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Xeo
9:14 PM
harro.
 
xeo
please entertain me
I'm bored to the depths of Hell and even Satan ran out of ideas
 
Ell
@Rerito I hope its ethical foie gras
 
I hope you're ethical foie gras
besides I thought you were into the "People should do whatever they want" thing?
 
Xeo
@Puppy k, here's a fun story: little brother (16 yo) went out on the 22nd to... whereever and hasn't been back since. he's also not reacting to any mails (though he reads them)
now my mother basically told him to fuck off and not come back
 
hmm
that's not a fun story
 
9:19 PM
@Ell As a matter of fact, I dont know, I just know it's foie gras, that's enough to me
 
Xeo
@Puppy Iunno, I'm enjoying it tremendously.
 
why?
 
Xeo
because he's a little shit
 
hm
in what sense, exactly?
 
Xeo
9:24 PM
every sense
 
as another fun story, today I nearly killed myself
 
Xeo
how so?
 
today I ate stuff
 
the day before yesterday I was up nearly an additional hour of sickness
 
driving my car on my way home (to Italy). And since that scared the hell out of me I went back and I'm going to spend Christmas here.
and I fucking terrible
 
Xeo
9:25 PM
@AndyProwl drank too much slipo...something?
 
vertigo
 
perhaps I need to consider upping my dose of am-i-trippy-line
 
@AndyProwl wat
 
@AndyProwl Where's "here"?
 
Xeo
@AndyProwl why?
 
9:26 PM
@Puppy Brno, Czech Republic
where I live
 
if you live there then what makes Italy "home"?
 
because I'm Italian and my parents live there
 
ah fair enough.
I experienced myself a very similar situation this Christmas.
well, not with the almost killing myself part
 
@Xeo Because my head is spinning like shite
 
Xeo
@AndyProwl ah, so you weren't scared of your family or something
 
9:28 PM
@Xeo lol no, I got scared because I lost control of my car at 130 km/h and somehow managed to get back to the road
 
Xeo
kinda sounded like that
@AndyProwl oh wow
 
lucky to survive loss of car control at 130km/h
 
especially lucky that there was noone around
no trucks, no other cars
 
gonna drive slower in the future?
 
I swerved left and right 4 or 5 times
gonna drive when I feel fit
I should have been wiser and stay in bed
but I really wanted to see my family
 
Xeo
9:34 PM
lucky.
 
indeed
 
Ell
Wow
 
anyway, I think I will write a proposal about generalizing covariant return types, @Puppy do you have any suggestions or hints other than what we already discussed? (i.e. all the implicit conversions should be allowed on return types)
 
Ell
A close shave
 
This reminds me I should shave
I look even worse than I feel
 
9:42 PM
@AndyProwl You should study the implementations of existing covariant return types in the ABIs and how they are handled, and show that this strategy generalizes.
and ideally also implement the feature as a Clang extension
 
Eh, compiler implementation is unknown territory for me
Hoped it would suffice to define the desired behavior
 
@AndyProwl I'm relieved to hear you're all right.
 
@AndyProwl start by a wrap up of at least 3 languages that have them and what people hate about them.
 
@JerryCoffin thank you
 
Also, it would be beneficial to research why languages like C# don't have them.
 
9:47 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum Why would I want to write the reasons people hate something I'm proposing?
 
@AndyProwl It might--but the committee (strongly) prefers to standardize only existing practice, so if you can't do it in C++, one of two things nearly has to happen: either you find it implemented in some other language(s) that is/are similar enough to C++ for the result to mean something, or else somebody else will have to get excited enough about your idea that they implement it instead.
 
@AndyProwl yes, of course. C++ already has "more" return type covariance than most, people will take your proposal more seriously if you raise all the arguments both for and against it. Moreover - seeing what people complain about gets you a good idea of what to watch out for.
 
@AndyProwl You'll get a lot further with the Committee if you can show that you have a handle on the implementation of it. Nobody wants another export.
 
@Puppy True.
 
The former is a relatively difficult argument to make, and the latter is unlikely enough that planning on its happening is essentially futile.
 
9:49 PM
@JerryCoffin In this case, there aren't really any other languages with quite the same problem, as far as I'm aware. The only thing I'd consider remotely equivalent is stuff like IEnumerable<Derived> -> IEnumerable<Base>, which definitely does exist in C#.
 
@JerryCoffin Indeed I was hoping the second thing would happen. This is the same issue I have with the other proposal I'm working on (language support for type erasure): I know nearly nothing about compilers and never hacked on Clang. I'm reading the dragon book, but slowly.
 
@Puppy C# doesn't have return type covariance at all, even where C++ does have it
 
@AndyProwl In this case, a simple reading of the Itanium ABI will show that for the Itanium folks, this can be implemented simply as an extension with backwards compatibility. In essence, their ABI already supports this feature. For Microsoft, you'll have to do your own legwork.
 
Some people even justified features like existing interfaces with the lack of return type covariance.
 
@Puppy Right--but I was speaking in more general terms--i.e., what needs to happen for almost any significant change to the core language to stand much chance of being approved or even seriously considered.
 
9:51 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum I agree that knowing why people hate them makes sense, so I can watch out for potential pitfalls, but I would not write those things in the proposal
 
user1804599
how do physicalists explain consciousness help
 
@AndyProwl I'm not familiar with the C++ proposal process in order to say with certainty - but in other languages proposals are definitely taken more seriously when you show both sides.
 
one of the most obvious downsides is that there are many language-defined implicit conversions that are stupid.
you might want to go with implicit conversion for UDT or non-narrowing implicit conversion for primitive.
 
@rightføld Is "consciousness help" something that somebody feels obliged to explain?
 
@Puppy there was some related discussion in the Asylum
 
9:54 PM
@rightføld sas-space.sas.ac.uk/874/1/D_Papineau_Fallacy..pdf makes a pretty good case, it's what we read in class so it's kind of mainstream.
 
I know; I started it.
 
I mean, yesterday
Haven't found anything back in the history
I started a thread yesterday and people gave some feedback
 
ah
I started one in the Asylum fairly way back.
 
do you remember when more or less?
so I can look it up
 
FTR, I've never read Dragon, but as far as I know, it's mostly the usual worthless lexing/parsing fixations.
 
user1804599
9:56 PM
> In this chapter I want to argue that there is in fact no good motivation for the dualist view of consciousness, and that we should therefore uphold the simple physicalist position that all mental states, including conscious states, are identical with or realized by physical states.
 
no but it would definitely be pre-Bristol.
 
user1804599
Just what I'm looking for, thanks!
 
anyway I thought I'd allow T foo() to override U foo() if it is possible to copy-initialize some invented variable of type U from an rvalue of type `T
 
no bad bad
 
9:56 PM
direct-list-initialization?
 
still bad bad.
consider if U and T are reference types.
 
I see
 
you should state something more simple, like, if U can be implicitly constructed from an expression of type T, and not by a narrowing conversion
 
so, "... if U{foo()} is valid", where foo() is the function returning T?
no
U u{foo()}
the above would rule out narrowing conversions
 
that would permit explicit conversions, no?
you're still doing this wrong.
you should not try to endlessly define your new rule as some existing rule, but just define it as you mean it and then worry about whether it can be expressed as an existing rule later.
 
Xeo
10:01 PM
@Puppy what's wrong with that?
 
@Xeo We don't want to permit them in this case is what's wrong with that.
 
Why is that bad?
 
well, you don't want, say, unique_ptr<Base> and Derived*.
that would be begging for problems.
 
oh, that
 
Xeo
@Puppy ah, so U u = foo();
 
10:05 PM
@Xeo that would accept narrowing conversions
 
4 mins ago, by Puppy
you should not try to endlessly define your new rule as some existing rule, but just define it as you mean it and then worry about whether it can be expressed as an existing rule later.
 
U u = {foo()} perhaps?
 
leave the language lawyering and deduplication of aforementioned lawyering to LWG.
as long as everybody reading the proposal understands what you mean, then go with that.
 
I thought providing formal semantics in terms of initialization rules that already exist and are already understood would help
But I see your point
 
@AlexM. Should've asked for an SSD for christmas.
 
10:11 PM
@AndyProwl The committee already has people who are good at handling the formalities of defining rules, and just about any set of rules you try to make will probably be revised anyway (assuming the basic idea gains enough acceptance for anybody to bother).
 
@Puppy oh, so how did you get the compiler knowledge that allowed you to work on Wide? Did you just start writing a compiler without knowing the theory?
 
yep.
also the amount of theory that tackles actually difficult parts of the process is not readily available (at best).
 
I have no idea how that approach could possibly work for me. I would not even know where to start.
 
lexing and parsing are both trivial and codegen is mostly done by LLVM, so
 
user1804599
I want a prosthetic brain.
 
10:13 PM
@AndyProwl Well, you do know a guy who has an existing compiler for a brand-new language that he wrote by hand from scratch himself, whose source code is conveniently online for you to see.
 
@rightføld Why, were you not born with one?
 
@Puppy "for me"
 
user1804599
@Nooble It sometimes malfunctions.
 
If I were to start from scratch implementing a compiler, I couldn't possibly do it by "just doing it"
 
@AndyProwl Well, you're talking about starting from scratch, but there's no reason for you to start from scratch, since you can directly derive from my work.
 
user1804599
10:14 PM
Also, I should have myself cloned a few thousand times.
 
user1804599
Would be fun to have thousands of rightfolds in here.
 
@Puppy Sure, but that's not what I was trying to say.
 
@rightføld Make new account, earn 20 rep, rinse and repeat.
 
user1804599
@Nooble I want to scale horizontally so those accounts can all be created and managed in parallel.
 
@JerryCoffin All right. I really need to start getting my hands dirty. It seems if I want to help improving C++, I need to know how to extend a compiler
 
10:16 PM
also
extending Clang to perform this task would involve absolutely zero lexing and parsing.
 
user1804599
I could also go fuck myself, so to say.
 
user1804599
Which might be quite fun.
 
you'd be talking about the guts of their analyzer and LLVM IR emission.
 
right, for this feature there is no lexing nor parsing involved
 
also, the LLVM Kaleidoscope tutorial really isn't so bad, if you can see past the terrible code design involved and just look at the abstract concepts
 
user1804599
10:18 PM
Kaleidoglobalscope
 
@rightføld a prostatic brain would be more fun
 
indeed.
 
user1804599
@AndyProwl :(
 
anyway I generally found that it was easy to be afraid of doing stuff that I had no idea about, but I also found that if you just get cracking, it's a lot easier.
 
I didn't mean to make you sad
 
user1804599
10:19 PM
Typical compiler design.
 
user1804599
Kaleidoscope is better designed than most software.
 
honestly
I am beginning to believe that we should have a category for "Compiler Developers".
and it would be about the same as "Game Developers"
 
Why? Do they put SingletonManagers everywhere?
 
user1804599
How about people who build compilers as part of their games?
 
there are definitely a few Singletons (not named that way) in LLVM.
and a few in Clang too I believe.
 
user1804599
10:21 PM
Unit is my favourite singleton.
 
user1804599
I like Nil as well.
 
but they both have some particularly dubious habits and poor OO skills in general.
I would take some time out to rebuild both libraries, but, well, that would be a few decades work.
@rightføld Even worse.
 
user1804599
AbstractCompilerManager
 
ISourceFile
 
user1804599
I put artificial files in bottles and sell them as "source files" for way too much money.
 
10:24 PM
I'm reading a book on patterns (yeah I know patterns) in games (yeah I know games), and apart from the usage of owning raw pointers, I think it's reasonably well written
perhaps not all game developers are bad
 
if the guy uses owning raw pointers, he doesn't know shit about C++ and how to use it.
 
well, yes and no
 
user1804599
@AndyProwl I rate the code of Pork higher-quality than the code of any other game.
 
so far I've not observed anybody whose advice was worth taking who made that mistake.
 
user1804599
I am the best game developer.
3
 
10:25 PM
@AndyProwl Not all game developers are bad. It's one of the cases where 99% of them give the other 1% a bad name.
 
@StackOver Nice name.
 
@Nooble I'll get one myself later
maybe Feb or Mar
I want a new keyboard and headphones next month
 
@Puppy he's not advising to use owning raw pointers. Quite the opposite to be fair. He just uses them because they are simpler to understand for people who don't know C++, and his book is not targeted only at C++ developers
 
so I don't want to waste money on SSDs
 
at least this is what he claims
and indeed apart from the absence of Modern C++ what he writes is mostly reasonable
 
10:26 PM
@AlexM. I heard Razer Blackwidow 2014s are good.
 
user1804599
Well, owning raw pointers are a pattern in game development.
 
And so are Corsair K70's
 
I don't know, I'll see about it then
all I know right now is that I want the white steelseries siberia
 
@JerryCoffin lol
 
user1804599
Speaking of raw pointers.
 
user1804599
10:27 PM
I want some raw beef.
 
@rightføld Kill a cow.
 
user1804599
It's délicieux.
 
I have zero food here
 
@AndyProwl Hmm...so what sort of food do zeros eat, anyway?
 
:20638140 Huehue.
 
user1804599
10:28 PM
@AndyProwl Order shitloads of military rations.
 
@JerryCoffin oh god
(yes you)
 
user1804599
You'll never have to throw away any food.
 
:P
@rightføld A pizza would suffice
 
user1804599
Shitloads of pizzas?
 
No just one
Without shit loads on it
 
user1804599
10:29 PM
Then you'll soon run out of food again!
 
@JerryCoffin Gotta admit that OmnipotentEntity from time to time does make an appearance and maybe say some vaguely wise things.
 
@AlexM. You shouldn't buy headsets. Why not just get excellent headphones and add in a Modmic?
 
@rightføld But then I'll promptly order another one
at least in theory
 
user1804599
Bulk import food.
 
@Puppy Your recognition does you honor, my son. :-)
 
10:30 PM
Headsets usually have poor quality microphones.
 
@Nooble because I like headsets
in particular the white siberia
 
user1804599
> 5-Year-Shelflife Survival Food Ration for Liferaft
> Min. Order Quantity: 500 Piece/Pieces
 
@JerryCoffin Well, there's no point in pissing on that one guy just because virtually every other game dev in the world still hasn't gotten over Singletons.
 
@AlexM. You can make a headset. The modmic is basically a boom mic that can be attached to any pair of headphones.
 
@Nooble At one time (just because I had one) I used a Shure SM56 for talking on Skype and such. Then I got married and my wife decided to tidy things up and get rid of that junk I wasn't using...
 
10:33 PM
@Nooble if you find me white siberias without mic sure
also modmic doesn't deliver to romania
 
@AlexM. Oh.
 
also $50 just for a mic?
 
Darn.
 
@Nooble Interesting. Looks like it would fit my headphones quite nicely (from the pictures, they've already tested that exact combo).
 
I just want these because of positional audio and holy shit they look so cool pixel.hu/pictures/termekek/SteelSeries_Siberia_Frost.jpeg
 
10:36 PM
oh hey jerry
you're super old and wise and shit
expensive bedding, or cheap bedding
 
> super old
 
known fact.
 
@Puppy Sorry, I got nothing for you on that.
 
@JerryCoffin Here is an audio test.
It sounds pretty good.
 
user1804599
@Puppy sleep on a rock
 
user1804599
10:38 PM
I like sleeping on a mattress on the ground.
 
@JerryCoffin I think I'll have to downgrade you to just "super old and shit"
 
I should really stop shell-ing swi-prolog from my app and just use the official C API
but ugh that means I have to do things to use C from D
 
I'm hungry
 
auto process = executeShell("prolog -q -f " ~ knowledgeBaseFile ~ " -g '" ~ question ~ "' -t 'halt(1)'");
return process.output;
good enough
it's not like my life depends on this
yet
 
guys can we ask questions here?
 
10:42 PM
how many people are you?
 
no
 
@Rod_Algonquin Yes, no, maybe. See the rules.
 
you guess
@Puppy awww T_T
@AndyProwl it said privacy error
 
it means you're invading people's privacy
you're a stalker
 
da fudge
no im not a stalker
well does search model a stalker?
 
10:44 PM
basically, you can ask, but you cannot expect people to answer
more likely than not they will ignore you. Except Puppy, he will bark at you.
 
And I'll make the sound Koala's make.
Because I'm terribly inexperienced.
 
@AndyProwl ohhkit
@Nooble do koala's make sound?
 
btw if X has plonked Y and Y's message gets starred, does X see that message on the starboard?
 
@Rod_Algonquin Of course they do!
 
@AndyProwl Of course they do!
 
10:48 PM
@AlexM. All right. Curiosity
 
@AndyProwl Party. Pooper.
 
@Puppy I guess I'll have to try to emulate Sam: "He never claimed to be a god, but he never claimed not to be a god."
 
@JerryCoffin "When someone asks you, if you're a god, you say YES"
 
If you don't get the reference, you really need to read Lord of Light.
 
I'm starving
 
10:56 PM
eat something
I have some pizza pictures if you think it will help :P
 
@JerryCoffin I really need to think about upping my dose.
 
@AlexM. Yes please.
 
@AlexM. I'm craving for pizza
but it's too late for delivery
which means NO DON'T POST PICTURES
:P
 
don't you have 24/24 del...
oh, xmas
 
nope
oh we don't have it even on normal days
 
10:59 PM
well, at least you don't live in my hometown
the best pizza place here makes so much money throughout the year
that they can afford to close shop during the holidays for 4 full weeks
I'm serious
 
indeed I think I don't live there
the question is whether I live in a better place
 
they're closed right now, and will stay closed until some time in mid january
which pisses me off
I got the chance to get one pizza since I got here
and I'll leave before they open again
 
@AlexM. I knew a restaurant owner who worked 3 months a year - in Rimini, quite popular tourist destination not far from where I lived. He earned so much money that he spent the rest of the year on holiday around the world.
He did work like an ass 24/7 for those three months, though
ok I guess he slept at some point but the restaurant was open all the time and whenever I went there, he was there
 
well, that only makes the holidays more relaxing
 
perhaps he understood life better than me
I work like an ass pretty much 24/7/52/365
and I don't make money
 
11:13 PM
no € at all?
 
all right I do earn money but not enough to spend or save significant amounts
(not € though)
 
Would you code for three months then travel nine if given the opportunity?
prolly not great code when starting a cycle :)
 
I would definitely code for three months and then do whatever I want for nine months. Not necessarily travelling
Part of whatever I want may end up being coding
But without people telling what I should work on
 
yea
are you a consultant?
 
nope, I'm a mere programmer
a low and insignificant programmer
inhabiting the lowest layers of the Company's pyramid
 
11:24 PM
same here
 
what are you working on?
 
my company does electron microscopes, I work on the software that controls them
 
low level or high level?
 
mid level. Not UI, not embedded code
 
the product sounds fun imo
not just shovel stuff from a db to ui and back
without knowing much about it
What level of magnification do you get with sem? Do you see atoms?
 
11:34 PM
with the more powerful ones you do
for some definition of "see"
you basically see white dots where the atoms are or something like that
however our branch does not produce those microscopes
 
that sounds like an awesome job
I push things in front of players to nag them about buying in app consumables or other games >.>
 
the domain is interesting, the job itself... depends
for the first 3 years I've been doing almost exclusively bugfixing and that was not fun
horrible code, no tests, nightmare
 
last year and a half I've been doing more of a research work and I enjoy it very much
there's a bit of robotics, a bit of physics, a bit of mathematics, it's really enjoyable
would be perfect if we could use Clang
 
Ell
sounds groovy
 
11:39 PM
unfortunately we have to use VS2013 and most of the code also has to build with VS2010
plus COM
that's the ugly part
the nicest thing about it is that it's a very interdisciplinary environment
 
LLVM-VS not gonna cut it?
 
nope
 
@AndyProwl all the good things in life
 
@JohanLarsson what do you do?
 
actually a bit similar, we make NC-machines & robots. Not allowed to tell much.
 
11:54 PM
I understand
 
I used to draw them in CAD but switched to programming last year.
 
do you work on stuff like motion planning and collision detection? (if you're not allowed to tell, just ignore)
 
My job is still mech designer.
 
oh, ok
 
@AndyProwl yes, the current project does not have much of that though.
 
11:57 PM
interesting
 
there is a problem with expensive crashes though so there is work to be done there.
 
we have similar issues
 

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