you don't pay anything for it?
 
user559633
3:21 PM
It's all just meaningless truisms.
 
user559633
@RobertGrant You do! You pay with time that is now gone from your life
 
Sure, but address what I said about 4 meetings a month; are you saying that's not the case with scrum?
 
user559633
The most important, non-renewable resource that you have and waste
 
>>> x = { 'a' : 12 }
>>> def foo ():
        return x.update({ 'a' : x['a'] + 1 }) or x['a']

>>> foo()
13
>>> foo()
14
>>> foo()
15
^ Increment and return in one line.
 
I know there's that daily standup meeting; is that what you have a problem with?
 
user559633
3:23 PM
@RobertGrant 4 meetings a month is fine if you need to have it.
 
user559633
I feel like you're fucking with me by pretending to be a scrummaster
 
user559633
WHOA WHOA let's timebox and parking lot that concern you have
 
@QuestionC That does not update the variable
 
No, I'm trying to break through the polemics and find out what you're saying so I can understand better :)
 
For shame =(
 
3:24 PM
@QuestionC Otherwise you could have just written i + 1 :P
 
Okay, but you said you also have a way to estimate how long something will take - would you do that without a meeting?
And would you do that once for a 6 month project at the start, so you save 5 meetings compared to scrum?
 
@RobertGrant I've worked in a place where that was done without meetings. It was excellent, but onerous
 
user559633
@RobertGrant I'm saying that scrum and agile are sales methodologies and are often ungrounded in what will actually get more, high-quality work out of employees. It's ill-fitted in most scenarios and sprints lead to crappy code.
 
Yeah but stop zooming out of the detail and giving another anti-sales pitch :)
 
I really like the ++ operator, but that probably reflects my C++ background. It's our next()
 
user559633
3:26 PM
@RobertGrant Okay -- so let's pretend there's a scrummaster position. Say that's even a project manager. The ratio I've found is roughly 1:6.
 
They taught coders to estimate coding time, testing time and integration time accurately from (literally) one line changes up when you started. Used the same principles all the way through, allocating slack at each step. I hated it - too micro-managey, but it worked
 
I feel like I'm trying to understand all science by Star Trek zoomed-out analogies
 
When I have to remember whether x++ evaluates to the incremented value, or to the un-incremented value, I guess wrong 80% of the time, even when I am aware of this very phenomenon.
 
Bespoke solution. I never saw them deliver late. Ever. Not many places can say that.
 
user559633
It's not unreasonable for that person to say "hey, this project requires A, B, C", then chop that into reasonable chunks, assign it to developers, and then say "how long do you think that will take you?"
 
user559633
3:27 PM
That's no less exact than playing "planning poker" and assigning complexities or trying to shoe-horn the work into a meaningless interval.
 
"just take your gut instinct and negate it" works about as effectively as "if the USB device didn't fit, turn it upside down and try again"
 
What's a reasonable chunk?
 
user559633
If your project manager doesn't understand software development and has never written and accurately estimated the time it would take him to do a task, then congratulations, you made a bad management hire.
 
user559633
@RobertGrant Depends on the project. This demands an example.
 
@tristan I have yet to meet a “scrum master” (a person calling themselves that) who isn’t a total jerk and actually does useful stuff.
 
3:28 PM
What I mean by that is do you define a reasonable chunk by how long it will take, or by some other measure?
 
user559633
@poke I've met some fantastically nice, but not particularly useful people.
 
user559633
@RobertGrant We need a fictional company. Let's say that we're at SnakeCorp and we make SnakeOil(tm)
 
SopyCorp
 
We don't have dedicated scrum masters....we have scrum devs....so they handle responsibility of what a scrum master should do...but since we can't justify that being a full time position, they are ultimately a dev 95% of the time.
 
@Kevin I just searched "psychology of binary choice" on scholar.google. A mere 220,000 hits.
@tristan I think that is a key point in this discussion.
@RobertGrant kLOC FTW ;)
 
user559633
3:32 PM
Actually, this would take a really long time to make a fictional company and make fictional work for it to do.
 
@Kevin also, if it's anything like a USB connector, you'll have to negate your instinct twice
 
Precisely.
 
@Tristan what was your example going to add that would help answer that question?
 
Also - I still do the USB one, even though the convention is to put the logo on the top of the plug and mount the sockets accordingly.
 
user559633
Forget it, we should just SCRUM all the time, bring in Holacracy, and spend all of our money on branded equipment that we'll use in the 1/4 of our work hours we have dedicated to this lightweight process
 
user559633
3:33 PM
@RobertGrant That you can get away with actual lightweight conversations between people if you have a small number of people that actually understand how to build complex systems.
 
user559633
Good question and thanks :)
 
Yeah but then aren't you comparing something that does well in an ideal situation (your experts all know what to do, don't need feedback from customer, whose requirements won't change and barely need to talk to each other to know what they're thinking) to a methodology that's (trying to be) useful in other situations?
 
user559633
@RobertGrant The ideal doesn't exist. What I'm suggesting is not implementing a structure that works best for "your shit is broken, let's crowd it with consultants" as your normal routine.
 
I don't think consultants have to be anything to do with it, though. You might have them, but at least they have to demo every month rather than after two years or whatever
 
Whoa, whoa, whoa. There's nothing wrong with consultants.
 
user559633
3:39 PM
@Ffisegydd I know, I'm one too :)
 
I got taught the secret handshake on my induction. The fire tattoo still stings though.
 
user559633
@RobertGrant My assertion is that scrum/agile/whatever else comes out of thoughtworks is designed for consultants on a project.
 
user559633
 
user559633
pictured: non-sustainable development
 
why are the shoes different??
 
3:41 PM
I didn't think it came out of thoughtworks, although I'm sure they use it
 
user559633
@RobertGrant It did. Or at least its modern form grew out of agile.
 
@RobertGrant @Kevin Then there’s only one solution. Incrementor type C: +x+!
 
DSM
Symmetry for the win.
 
Only works on symmetrical variable names, of course
 
rhubarb
 
3:42 PM
Alternatively x++x, e.g. foo++foo
 
DSM
Since most variable names should be one letter long, that's not a problem in practice.
 
only I, o, O, H, l, x, X, and palindromic combinations thereof are allowed.
 
why not x?
 
Because the key was covered by my thumb while I was scanning for candidates
 
@Tristan I didn't know that, but even so I'm trying to judge it not based on where it's from or whatever, but just on its merits (or lack of)
 
3:44 PM
@Kevin u, U, i, ö, Ö, ü, Ü, w, W, y, Y, v, V, m, M
You’re sloppy.
 
DSM
Those don't work horizontally though.
 
We're just working from different specs :-)
 
user559633
@RobertGrant To be fair, I actually like some of the stuff that comes when SCRUM has been sold to a PM team. I like standups. I like sprints on small tasks.
 
@DSM Neither do small letter characters because they are aligned to the baseline but don’t fill the whole line height.
 
3:46 PM
The interpretation of "symmetrical variable names" caused the great schism of '15, which split support for the inter-incrementor neatly in half. Which, if you think about it, nicely conforms to the spirit of the idea.
 
DSM
@poke: but there is a horizontal line around which we could flip and preserve the shape. Not true for a lowercase m.
 
user559633
@RobertGrant Do you think it's a coincidence that the company logos linked on the page are consulting firms? The longer your company remains non-productive, the more money they stand to make.
 
DSM
(I'm ignoring things like the fact o need not be a circle, etc.)
 
@DSM Not sure why you pick m as an example here; but my point stands. If you have a palindromic combination of upper and lower-case characters of Kevin’s set, then you don’t have a perfect symmetry.
 
@Tristan in the short term maybe, but coincidence does not mean causation...no, wait.
 
3:48 PM
@poke Ok, errata. "only (o, x, and palindromic combinations thereof) and (I, O, H, l, X, and palindromic combinations thereof) allowed". No intermingling of the two categories. Now there will be a line of horizontal symmetry either way.
 
Just because people can exploit something, doesn't mean (all of it) is bad
 
user559633
Anyway, throw this in my face when I'm a manager in a couple years and I make my dev teams get into their $90 agile-onesies and assign arbitrary numbers to tasks that I don't understand
 
@Kevin works for me.
 
user559633
I haven't been saying that all of it is bad, just that it's a bad framework to apply to a functional company and that most of it is a scam
 
Now to write the regex that will recognize legal names...
 
3:49 PM
@Tristan I will :)
 
DSM
@poke: I picked m because the first one I thought of which Kevin didn't mention was M, but then I realized that all of his letters had a property that M didn't, namely symmetry in two directions, and m is the lowercase version of M.
 
I think we need to pass around the peace |
 
@Kevin .*?
 
Or when you specced a 3-year project up front and you're on year 5 and your lawyer is trying to explain that the system fulfills the spirit, if not the letter, of the spec
 
s/names/inter-increment variable names/
People's names can be whatever they want. I'm not the name police.
 
user559633
3:52 PM
@RobertGrant If I specced a 3-year project up front, I'd know it would take 6ish years, so in year 5, I'd still be on track.
 
Nah, you thought it'd take 18 months :)
 
user559633
But whatever, 50 sets of $20 playing cards with kind-of-fibonacci numbers would have saved me~!
 
DSM
I get don't get that reference.
 
I think you're very focused on that one thing :)
 
user559633
@RobertGrant Because it's fun and ridiculous.
 
3:54 PM
As a developer I see a lot of the appeal. When I came up for review it was painfully obvious that my manager wasn't aware of what/how much I was actually accomplishing because there were no metrics-for-dummies.
 
user559633
Also less offensive than the parts that I could be focusing on.
 
Like what?
 
user559633
@RobertGrant Going to go ahead and pass on that offer.
 
Is that American for "I don't want to answer that"? :)
 
user559633
@RobertGrant No, it's Tristan for "I'm working on offending fewer people because even if I'm right, it doesn't benefit anyone"
 
3:57 PM
I'm honestly just trying to find out what you mean dude; not trying to attack some fundamental aspect of your identity :)
I don't know who'd get offended by you saying what you don't like about agile/scrum/other
But okay, obviously your choice
 
lunch rbrb
 
I could think of people that might be offended if one of the objections might be the motivation of advocates. So a wise choice imho
 
user559633
@RobertGrant I'm not taking it that way. I think that I've expressed my concerns with agile/scrum other consulting workflows: they're scams at worst and unsustainable at best. they treat developers like children and belittle your best employees. they encourage hiring technology-amateurs as managers and waste absurd amounts of company money.
 
Do you think that's fundamental to agile, or it's how you've seen it implemented?
 
user559633
@RobertGrant Fundamental.
 
4:02 PM
Ah. Well, there's a succinct summary of points to date :)
 
What would you recommend as a better way to do it?
By it, I mean plan and develop software that the customer will want at the end of a project
 
user559633
@RobertGrant Depends on the project entirely. Consider the moon landing. You either land on the moon or you don't. There's no MVP beyond "do the work and try not to kill people."
 
I've not come across MVP in agile; is that a most valuable player team award?
 
user559633
Minimal viable product. Related to YAGNI
 
Oh sorry, I do remember
But then isn't the MVP "land on the moon"?
 
user559633
4:07 PM
For a trivial web application? Set a hard deadline and ask a senior person on the team to chunk out the work into its major components. Treat your developers like smart people and ask them to break down the major components into smaller ones. Ask them to estimate (in real, non-obfuscated hours) how long it will take them to do each part. Know that they're working hard and people want to please, so take their estimates and at least double them in your head.
 
MVP == P
5
 
But then if you have a hard deadline then how do you stick to that if your estimates exceed it?
 
homework, P == NP ?
 
user559633
Go through and identify where people will run into each other or where commonalities exist. There are your meetings. Have some conversation from time to time to share ideas.
 
Overtime?
 
user559633
4:09 PM
@RobertGrant Then you can't do the work. If you pair down non-essential parts ("hey, maybe we don't need to support oauth") and your estimates still exceed the deadline, you can't do it.
 
user559633
Except that without agile, you spend half as much money getting to that realization
 
DSM
There's a certain member of our admin who has a tough time understanding that the fact something is a business necessity doesn't actually make it feasible. Numerous attempts to explain the distinction have been met with "be part of the solution, not part of the problem" responses.
 
What about scrum makes its estimation process take so much longer than that way? (Speaking as someone who's used that way of doing it to estimate, say, 3-month projects, but only for a very small team)
 
user559633
 
I feel as though I'm trying to talk about principles/fundamentals and you keep switching to conclusions :)
 
user559633
4:15 PM
@RobertGrant I feel like you're expecting the best case from the marketing materials and jumping to the conclusion that there's merits in whole of the rituals
 
I may be able to find at least one company on the planet that planned everything up front, didn't deliver anything, took years longer, successfully charged a fortune and got paid penalty fees because the contract was cancelled by an annoyed customer
 
user559633
@RobertGrant I bet they were so agile
 
Agile planning it all up front? Perhaps our terminology is just different.
 
user559633
I'm not advocating for "plan everything up front", I'm stating that companies can put on their big boy pants and plan things without manifestos and rituals
 
I'm honestly not expecting the best, I don't think I've said that. You do seem to keep jumping to the worst case, which is why I'm trying to ask specific questions to try and get at your experience
On the basis that cynicism requires just as much thought as naivete, and you aren't stupid, therefore there must be something behind your conclusions other than those same conclusions :)
 
user559633
4:18 PM
I'm not jumping to worst case and I've already expressed not only my preferred method of project management, but my actual experience
 
Okay fair enough; thanks
 
I love agile.
 
I like my company's method of project management. Fix the issue that's being yelled about the loudest.
 
user559633
4:21 PM
Here's some examples of people much smarter than I am voicing their concerns: Yegge, Shaw
 
user559633
@MorganThrapp Oh god that's terrible
 
@tristan Yup. It is painful.
 
user559633
"kicked-dog project management"
 
Like any management style, if it's done "right", by someone who's just good at managing a project in general, and not too strict about following "the book", it would be a lot easier to deal with. I have never encountered such a project.
 
user559633
@AaronHall That's rituals for company culture.
 
4:28 PM
@davidism I've done a lot of "management" - there's no "rule book" - not if you want it to work at least
probably doesn't help when you're middle management and tell the senior management where to go stick it - but heck, I always acted (and will continue to do so) on behalf of "my" team
 
user559633
I'm considering going back to school to get an MBA so I can jump up to senior management more quickly
5
 
@JonClements tell that to the "Agile" people: scaledagileframework.com
 
senior management is less fun though
 
user559633
Tech ability makes you an outsider; having an MBA is a shibboleth
 
that diagram is an actual serious thing, and a friend on another project told me their manager actually has it printed out and posted on the wall
 
4:32 PM
my favourite roles have always been "team lead"
 
That whole website is insane, we were having a good laugh over it a while ago.
Then it actually happened to us. :-(
 
never know what quite happened to me... one moment I'm the dogs body of cleaning mag tape labels, boxing them up, or burning CDs when a programmer asked me to... then boom... I'm a head of department and then a director of the company
 
user559633
@JonClements ha ha same but mexican prison at the end
 
Did you take Juan for the team?
 
user559633
4:43 PM
@Ffisegydd fuuuuuuck
 
drops mic
 
@JonClements Was it a power vacuum?
 
> When - - 4 is evaluated the output is 4 instead of general output 3.
What language gives 3 when you do --4?
C? I didn't think you could (in|de)crement literals.
 
^ yeah
error: lvalue required as decrement operand
 
4:48 PM
KevinScript can do it. Not by design though.
 
> Give @Krishan a break, it's a reasonable question.
 
@alfasin according to C/C++ rules, building language of programming — Krishan Aggarwal 3 mins ago
Lol if this guy thinks that C is the father of all programming languages
 
"Give him a break" is weird because while it's reasonable to expect someone with a C background to think "why can't I decrement this", it's also reasonable to expect them to do even a cursory search through the docs after thinking it.
 
Even if he's trying to say "most languages are implemented in C or C++", that doesn't mean that those languages need to follow any of C/C++'s rules
 
user559633
@Kevin I mean lol right? It's obviously PHP 4
 
4:50 PM
KevinScript is written in Python, but it doesn't have defs.
Ideone is really letting me down on the one day I need to use it to own somebody
 
Hey, I'm new to chat, but does anyone know where I should turn with a quick questions about N-Body problems and parallelization?
Or does someone have a chat crash course?
haha
 
I really want to hear your problem.
I'm totally unqualified to answer it, but this sounds like a fun 30 minute adventure of wikipedia/google learning.
 
It belongs here if you're using Python to solve the problem.
 
I've always been a fan of X-Body problems. That's when your ex is really hot and it makes you sad.
 
If not, mmmmaybe our resident physics people will be interested anyway.
 
4:59 PM
using C but a quick chat search led me here with some older numerics discussions
 
If you're not using Python to solve the problem then you have two problems.
 
N-Body got me nothing
 

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