« first day (1501 days earlier)      last day (3463 days later) » 

8:02 PM
(you made me look at codepen)
this is cool
 
@rlemon Is the illusion that it looks like it's going back and forth, but it's really just spinning in place?
 
@m59 ask around here - we're all on JS and no one here thinks that question fits SO. You should open a blog.
 
@Retsam other way around
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Linkies?
His recent answers page didn't enlighten
 
11
A: Popular helpful question/answer deleted rather than locked

Benjamin GruenbaumThat is a horrible question for Stack Overflow. It is completely subjective, it discusses X vs Y and not solving a specific problem. There actually is a correct version of it discussing the shift from jQuery to Angular in methodology and mindset - this is not that question. Locking it would make...

 
8:07 PM
@rlemon Ah; I see, it's each particle moves in a straight line, but looks like it's spinning around.
 
yup
 
m59
@BenjaminGruenbaum Florian said otherwise. I don't care. I just don't see a need to make me sound foolish over it.
 
@m59 since you are a friend I expect better from you - that's all.
You're a competent guy, you see the problem with these questions right?
You see how that question is opnion based and huge right?
And how although you understand these concepts you can't really explain framework vs library in a sentence or paragraph and so on.
 
m59
I can see your point, but I don't find it opinion based and it's not nearly as broad as others that are far more promoted.
 
@rlemon made it better :P codepen.io/MateiGCopot/pen/MYwoXd
 
8:14 PM
@m59 Really?
 
m59
As I commented, it seems like someone would need a summary of the topics in order to do more research on them. (I also said this in my answer)
 
cough tag-wiki cough
 
if your using '&' in a directive, why do you need to do functionName()(param1)?
 
Let's talk about frameworks for example: why do you think frameworks provide security?
 
8:15 PM
Or modular architecture for that matter...
 
m59
3659
Q: "Thinking in AngularJS" if I have a jQuery background?

Mark RajcokSuppose I'm familiar with developing client-side applications in jQuery, but now I'd like to start using AngularJS. Can you describe the paradigm shift that is necessary? Here are a few questions that might help you frame an answer: How do I architect and design client-side web applications dif...

 
Right, and that question is completely different.
It's not a vs.
It doesn't bash jQuery
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I think the point is you didn't have to be that harsh with your meta answer, that's all.
 
@SecondRikudo I shouldn't have had to write that answer in the first place because @m59 is a bright guy and shouldn't have asked that question to begin with.
 
m59
8:16 PM
I was told to by people in the Tavern
and I was there because of opinions of people in this room
 
It was not my intention to sound rude to m59. These sort of questions single handedly bring web development back.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum questioning the on-topicness of an answer is always fine
 
lol thats some hyperbole
 
@SecondRikudo the answer isn't the issue, the question is.
 
Also, I don't see what is wrong with keeping that post there... deleting that post is more de-constructive, imo.
 
8:18 PM
@SecondRikudo in general? Yes. This is not the "general case" though, he's a room regular, an experienced dev and a well versed SO user.
 
@AwalGarg if you see ten people butt in line, you start to think it is acceptable to line-cut
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum And still, the 'be nice' rule still applies.
 
@TravisJ's answer says practically the same things as you
 
It seems as if the point of Stackoverflow is drifting from helping people to more curated organic documentation
 
8:19 PM
But it does so in a much less aggressive and somewhat condescending way.
 
@rlemon ...and you think deleting that single post is gonna help in any way?
 
m59
I don't know how I could know better. A lot of people lean toward my way of thinking. How else do you think that it keeps getting undeleted and was reopened? I agree that it was originally close-worthy, but I didn't know better then.
I think after the edit that was suggested, it's not as problematic.
 
It's fine you didn't know better than but you know better now.
 
@AwalGarg the question is bad and shouldn't be there. the answer is full of great information which can also be placed in other locations so people can still benefit from it (imo)
 
I'm not blaming you for trying to help, and overall I think it would make a good blog post.
I'd read it, I'd +1 it on HN even.
It's just very bad to have these questions in SO.
 
8:20 PM
Again, not the issue.
I don't have a particularly strong opinion on whether it should be deleted, locked or neither
 
m59
Like I said, I really don't care... I'm just stuck in between a lot of differing opinions from far more experienced users than myself.
 
But I do think that your meta answer was a bit of an overreaction.
 
m59
I cared more originally because I didn't understand what "historical significance" was all about.
 
@SecondRikudo these questions tend to spread misinformation, lots of it.
 
And I definitely don't think that @m59 should be caught in the crossfire because he brought it up.
 
8:21 PM
I'm not seeing what is intensely rude in the meta answer -- maybe I'm just looking past it? @SecondRikudo what is the problem with the post?
 
It's not historical, it's a relatively new question.
 
@rlemon yeah, but we don't have any way to put that answer anywhere else. Deleting that post is not gonna help at all, and no need to do something which is not gonna help at all, considering that it is removing "useful" information.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum isn't that the point of the voting system?
To reduce the spread of misinformation
 
@SecondRikudo I wouldn't criticize him as liberally if I didn't know him beforehand.
 
@AwalGarg no, you're ignoring the detrimental effects of "this is an acceptable question, look dude got 300 upvotes. 5 people are just stupid and closed it"
 
8:22 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum Touche, but it does seem to bother him.
 
@Loktar yes - but it doesn't work in opinion based questions. Just imagine how many upvotes would a "vote +1 for Angular -1 for Java" get (or downvotes)
 
m59
In light of our last conversation that was very important to me, it's easy to think you mean it offensively.
 
What was our last conversation about? I don't remember? (I remember a lot of discussions, not sure what the last one was)
 
@rlemon so add a moderator note that this question should not be taken as an example to ask other similar questions... Not necessarily a historical-significance lock, just a clear, simple, elegantly visible note.
 
I know I sound harsh and like I'm overreacting - maybe I am, but these questions tend to be a real problem and undo a lot of good work that happens in SO to progress web development.
 
8:24 PM
How?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum How?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I don't think that they are.
 
Because it's opinion-based
 
I think that @m59 actually breaks a lot of myths about it.
 
@copy in this case its not
Its comparing apples and oranges, the asker just had no idea realy
 
m59
8:25 PM
I was arguing the point of presuppositional apologetics as put forth by Van Til and Greg Bahnsen, and your summary of my position is that I'm a copy/paste, under-studied philosopher.
 
> In my opinion, the angular approach wins in all regards, especially …
From the answer
 
@Loktar They sound objective and peer reviewed because they're on SO but voting on them is often driven by like or dislike of the framework, they go out of date fast especially if they're closed and they often confuse people by shoving a lot of very broad sometimes difficult to understand concepts.
 
@copy People will always ask "What should I use? jQuery or Angular?" and I think that having an answer to that question explaining that the two can't really be compared is a good thing.
 
Guys, why are you arguing about jQuery and Angular, when clearly KO is the best?
 
"Look there is a close-vote reason named as 'opinion-based'. NO QUESTION SHALL LIVE OPINION BASED NOW!!!!!"
 
8:26 PM
yeah I am looking at this very narrowly
just at this specific question
People ask it all the time
 
@SecondRikudo no, it's not. "Which should I learn first? Java or Python?" "Which should I make? A desktop app or a mobile app?" "Which should I use? Angular 1.2 or Angular 1.3?"
 
@Retsam +1
 
@Retsam lol
 
m59
@Retsam heh, read my post, that would be Durandal ;D
 
@Loktar people ask "for the code" all the time. ;)
 
8:26 PM
These questions undo a lot of work, discredit SO and spread misinformation.
 
@rlemon and I give it to them.
I personally dont mind that like I've said before (unless they're rude)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum The first two cannot be answered at all
 
No one intends to spread misinformation, it just happens because of these questions. Obviously both parties involved (question and answer) want to help.
 
The last one can be edited to "What are the differences between Angular 1.2 and 1.3?"
 
@SecondRikudo Neither can jQuery vs Angular.
@SecondRikudo that's because they're comparable.
 
8:27 PM
There is nothing like "mis-information" in that answer... even if there is, there is a complimentary edit button.
 
It's not a "what's the advantages and disadvantages of data-binding"
 
@Loktar eh, it's a hard line to define, but I don't like "gimmie deh codez!" questions (and for that matter, neither does SO according to meta posts)
 
It's not a "what's the advantages or disadvantages of using DI in web SPAs?"
It's just - "jQuery vs Angular"
 
if there is even a hint of effort then the line moves back a little (for me)
 
The only thing I'd change with @m59's answer is that I'd put the "The two can't be reasonably compared" section at the top.
 
8:28 PM
@AwalGarg questions that are opinion based or compare frameworks are inherently bound to contain misinformation.
 
@SecondRikudo That and remove the rest
 
Should the question have been answered to begin with? Probably not.
 
It shouldn't have, and it just does damage.
 
But since it has, and has been well, I don't think that we should void a useful contribution.
 
8:29 PM
Move to blog.m59.org
 
Like I said - it could be an awesome blog post, and I don't want to discredit @m59 or his effort here.
 
Well, that's @m59's call then.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum then quote me some of it from that answer. And also edit it to be correct. Problem solved.
 
@AwalGarg I can play that game: 1) frameworks don't provide security.
 
@AwalGarg That's, again, @m59's call.
 
m59
8:30 PM
My call is eff it, I could really use some js advice.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Then edit it... as I said.
 
Fire away
 
@m59 generic advice? always use a linter/hinter and strict mode saves headaches
 
@AwalGarg It would take 50 pages to answer it properly, or a book.
 
@copy psh there aren't SO points there :P
 
8:31 PM
@m59 shoot.
 
m59
browserify makes all the sense in the world until you consider that loading scripts async sounds like a good idea.
 
@m59 webpack
commonjs + async loading
 
@m59 why?
 
@Loktar But nice visitor graphs etc.
 
m59
I dunno. I just see like 100 debates between AMD and CommonJS
 
8:31 PM
@copy I love me some archives section
 
m59
So, I'm once again trying to do something arbitrary and can't decide how ;D
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum ...you pointed out a very specific line from that answer, which you believe is incorrect. I am saying that you edit that very specific part... what is out of place here?
 
Honestly: I'm sorry if I sound like a douche and I have respect for you and didn't mean to "bash you". It just looked like you wanted to preserve a subjective, extremely off topic question which does harm to new users to get rep and to have a nice shiney +200 answer to show.
 
m59
@Loktar checking it out
 
8:32 PM
Async loading makes sense for large apps
 
@Loktar why?
 
@AwalGarg I can find 20 such lines and it doesn't cover half of the considerations involved. It's also opinion based.
 
m59
@BenjaminGruenbaum I truly just want to do whatever is best, and everyone disagrees on what that is.
So, I'm just staying out of it from now on.
 
@FlorianMargaine why make a user download everything when they only need a little bit
or even half?
 
@m59 be proactive, copy it into a blog post and then see what the communities long term stance is
 
8:33 PM
especially for large apps, I'd rather rely on caching once than loading something every time you go to a new route
 
then it is a win no matter what. people still get to read your post.
 
@FlorianMargaine but youll cache the new routes as you go?
so whats the problem?
if they go to them twice no additional hit
if they never hit it to begin with, less downloaded to begin with
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum stop repeating the thing that it is opinion based, so it is bad. I know it is opinion based. You have only pointed out a single line both here, and in the meta answer.
 
@Loktar you'll have only one load time, not 10
 
8:34 PM
one potentially long load time, or 10 small less noticeable ones
you could also break it up with your core app being loaded at once
 
m59
Let's talk specifics
 
and less used fringe cases loaded async
 
m59
I'm doing such an arbitrary thing here - just twitter social buttons
I need to load the twitter lib first
 
you have a hello world example of using webpack?
 
and what about MOBILE dun dun dun
@FlorianMargaine lol sadly no
Im still using browserify
 
8:35 PM
We're using webpack, it's quite nice.
 
@Room: I'm committing an atrocity -> I'm migrating from purecss.io to twitter boostrap :o
<insert generic insult here>
 
It can do a lot of things.
 
iiuc, you could swap out browserify for webpack, no?
 
Sometimes I judge people here on the quality of their debating skills.
 
Ok - 5 more: 1) "When it comes to technology, "Google says so" is enough for me. They've earned that." 2) "Misko Hevery is a better developer than you.
Probably.. Yes, I'm claiming that you should at least consider using Angular " 3) ". You can write bad Angular code, but it's much more difficult to do so, because Angular will fight you about it." 4) "Angular promotes all code being modular, reusable, and easily testable" 5) "Angular promotes all code being modular, reusable, and easily testable"
@AwalGarg want 5 more?
 
8:36 PM
Or at least the psychological aspect of thus.
 
m59
Note to self: remove all personality from my writing
It was meant to be funny. Not my strong suit, I guess.
 
It's OK to voice your opinion strongly, really, it's just not good to have your answer revolve around it - you can put that on your blog.
 
2 mins ago, by Florian Margaine
you have a hello world example of using webpack?
 
@FlorianMargaine the docs are shit.
 
@m59 "Why did the chicken cross the road? Because someone wanted a comparison between Angular and JQuery on the side he was previously on..... but seriously, comparing apples and oranges and this is why:"
 
8:38 PM
and it does some pretty scary rewriting shit when it bundles stuff.
 
(just an example of a nerdy joke that could have been used, I like jokes)
 
yeah... you can't build a simple example in a gist or something?
 
I don't even know what hello world would look like
It's just commonjs modules + a config file
 
I would say I will try, but I've been failing at everything I want to do lately
I want to do a lot, I get home and do nothing but mess with my computer
 
console.log(require('./hello')); // prints "hello world"
 
8:39 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum What is wrong with 1? 2 could be edited or just removed. 3 can be transformed to say the contrary about jquery, and that would be perfect. 4 and 5 are dupes of each other.
 
@phenomnomnominal what would the config file look like for this ^*2
 
@FlorianMargaine that would just generate
file with webpack -- webpacks power is multiple loaders
 
31 secs ago, by Florian Margaine
@phenomnomnominal what would the config file look like for this ^*2
 
@AwalGarg What's wrong about 1? You think "You should do X because company Y says so" is a valid argument in technology? Or anywhere? It's just an appeal to authority.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum It would be actually very much constructive if you do.
 
@AwalGarg I can find 15 more such things in that answer until there is nothing in it but the code sample. In fact - it'd just leave it at what @copy said as "You can't really compare them."
 
m59
@BenjaminGruenbaum Appeal to Authority is not a fallacy when used properly.
 
@m59 I can't believe you just said that. Appeal to authority is a fallacy.
 
In before god
12
 
module.exports = {
    entry: "./js/app.js",
    output: {
        path: __dirname,
        filename: "bundle.js"
    }
}
 
8:41 PM
Awwww I thought we dropped it.
 
"There are smart people at Google" is not an argument for using Google's stuff.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum That company Y is not just a company. It is a big big big company. They have earned that.
 
"Misko Havery" is smart is not an argument for using his stuff.
 
@copy whatever he was here first.
 
@AwalGarg they really haven't.
 
m59
 
@AwalGarg Microsoft made clippy
7
 
haha, but clippy is badass
 
lol
 
@Zirak Clippy was awesome.
 
@m59 that is the definition of irony.
 
8:42 PM
I miss Clippy, sometimes I goto root-access room just to get clippy
 
I liked the dog too
 
Has everyone seen ClippyJS? Gonna find that
 
wth was his name?
@BenjaminGruenbaum lol yes! Its great
 
doggie?
 
@Loktar no man, the wizard! THE WIZARD!!
 
8:42 PM
Microbone?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum yeah we seen it
 
DA WIZAARD!!!
 
@SecondRikudo I still use Clippy
 
@Zirak is the one that should be having these arguments not me :P
 
8:43 PM
oh u ninja'd way before
 
That's not even ninjaing
 
m59
@phenomnomnominal what? I used my appeal to authority in the way we all do. Do you disbelieve your doctors when they tell you you're sick?
 
btw @Zirak I linked you in a message, can you clear some confusion about that? (It is a pretty long message, sorry for that).
 
@m59 have you ever actually listened to Google's lectures about Angular or Misko Havery?
 
m59
Not sure. Like what?
 
8:44 PM
They're the furthest thing apart from "You should all use Angular"
 
@m59 no, I go to the doctor because I feel sick. Then they show me evidence that determines what is wrong with me.
 
^ +1
 
Also, if there are several doctors talking - "we should listen to doctor X because he's the smartest" is a bad argument. We're all programmers here.
 
@phenomnomnominal can't help it
this chat runs like 3 seconds behind time for me
 
@darkyen00 :(
 
8:45 PM
in C#, 3 mins ago, by Charlie Brown
come to think about it... when are they not arguing about stuff?
We have a reputation
 
Google also made Google Wave, and GWT and a lot of other bad stuff.
 
m59
> I'm claiming that you should at least consider using Angular (if appropriate for your application) because Google made it.
 
@m59 People ask for a second opinion exactly because they're unsure
 
Maybe you should try GWT, and dart and do your web development in those.
 
come on, wave rocked
 
m59
8:45 PM
keyword: consider
 
Anybody Got Windows 7 CD / DVD >\
 
@m59 keyword: "because Google made it"
 
@KendallFrey rofl
 
That's a very bad argument
 
@m59 If Google think Angular is so great, why isn't Youtube made in Angular?
 
8:46 PM
"because google made it" is a poor excuse to consider something.
"because it will solve XYZ problems" is an excuse to consider something.
 
@darkyen00 o/
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I'm not sure what your point is there. The gulf between the best programmers and the worst is much greater than that between the best and the worst doctors, and people do do that with doctors
 
send me it ?
 
@phenomnomnominal legacy
 
via skype ?
or any file sharing utility _/_ I will send u hand made cookies
 
8:46 PM
@FlorianMargaine shhh, I know that :P
 
Fresh outlook on how to structure SPAs? Cool data binding features? Great community? Lots of examples for use cases? Interesting architecture? Naaa..... you should use it because Google made it.
 
m59
@rlemon as though I made no other point prior to that?
 
@darkyen00 Like thepiratebay?
 
m59
I'm pretty sure you guys are just on a witchhunt.
Peace.
 
@TomW bad doctors might, but we don't want to aspire to give bad advice in SO.
@m59 we're not on a witchhunt, we're debating it with you.
 
8:47 PM
@m59 I'm not commenting on those. I'm just pointing that out. and NO ONE IS BASHING YOU! we're talking about whether that question was on topic and whether or not it is actually helpful for it to be on SO
 
@phenomnomnominal it's actually a bad argument :P google teams rewrite everything every couple years
 
@darkyen00 you want me to upload you a 3.5gig installation disk easily available (legally) for direct download on the internet?
 
@AwalGarg I dunno, heard something vague about it before, never looked into it.
 
@m59 In order to be in a witchhunt we'd have to have some motive, or something against you - you're a respected member of this community which is exactly why I'm saying what I think to your face. Just like @FlorianMargaine told me he thought I was out of line earlier in comments for example.
 
!!tell darkyen00 google msft digitalriver windows 7 direct download links
 
@phenomnomnominal YouTube isn't made in Angular. YouTube kind of sucks right now. Angular ftw. Q.E.D.
 
@phenomnomnominal Actually I'm surprised they haven't written Inbox in Polymer
 
Seems legit.
 
Also, I don't like inbox. hides
 
Even stuff like "it's harder to write bad code with Angular," is completely absurd.
 
8:49 PM
It's always easy to write bad code.
 
@Ammar Welcome to the JavaScript chat! Please review the room pseudo-rules. Please don't ask if you can ask or if anyone's around; just ask your question, and if anyone's free and interested they'll help.
 
@Zirak same, however I think it is because I'm so overly used to gmail
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I think I get it, but it was obtuse. Some doctors are better at treating, say, ass cancer, than others, but it's fair to say that all doctors are smart, so if the not so good doctors aren't satisfactory, it isn't because of their smartness.
is that it?
 
@Zirak ohh... I was pretty interested in knowing what exactly caused that kind of behavior, and is that officially recognized or not. Did some research but didn't found anything, so resorted to asking you. If you ever look at it, please ping me with that.
 
@phenomnomnominal I dunno, I've seen code so bad that even if I had tried my best I wouldn't have came to that.
 
8:49 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum I have heard that argument for every fucking framework
 
@SecondRikudo You need to work on your defactoring.
 
@tereško and it wasn't true the first time :D
 
@phenomnomnominal I read that as defecating, which honestly is a perfectly fine way of reading that.
 
@rlemon You have 10 unread emails. Try selecting 2-8 and marking them as read.
GGRRR
 
It is harder to write bad Angular code can be written as it is very easy to write bad angular code.
 
8:50 PM
@CapricaSix outdated
 
@TomW we're all programmers here - this is like an ass cancer doctor convention article (the post) and he's basically saying "treat the way doctor Foo does because he's smart, if your case is remotely similar to his"
 
Monthly challenge: take the code you are proudest of right now, and turn it into complete shit.
 
Hi, I'm trying to implement rtl chart with jqxChart, but the main problem is with legends with always appears ltr.
 
@darkyen00 who said? They are the final releases of Windows7 SP1 available in disks.
 
@phenomnomnominal So rewrite in [target language to mock here]?
 
8:51 PM
@Ammar (disclaimer: I've never used these plugins) you would get more of a response if you had some sort of demo to go along with your question ready. "hey all, this demo is screwing up here, here and here. Can someone take a look around line 42 and see what I'm missing?"
 
@phenomnomnominal And that, my friends, is how you create psychopaths.
 
@Retsam yes
 
Anyway, I'm out (for real) - off to get ready for the flight. See you all Sunday except for the people I'm seeing Friday.
 
@Ammar I always find people are much more receptive of questions if you have code and/or a demo to show the problem with.
 
8:52 PM
Challenge of the month: Rewrite NodeJS with PHP
 
@phenomnomnominal that requires you to leave it untouched for 3 month
it doesn't need any additional effort
 
sure I'll post a jsfiddle in few minutes
 
@Ammar and do you have a demo of your attempted rtl?
kk -- you'll probably get some replies when you do (not a promise, just a tip)
 
@tereško yes, but you only have one month to do it, that's the challenge :P
 
Step 1: invent time machine... Step 2: ??? .... Step 3: Win JS Challenge!
 
8:54 PM
here is the demo for rtl from the plugin home page: jqwidgets.com/jquery-widgets-demo/demos/jqxchart/…
 
hmm ... that's a good challenge then, but it kinda depends on everyone else learning too
 
they don't have any other parameters for rtl.
I just want to put the colored label right to the text
 
you are right but the colored label is always to left
in rtl languages it should be to the right
 
user457812
I'm a sadist. What's the best compile-to-JS language to get my coworkers to appreciate my sadism?
 
user457812
Noted. I'll rewrite a few internal services in it and see to it that nobody can ever disentangle that shit.
 

« first day (1501 days earlier)      last day (3463 days later) »