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10:02 PM
@AndyProwl It's eerily close to the c99 approach to virtual interfaces: coliru.stacked-crooked.com
 
Walter Bright's article on the origins of D is a nice read.
 
according to Walter, C++ structs aren't movable by default.
 
@Rapptz ew. scary
@Rapptz in MSVC they aren't
 
@sehe Ok let's process this message. Experience is telling me this is not a wrong link you posted, but most likely a joke. The joke is about something that goes wrong with polymorphism, and C99 must have done something wrong about it at some point. Now the thing I miss is knowledge about C99.
Did I parse it correctly, even if it didn't work out due to my lack of resources?
 
 
10:05 PM
lol
ok
 
Q: How should one begin inventing a language?
A: Just take whatever first step you find most appealing and fun. Then take whatever next step presents itself. Repeat.
Sweet :)
 
Hey. Puppy got that part right
However, Bram also took this approach, and... well NSFW
 
@Rapptz Apparently he means "Moveable by default means that structs may not contain internal references to themselves."
 
not really
@EtiennedeMartel Valve has a pretty great video on the subject btw.
 
well, structs are not movable
 
10:14 PM
they are
 
I meant POD structs
 
don't know what you're smoking
 
rofl
"By movable I meant POD".
 
they are still movable by default
 
wow, D forum has fast page loads.
 
10:15 PM
> A POD struct is a non-union class that is both a trivial class and a standard-layout class, and has no non-static data members of type non-POD struct, non-POD union (or array of such types).
 
PODs are movable
 
@Jefffrey Not really making a point there bud.
 
it just so happens that when you move them you get a copy
 
And an elided move would also mean elided copy, right?
 
@Rapptz that I don't see where it's written that it's movable
 
10:16 PM
@Jefffrey if it's copyable, it's movable
 
@Jefffrey Where is it written there that it can be constructed at all?
The part you're listing is pretty much irrelevant in terms of constructing.
It just tells you the definition of what a POD is.
 
In any case the motivation for move semantics did not originate from the desire to move PODs.
:P
 
@Rapptz trivial class tells me that a default constructor exists
 
@StackedCrooked inb4 it's written in Go
 
go on...
 
10:19 PM
@AndyProwl language lawyer level: epic
 
Maybe they are cheating and it's all based on clairvoyance.
 
@Jefffrey Reread what Andy said.
 
@sehe actually I always wondered whether this way of defining things isn't a bit silly
Because in the end the standard itself is using the term "move" with different meanings
sometimes as "move or copy" and sometimes as "'really' move"
 
@Rapptz "if it's copyable, it's movable"?
 
It isn't. It's spot on. That it "doesn't matter" for PODs is an implementation detail. Indeed, PODs aren't very C++-ish things. You use them, like C# uses its structs
 
10:21 PM
No, the other one.
5 mins ago, by Andy Prowl
it just so happens that when you move them you get a copy
 
For instance, somewhere in the library section it is written (or implied) that the state of a "moved-from" object is legal but unknown
I guess the term "moved-from" there means "really" moved from
Like, after a move constructor has been invoked
not like in:
std::string const s = "hello";
auto s2 = std::move(s);
// is the state of s unknown?
 
A move is just an operation that is sometimes cheaper than a copy but sometimes still be the same as a copy.
 
@AndyProwl it's irrelevant. It doesn't say it's impossible to know, for UDT's it's all under your control.
@AndyProwl it's implementation defined/unspecified (though it must be legal and ok for destruction)
 
@sehe How so? It's const, so it cannot be moved from
It must be left untouched
So it means I should be able to tell with 100% certainty what the state of s is
 
@AndyProwl Oh god. Why. I missed the const. Yes, it's not a move. So, yes the state is known. It's back to:
> std::move() doesn't move
 
10:25 PM
@sehe You mean the state is known?
 
Absolutely.
 
Ok. You wrote "unknown"
 
std::move() does nothing. It's just a type cast.
 
Moving objects means trying to trigger a move constructor.
 
@AndyProwl Oops
 
10:26 PM
@sehe Yes, I realize that. But this is the point. The standard says "moved" from but it actually means "really moved" from.
While the term "move" is usually meant as "move or copy"
 
@StackedCrooked Not really. moving object involves invoking the move constructor. std::move(static_cast<const int&>(42)) simply doesn't move
 
Yeah, no move constructor, like I said :P
 
(i.e. no postcondition on the state of b after a = move(b))
 
@AndyProwl Hmm. No. It means "moved from". And, yes, if it's "not really moved from" that doesn't count, obviously
@AndyProwl the postcondition pertains to operator= only, not move()
 
@sehe Well, "moved" here means "when the move constructor has been invoked". Which is not the same meaning as "move" in the general case.
 
10:28 PM
Precisely. No confusion whatsoever (ample room for it, but not essenially)
 
This is the ambiguity I mind
There is confusion. It uses the same word ("move") with two very different meanings.
Context helps disambiguating, yes, but it's still very confusing - especially for beginners
 
@Rapptz So PODs still have the implicit move constructor / assignment just like any other class?
 
@AndyProwl With whom?
 
If the definition of a class X does not explicitly declare a move assignment operator, one will be implicitly
declared as defaulted if and only if
— X does not have a user-declared copy constructor,
— X does not have a user-declared move constructor,
— X does not have a user-declared copy assignment operator,
— X does not have a user-declared destructor, and
— the move assignment operator would not be implicitly defined as deleted.
 
@AndyProwl I think move != move
 
10:30 PM
same thing for move constructor pretty much
§ 12.8/20
 
thanks
 
@sehe I don't think it's just move vs move, sometimes the former is also spelled out as move
 
@AndyProwl oh well, that's worth a DR
 
let's see if I can find a trace of what I'm saying
 
10:34 PM
@StackedCrooked do you like this?
 
why do you want to know :)
 
@JohanLarsson OT!
 
@StackedCrooked just making conversation :)
 
the video is a little disturbing
Right now I don't think it's good or bad. Just a rap song.
 
@sehe sry, I don't know any c++
 
10:38 PM
It also makes you puke, so it's on-topic after all
 
you hate hip-hop?
 
@sehe Seems I can't find evidence for my claim - I searched all occurrences of "move" and they're indeed unambiguous. Probably my brain grew a feeling of ambiguity because when talking about it, it's impossible to distinguish move from move. And by "movable" we usually mean "std::movable". The standard does disambiguate correctly in all occurrences though.
This said, I still don't like the "move doesn't move" thing.
 
Yeah. I must admit it didn't sit comfortably with me until someone else said it out loud: std::move doesn't... move
@AndyProwl Yeah, that's a dead horse though
 
I think the best argument in favor of std::move() was that it expresses the intent of the programmer
 
move doesn't move thing makes perfect sense.
At least to me.
 
10:40 PM
But it still falls short of making a truly good point IMO
 
What do you think moving an int would do?
 
@Rapptz to me too, I'm in favour of a better name, but not now anymore
 
should the other int be uninitialised?
 
@Rapptz It does make sense to me too, I just think those names are bad
What it does is to make a value category cast
so why not rvalue_cast
 
@JohanLarsson No worries. I like this track, but I have not met a single person that agrees.
 
10:42 PM
@Rapptz it could shift bits from the LO word of eax to the HO word :)
 
@AndyProwl the whole undo/redo thing reminds me to the examples sean parent uses in his talks
 
std::hope_for_move obviously
could shorten it to std::hope
 
@gnzlbg only, Sean didn't show the command pattern, instead focusing on trees/compounds of immutable shared nodes
 
std::please_move
 
std::maybe<move>
 
10:43 PM
std::future<std::hope>
 
std::screw
 
std::push_really_hard_on_one_side
 
@sehe you win
 
std::if_you_want_you_can_move
 
@sehe i meant, he uses to implement undo/redo/do - like functionality
 
10:43 PM
@gnzlbg I think I haven't seen that one, which one is it?
Ah wait that GN talk?
 
about concept-based run-time polymorphism
 
yeah
now I remember
 
he shows it with the documents example
 
@StackedCrooked std::allow_move, std::enable_move
 
and in the older talks from boostcon and cppnow
he also uses photoshop and layers/effects as example
 
10:44 PM
@FredOverflow convertible to a std::basic_nail<std::screw_traits<T>::nail_type> with std::hammer(screw)
 
@gnzlbg concept based?
 
@gnzlbg He does. But he doesn't show that in his talks, right
 
@sehe there is a cppnow/boostcon talk in which he uses photoshop as an example i think
 
@FredOverflow std::screw<German>! Why aren't you having lessons in English? :)
I want to watch it
 
@gnzlbg Also, he doesn't really use the command pattern there. More like Memento/COW there
 
10:46 PM
(and understand it)
 
@gnzlbg I know.
 
@AndyProwl Because I live in Germany? :)
 
@StackedCrooked 3.2 on 1 ... 5
 
@gnzlbg The one with the horrible audio?
 
std::schraube_dich
 
10:46 PM
@sehe yes, no command pattern, but @AndyProwl was talking about undo/redo i think, so no need to use command for that anyways
@AndyProwl i think so, it is worth watching tho
 
:D
 
@Andy do you write any wpf?
 
@sehe std::no_screw_you_bang
 
@FredOverflow Yeah good point maybe :P
I can't imagine teaching C++ in my own language
 
me neither
 
10:47 PM
all the concepts and sentences would come up to me in English
 
nor in german
nor understand why people would write c++ in german
 
@JohanLarsson Nope. Is that bad?
 
I have "Exceptional C++" in German. :S
Thanks Amazon
 
and then complain that they cannot find good developers outside germany
 
I've been thinking about studying C# / WPF
 
10:48 PM
@sehe I didn't even know that existed. What's the German title?
 
The same, otherwise I'd have noticed while ordering
 
is like, no shit!, all your variable/functions/classes names and documentation are in german, and non-german speakers can't follow your code even if you followed good practices?
how can that happen!
 
at least with c++ people write words, i used to tackle a fortran 77 codebase in german
find out which word correspond to each initial in this 6 character variable name
in german
 
@fredoverflow amazon.de/…
@gnzlbg Last year in Dusseldorf I attended one MeetingC++ session in German. It was... awkward. But it wasn't as bad as the one in "Engrish" by a German guy :)
 
10:51 PM
@AndyProwl played with undo/redo last week, wrote this. Mostly to play around and learn.
 
i was in a usergroup meeting in february
and everything was in german
every time i mentioned a keyword my mind would switch to english
 
 
just to reswitch to german afterwards
it felt like segfaults would feel
 
@sehe I can't read it but I'm sure it is much better :)
 
@JohanLarsson ah, you really made something :|
 
10:53 PM
try it and flame if you are bored
 
@JohanLarsson That looks interesting, but I would have to study it - hard for me to grasp the whole thing on the fly
 
I gave it a quick look. Too much for me for now (0:54am)
 
Thanks anyway :)
 
it was a long edit & continue session, code got a bit dumb
 
10:57 PM
ew edit & continue. That's a bit like practicing on a shooting ranch while still taking off your coat
 
@sehe lol, my hero
 
ok, time to go to sleep
night all
 
@gnzlbg one of mine too
 
@sehe yeah, could not figure out a way to trigger things from tests so shit hit fan
 
@sehe daemonology.net/blog/… he comments on it after heartbleed
@sehe he entered into university with 13 years?
 
11:08 PM
Yes. Putnam prize, if I recall
 
@sehe indeed
 
lol poking values into memory with BASIC
 
PRINT CHR$(142) is just as bad
 
Now I want to write fancy games in BASIC with cute PETSCII graphics again.
 
Wow. Can you tell I never owned a game console in my life. PETSCII was unknown to me. While I have seen (and used) system on EBCDIC
 
11:12 PM
The PET was not a game console. It was a personal computer.
 
Oh well. Opinions. C64 was marketed as a game computer. Of course, it was employed as cheap PC
 
good night!
 
You too
 
why yes, my good fellow, it is a good night
thanks to all of the drugs.
 
> knowing someone's account password will not allow you to access their data — but if you managed to steal cryptographic keys used by the website you could see how much data someone had stored or create an account without performing the "receive a confirmation email and click on a link" handshake
wow/ such compromise
 
11:14 PM
@sehe The PET did not have games that appealed to non-nerds since it had neither sprites nor sound.
 
I don't even know what PET is. PETSCII was associated to C-64 by google
 
The Commodore PET (Personal Electronic Transactor) is a home/personal computer produced in 1977 by Commodore International. A top-seller in the Canadian and United States educational markets, it was Commodore's first full-featured computer, and formed the basis for their entire 8-bit product line. History Origins and the early models In the 1970s Commodore was one of many electronics companies selling calculators designed around Dallas-based Texas Instruments (TI) CPU chips. However, in 1975 TI increased the price of these components to the point where the chip set cost more than a...
 
In Soviet Russia, Pets ski on you!
 
@FredOverflow LOL. Never heard of
 
We had one of those. It was fucking awesome.
 
11:17 PM
6502 shite.
 
you're shite.
 
Nah, drunk, sure...
 
What's wrong with 6502?
 
@FredOverflow Kerbal Space avant la lettre
 
@FredOverflow Really?
 
11:18 PM
> No file by this name exists.
@MartinJames Were there better alternatives at the time?
 
by the way, please excuse my coarse behaviour, I just took some amitriptyline and for some reason I'm suddenly feeling drunk.
 
@FredOverflow Dammit. Fucking bad URLs/chat markdown. Here: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tentoonstelling_mens_en_computer_Weeknum‌​mer,_79-13_-_Open_Beelden_-_22208.ogv?embedplayer=yes%22
 
still says no.
 
@DeadMG oh I take that shit too
 
11:20 PM
What is it?
 
shit
 
anti-depressive drug
 
I took Wadworths 6X.
 
it anti-depresses my gut so that it actually digests shit.
instead of complaining all day and all night.
 
@DeadMG Dat awkward moment you need a URL shortener to even share a link. Let's hope this works: tinyurl.com/mjs7xwg /cc @FredOverflow
YAY
 
11:22 PM
It works, but NL gunge.
 
Just watch it, will you. It's soooo advanced :)
 
Okay, I watched it.
I had more fun watching you struggle with posting the URL.
 
I'd like to watch it but Swamp Internets.
 
@DeadMG You need to move.
 
I'd love to but first I need to find employment and also ensure that this amitriptyline stuff is going to stay effective.
 
11:27 PM
what did the doctor say about it?
 
not a great deal.
 
gf is a nurse and she knew about it, don't remember what she said about the wearing out part
 
@DeadMG Yeah - I can't comment on the drug treatment, obviously, (hope it works!), but when you get employment and move, don't take anywhere without fibre.
 
can ask her again when she wakes up
 
@FredOverflow :D Glad to be of service
 
11:29 PM
the best thing is prolly a positive loop rendering it redundant
 
could happen
 
Anime atack!
 
lets make it happen, switch to C# and write something fun :)
 
Fuck me, I'm too drunk to get off my office chair.
 
11:32 PM
Office chair?
 
@AndyProwl really?
 
my puppy killed my two office chairs in one week
 
@StackedCrooked Five legs, gas strut, moron-supporting.
 
and the keyboard :)
 
6X just creeps up on me. OK one minute, then...
 
11:37 PM
@JohanLarsson nomnomnom
 
@DeadMG Bailey doesn't eat office furniture, but he's all up for pizza boxes and loo rolls.
 
hah
our previous dog loved loo rolls that were on the roller.
she'd jump up and grab the end, then run all over the house pulling them everywhere
 
@DeadMG Yeah. B. doesn't do that but, if Anne or I I have a bad cold and so have a roll on the bedside table, he'll take it and cover our bed with shreds.
 
rofl
Daisy
this morning, she wouldn't eat her food if I didn't chase her with it
I mean, seriously, I put her bowl down and she came back and begged me to play with it
 
@DeadMG LOL! Dogs...
 
11:45 PM
@DeadMG Haha xD
 
I gotta crawl to bed. I'm fully ratted and Vice Bishops on again at club tomorrow, so another long night on the piss.
 
> Special thanks to John Bytheway for pointing out the real-world utility of naming the "append" member of Hasher to operator() in order to accommodate code which can't call hash_append from a header. Types Don't Know #
Yup. I think it's funny. Sorry, John
 

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