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2:00 PM
5 users free, that's enough for me actually
I only started with github because I liked the client
 
user559633
Bitbucket's model is to allow private repos so you start growing your company there, then they charge you on team size and try to upsell you on the rest of their crappy toolset
 
@Ffisegydd Meh, I just use sourcetree, and never deal with their website UI.
 
user559633
e.g. HipChat/JIRA/Confluence, etc
 
I like Jira though, that's pretty good
 
user559633
JIRA is tolerable sometimes, yeah.
 
2:01 PM
@tristan Not natively, no. In my home dimension, there weren't separate names for time zones while they observed Daylight Savings time. It was just EST year-round. I estimate that I slid into this weird dual-name dimension about two or three years ago.
 
The agile management stuff on Jira isn't well thought through, but overall I'm happy with it - we use it at work now
 
user559633
@RobertGrant And it allows people to customize it into a camel.
 
Integrates to slack, which is cool
 
@tristan OK - I've worked out what you're doing and data structure stuff. You've basically got a fully connected graph (i.e. theoretically you could fly from any city to any other) and you want a round trip, right?
 
user559633
@JRichardSnape Thank you so much for looking at that.
 
2:02 PM
No probs. You have a few issues - should I start a room?
 
user559633
It's a fully connected simple graph and I want to make a "world tour," returning to start_end_vertex
 
user559633
Please
 
If you don't mind it taking a while, just sort the nodes in some way and add the first one onto the end. You're welcome!
 
Quick Q. What's the complexity of dict.keys() in 2.7?
 
It's...pretty complex.
 
2:07 PM
But its performance is O(N)
 
Thanks, but dang, I was beaten to the punch for pointing it out.
I'd post my comment as an answer if I had some benchmarks to back it up, but OP didn't provide sample input, and thus I can't be bothered.
 
Has anyone used the Bitbucket GUI client? It doesn't look as spangly as the github one, but I admit that may not be the best way to compare them
 
@RobertGrant I use it all the time.
It's not as pretty as the Github client, but it's much more powerful.
 
Wow it actually has way more features
And supports github already! downloads
 
Btw, at some point, didn't the sopython dev team mention wanting to read from the chatroom via a websocket? I think I might have solved that problem, at least in javascript
 
2:14 PM
Yeah I think @Ffisegydd
 
@Kevin Yes. In Sanskrit, the word for "and" (ca) typically goes after the final member of the list. OTOH, like Latin, Sanskrit is a highly inflected language, so word order doesn't have much effect on meaning. But I have no idea if modern Indian languages (which are also highly inflected) follow the same convention with lists. :)
 
@corvid we already have in JS and Python :p
 
Socket.io?
 
@PM2Ring Informative, thanks :-)
 
Whatever poke used with node
and autobahn/twisted for Python
(although neither work presently as I think something changed in the chat a while back concerning getting the socket etc...)
 
2:15 PM
@corvid I have expressed interest in the past, but only because I couldn't get poke's implementation working and I didn't try anyone else's.
 
I might switch to bb and save myself a few quid a month
 
Hey, Jon. The current xkcd has a puppy theme. Sort of... xkcd.com/1558
 
SourceTree handles corporate proxy server without me having to edit a config file. ST: 1. Github client: 0.
Github client just says "there's something wrong with this repo" when I forget to set the proxy stuff
Okay I'm basically sold on SourceTree; it also seems way faster than the github client
 
Atlassian makes good stuff
 
Tip of the day: 'thing'.to_upper() == 'Thing' will never be True. I don't know why I ever thought it would, but it won't.
 
2:33 PM
tip part 2: str.capitalize exists. This message brought to you by the society of people that were unaware of str.capitalize for an embarrassingly long amount of time.
 
'thing'.title() == 'Thing'?
 
Trying to decide if this should be hammered as a dupe of the perennial "differences between Python 2 and 3" question.
as too broad, I guess.
 
What I also like is it can connect to subversion, so I can do work stuff from our hideously old source control system on it as well
 
@RobertGrant Yeah, I really like sourcetree. I think it's by far the best.
 
cabbage
 
2:46 PM
Hey up
 
I've been looking for a good SO answer (preferably in the python tag) that explains the misunderstanding in this question where the OP is trying to extract JSON by parsing the string-ified data.
Sadly, Google brings up plenty of pages like this which are less than helpful. And quite often on pages that do show the sane way of extracting JSON data there'll also be an answer that uses string parsing, eg remove extra square bracket from json
 
Yeah, I just ran across a question yesterday that wanted to "parse" json like that. It wasn't the main question though, so I just mentioned that they should use json.loads.
 
DSM
json.loads('"morning cabbage!"')
I wish I'd been here to represent for Mountain Standard, still the best time zone, and unquestionably the one with the coolest name.
 
GMT - the only timezone where just adding an s makes it into an awesome slogan: Greenwich Means Time
 
2:57 PM

Python Noir

18 hours ago, 13 minutes total – 23 messages, 6 users, 3 stars

Bookmarked 18 hours ago by davidism

 
@davidism The weird thing in the Q I linked is that the OP's code does start out using dict access on the JSON data, but then for some bizarre reason he writes the stuff he wants to a file & then reads it back in again as a string. Maybe he's a cargo-culter... but since he improved his question after it was closed I felt I'd reward him by posting a (hopefully) helpful answer. :)
 
@Ffisegydd there's a fun episode of Castle like this
 
Yeah seen it
 
I really enjoyed the first few Harry Dresden books, but eventually it got too samey which is a shame.
There's also a pulp detective series set in Aberystwyth which is hilarious.
 
3:04 PM
I liked the noir fantasies in Calvin and Hobbes.
You don't see a whole lot of chiaroscuro in newspapers these days.
 
@RobertGrant That's one of my favourite Castle episodes. I bet they had great fun making it.
 
TIL the word chiaroscuro
 
I'm pretty sure I picked the term up from a cartoon many years ago.
I remember it had a chameleon as an antagonist, and he would hide from the protagonists by blending in with the paintings in the room.
In the end he gets diverted into the modern art exhibit and freaks out while trying to integrate into the abstract works.
 
Deep Space 9 was heavily into chiaroscuro.
 
^ where I first heard the term "chiaroscuro"
 
3:12 PM
I want to say it was Secret Squirrel but I'm really not sure.
 
Given that everyone here is familiar with the term "burninate", they should all have watched that video.
 
Castle's daughter Alexis got a chance to show her acting skills in The Blue Butterfly
 
I said consummate Vs! Consummate!
 
3:24 PM
Ugh, working with machine code is a huge pain :|
 
s/with machine code//
 
user559633
@corvid I thought you were working on frontend stuff. What gave you the chance to play with opcodes?
 
@tristan Do the whole stack, but this is kind of a self-contained solution concerned with everything from a website to basic robotics. Kinda weird
 
DSM
An app to control household robots?
 
Need an army of robots to aid in your quest for world domination? There will soon be an app for that
 
3:33 PM
Will one robot be enough for domination, or will I need to buy in bulk?
3
 
Just buy one with self-replication features
 
You can sign up for our World Conqueror on a Budgetâ„¢ Plan
 
@JonClements learned today that Greg Wilson (of Software Carpentry fame) is visiting Canterbury until the end of December. Would you be interested in getting together?
 
Your phrasing made me chuckle - but yes... it'd be great to meet up if you want
 
3:41 PM
Some days I wonder if it's really worth it to tell people on the Internet they're wrong, just for its own sake.
 
It's always worth it. Don't give in!
 
DSM
No, it's not, and you should.
 
I'm going to go up to the old lake and skip stones while I think about my future.
 
user559633
@Kevin Sometimes I find it useful practice for defending an objective truth against logical fallacies and reasoning-based-on-emotion
 
3:44 PM
welcome @BlenderWarrior
 
@Ffisegydd Darn it - what if you're wrong about that... the conundrum that could follow!
 
We'll have no logical fallacies in my chatroom.
 
Ooo... getting possessive now are we? :p
 
DSM
"my chatroom"? Look at you, Mr. Argument-from-Authority. ;-)
 
The best argument.
 
user559633
3:47 PM
 
user559633
mod abuse
 
The best abuse.
 
Been doing mod'ing less than 2 months and you won't believe how many times we've seen that phrase - gets old - very quickly :)
 
DSM
Oh, you mean "mod abuse", not a great Simpsons quote.
 
@PM2Ring mmm. I'm not a fan.
 
@RobertGrant Ok. I rarely watch TV these days, but somehow I've managed to see a few series of Castle. :)
@Ffisegydd Gone
 
I think he was referring to Molly Quinn in particular as opposed to Castle.
Either way he's wrong on a fundamental level.
 
:) yes, I don't think she's a great actress
 
DSM
I like her as the character. Haven't seen her in anything else, so I don't know if it was just good casting or she's a good actress. The other day I saw a show whose lead actor I recognized but couldn't place, and when I finally did I realized he was a good actor all along and I'd only thought he was simply a really good character actor because I hadn't recognized him at all.
 
While I would like a daughter with her sensibilities, she's a bit false. Might just be the writing.
 
3:56 PM
I think she plays a teenage girl very well, it's not as if she gets very often to "stretch her legs"
 
@DSM it took me an embarrassing time to spot Viggo Mortinson (the lead) in Eastern Promises. Was awesome.
 
I need a new show to watch (preferably Netflix based).
 
DSM
What kind of shows do you like?
 
Arrested Development
 
I will give pretty much anything a try. I'm not really a fan of comedies though, at least not the sitcom style comedies (think TBBT).
I liked HIMYM and Friends but they were unique in the sense they were both the exact same show.
 
4:00 PM
I finished Sense8 on Netflix, it was pretty good, if a little over the top on "listen to this social message the writer wants to say" at times.
 
user559633
@Ffisegydd Have you seen Parks And Recreation, Archer, or Bob's Burgers?
 
I love P+R and Archer.
 
I missed Ascension when it came out on SyFy, so I'll be watching that soon.
 
Not seen Bob's Burgers.
 
DSM
I love Bob's Burgers so much storywise that I wished I liked the animation more.
 
4:02 PM
In fact I just finished re-watching Archer. It's so good.
 
Residue looks interesting, and it's got the actor who plays Ramsay Bolton in it.
 
@Ffisegydd did you ever watch Life?
 
As in Attenborough?
 
DSM
"‘Residue': Netflix’s New Dystopian Show Is ‘Black Mirror’ With ‘Game of Thrones’ Cast": yeah, doesn't sound like my thing.
 
I've been watching Extant on Amazon Prime, that's pretty good (S1 at least, S2 has been a slow-starter).
 
4:03 PM
I loved Black Mirror
 
user559633
@davidism Ramsay Bolton, you mean the shy chap from Misfits?
 
Oh. No.
 
user559633
Black Mirror was good except for the Pilot and the political teddy bear thing
 
I try to avoid reviews, I usually stick with the three episode rule.
 
4:04 PM
2 seasons though Bob, that'll barely last me a weekend :P
 
Black Mirror is on my watchlist as well.
 
DSM
I thought Residue only had three episodes.
 
I haven't looked that deeply yet, stop poking holes in my plan. :-)
 
@Ffisegydd yeah but it's cool :) and fun
 
I just finished a movie called "The Den". You guys would love it. It took place entirely on either a Mac or an iPhone.
 
4:07 PM
Knights of Sidonia, if you're willing to watch anime, is really good, Kevin and I are enjoying it. It also has an English dub.
 
user559633
@Ffisegydd Trailer Park Boys? An Idiot Abroad? The entire catalog of Arnold Schwarzenegger?
 
@Ffisegydd if you want a long series, try an interesting one I heard of called Star Trek. Apparently they made quite a few episodes?
 
I've heard about that. Dumbledore was in it, right?
 
Nah... you've been listening to Gandalf too much
 
No, that was something else. It's basically the same as Harry Potter, except the bad guy in Star Trek is called The People Who Did Enterprise
 
4:11 PM
But no I'm not watching bloody Star Trek.
Or X-Files.
 
What about Community? It's a sitcom, ish, but pretty smart
 
Not seen it but considered it. Seen a lot of meme-like stills on 9gag from it.
I want more American Horror Story :(
Hopefully once Hotel is released in the Autumn, they'll put Freak Show on Netflix.
 
Oh yeah I never saw that. Is it good?
 
I think it's great.
Very clever.
 
Interesting. It has cool DVD covers, I know that.
Oh hey, what about Supernatural? That's like 9 seasons
 
4:13 PM
Seen it, in fact just finished re-watching up-to-and-including the Apocalypse arc.
I'd definitely recommend the first 6 or so seasons of Supernatural and all of AHS.
AHS is great because each season is self-contained and based around a particular theme
Plus they keep the same actors (more or less). So one season you could have someone playing an innocent young woman and the next she's the serial killer.
 
Hm, cool
Oh - Fargo was cool
(The TV series)
 
I'm going to highly recommend The West Wing.
 
I now have an answer with footnotes and an appendix. :D
 
@MorganThrapp oh, yeah good call. Especially seasons 1 and 2
ESPECIALLY the last episode of season 2.
MRS LANDINGHAM
 
@RobertGrant OH yeah, such a good episode. I'm halfway through season 4 right now. I'm working on finishing Bojack Horseman first.
 
4:20 PM
Plays Brother in Arms
 
I dont ever want to meet a tarantula hawk
 
My personal most scary insect I've ever had crawl on me.
 
DSM
Because I'm pretty much on the opposite side of every issue from the protagonists in the West Wing it was hard to get into. I'm not opposed to watching shows where the protagonists are the bad guys, necessarily, but there's got to be something else. That the oh-so-clever writers don't know how the America/Canada border goes just added to the fun.
 
It's a cricket, but it looks like a giant spider.
 
4:29 PM
bizarre looking bugger
how big?
 
Yup. Found one crawling on my leg when I went down to the basement in the GF's parent's house.
About the size of a fist.
Maybe a little bigger.
 
wow, I bet you freaked out and hurt yourself.
 
user559633
good god. the earth needs a winter to kill all these things
 
Probably there to stop boys going into the basement with daughter
3
 
DSM
Winter is coming, or so they say.
 
4:32 PM
I'm knee deep in chimichangas!
 
Little bit, yeah. I'm just glad it was me who went to change the laundry, and not the GF, because that house might not still be standing if it had crawled on her.
 
user559633
@RobertGrant Nightmares as a Service (NAAS)
6
 
@tristan Can I run it off a NAS?
A NAS NAAS?
 
user559633
@MorganThrapp Yeah, but they're faster in the cloud
 
@corvid Share the wealth.
 
4:42 PM
OH: "StackOverflow devs have the hardest job on the internet… when the site goes down, they have to fix it *without StackOverflow*" #PyData
 
Yeah that actually does sound bad
 
user559633
Jokes aside, when public SO goes down, they still have their private SO pool
 
What if Stack Exchange's dedicated electrical grid goes down? Note, this will also disable the electric fences around their velociraptor paddock.
5
 
Okay, I've skipped enough of your one-liners, @Kevin. Have a star.
 
Nom nom nom.
 
4:48 PM
Hey, two stars. That's two extra lives.
 
Yet another OP who expects us to do psychic debugging. I showed him how to generate the repr() of his data & asked him to post it into the question...
@PM2Ring yes, you are right, When I checked my data using your command, I can see Python add Zero into the numbers with 5 digits and the number 60705 becomes 060705, Do you have any idea how to solve it? — homayoun 17 mins ago
 
user559633
FWIW: this goes in with my idea that adding context to an image search is how you get better content. e.g. add "in the sky" to the search for "sun" and you get the actual image, not peoples' impressions
 
I don't know, I still see a lot of lies in those results.
 
4:59 PM
rhubarb
 
rbrb
 
user559633
@davidism More realistic to a statistically relevant degree
 
Rbrb.
 
@PM2Ring sounds like you are putting too much effort into that tbh
 
@corvid Probably. If he hasn't fixed it next time I logon I'll vtc.
:really gone:
 
5:12 PM
I just noticed: Jack's prison number in Mass Effect has the number 24601
 
user559633
@corvid yeah, a les miserables reference thrown into a jesus christ metaphor
 
Where was that metaphor you speak of?
 
user559633
24601 == reference to les miserables. Jack Shepherd (protagonist name in mass effect) is a blatant call to the messianic archetype as he saves space humanity
 
@tristan Thank god it's Friday, so I won't feel too bad about being lost in TVTropes for the rest of the day.
 
user559633
5:19 PM
@MorganThrapp yeah sorry, should have given that a warning
 
user559633
WARNING: tvtropes link
 
Right I'm gonna risk a gmae of MTG
@Ffisegydd fancy partnering up ?
 
No thanks mate. Don't have it installed.
Plus I could never really get into it.
 
fair 'nough, be back when I'm suitable thrashed then :)
 
5:29 PM
If I wasn't at work, I would be totally down for a game.
 
Is there a way to test if object types are totally ordered?
>>> a, b, c = set('a'), set('ab'), set('abc'); d = set('bc')
>>> sorted((a,b,c,d))
[{'a'}, {'b', 'a'}, {'b', 'c'}, {'b', 'c', 'a'}]
>>> sorted((a,d, b,c))
[{'a'}, {'b', 'c'}, {'b', 'a'}, {'b', 'c', 'a'}]
 
Not that I am aware of.
 
I think this demonstrates that sets aren't totally ordered (and perhaps Python's stable sorting), but is there a way to prove this without contrary examples?
 
sets are sorted by length so the 2 that are length 2 are equal in the eyes of the sort
what do you mean prove it without a contrary example?
 
that doesn't sound right
 
5:36 PM
unordered_types = {type(dict()),type(set())}; if type(my_var) in unordered_types
or some crap like that
 
>>> x, y = set('abc'), set('cd')
>>> sorted((x, y))
[{'b', 'c', 'a'}, {'c', 'd'}]
 
DSM
@AaronHall: sounds plausible to me. It matches your example, and explains why [{1}, {"1"}] is sortable in Python 3-- it never tries to compare the elements.
 
hmmm ok im wrong
I could have sworn that was the mechinism that did the sort compare for sets
 
DSM
Oh, wait, I guess looking at different lists already sorted by order isn't great evidence. :-)
 
__lt__ for sets is like calling issubset
>>> a.__lt__(b)
True
>>> a.issubset(b)
True
 
5:39 PM
im pretty sure that isnt how it sorts though
maybe i guess ...
but i dont think so
 
DSM
I doubt there's a special comparison you use while sorting.
 
nope
fails for dict ...
 
DSM
If we instrument sorted, we can see it matches the < outcome, at least here:
>>> sorted([{1}, set(), {2,3,4},{5,6}])
[set([]), set([1]), set([2, 3, 4]), set([5, 6])]
>>> sorted([{1}, set(), {2,3,4},{5,6}], cmp=f_cmp)
set([]) set([1]) True
set([2, 3, 4]) set([]) False
set([2, 3, 4]) set([1]) False
set([5, 6]) set([1]) False
set([5, 6]) set([2, 3, 4]) False
[set([]), set([1]), set([2, 3, 4]), set([5, 6])]
The only order which changes is when it spots x < y.
 
That's a big pull request...
 
user559633
@corvid JS and CSS?
 
5:47 PM
Just js, nothing else
 
I'm creating an abstract base class called Sortable for my talk, and I don't want to embarrass myself by implying incorrect things. That's why this is of concern to me.
 
DSM
That explains the interest in ordering, I guess!
 
It may be trivial, but Raymond Hettinger demonstrated multiple inheritance with a family tree, so... I think it's ok. Does it sound ok?
 
DSM
Sure, but for the limit of 2 parents.
 
Well, I mean what I'm doing, is that ok? Here's what I'm actually doing: using the total_ordering decorator on a class with metaclass ABCMeta and an abstractproperty called something like _sort_attribute, with __eq__, __ne__, and __lt__ implemented...
 
DSM
5:55 PM
You lost me at metaclass. :-) I'll have to defer to someone who actually knows something.
 
Have you tried turning it off and on again?
 
I refuse to star that on the grounds that it may encourage you.
 
Understood.
 
user559633
Have you tried forcing an unexpected reboot?
 
Ok, I'm going to actually try to understand the question now.
 
6:00 PM
for word in post:
    self.understand(word)
It's not working. :(
 
I'd ask on the main site, but "is it ok?" is probably not well suited for SO, and I want to be a productive member of SOciety.
It would be OT for code review though...
If I posted it on Code Review, would it be permitted to post a link here?
 
DSM
I do sometimes think we're too fast to close those. People ask things like "will this work?" and then they get replies like "did you try it?" Well, simply trying it can miss a lot of errors: for i in range(500): assert (i == i) == (i is i) will probably pass, and worse, give you the wrong idea.
 
>>> for i, j in zip(range(200, 300), xrange(200, 300)):
...     assert i is j, (i, j)
AssertionError: (257, 257)
 
DSM
Why go to so much trouble? If all you wanted to do was show it doesn't work, you only need to check x is (x+0) for big x.. the point is there are things that a beginner might think to use as a test but which don't work for reasons beginners don't know yet because they're beginners. (i is i will always pass, and for integers i == i is always true, so the test proves nothing.)
 
6:23 PM
Yeah.
 
I feel like I got 10% farther into this article on metaclasses than the last time I googled it. Progress!
 
good
 
Another five or six people asking metaclass questions over the course of a year or so should get me to full comprehension
 
Async tests... ugh
 
At which point I will revisit your orderability of sets question.
 
6:32 PM
what exception would you raise if you have a threaded writer of some kind and someone tries to write after close is called?
 
Me? Exception, because laziness.
 
bad Kevin. Naughty Kevin.
 
DSM
Probably a ValueError.
 
'tis a naught!
 
I guess I feel like having a rigid hierarchy of exception types is YAGNI territory.
 
6:33 PM
better
Well, if you only catch exceptions that you are prepared to handle, then how are you going to know you can handle them unless they are specific exceptions?
 
DSM
ValueError: I/O operation on closed file, and why not be consistent?
 
won 5/6 on a two headed giant
\0/
 
@JonClements Nice! I haven't play Two Headed Giant in forever.
 
My favorite variant is still Emperor. Ever played it?
 
6:44 PM
Magic: The Gathering chat. In the last week I have been toying with an archetype called "lantern control" which seeks to lock the opponent out of the game by causing him to draw only useless cards. It's lots of fun for me to play, but I question the morality of unleashing it on a non-AI opponent.
 
@Kevin Do you have a link to a deck list? That sounds really fun.
 
here you go, decklist plus a couple demo games.
 
Thanks.
 
This is the second "prison" style deck I have experimented with in as many weeks. I suspect I'm expressing some kind of unconscious desire for a power trip.
 
That is quite the deck.
 
6:49 PM
It's not enough to win... I have to control every aspect of the opponent's experience.
 
I think I want to go with RuntimeError...
It's a decently specific catchall
 
Come to think of it, I basically never try to catch an error that I raised myself.
My exceptions aren't for control flow, they're for producing nice stack traces when an unrecoverable problem occurs.
This explains my cavalier attitude towards exception sub-classes: for me, all they do is change how the error message looks.
 
I don't know if other people really appreciate my more specific errors or not. But if they want to take advantage of it, they can, and if I don't make them specific, they can't, and there's not much cost to doing it.
 
Not a problem for me because other people don't use my code :-) ... :-(
 
7:11 PM
Grrrr, OP turned out to be a help vampire, but I want that sweet acceptance rep. :/
 
How about I sing you a beautiful song instead? I'm doing it right now. Not gonna type it out though, just trust me.
 
That is beautiful.
 
IKR
 
At least this isn't my OP.
Aaaand it's gone.
 
7:41 PM
Okay - to add to the baby names Hurricane and Bulletstorm, we now add Æthelwulf
 
There's a deleted answer on a thread I revisit from time to time that says, "Because Python will never miss a chance of teaching you." Every time I see that I crack up.
 
Of course Python has your best interests at heart. Do you think the Three Laws of Robotics were patched in for nothing?
 
7:58 PM
GvR is the Zeroth Law
 
GvR doesn't obey the laws of robotics, the laws of robotics obey GvR.
 

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