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6:00 PM
who can think of a language that supports casting that doesn't use the normal casting syntax ?
 
/me is drawing a blank here
 
yeah I got nothing either ...
I guess C++
but ugly
static_cast<Type>(expr)
or dynamic_cast or const_cast
 
that one doesn't count
 
yeah it's so ugly ... I regret typing it ...
 
6:09 PM
are you trying to come up with syntax ?
 
yeah, a limitation of the parser is that we don't appear to be able to (ever, inc. with ast branch) do
$string = (UString) fgets($handle);
I want it for that, but there's no good reason not to allow casting objects, everywhere else does ...
 
May 18 '11 at 20:48, by teresko
@KamilTomšík in perfect world you would cast an instance of Person as something that is instance of King
 
yep, it feels missing ...
cast<UString> fgets($handle)
does it look horrible to you ? (does to me) ...
 
yes it does
hell , I would actually do with something like $foo = fgets($handle) as UString; ... but "as" is already taken
 
oooh
that's good ...
very php
I think that's doable
 
6:18 PM
how would it interact with foreach ?
 
other places use as, traits and that ... I think it shift/reduce conflicts should be avoidable, but can't tell till I try ... so will try ..
 
good luck then
 
that's doable if you raise expected conflicts ... which we don't like to do ...
 
is ">>" a taken symbol ?
 
shift right operator yeah
 
6:26 PM
=/
there is always tilde ~ symobol, as in: $foo = fgets($handle) ~ UString; (but it sucks for readability)
 
yeah it's not as good as "as" ... ppl take ~ to mean "roughly" a lot of the time too ...
 
waaah… ~ is bitwise not and nothing else :o
 
raising conflicts doesn't work either ... and niki says we don't need object casts
that other languages have them because they have static typing
so the statement
Type var = (Type) other; needs casting to work ...
 
Is new UString(fgets($handle)) any problem?
 
he's right ... doesn't stop me wanting it though ...
it's cumbersome ... also if you forget this use case, I think there is a case for wanting to cast objects to different types, it can help with integration ...
fe
 
6:35 PM
I have wanted class casting for years .. so .. well .. you probably know where I would stand on this
then again, I am not a core-dev, I like the OOP code too much
 
<?php
class One {
    public function whatever() {

    }
}

interface Thing {
    public function whatever();
}

function inSomeClass(One $one) {
    return inAnotherClassFromADifferentLibrary((Thing) $one);
}

function inAnotherClassFromADifferentLibrary(Thing $thing) {

}
?>
if an object satisfies the interface, why not ?
 
So that Barðarbunga is erupting apparently youtube.com/watch?v=xoISDUAPNgc&feature=youtu.be
 
yeah , saw on twitter several hours ago
 
It's under 500m of ice so nothing to see yet.....but it could fark up a lot of Iceland/Europe
 
that's not how you spell "fuck"
 
6:40 PM
The eruption is closer to #Dyngjujokull than #Bardarbunga so we may need to retrain journalists in pronunciation
 
Anyone of you ever got any error like this? The "https://packagist.org/packages.json" file could not be downloaded: php_network_getaddresses: getaddrinfo failed: Temporary failure in name resolution searches on the web aren't clear on what this is :|
(Well, I can see the error, what I mean is: there's no clear way to fix it)
 
@MoshMage Somethings fucky with the internet today. Try using 8.8.8.8 as your DNS?
 
oh! it's really a dns problem. The box is new, I was starting to panic since I had just upgraded to php5.6 xD
my mind was like "Again? You managed to misconfigure this AGAIN?!" xD
 
@Danack In that case I'll try again tomorrow, or in a few hours, I don't have any hurry -- was just to entertain myself doing some crappy html x)
 
6:56 PM
Seriously Iceland:
Sort your shit out.
 
why is it that people keep on showing times of broadcast's start WITHOUT SPECIFYING THE FUCKING TIMEZONE !?!?"
 
'Merica?
 
there are at least 3 major timezones in USA
 
7:15 PM
@JoeWatkins oh, I see, I told you exactly the same thing as Nikita did in IRC ^^
 
7:31 PM
why did this happen to me ? oi61.tinypic.com/2hcexrt.jpg
 
give that man the keys to an army ...
@bwoebi well .. it's the only other way isn't it ?
 
@zeeks because you are using one of the shittiest anti-viruses
 
@JoeWatkins the only sensible one, yeah
@JoeWatkins not found.
 
@tereško since when is Kaspersky shit? it is expensive as hell
 
7:39 PM
@zeeks for something like 4 years now
 
@zeeks expensive ≠> good
 
@zeeks also, why the fuck are you using any of those "internet security" shits ?
 
@tereško my dad wanted that package. he bought 10 licenses for 2 years each.
 
well ... since you are probably the "IT guy" in your family, it's all your fail
and quite an epic one at that
 
isn't most spyware from porn sites ??
if you don't want to think about that again ... then install an os that isn't a target for 99% of all hostile activity ...
 
7:47 PM
@tereško ok then, i will tell him to change the antivirus, but next year. cause I have one year left subscription
 
maybe you should recommend better porn sites for your dad
or , better - recommend some good torrent sites
 
you serious? my dad does not watch porn
 
@zeeks kaspersky is now shit. I hate it now because it always "offers" me to register and there is no option to disable it or to say "by the hell, shut up, I don't want to register in your promos or anywhere else" .. so it pop-ups twice per day. Especially annoying if some fullscreen application is running (it minimizes all windows and shows that "offer" notification)
 
I logged into my online banking today, and there wasa message before I could do anything that I had to read, saying that a group of individuals are phoning people offering to solve their slow pc issues (obviously windows users), they then steal banking information and empty accounts ...
 
@zeeks then why does he need an active spyware protection ?
 
7:50 PM
I'm so glad I don't have to worry about any of that ...
seriously most spyware does come from porn sites ... of all the computers I ever had to look at, in the days I bothered with that kind of thing for money, it was down to questionable browser history ... if you're brave enough, take a look at history ... it has to come from somewhere ...
 
@tereško to protect the pc from viruses? internet security is not just against spyware but also against trojans and viruses in the pc.
 
@zeeks no, against troyans and viruses you use a standard antivirus
 
"Just buy a Mac"™
 
i belive you are wrong since my antivirus deletes all the troyans and viruses
 
what about ones it doesn't know about ?
 
7:53 PM
mac is not against troyans and viruses or spyware. the fact is that the share market of mac is bellow 7%
that is why
 
there is no 100% effective solution to the problem, other than removing the target ...
 
and people are not interested in attacking an OS with that low number of users
 
wait ...
 
so the number of viruses, troyans is a little
 
the kinds of systems it is beneficial to breach, are not windows ...
 
7:54 PM
context matters =]
 
they have no chance of attacking a banking network directly, so they trick stupid windows users into installing their shit ... it's always been like that ...
 
i know
i used to do stuff like that when i was 10-12 years old
but i gave up on that shit
 
I'm just pointing out it has nothing to do with market share ... unix systems hold the keys to everything, but there is no effective way in ... so they take an easy route and attack people connecting to secure systems with their terrible operating systems ...
get a different os
it's not like your dad will need photoshop or directx
my (elderly) mum took to fedora very well ... since chrome and firefox have the same icon ...
 
I don't use macs ... ever ...
5
> Architecturally, UNIX is built with a more robust permission structure that prevents unauthorized execution of software. While Microsoft Windows will try to run a program any way it can, even if a virus is redirecting things, UNIX will stop in its tracks when it detects an unauthorized redirection and limit any damage [source: Perrin].
even that page is telling you what to do :)
 
8:02 PM
i will buy a mac, maybe next week. anyway, i am going to have a shower. cya
 
you completely missed the point ... have a nice shower tho :D
 
8:33 PM
"Thinks about plan to buy a mac, suddenly needs a shower". TBH I like my mac, but not that much.
 
^you bastard :-p
 
@JoeWatkins Not actually true any more (or at least, doesn't need to be)
As with so many assertions that are made in OS wars, that's based on Win3-like architecture
Every Windows version that supports NTFS supports permissions on a filesystem level, just like *nix, in fact NTFS permission blocks could be better than *nix, the problem is that the default permission structures outside \windows are far too permissive
Don't get me wrong, Windows sucks in its own special way, but that argument just doesn't hold water
 
Morning yall
 
Ntfs? Good?.. Hm..if only In some.. Special sencw
 
It's a lot like the "mac uses \r line endings" bullshit that is still held true all over the internet, even though it refers to 20+yo facts
@AlmaDo Again, let me stress, I'm not saying it's better, but saying it doesn't support fs-level perms like *nix is just plain wrong
 
8:42 PM
IT'S THE YEAR OF LINUX ON THE DESKTOP!
 
Oh that.. Where did you saw such statement? (I mean that win doesn't support it)
 
Lord I hope not. Unless someone has created a good Linux desktop environment and not told me about it
43 mins ago, by Joe Watkins
> Architecturally, UNIX is built with a more robust permission structure that prevents unauthorized execution of software. While Microsoft Windows will try to run a program any way it can, even if a virus is redirecting things, UNIX will stop in its tracks when it detects an unauthorized redirection and limit any damage [source: Perrin].
 
@DaveRandom Neh it still sucks at that :D
 
Why not? I'm using Linux for my work desktop 7 years..
 
Which desktop env do you use?
 
8:44 PM
Yes. Hiya 2%!
Seriously as a desktop. Windows or GTFO
 
Actually Ubuntu's desktop is pretty nice. Shame there's literally nothing else good about Ubuntu :-P
 
I'm using Slackware. And.. Yep, I find it good
 
There is also the "communicate with the rest of the world and have sane software" part about linux
 
^ yes, this is why I am still desperately hoping that one day someone will create a DE I can actually get along with
@AlmaDo OSX clone. Stop lying to yourself :-P
 
?
I thought it's one of the oldest
 
8:49 PM
No idea, all I know is that when I use it (never tried it until ~2 years ago) it feels like I'm using OSX, which I do not like.
Jesus, the website has serifs, it must be an old project
 
Nothing common .. For me at least. And it's founded in 1992 if I recall
 
> 1374 days later…
lol
@AlmaDo Dunno, maybe it was just the way the guy had it set up
For the day-to-day, I am a Windows user. For general dev, I am a *nix & ~Darwin user. That's just me though. Your mileage may and probably will vary.
I'd actually happily be a Windows dev if the tool chain didn't suck balls
If someone offered me a job where I could work in C# and run on *nix I'd take it without question
 
Is c# so great?
 
9:06 PM
@AlmaDo It really is quite nice. Imagine Java, only good.
 
serialize doesn't appear to use the __get function for property retrieval. Does anyone know if that is the case?
 
Ran make as root. Got make: sapi/phpdbg/phpdbg_rinit_hook.lo: permission denied. Setting chmod of that file to 777. Works.
 
@DaveRandom Thanks. I hadn't considered that route. :)
 
Why do I even need to chmod that as root? :-(
 
9:13 PM
@seagoj if you think about it, serialize() and __get() are directly at odds with each other. __get() takes an arbitrary string and converts it to a property lookup, serialize() can't exactly pass every possible arbitrary string to __get()...
This is why Serializable and __sleep()/__wakeup() exist, to work around that exact problem - the recommended route would be Serializable (by me, anyway)
 
I had already defined a __sleep function that passed the right property names. Serialize was just complaining that the property didn't exist even though __get could figure it out.
 
oic
Well yeh, Serializable is definitely what you want then
 
Yeah, I think it's exactly what I'm looking for. thanks.
 
np :-)
 
ThW
Interfaces for the win :-)
 
9:30 PM
@ThW interface Object { function __get($k); function __set($k, $v); function __call($m, $a); } <-- job done. Next!
 
ThW
hehe
I raise your magic methods with a yield ;-)
 
To my great shame I have yet to fully grasp yield
I mean I get the basic generator, but @rdlowrey does some crazy shit with generators that I do not even pretend to understand
 
ThW
yield makes the current method into an iterator, defined the point you call yield as an item
the result is a full iterator,but if you traverse it it will stop at the yield an return an item
 
@DaveRandom I think it does, in my experience it does ... it doesn't matter what protections the operating system has built in if they are willing to install software from anywhere and give it permission to execute, they invariably are willing to install and do give it permission ... the fact that most software for unix's is managed by clued up package maintainers and distributed by organized repositories goes a long way to ensure the same cannot happen in unix, coupled with the fact there are
only a handful of viruses for unix and most of them are the product of research ...
makes it a non-issue in unix, it will always, always be an issue on windows ... forever ...
 
@ThW why are you here when everyone else is drinking?
 
ThW
9:41 PM
I am drinking, but I moved to Cologne, near my bed ;-)
Riding a bike drunk is not exactly safe, so I try to avoid it.
 
can't be @froscon this year. and no drinking :/
 
@JoeWatkins So... the real problem is that in the general case, Windows users are basically doing the *nix equivalent of running as root, all the time. This is because it makes life easy for the average user who does not understand how their computer works (i.e. the vast majority of Windows users). However, if you set up your permissions properly this simply is not a problem - you'll find that when you go into large corporate networks, every machine runs Win, and none of them have viruses
It is a case of education, not capability
Certainly, saying that one OS is fundamentally better than another on those ground does not hold water
 
you've never managed to run software on a work computer ??
they don't have viruses because their networks are locked down usually, not because you cannot run unauthorized software
the average corporate user knows no more about windows than your average user, they are the same person ...
 
@JoeWatkins Define "network is locked down"
 
they are on the intranet, or the intranet and a select few internet sites ... but users cannot go wherever they want
 
9:52 PM
The difference is (more or less) that by default Windows gives everything 0777 perms - it does not have to be that way, you can have incredibly granular local control if you learn how group policies and permission cascades work and use them properly
But yeh, stuff like UAC is basically just pissing on that particular bonfire
The only way to make it work like it should is to learn how it works. Properly.
 
or don't be a target ...
 
There's another OS I can think of that's like that, btw... ;-)
@JoeWatkins This is indeed a viscous and probably inescapable circle
 
you have to do almost nothing in unix to be afforded security ... UAC, group policies ... you want to explain that to an OAP, we were talking about an OAP ...
 
Doesn't stop me being confident in my Windows install though, which at the end of the day is all I really care about
@JoeWatkins Uh-huh. And you are going to explain how chmod works to that person are you? Because it is inevitable that they will need it at some point very soon.
 
not at all, my mum is a happy fedora user for years, still on 17 iirc ...
she has a little clue about it ... but not much, when she was a windows user if she were presented with a box stopping her from spying on other family members with facebook, she would click whatever made it go away, she wouldn't understand it if she read it ...
it's not that unix is better, it's not that she wouldn't do the same in unix but nobody is targeting it ... she's afforded security because she isn't a target not because she knows how it works ...
 
9:59 PM
@JoeWatkins yup, the "friendly" things that Win does are bullshit, no argument from me there
@JoeWatkins That has always sounded like a bad argument to me. The words "false", "security" and "sense" always spring to mind. It's not like the bad guys have signed up to an agreement not to target it or anything...
 
but for the moment, it's the way it is ...
 
I'm not trying to say Windows is better (it really, emphatically is not) but saying it is fundamentally less secure just is not true.
Really the only reason I continue using Win as a desktop is UX. If someone made a desktop env for linux that I could abide by, I would switch tomorrow.
There's probably an element of comfort with the things I know as well
But since I do know it, quite intimately, I have no problem with this
 
I think it is true, not soley because of it's programming but because of it's position, it's prominence .. facts can change, maybe one day it won't be true ... because the position of unix will have changed ... but it has been like that for so long I feel comfortable calling it a fact, an observable one ...
a modern kde can look like windows ...
I never liked that about it ...
don't particularly welcome modern gnome or kde, but since I spend all my time in a console, on websites, or in an editor ... I'm not so fussed ...
 
ThW
Well, I use a Surface Pro 3 and I just don't have the time to configure Linux on it to work the same.
 
the reasons I use it, and the reasons I would stick it on an OAP's machine are totally different ...
I got to use it before vm's were really a workable thing ... way way before ...
that really is quite a recent thing, vm's were painful right up until this i7, for the kinds of things I want a vm for anyway ...
 
10:07 PM
@JoeWatkins It's not about the look as long as things work how I expect them to with minimal messing about (which, I admit, is less and less true as the Win version number increases)
 
ThW
Just recognized, the one feature that kept me from using Linux on my Notebook is not available on the SP3 (by default)
 
@JoeWatkins There's a difference actually, I used to spend my time in all kinds of weird, rarely visited bits of the OS
 
I think I'm right in saying that there were no free compilers for ms either ... I could be wrong about that, but express wasn't a thing for damn sure ...
 
Not really any more
@ThW ?
 
ThW
Hybrid Standby, go to Standby, Hibernate after x minutes
 
10:10 PM
That would be a hw feature anyway, surely?
 
well ... bios ...
 
@JoeWatkins That's quite possibly true
 
ThW
Both actually, the OS needs to support it
 
well it'll surely be an acpi feature, so the os needs to know how to configure it, but the hardware just needs sleep I think ... I could be wrong and probably am ...
I haven't let a computer sleep in years ...
if I don't sleep properly, nor should it !!!
 
ThW
the SP3 has another level called 'Connected StandBy', it behaves like a tablet, keeps connections, triggers alarms, all that kind of stuff, but Hibernate is not available by default any more.
 
10:13 PM
@DaveRandom I don't remember having one, I remember having a vc98 (I think or 96 I forget) license for a year ... so I used windows for a while, and found vm's terrible and unix a much better place for me even when programming was still a thing I didn't tell anyone about ...
for the first time, a couple of days ago, my 9 year old girl said she wants to learn how to program, and I said it was hard and she'd have to work at it, and it would upset her when she got it wrong and she would get it wrong ... and she was still keen ...
anyone ever tried that with any success ??
I tried with the misses
my daughter has said before she wanted to learn but I just said "great, good for you", "I look forward to teaching you" ... or something of that nature because I couldn't imagine it ... think I can now ..
any ideas ?
 
@JoeWatkins I was chatting to a guy at phpnw last year who was involved with codeclub.org.uk, he was saying that basically with the ones who are interested its not a problem, they just keep coming back for more
 
@JoeWatkins rewards, I heard rewards are very benefical
 
I think we touched on this subject a while back and someone said they had experience but don't remember who it was ...
 
ThW
Well you could ask Rasmus ;-)
 
she's right in the middle of 9-11 ... "want to do what daddy does" comes out when she learns the name of daddy's job, pretty sure that's true for everyone ... but I think doable ...
I've seen tweets that his kids program actually yeah
no club on iow
wonder if I could stand to teach kids ...
hate the idea of teaching adults, we argue too much about everything ...
 
10:21 PM
@JoeWatkins just give her a laptop and put it on a wireless network that won't give her access to anything apart from python.org, and give her a csv file full of possible keys for the actual wireless network :-P
 
hehe
 
ThW
@DaveRandom You're evil
 
she's got a laptop ... have you seen scratch ?
no wait, that's not it I don't think ...
 
ThW
brb
 
no it is scratch ... it's installed on the rpi by default and I read a little about it before ... it seemed like a good way to turn it into the kinds of games she already plays online ...
 
10:24 PM
@ThW This is also a general intelligence test. The really smart ones will just go and find an ethernet cable... :-P
 
think I knew what a struct was before an ethernet card or cable ...
 
@JoeWatkins Are you already that old?
 
I come from telecoms, I'm still a lot more confident in my ability to design a network infrastructure than I am in my ability to write code
 
I was a teenager before you could get things like routers at home ...
 
I wire a mean RJ45
@JoeWatkins No you weren't.
 
10:26 PM
I'm sure you could ... but not in my house ...
 
I know this because you are the same age as me iirc
 
there'd have been parts of town you might have seen a router ...
 
But then my dad was well into bleeding edge tech when I was younger
Which is somewhat ironic, since he spent his work hours writing assembler to run on IBM mainframes from the dark ages
 
I don't like thinking back that far ...
 
@JoeWatkins Here's the thing: those days are still with us
 
10:29 PM
not if I don't think about it ...
 
Half of Barclays internal networks run on equipment manufactured 25+ years ago
I'd like to understand asm better actually, but I just cannot think at that low a level
 
I'm not great at it ...
 
I got to like level 4 of that lock game thing a few months ago and then got fed up with it
 
it's hard ...
in a way, the last X years of development were so we don't have to write in assembly ...
shame to waste it ...
 
I just cannot even begin to imagine how things like transport tycoon (one of the best games ever, btw) were created
 
10:34 PM
you should never be surprised that code works ...
 
@JoeWatkins yeh, but someone has maintain the compilers
 
it's not a feeling of achievement when assembly works, every time, it is surprise ...
those people love punishment, don't question it ...
the most recent books added to my collection are assembly ...
I find it hard to read about even today ... I'll get through them, a few times, maybe some will sink in ... I'll get done what I'm trying to do and probably forget most of it ... happened before ...
 
They must be hard to read
 
yep
 
The thing is, assembler itself is actually pretty simple. The thing I have difficulty with is grasping how the big picture breaks down into primitive operations like that
It's more of a mathematical logic puzzle than anything else
 
10:37 PM
I don't find any of it to be simple ... at all ...
simple like c is simple because it has about 10 built in functions ...
simple is relative, I know a fair bit about it, knowledge I've used in the real world, but I'm way way more comfortable thinking about objects or even pointers than addresses and instructions ...
systems got too complicated ... imagine trying to write any single thing you done in the last year soley in assembly from scratch ...
you'd still be doing it today ...
 
@JoeWatkins ditto
 
even C is getting pushed out of the way ... I don't know anyone that does C most of the time except for me ... all of my time infact if I like ... if it weren't for that, and it weren't being used in the context of PHP, I probably wouldn't get to write in C and would forget all about that ... which is a horrible thought ...
 
btw @JoeWatkins on a largely unrelated note, what are your feelings on using macros to essentially hide TSRMLS for sugar?
 
I don't like it ...
we can remove it you know
 
Seems to be pretty commonplace throughout php-src, I do it for consistency in places where its done, but I don't like it
 
10:43 PM
I mean still have it, but not need to pass it around ever ...
oh you mean in an ext
I thought you meant as a php7 thing ...
 
I mean in general
 
in core ? I wouldn't, but it happens everywhere ... so ... probably okay ...
 
yeah do it there
 
I had to make a function PHPAPI, I put it in the relevant place in the header, purely for consistency with that header I made the macro
But it means that commit basically touches a bunch of unrelated code
 
10:45 PM
nice btw
 
weird edge case, hardly surprising no-one had run into it before now
The react guys hit it with an IRC client
 
a non-blocking ssl socket is edge case ?
it would seem pretty normal ... or it did until you said it was an edge case ... sad, if true ...
 
For 99.9% of users. Hell, 99% of them wouldn't even know what that meant
 
streams are fucking really horrible to look at ...
 
That won't be the case forever, of course
 
10:49 PM
ignorance is bliss ... I never look at this stuff ...
 
It's triangular peg -> rhombus hole
 
omg there is a folder full of it ...
 
One of the big problems with streams is that they have been abused into supporting stuff that's not really a stream
 
that's php
 
Actually that particular problem is not specific to PHP
 
10:51 PM
no I mean stream wrapper or gtfo for everything
every thing
 
Well yeh, that's PHP5 single-mindedness. Although it does have its advantages, leaky abstract pisses all over the place
 
I heard that julien might be working on something, any truth to that do you know ?
 
ThW
good night
 
@JoeWatkins And yet... ZipArchive. One place where I really want it to support streams, but no. Apparently that would be too easy.
@ThW nite
 
a new streams layer, possibly with eventy stuff ...
nn @ThW
I dunno where to start with that ... I can imagine a nice streams api ... but the only starting place in all that has to be bugs ...
 
10:54 PM
@JoeWatkins He floated an idea on list a few weeks, I'm kicking around some ideas for a new OO API, I should probably talk to him about that actually, he may be working on something as well
 
but your nice api will be ruined by bc with that mess ...
ext the crap out of it ... bypass that ... at all costs ...
we've enough clout to get extensions we really want in core in ... it only takes a 50% vote ... so write as extension and leave that shit alone ...
 
@JoeWatkins Actually I don't think it needs to be, if we can throw the idea of a stream resource away and have everything work with objects
 
I'm in two minds about that ...
 
stream contexts will be broken, but apart from that everything else should work quite cleanly I think
I mean, the reimpls of those functions will be hateful, but the underlying stream code can be OK
 
I see the benefit ... but but ... it'll break pthreads ability to be useful with resources in multiple threads, not just sockets but images and other stuff that you might really want ...
 
10:57 PM
really not sure what to do about contexts though, really don't want that exist at all
@JoeWatkins interface Shareable {} ?
 
but if you write an ext ... then I can just advise or patch it ...
omg ...
this problem goes away with ng
an object is no longer a handle
it's an address ... you can calculate the address of the real object without doing much at all now ...
 
Not familiar enough with impl details to understand the implications of that
oic
What about locking?
 
yeah, it was a handle to the object store, now it's a physical address
of the wrong thing, but the handlers will give you the right address because part of api now
offset element ...
 

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