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06:00 - 15:0015:00 - 22:00

6:55 AM
@KendallFrey Cool, I'll check it out. What are the .system-message-container btw?
 
7:29 AM
hi everyone, was just playing with byte[] and after a simple code i have realised that a byte array of size 7 like:
byte[] data = new byte[7];
it take 31 bytes in Memory from where that extra 24 bytes comes from ????
 
@RoyaanKhan How do you even get to these numbers
 
from windbg analysis tools by taking dump from task manager of application
@RoelvanUden
 
Seriously, again, stop drawing conclusions from random dumps like that. We have a whole bunch of features that do work for us in .NET, among which the biggest is the garbage collector (which allocates and releases memory as it sees fit). But you're on track about one thing; an allocation of a class or array requires more than just that array. It's tracked by the GC, it has its type registered, and in the case of array, its length as well. But stop drawing conclusions from dumps.
And start reading instead.
 
var data = GC.GetTotalMemory(true);
var a = new byte[4];
var result = GC.GetTotalMemory(true) - data;
a = null;
data = GC.GetTotalMemory(true);
a = new byte[0];
var result2 = GC.GetTotalMemory(true) - data;
Console.WriteLine("{0} {1}",result, result2);//prints 16 12
so there is 12 extra bytes
 
@RoelvanUden yes you are right about that extra allocation of 24 bytes as header for new class instance, and i have rad about it but i didn't know that for value type like byte it also take extra 24 bytes
 
7:42 AM
>All reference types carry two additional word fields. The type reference and a SyncBlock index field, which among other things is used to implement locks in the CLR. So the type overhead on reference types is 8 bytes on 32 bit. On top of that the array itself also stores the length which is another 4 bytes. This brings the total overhead to 12 bytes.
 
@RoyaanKhan byte[] is a reference type.
 
@RoelvanUden here is the link which i have rad about :
https://www.simple-talk.com/dotnet/.net-framework/object-overhead-the-hidden-.net-memory--allocation-cost/
PS: i have 64 bit system
 
well so 16 bytes for reference and 8 for length?
 
yes
 
Anyone here also familiar with asp.net?
Merry Friday!
 
7:49 AM
@MikeM. Of course ;-)
 
Great because none at the asp.net chat is available or helping xD
 
The C# knows everything C# related! :-P
 
@RoelvanUden Can I link you to the question in the asp.net room or should I just C+P ? XD
 
C+P please. :-)
 
I am trying to pass values between 2 pages I tried to use cookies but it was a no go on my end
Set cookie:
HttpCookie cookie = new HttpCookie("VraagOutput");
cookie.Value = "Uw vraag is verzonden!";
Response.Cookies.Add(cookie);
Response.Redirect("VraagHandler.aspx");
.
.
read cookie on VraagHandler.aspx:
if (Request.Cookies["VraagOutput"] != null)
{
output = Request.Cookies["VraagOutput"].Value;
}
.
.
The set cookie is upon send email is clicked.
The read cookie is on the vraaghandler page load
 
7:53 AM
have you found related Set-Cookie in response header?
 
Now in normal english? XD
 
@MikeM. Can you confirm that the cookie is actually set in your developer tools? I suspect it isn't, because you didn't provide a Path variable and WebKit-based browsers (Chrome, Safari, Opera) ignore cookie set + redirect when it has an invalid path. It's a bug
 
I don't really like ASP.NET xD it's not my thingy :P but it's a must to do it :(
therefor the page is getting loaded upon debug. while it only loads index.aspx
I use Chrome xD
So I should set a path...
 
Probably, yeah. cookie.Path = "/"; should do.
 
and what would "/" act like?
 
7:56 AM
(Side-note; Writing Dutch in code is ugly)
 
It's for a dutch project for college <= not my opinion xD
I didn't set the rules xD
 
It's the path where the cookie should appear. If you have an URL http://mydomain/MyController and set a cookie, the path is /MyController, meaning that if you navigate to /SomethingAwesome it's a different path and the cookie is not sent.
Path / effectively means, "every path on this domain"
 
okay well it's only for /VraagHandler :)
 
Yeah but like I said, a HTTP redirect + cookie set = bugged in WebKit
If you don't give a path.
 
:)
Thanks will try :)
 
7:59 AM
31
Q: Safari doesn't set Cookie but IE / FF does

GomezI found a strange cookie problem on safari. If you surf to http://2much.ch you can enter with FF/IE and surf inside the site. But if you use safari, you can enter only once; you can't surf inside the site. I found that Safari doesn't set the entered cookie, but FF/IE does. What is wrong here?

@MikeM. Read that. That's the situation you probably have.
 
Hmm
*cookie.Path = "VraagHandler.aspx";*
Maybe :) but then with chrome :P
 
Chrome == WebKit FYI
Safari, Chrome and Opera are all the same nowadays.
@MikeM. That's not a good path at all. Won't be sent appropriately.
Use /, don't be inventive here.
 
allright but why would I send it over the whole domain if it's only getting called once at vraaghandler?
already set to / tho
 
Well you can until someone in your team wants to use it elsewhere and boom!
 
I am a loner in this project ^^
so sad xD
 
8:03 AM
At least that enables you to work according to your own pace...
 
Indeed but the only thing is, I have 2 weeks left to finnish 3-4 projects
 
Let that be a lesson to start sooner, or work harder. :-P
 
including 2 guides
1) PHP installation on IIS
2) MS Project 2010
 
Usually you have waaaaaaayyyy enough time.
 
@RoelvanUden haha not if your college is called zoomvliet ^^
if you create stuff they dislike then they be like: NO! REDO IT!
 
8:05 AM
Wow. Is that a programming MBO or did you pick a programming optional?
 
Well it's a MBO with multiple different kinds of shizzle
I picked ICT which contains out of Programming and that other white side thingy...
I like programming so ye it's basicly a mixed MBO with mixed stuff but specialisation into all of these mixed thingies appart.
You can even do sport shizzle... xD
Johan Cruijff College is right next to ours on the same ground xD
 
Ahh. Was wondering if you're one of the students in the new "programmer" MBO educations, but it sounds like you did the same thing as me: IT management and administrator (with a snuff of programming on top). :-P
 
Neh we don't get admin shizzle
 
So.. it is basically just programming? Le confused
 
basicly if you choosen it ye xD
We get the regular classes:
Math
Algebra
Dutch
English

-- maybe forgot something
 
8:10 AM
Yeah but that's almost mandatory under Dutch law so it makes sense.
 
then we get in programming:
ASL
PHP
ASP.NET
C# [winforms & wpf]
Development
Oracle
Webserver [iis *blur*]
I might forgot some stuff
and then we get some additional thingies related to hardware and networking:
Datacom Practical and Theori
 
@MikeM. ASL? Oracle?
 
Hi mike, I do Mbo to
 
Oracle == SQL & Ansii
ASL == Application Services Library
 
I do ICT application and media development. and u?
 
8:12 AM
Shouldn't that be named Data Modelling and Database Design? Oracle is so... vendor lock-in.
 
@RoelvanUden Data moddeling and design is pretty much plain...
We only focus on Oracle SQL blablabla shizzle
that's why it's called oracle
 
Well.. at least HBO makes sense then. MBO is still trying to get there then. :D
 
@RoelvanUden xD
 
(Honestly; both my MBO educations were an incoherent mess, HBO wasn't)
 
We can choose later on if you choosen IT -> Programming
Then you can make a choice later on within:
- Software
- Web
- Game
You must pick out 2/3
I am going to take Software and Web
 
8:15 AM
Oh dear lord, why do I suspect 80% of the people goes for game.
 
Well wrong
Not alot of people will go for it at my class
that's why they say tho'
basicly because we hate flash to begin with xD
 
same I need to choose in start year 3 of 4 years total I can only choose 1.
 
Woah, surprising. Oh, Flash? That's "Game"? Just.. no. That's just wrong.
 
I know
 
@ruben450 Don't ever choose game :3
 
8:17 AM
haha
 
I think it's flash & java & c#
 
yea I learn c# in game style
 
flash for IOS
JAVA for IDK
C# for windows
 
you guys use visual studio
?
 
ye
 
8:18 AM
I got a realy big problem
 
We have dreamspark accounts :)
 
@MikeM. And here I was thinking Flash didn't even run on iOS :-3
 
me to
Yesterday my project runs fine. but today I can't even start it
 
@RoelvanUden Flash => AIR for IOS
@ruben450 That's fucked up xD
 
I get refrence errors because windows update something this night.
 
8:19 AM
I had that once
 
look through your references
 
look the link
yea I know
 
To many letters XD
 
but it happend just hours ago so people are still figuring out
Microsoft just released a new security update to be automatically applied to machines configured to use Microsoft Update.
Unfortunately, some ASP.NET MVC 3 and 4 VS projects can no longer build after the update is applied.
that is the problem in short
 
8:21 AM
Hate on Windows Updates
someone commented with this:
17
A: After Windows update "The type or namespace name 'Html' does not exist in the namespace 'System.Web.Mvc'"

George MauerHoly crap, thanks to @Nevada-Williford for the hint. Going in and setting my System.Mvc.Web reference to <Private>True</Private> (Copy Local = True) fixed it. Note, that before the update everything was working, after the update I had to modify my csproj to get it working again. Working theory o...

have you checked it?
Now I get this:
 
and gues what I got an ASP.NET MVC 3
 
An exception of type 'System.Web.HttpRequestValidationException' occurred in System.Web.dll but was not handled in user code

Additional information: Een potentieel gevaarlijke waarde Request.Cookies is gedetecteerd vanuit de client (VraagOutput="...verzonden!<br /><br />Reden:<b...").
Hooray! -.-
 
@ruben450 Delete the references and get them from NuGet ;-)
 
@ruben450 We aren't allowed to use MVC yet xD
 
@MikeM. Njahahahaha, time to turn off validation in web.config then.
 
8:22 AM
@MikeM. me neither
but i am on "stage"
there I need to work with asp.net
@MikeM. thanks for the link I will check it out.
 
I can't find a trainnee allowed company on my needs
 
@MikeM. is this your first year of the opleiding(wat is het engelse woord voor dat?)
 
@ruben450 training, or education to reference the entire thing
(education makes most sense in English though IMHO)
 
@RoelvanUden thanks :P
@MikeM. thanks for the link it solve some errors :D
 
@ruben450 Your Welcome :)
 
8:29 AM
now I have one error left. Error 1 The type or namespace name 'GlobalFilterCollection' could not be found (are you missing a using directive or an assembly reference?)
It is in the Global.asax.cs file
 
Check your namespace if it equals with the others
 
yes it is
 
hmmm
now I get this:
.
.
.
Error:
An exception of type 'System.Web.HttpRequestValidationException' occurred in System.Web.dll but was not handled in user code

Additional information: Een potentieel gevaarlijke waarde Request.Cookies is gedetecteerd vanuit de client (VraagOutput="...verzonden!<br /><br />Reden:<b...").
.
.
Set:
HttpCookie cookie = new HttpCookie("VraagOutput");
cookie.Values.Add("output", "Uw vraag is verzonden!");
cookie.Path = "/";
Response.Cookies.Add(cookie);
Response.Redirect("VraagHandler.aspx");
 
yup got on that aswell xD
<br /> is not allowed :P
(html elements isn't) XD
so I changed it to {br /} and it gets replaced to <br />
 
If you know what you're doing, you can just disable the validation.
e.g. in ASP.NET MVC with Razor, all values you print are encoded by default therefore making XSS moot.
 
I need to use ASP.net web forms (with master page)
 
Your college is a little behind the times. Or well, a lot. :-)
 
@RoelvanUden ssshhh xD We aren't allowed to get in MVC yet
we are going to start into that next period
I am just in 2.1 xD
 
9:00 AM
Oh, yay. Faith restored in our education system.
 
lol
 
9:24 AM
@MikeM. LOL GET OUT
 
@Sippy It's part of his education, the "How your life will suck"-bit. :-P
 
@Sippy Don't blame me..
 
@MikeM. @RoelvanUden I got everything fixed. project is working again. :D so happy
@MikeM. thanks for the helpfull links :D:D:D:D
 
@ruben450 No Problem xD
 
hi can anyone give me good reference to single page application in angular js
 
9:32 AM
The first rule of web forms club is that we don't talk about web forms club
19 hours ago, by MrDoom
╔═════════════════ ೋღ☃ღೋ ════════════════╗
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Repost this if ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ ~ ~ ~ you are a beautiful strong T4 template ~ ~ ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ who don’t need no man ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
╚═════════════════ ೋღ☃ღೋ ════════════════╝
 
@Sippy So...?? xD
 
Roflmao what the fuck
@MikeM. You will quickly learn webforms is a dirty word round here.
Because it is a pile of shit that should be buried.
 
I already learned ASP.NET and XML & XAML is annoying
 
@dazzlingkumar angularjs.org
 
@RoelvanUden That site isn't reeeaaallly an SPA
It's a modular site composed of SPAs
 
9:41 AM
Wellllllll thank you for that sippy!
 
JUST FOR PEDANTICNESS
 
(face palm)
 
u welcome bro
Where's shaun
I wanna bully someone
 
@Shaun get over here
 
@Shaun yeah you fucknugget
 
9:43 AM
@Sippy At least use a polite language form, and even more so when bullying.
 
@RoelvanUden nebar
 
@Sippy Bully me, I ignore you anyways xD
 
!!burn
 
God his face is annoying
Didn't he get hurt or something recently?
I went on twitter for like 10 seconds the other day and saw something like #getwellashton
trending
I hope he dies.
 
9:48 AM
I have no idea.
 
@MikeM. No fun bullying you then.
Shaun likes it.
I guess having an IQ of at least 100 isn't an entry requirement for D&C police ..
 
10:17 AM
Just received a story about JOINS
 
user862319
dat ashton
 
@RoelvanUden hi dude
@RoelvanUden i have a little confussion about Heap organization by CLR, when a process starts CLR create/reserve Heap for your process and divide it into Gen0,1,2... ???
 
@RoyaanKhan yes.
 
So my question is do CLR create multiple Heaps like Heap0,1,2... for your process or just one Heap ???
 
@Bob wotwot
 
10:34 AM
@Sippy
 
user862319
10:45 AM
I have started this friday way too early for my own good.
 
@Bob I tend not to start working till about 3, then I go home.
Especially on fridays.
 
user862319
lol
 
user862319
that looks cool.
 
Lol that's like that Aliens vs Humans game
Cool idea
Oooo they made super monday night combat!
I loved that game
 
user862319
10:56 AM
yeah
 
user862319
you get free in-game thingies for SMNC if you get their $90 whatever
 
@Bob I don't play it anymore, it's boring if you don't have a dedicated team
I hate pubs.
 
11:19 AM
@OliverSalzburg not sure, it's nothing to do with tab complete
 
@KendallFrey Yeah, I just figured you added it, because I don't have anything for that class
 
ok, let me see if I can find it
I think it might be the 1 hour later... text
 
HAPPY FRIDAY BITCHES
6
 
FUCK YEAH
 
11:25 AM
Hey guys
I want to override save changes and insert two values on every call, how can I do this?

public override int SaveChanges(int off_code, int comp_code)
{
//code here to save off_code, comp_code in the particular table this method was called for
return base.SaveChanges();
}
if anyone can guide me in the right direction, that would be great
 
11:54 AM
I didn't ask to be pinged
 
Sorry for that, but long ago I asked a question here and you answered it so that's why I pinged you, If you can just guide me in the right direction ?
 
@SyedFarjadZiaZaidi How on earth do you have 1500 rep if you don't know how to use Google?
 
ok, what are you trying to do?
 
I am trying to override SaveChanges so that whenever it is called I can save two fields into that particular table in which changes were made before calling `SaveChanges.
public override int SaveChanges(int off_code, int comp_code)
{
//code here to save off_code, comp_code in the particular table that was modifed before calling this method
return base.SaveChanges();
}
 
That's what it looks like your code does
 
11:58 AM
@Sippy Questions give rep too...
 
but you're missing a huge part of your question
 
@RoelvanUden That's true lol. Was it you who showed me that guy who asked like 200 garbage questions and had no answers whatsoever?
 
What is that? I do not know how to add those two values:

UtilitiesEntities context = new UtilitiesEntities();
Student stdnt = new Student();
student.Name = "xyz";
context.Add(student);
context.SaveChanges();
context.Dispose();
How can I get this entities properties while overriding `SaveChanges` ? like

public override int SaveChanges(int off_code, int comp_code)
{
entity.off_code = off_code;
entity.comp_code = comp_code;
// now the saved data contains what user entered and it automatically adds comp_code and off_code on every call on SaveChanges
 
@Sippy Could have been me, yes. Not sure :-)
@SyedFarjadZiaZaidi Even your question doesn't make sense. You're incoherent. You're showing us some sample of setting up a context (in a silly way) and doing an operation on it, then calling SaveChanges without arguments. Suddenly and magical you HAVE values in an override that comes from god-knows-where (does it even compile?) and ask us how to do ... what exactly?
 
Can you even add parameters to an overridden method?
I thought they had to have the same signature
 
12:09 PM
That's exactly my point. :-)
 
@RoelvanUden that's what I want to know, How can I get those ? that code definitely does not compile, that was just to show you what do I want, I just want to save two values in any tables that were modified before calling SaveChanges, After searching on Google I found out that I will have to override SaveChanges but I can not understand how to make it work
 
Well.. the way round that is to make your own method ...
@SyedFarjadZiaZaidi That would be the wrong answer...
 
@Sippy what would be the wrong answer?
 
Overriding savechanges
If you wanna add params
is the wrong answer.
 
I do not want to add parameters
 
12:20 PM
Do you know what parameters are?
21 mins ago, by Syed Farjad Zia Zaidi
public override int SaveChanges(int off_code, int comp_code)
{
//code here to save off_code, comp_code in the particular table that was modifed before calling this method
return base.SaveChanges();
}
 
I want to save two more values on every SaveChange to the table that was modified
so that code was just to show the kind of thing i wanted to get at, it was not working code
 
Right so your problem is what
If you don't need params
Override SaveChanges and add your two values which will need to be class variables that you modify in whatever methods
Or just make your own method with params which calls savechanges after you do shit.
 
12:42 PM
Urgh. I'm a numpty.
"Can you integrate with this async web service?" "Sure! Give me a minute..."
Ended up implementing an client that creates an asyncronous request to create an asynchronous job, then was confused as to why it was returning immediately with no data.
Read the docs, service was actually properly asynchronous and needed to be supplied with the callback endpoint, which I hadn't implemented.
"OK... you know I said 'give me a few minutes'? I meant give me a few hours."
 
So.. the service needs to call the callee? :-/
 
yeah :D
ENTERPRISEY
 
That's just extremely silly.
 
That's Oracle for you.
 
12:49 PM
Did I say Oracle? I meant 'Orrible.
 
do not google orrible
2
 
:-]
 
c# data structure with low memory consumption i.e i can compromise on performance but not memory ???
 
Is that supposed to be a question?
If so, I suggest you be more specific
 
@KendallFrey LOL
 
user1804599
12:54 PM
@RoyaanKhan wat
 
i am using Hashtable and for every key i have another hasthable as value but it consume more memory than i was expecting, i want to use some other data structure
 
user1804599
Be extremely specific.
 
Wow, really, a HashSet using a significant amount of memory? What a surprise!
 
@RoelvanUden ????
 
@RoyaanKhan You really don't know how a HashSet even works, do you?
@RoyaanKhan You're just using it never paying attention to data structures, eh?
 
user1804599
12:57 PM
He never said he uses HashSet.
 
Apparently I spend too much time watching youtube videos
I just like to listen to people talking :/
 
user1804599
Just "Hashtable," whatever that may be.
 
Helps me work
 
@rightføld .NET version of non-generic HashSet ;-)
Pretty much ancient to boot.
 
@rightføld What do you mean "whatever that may be"
 
user1804599
1:00 PM
lol spelling fail
 
user1804599
Ah, because Java also has the spelling fail.
 
@RoelvanUden Hashtable : Represents a collection of key/value pairs that are organized based on the hash code of the key.
Each element is a key/value pair stored in a DictionaryEntry object. A key cannot be null, but a value can be. i think its enough for you that i know at least something about Hashtable :/
 
user1804599
Use Dictionary, not non-generic Hashtable crap.
 
@RoyaanKhan in what context are you using these? Game dev?
 
@RoyaanKhan So if you know how it works, you can probably come up with the reason why it takes a lot more memory than the number of items you put in, right?
 
user1804599
1:01 PM
It will at least not box values of value types.
 
+1 for using Dictionary. Makes sense if you have a primitive key.
 
Hi all
Who can help me with a ObservableCollection filtering question?
@RoelvanUden Yoo, you here?
 
@FadeD No need to ping me, just ask your question.\
 
haha lolz :p
okay
Here it comes lol....
I got this collection "ObservableCollection<Searches>" the class Searches contains 2 properties "Value, DatumTijd" What I need is the last 5 searches selected by DatumTijd, but the value must be distinct
 
"The amount of dutchies using dutch properties and text is too damn high!"
 
1:06 PM
lolz :p
My boss made me do that -_-
Below an XML with the values. I need to filter out the duplicate values like "clip" and then select the last 5 records sorted by DatumTijd
<ZoekOpdracht Datum="17-10-2014 11:19:03">clip</ZoekOpdracht>
<ZoekOpdracht Datum="17-10-2014 11:48:26">Test</ZoekOpdracht>
<ZoekOpdracht Datum="17-10-2014 11:57:10">clip</ZoekOpdracht>
<ZoekOpdracht Datum="17-10-2014 11:58:18">clip</ZoekOpdracht>
<ZoekOpdracht Datum="17-10-2014 12:27:09">jouke</ZoekOpdracht>
<ZoekOpdracht Datum="17-10-2014 13:35:29">Dit </ZoekOpdracht>
 
@FadeD Just use a DistinctBy, OrderByDescending and Take.
 
Hmm.. Mind showing how?
This is what I got
    public static ObservableCollection<string> FSearches
    {
        get { return new ObservableCollection<string>(_Searches.Select(o => o.Value).Distinct()); }
    }
but then it's only a string and the DatumTijd usable anymore
 
a.DistinctBy(x => x.Value).OrderByDescending(x=>x.Date).Take(5)
 
Cannot resolve "DistinctBy"
 
233
Q: Linq Distinct on a particular Property

Patrick DesjardinsI am playing with Linq to learn about it but I can't figure out how to Distinct when I do not have a simple list (a simple list of integer is pretty easy to do, this is not the question). What if want to distinct a list of Object on ONE or MORE Properties of the object? Example: If an object is ...

 
1:18 PM
Thanks m8! It works! :D You saved the day woohoo
<------ RaZer, not sure if you remember :p
 
Oh hi :-D. Why the new name? :-/
 
Damnit. Now I've got Take Five in my head.
mm. Jazz...
 
1:34 PM
@KendallFrey you son of a bitch :p
 
So, When I'm pulling in the method name from a deligate, it returns something like:
Namespace.Class.MethodName, but I want it to return just MethodName without doing any sort of hacky string spliting. Ideas?
 
@RoelvanUden Because I like this name better :)
 
1:53 PM
@Steve :)
 
2:20 PM
OK here's a question for youse all.
I have a remote web service that returns object[]
actually an array of object[]
row, column
there is no schema, by reflection I can see that the cell data is either XmlNode[] or object[]
I can cast and parse the XmlNodes, but I can't do shit with object[].
Can I? Is there any way for me to see the actual content of these untyped data?
 
You must be able to or what would be the point of a service that returns an array of object[]?
 
No idea.
Enterprisey?
 
Is that a hipster programmer term :D
 
Awww man I love that code.
public class FizzBuzzOutputGenerationContextVisitor implements
		OutputGenerationContextVisitor {

	@Override
	public void visit(OutputGenerationContext context, int nGenerationParameter) {
		if (context.getStrategy().isEvenlyDivisible(nGenerationParameter)) {
			context.getPrinter().printValue(new Integer(nGenerationParameter));
		}
	}

}
 
noooooo not javaaaa
 
2:27 PM
it's a work of art
 
work of fart
 
totally
 
I can fart better code than that
 
the purpose of that code isn't to be /good/
it's to be /correct/.
Each iteration, each Visitor implementation is called against the current context strategy's iterator. The visitor uses the Context's implementation of the StrategyFactory to discern whether the current integer is evenly divisible.
If so, it retrieves the correct printer implementation via the context's Printer factory...
aka
if (i % 2 == 0) print i;
 
Anyone know of some good books to learn Javascript / jQuery in a more practical approach. To build controls essentially?
 
that's a good resource for a modern patterns of pure JS
what do you mean by 'controls'? You mean with jQuery? Or roll-your-own?
 
If you know 100% of that, libraries like jQuery/Angular hold no secrets to you.
 
but you've still got to grok the frameworks, even if the code it's self makes sense
 
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