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Xeo
6:00 PM
Whee, prepaid credit card finally arrived
... time to back the Clannad KickStarter
> Congratulations! You are now an official backer of CLANNAD Official English Release.
finally \o/
 
Wait, what did you do with the CC credentials I gave you?
 
@Xeo you should receive a nobel prize :P
 
user1804599
I think I'm going to rename Styx to Feti, so may I ever implement a Unix shell in it then I could name it Fetish.
 
Xeo
@Jefffrey wat
 
nvm, dumb joke
 
user1804599
6:04 PM
@Jefffrey Sold them to me.
 
posted on November 17, 2014 by Stephan T. Lavavej - MSFT

Visual Studio 2015 Preview is now available , so here's an updated feature table for the Core Language:   C++11 Core Language Features VS 2013 VS 2015 Preview Notes Rvalue references Partial Yes   ref-qualifiers No Yes   Non-static data member initializers...(read more)

 
user1804599
Buying CC details seems silly.
 
lol
(a =! b) -> (a = !b)Rapptz 19 secs ago
 
Xeo
@Rapptz There's a dupe for that somewhere
 
> Expression SFINAE | No | No
Oh well.
Can't find two-phase lookup.
 
6:14 PM
they said they're not going to add two phase lookup until the far far future
also they added noexcept, yay
 
@Rapptz They could still keep mentioning that fact, at least.
Preferably at the very top of every such list.
 
/r/cpp was circlejerking about VS being the best IDE of all time a few days ago
 
with special appearance from Eric Niebler :p
 
Why use Visual Studio at all :/
 
6:18 PM
I have no idea
The editor isn't even that great
 
Whatever the reason is, it's the best ever.
 
The only reason I like it is because I'm used to it and I'm too lazy to learn Vim and set it up properly
 
you don't have to use vim, just a better editor you're comfortable with
visual studio's editor capabilities are pretty subpar tbh
here's the previous discussion about VS 2015
@R.MartinhoFernandes I really thought his first comment was way more baffling lol
> Best IDE anywhere. I spend a lot of time cursing the whole Linux dev toolchain. It boggles my mind how far the open source community has come without a productive dev environment. And don't even get me started on gdb.
:s
 
> I always have the idea that I am using intellisense wrong. It is so incredibly slow compared to Qt Creator when it comes to navigating code.

Sure, Qt Creator is not always complete, especially in heavily templated code. But in most circumstances it blows intellisense out of the water.
Voice of reason!
Not like IntelliSense works anything in heavily templated code.
 
I've used GDB and I didn't find it that convenient to use.
 
6:24 PM
learning curve is a bit odd
 
Intellisense is useless in anything that's not C#
 
I can watch some_vector[0]. That's a win.
 
I looked up a couple tutorials online and I was good to go
took maybe 15 minutes tbh
 
@TonyTheLion I don't think anyone ever accused GDB of being convenient to use. It's functional, that's its main selling point :p
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes With which one?
 
6:25 PM
@jalf good point
 
I don't really find gdb that inconvenient
especially with -tui
 
The VS debugger is convenient to use, and I feel that it's pretty good at the things it does do. The problem is that it fundamentally doesn't understand C++
if you're writing C, I suspect it'd be just fine
 
you mean the GUI aspect makes it convenient?
 
user1804599
I have an interesting problem.
 
@Rapptz the GUI and the integration into the IDE, and the fact that you don't have to jump through any hoops to use it or set it up
shrug, YMMV
 
6:28 PM
I remember the first time I compiled something with GCC I was baffled that I had to manually type in all the files I wanted it to compile, whereas in VC++ I just had to press a button and magic happened.
 
But beyond the whole "what's a member function? How do templates work? And namespaces? And operators? What do you mean, evaluate an expression?" thing, I don't have any major problems with the VC++ debugger
2
 
lol
The most annoying thing has to be its inability to evaluate expressions
 
lol
 
No one ever needed that when debugging.
 
6:30 PM
Apparently no one at MS thinks that its all that important
 
@TonyTheLion AFAIK it does that fairly well as long as the expression is straight C code
 
@TonyTheLion I remember the first time I had to compile with GCC, I was pissed because it rejected what I thought was perfectly fine code. I think you can guess that it wasn't and had a lot of MS extensions.
 
that's my point. It's a perfectly decent debugger, except it doesn't understand the language it is most commonly used with
typical Microsoft, somehow
 
user1804599
UGH
 
user1804599
I want : or , depending on #ifndef.
2
 
6:35 PM
Can anyone tell me a good reason to nest try {}catch{} statements, where the inner ones don't even catch any specialized exceptions
 
user1804599
Hmm wait, I have a better way.
 
@TonyTheLion obfuscation or deliberate code bloating?
 
@Mgetz this is production code, so I hope its not obfuscation. More likely it was written by an utter moron
 
@TonyTheLion oooh I thought you meant aside from that
 
probably a refactoring that inlined functions and one had a try-catch block
 
6:38 PM
its all in the same function
 
That's what inlining does to you.
 
it has an outer try catch and then some if statements and then a try catch within each if statement that looks the same as the outer one
 
@CatPlusPlus the developer went full retard and filed a fake dmca claim on that video lol
he has no idea that is illegal
and the guy he filed against is associated with something that is associated with Disney
 
> This is not much of an f you to the world as it is to my long time employer. Every year we get gift cards of various amounts. I use mine exclusively for toilet paper, this way my boss is paying to wipe my ass all year long.
 
also rockstar took the next step to show the world how games on steam are supposed to be owned and not rented, and how steam should offer refunds at any point in time
they released an update to san andreas which actually removes content
and the customers can't do anything about it
you buy a game now, and in a week an update is released that removes content from it
it's obviously less about rockstar being dicks
 
6:47 PM
Stop buying games from them. They'll stop doing bullshit like that.
 
and more about the owners of the copyright of the music they used (they removed some music)
but still, for the customer this does not matter
you bought a game now and at any point in time an update could remove parts of it
 
user1804599
Is it possible to say at one point that I want a value to be visible to all threads?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeah, if only everyone thought like that
for a broken mess, AC Unity sells better than AC Black Flag
people still buy it even though Ubisoft clearly doesn't give a shit about quality and customers
it's beyond me.
 
Whoa, updates with content removal? Often it's the other way around. :(
 
It's Monday night and I'm bored.
 
6:50 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes it's monday at 1150 and I'm bored
 
Its Monday.... enough said
 
is 1f + 1 equivalent to 1f + (float)1?
 
yes
 
do they result in the same machine code?
 
Rockstar, Ubisoft and EA are all game companies to boycott
 
6:53 PM
why?
what did they do to you?
 
user1804599
ok let's write a multithreaded VM
 
@AlexM. That's how it usually goes unfortunately.
Honestly I have so many gripes with Ubisoft.
They always mess with me and hype me up only to disappoint me.
So I don't care about their games anymore.
 
boycott all the things!
 
there are many more companies that make/publish games outside of those 3 :v
 
6:56 PM
Boycott all the companies! ('cept Valve, I guess)
 
user1804599
I only boycott companies that exclusively make bad games.
 
user1804599
And that's an implicit boycott.
 
I just don't buy bad games. Or bad products in general
It's so simple
 
user1804599
May Ubisoft ever release a good game then I might buy it.
 
exactly dont use imperatives like boycott - buy the game if it's good don't buy if it's not
 
7:01 PM
@rightføld Ubisoft's games are especially ruined by their constant pushing of things that are not even related to the gameplay and don't enhance it in any way
there's this crap in AC Unity, chests with loot that can only be opened if you install their companion app on your phone
 
uplay can go die in a fire
 
I'm serious, they block content from paying customers until they install their app
if you have a Windows Phone, tough luck
 
That's seriously bad.
 
that content's blocked for you, and you can't get it
 
preordering is too blame - you reward developers before they had a chance to deliver...
 
7:02 PM
@AlexM. What about not having a phone?
@mrpyo Er.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I thought the only guy w/o a phone was Stallman
 
Preordering and early access, both are risky.
 
user1804599
@AlexM. Well, I enjoyed Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time.
 
@jalf yes, I don't see the use in it either
especially on top of Steam
it's just an annoying extra program that I must start to play my game
 
Stallman is entirely self-sufficient, he doesn't even need food: youtube.com/watch?v=I25UeVXrEHQ
 
user1804599
7:04 PM
Apart from the terrible pointers, boost::thread_group is nice.
 
user1804599
Seriously wtf y u no references.
 
Yay, they fixed one of the bugs I reported with "hogging" in the title.
(Twas a series)
 
linkage?
 
Being artsy with bugs is what I do.
 
user1804599
And tbb::concurrent_bounded_queue is nice.
 
6
Q: A co-worker is using my cup

Paranoid AndroidI have a co-worker using my coffee mug at work. I want to make him stop without sounding like I'm being picky. I have tried making the point indirectly that the cup belongs to me but he still uses it. What would be the best way to go about this, as I said, without sounding like I'm being fussy.

 
off-topic; move to Programmers
 
> (Note: in a real compiler using base2 = base::base; would require the typename keyword, but that is not needed in a compiler without two-phase lookup like this one)
lol so mean
 
I'm always unforgiving in VC++ bug reports.
 
7:13 PM
robot
no implicit nested lambda captures: big deal?
 
Why does Google Inbox require phone activation, if you can use it on desktop too.
 
@Puppy What do you mean by nested?
 
something like
x(y: int) { return () => () => y; } would be illegal because the outer lambda doesn't capture y
 
what is this syntax m8
 
typescript
also Wide because people bitched (@Xeo)
 
7:17 PM
it's awful
 
user1804599
In TypeScript it's legal because captures are implicit.
 
eh
it's C#'s lambda syntax
I originally had JS/Lua style function(params) { body; }
 
user1804599
lol function is way too long.
 
I think () => stuff is fine
 
λparams. body
 
7:19 PM
you just said it was awful
 
I know
I meant the nested syntax
it's weird looking
not sure why though
I think it's because it has no arguments
 
@Puppy What's the alternative?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Implementing name lookup twice.
or possibly some other serious architectural changes.
 
How would it capture it? By value? By reference?
Shit, I lost.
 
value as usual
 
7:21 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes This. Also (λ params → body)
 
Nearly every language with the functional paradigm (even if just a bit) had the brilliant idea of inventing their own syntax for lambda functions. Why? :s
 
because they have pretty different needs and existing grammars.
 
because most keyboard layouts don't have easy access to the lambda symbol
 
@E_net4 s/lambda functions/anything else/
 
@E_net4 Their own, as opposed to...?
 
7:22 PM
the only thing where two languages have the same grammar is when they directly inherited it from a common ancestor.
 
@jalf Wusses. Works fine in my editor, with any layout that can do Latin.
 
even then, it's often not quite the same.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes How do you do it?
 
Nov 8 '11 at 2:41, by R. Martinho Fernandes
I think :abbr lambda λ would work in vim.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes If the robot considers it easy, it's clearly impractical for normal people. I rest my case. :p
4
 
7:23 PM
Sure, but let's have a look at functions with a C-style syntax. Pick one with lambdas, and you'll most likely have them written differently.
 
so what?
 
@E_net4 Of course they have different syntaxes, why wouldn't they?
 
every language that took functions from C has it's own function grammar too.
 
@E_net4 sure, because they didn't inherit the lambda syntax from C :)
 
you don't see Java with typename Base::value_type var;.
 
7:24 PM
Different languages have different syntaxes. hth
I know it sounds crazy, but just accept it.
 
It's not that I'm quite bothered with that, mind you.
 
hmm
 
What would be this "unified syntax" that you want?
 
LLVM IR
I wonder if I actually could re-use my existing name lookup implementation without too much hassle.
 
Nobody else wonders that.
 
7:26 PM
yes, but nobody cares about other people when there's me to care about
 
s/ when there's me to care about//
 
C++ lambda syntax is pretty sane for what it is
 
C++ lambdas have to support way more semantics than .NET lambdas so it's no surprise that they are more complex in terms of syntax.
 
I don't think the syntax is that bad.
 
a "short form" for quick lambdas would not have gone amiss though, IYAM.
 
7:30 PM
@Puppy I don't like it.
(FWIW, my answer would not change if your answer did)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes What precisely don't you like?
 
I can't think in terms of values/references/pointers anymore.
 
The only thing that would be better would be short form syntax
like [](x, y) { } -> [](auto&& x, auto&& y) { }
 
in Wide I will probably support C# style lambdas for simple lambdas, and then Lua-style functions for those that need more complex semantics.
 
I only have values/objects in the functional sense.
 
7:31 PM
@Rapptz The main problem with that is that nobody can decide if x or y should be refs or values.
 
@Puppy Out of interest, are you trying to design a language that does and is everything to everyone, or are there any features or ideas that are out of scope or that you actually want to exclude?
 
@jalf Yes, I am excluding quite a few features right now.
 
@tuk we are not here to play a guessing game. This question is off topic as it does not provide a clear problem; what you have tried to solve it, and most importantly the code affected. — Mgetz 8 secs ago
 
my next "milestone" could be roughly expressed as "Everything C++ can do, or better".
and I've said no to pretty much everything else for the time being
 
@Mgetz Oh dammit, you don't have 3k yet. :(
 
7:37 PM
@Mysticial working on it
 
"everything C++ can do" sounds a lot like "trying to be everything to everyone" ;)
 
nah
 
I've always wondered, have you ever tried anything functional @Puppy?
 
simple example: concepts/type classes are definitely on the back burner right now.
 
If so what are your thoughts about it?
 
7:38 PM
and lots of people have suggested that I cut features like overloading which I will definitely not.
I have done a few functional things.
 
Xeo
@Puppy Hey now - I only bitched about how you define the type of something!
 
also about the lambda syntax.
 
0
Q: Is there an IDE for C++ that doesn't generate code?

JohnIs there an IDE for C++ that doesn't generate code, while still having a debugger and intelligent code completion?

 
or maybe that was someone else :P
I find that functional can be useful for implementing particular functions but I didn't find it that great when trying to build entire systems.
and furthermore
 
Xeo
Well, I bitched about using function for lambdas, true
 
7:40 PM
fun > function.
 
sometimes it feels like I'm the only one in the world, but I like C++, at least in concept.
functional languages feel kinda ... preachy.
 
Xeo
What
I always say I like C++
vOv
 
liking functional <-> liking C++
 
I don't think anyone here really hates C++. Except maybe Cat but he hates everything.
Just annoyed a little with some parts of it.
 
you MUST immutable everything and you MUST purity everything
 
7:41 PM
...
 
maybe that's just a problem with the people who advocate them, though.
 
With (<->) = it's orthogonal
 
In a purely functional environment, immutability is the only way. Sure thing.
 
well, I like mutability.
 
@Puppy That’s purely functional (duh).
 
7:41 PM
I like mutating shit whenever I want to.
 
But I personally find the paradigm useful even in languages like C++.
 
You mutate shit in functional languages. Just in an immutable way.
 
also, it doesn't help that Haskell's syntax looks like someone vomited on their keyboard
even C++'s is better.
2
 
When I think functional, I think Lisp before Haskell. :P
But yeah, Lisp doesn't have the best syntax either.
 
@Puppy So funny.
 
7:43 PM
I think you are mistaking Haskell for another language and/or have never seen snippets of it?
 
people post Haskell here all the time
 
They also post other languages.
 
Don't go by what I post.
I'm the join (***) dude.
 
user1804599
@Puppy lol Wide author
 
Or you intended another word than ‘syntax’. E.g. the Haskell syntax defines how operators work, but it does not specify how most operators look like/what they do.
 
7:44 PM
no I definitely did not.
 
Of all the things you can think of Haskell, I think the type system and the syntax are the only one that you simply cannot attack.
 
Is that the royal "we" ? ...sometime diagnostic/engineering is a kind of educated guessing game, its up to you to asking leading questions of the problem, its not every case you will have access to the source code, yet an answer will still be expected, if my question is too difficult for you then move on to another! — tuk 3 mins ago
 
even C++ does not have to look at the casing of identifiers to make the syntax work.
 
aaaand flagged that shit as trolling
 
@Puppy It’s not case-insensitive either.
 
7:45 PM
@Puppy Wow. Clearly vomit.
 
So you may have the luxury of picking between struct foo { … or struct Foo { …, but once you’ve picked one you have to be consistent.
 
user1804599
@Jefffrey If only those two were more important than the ecosystem.
 
ikr
 
@LucDanton I didn't argue that it is case insensitive. I'm merely pointing out that you cannot change the casing of a Haskell identifier without semantic implications.
 
inb4 interoperability with Win API
 
7:46 PM
stupid macros
 
@Puppy No matter the language I never ‘transform’ a function into data or the other way around. What kind of transformation would that be? This is a serious inquiry.
 
It renders the whole thing unusable for any practical purposes.
 
I don't want to transform a function into data, I just want to change the name to have whatever casing I decide is best.
 
user1804599
The best casing is the consistent one.
2
 
Right, that’s when you can pick. As I’ve said. I suppose it’s true you can pick again and again.
 
7:48 PM
well, correct me if I'm wrong, but all types in Haskell have to start with upper cases, and all functions with a lower case.
 
A type can be lowercase.
 
Yes. You never pick. The decision to change never arises.
 
user1804599
And enforcing it is good, just like with file structure.
 
@LucDanton And that's a very important feature that one cannot possibly live without.
 
@Puppy mutants gotta mutate!
 
7:49 PM
In func :: a -> a, a is a type
 
user1804599
@Puppy nope.
 
@LucDanton Which is bad, because I want to give my functions upper case names.
 
Hence there is no semantic implication because there is no choice to be made. That’s the one point I had a beef with.
Feel free to gripe about the lack of choice, sure. There are ML-like languages (and thus syntaces) without that quirk btw.
 
user1804599
Not all function names in Haskell start with a lowercase letter, for example _foo.
 
7:49 PM
well, I can make that choice to make the replacement with a text editor.
it's just that if I do it, the program breaks for no good reason at all.
 
I always find it funny that that's the one thing he always picks to pick on.
"OMG my naming style!"
 
eh
 
@Puppy You can’t break anything.
 
it's symptomatic.
 
I assure you.
 
7:50 PM
There's a reason.
 
user1804599
Vim: Caught deadly signal SEGV
Vim: Finished.
 
user1804599
Great.
 
and what it's symptomatic of is that it's my program and if the language designer wants to choose for me things that I should decide for myself, then he can go fuck himself.
 
I'm not interested in finding out what other choices I might want to make that he made for me because he was sure he knew better.
 
7:51 PM
So it's just some kind of syntax-oriented teenage rebellion.
 
It's so that in function types, lowercase letter means "any type", eg. func :: a -> Type, a is any type, Type is a concrete type.
 
(Eh, I suppose there is the whole exported AlgDT constructor/smart constructor/exported pattern business. I won’t fit that into this margin.)
 
user1804599
@Jefffrey Can be solved in different ways.
 
why does this warning happen? :(
 
user1804599
7:51 PM
But this one is just convenient.
 
swiftly changes the topic
 
well, it's my program, so I make the choices.
it's not an unreasonable thing to want to build your program.
 
if the language designer wants to make it he can start issuing pull requests.
 
@Rapptz Ellipses can’t be ‘empty’.
 
7:52 PM
ellipses suck then
 
@Puppy It is an unreasonable thing to dismiss the whole thing because you can't use uppercase letters in some points.
 
hm
 
@rightføld Not so beautifully.
 
user1804599
@Jefffrey Greek instead of latin!
 
lol
 
7:53 PM
tl;dr I really suggest you should question yourself if you are dissatisfied with Haskell syntax—the ML-like languages are really minimal in that respect
 
At least my arguments about the syntax were fine
long ago
 
user1804599
tl;dr puppy is still bad at everything
 
Or at least bring up a real wart, like the use of significant whitespace (which Python has shown is possibly never going to be uncontroversial)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes It's not about the uppercase letters; it's about whether or not learning Haskell will be worth the time for me, and it's a pretty strong indication that we don't think along the same lines if they want to enforce their rules on something that should very clearly be my own choice.
 
@Puppy It's not a strong indication of anything.
 
user1804599
7:54 PM
It should not be your own choice.
 
It's a minor syntax detail.
 
@Puppy Is that based on personal experience or something that you think inherently makes functional programming terrible for "entire systems"?
 
That’s a large teacup.
 
user1804599
It should be enforced, just like indentation, brace placement and file structure.
 
@Jefffrey It's because they use lowercase for functions, duh.
 
7:55 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes A minor syntax detail which is apparently so tremendously important that the language must enforce dumb rules about it.
 
All languages enforce their own syntax.
 
or to put it another way; if the language enforces dumb rules about such trivial things, why should I have a reasonable expectation that they don't enforce even more dumb things about more important things?
 
It's like if I said that I won't try C++ because it doesn't allow ! or ? in function names.
 
Because you don't judge a book by the first letter of its title.
And FWIW, it is a rule that has function. It's not just for its own sake.
 
aaah back home
 
7:57 PM
dat pun
 
yes- a function of crutching a bad grammar, just like typename.
 
waits for it
 
wait is puppy trashtalking haskell again
 
my fault
 
the difference is that typename only has to be applied in that specific scenario, which I mostly don't encounter.
instead of everywhere for all time.
 
7:58 PM
Go on and explain why it is a crutch like typename.
 
Bartek Banachewicz has shown Puppy The Door.
 
@BartekBanachewicz why
 
user1804599
@Jefffrey It doesn't? C++ sucks!
 
he is just expressing his own opinions
 
well, their grammar should be able to tell type variables and concrete types apart without needing to inspect the identifier.
 
7:59 PM
Wait what.
How does your grammar do that?
 
Nov 6 at 13:31, by Bartek Banachewicz
@Puppy right I forgot your opinions are invalid.
 
... if telling them apart is even necessary.
 

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