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Xeo
(owners can see deleted posts)
 
the price for developing with UE4 is gonna be shit cheaper than rolling your own even simple engine from scratch
and if your game is a commercial failure you don't owe Epic shit.
 
yeah that's what I meant
 
@Xeo ergh... well if you want me to show you @LightnessRacesinOrbit remind me tonight and I'll whack a shot onto imgur
 
5:00 PM
like, the fact that if you don't use it, you have no way of catching up really
either you're on the bandwagon of some hugeass engine or you're miles behind
 
eh, I doubt that
 
@DeadMG plus UE looks not terrible.
 
that logic would suggest that indies could not compete with AAA before now
 
which is obviously not true.
 
5:01 PM
I wish ThePhD success in selling his engine now
 
@BartekBanachewicz don't forget that graphical quality is not all there is to a game.
 
It's not only about graphical quality
 
@BartekBanachewicz sarcasm overload!
 
@BartekBanachewicz if your game is flappy you could use almost any engine...
 
I doubt he was ever seriously expecting to sell it
 
5:02 PM
@thecoshman heh ok
 
Xeo
UE is pretty okay to work with. the UnrealScript they use is pretty nice actually
 
@DeadMG he's refusing to oss it vOv
 
he has even less chance of selling Furrovine than I do of selling Wide.
 
@Xeo yeah, that's the weak spot; the available version comes w/o unrealscript I think :/
 
@thecoshman That is not really the same thing as expecting to sell it.
 
5:02 PM
@DeadMG people buy languages?
@DeadMG OSS or sell
 
> Designers can build code-free games using Blueprint visual scripting, but there's no UnrealScript, C# or JavaScript.
@Xeo ^
 
they do buy implementations; but the unlikelihood of me ever making a penny on Wide was the joke, you know.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I swear you can use US in UE for free :S maybe you need to buy some sort of intermediate version
 
@John I know. 2D is a different thing altogether.
 
@DeadMG if you ever manage to impress me with it, I'll buy you a coke.
 
5:04 PM
@thecoshman I don't recall
 
if you're making a nice wolf3d clone you can use the source for free....
 
@BartekBanachewicz I've never used it like, but I am sure one of the 'features' is US
 
@thecoshman uh and I am citing the email i got from epic
 
@thecoshman What, you don't like my C++ interop stuff?
 
@John IIRC the code is free, but the likes of 'Wolfenstien' are trademarks and not free to use.
@BartekBanachewicz interesting ¬_¬
@DeadMG you made it, so it is inherently shit.
 
5:05 PM
rofl
 
obviously if its a clone you aren't going to use a trademarked name.... you could call it sheepenstein
 
@BartekBanachewicz link pl0x
 
oh yeah, with the likes of UE or Unity, it's more than just a code library. It's an entire pipeline too.
@EtiennedeMartel isn't that what you work with, pipeline tools?
 
ITT: Etienne is put out of a job by Epic.
 
5:08 PM
he makes shitty mobile games, I don't think Epic are in bothering with that 'gold mine'
 
HTML / CSS / WebDesign is having a flaggot attack. At least it's not just us.
 
@MartinJames my finger very nearly slipped
 
UE4 runs on mobile
 
@DeadMG ITT: Etienne really is put out of a job by Epic.
 
@thecoshman Not been flagged for ages. Must work on my, (bad), language skills
 
5:10 PM
@thecoshman UE runs on android and ios
 
1 hour ago, by sehe
> All I can see: http://youtu.be/myT3HdR48HI (mildly SFW?)
 
hahahahaha
can't believe this is funny:
 
it's not
 
> error: parse error in template argument list
^ example of not-funny.
 
5:13 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes this actually is funny
 
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes I can confirm that many game studios and games use massive watermark-like non-optimizable NO-OP slides to demark their stuff.
 
well now. This is a lot like a cream pie. On it's own, just sat on the counter, it is not funny, tempting maybe, but not funny. Said cream pie flying into someones face however, hilarious!
 
@ThePhD is this going to influence your decision on keeping your engine closed source? (out of curiosity)
 
user3010322
Furrovine is primarily not in open source because it's not ready to be open-sourced.
 
user3010322
Also, AAAGH I CAN'T BELIEVE THAT RELEASED UE4 OPENSOURCE, THAT HORROR WILL ESCAPE ITS CAGE
 
5:17 PM
you are aware of the fact that there's no "open source exam"
or "certified for open source"
or "ready for open source" sticker
 
@ThePhD If the source code is available it's a bit harder to add watermarks.
Anyway, my template castle just crumbled in a wall of errors.
 
user1804599
Oh, cool.
 
user1804599
Grapher can copy as LaTeX expressions.
 
will we be allowing ue4 in lounge jams?
 
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, the source code of Unreal is so godawful messy, I can't really say that anyone could penetrate that fortress.
 
user3010322
5:22 PM
I tried. I didn't get far. ;~;
 
@BartekBanachewicz lol
 
BTW
I wonder when will Web target get widely avaialable
epic already did that, time for community
 
@BartekBanachewicz lol
 
This is fantastic! https://www.unrealengine.com/ Very bold move.
 
user3010322
Wait a second.
 
user3010322
5:28 PM
You get github access on a subscription plan?
 
user3010322
Or do I get to find the source itself?
 
user3010322
Let's go fishing!
 
prolly is on some torrents already
 
user3010322
D:<<<<<<
 
user3010322
 
user3010322
NICE ONE, EPIC GAMES.
 
user3010322
MAYBE UPLOAD THE SHIT BEFORE YOU ADVERTISE IT?
 
@ThePhD it's private, noob.
 
user3010322
Oh.
 
MAYBE READ THE SHIT BEFORE YOU PRETEND YOU'RE BETTER THAN IT?
 
user3010322
5:29 PM
I have to associate my UE4 account with it.
 
user3010322
How boring, so it's not opensource until I pays the moneys.
 
user3010322
D:
 
@ThePhD Who said it's open source?
 
@ThePhD Where did you read it was open source
>.>
 
Just sharing source code and tools does not make it "open source".
 
user3010322
5:30 PM
Hey, it was close enough. >.>
 
Both are available only on subscription.
No, you weren't really.
 
user3010322
Totally close.
 
user3010322
Also, it lied to me saying "everyone gets access to the full UE4 C++ source code"
 
user3010322
When clearly we don't until we pay da moneyz. D:<
 
Pretty sure the astronauts on the ISS don't get access to it either.
You should sue
 
user3010322
5:33 PM
Definitely.
 
user3010322
False advertising!
 
I only just realised what "@presiuslitelsnoflek" actually "spells"
3
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I guess they would have to upload it, instead of downloading.
 
@MartinJames What?
Because they're "up" in the sky?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit :)
 
5:37 PM
Nice :P
Did you know, that's how file transfers work?
 
The cloud is not hip enough for them.
 
user1804599
So
 
user1804599
Grapher has literally every feature you can possibly think of …
 
user1804599
except you cannot change the axis labels. :V
 
5:51 PM
@thecoshman Yes.
@BartekBanachewicz They're trying to counter Unity.
@DeadMG It's not that simple.
 
yes, I know, I was just kidding.
 
Using an external technology incurs a technical debt.
Sure, if I had to start something from scratch right now, I'd probably go with Unity, but now that we're sitting on something we own, scrapping it would be counterproductive.
 
user3010322
Speaking of technical debt, my flac reader broke and I have to fix it.
 
fuck boost.build.
 
user3010322
While I'm at it, I may as well completely restructure my Sound Engine.
 
user3010322
5:58 PM
I don't have support for streaming sounds without some really tedious manual work, so I should definitely include that in the new design.
 
I had a bunch of stuff I wanted to do for Wide and I totally forgot what it was.
 
user3010322
I can use libvorbisenc libvorbisdec libflac libcelt to take care of all the audio formats I'd ever want to support.
 
user3010322
I don't think I want to support MP3 because FRAUNHOFFER POLIZEI will find me.
 
user3010322
Wav is easy enough to do on my own, and...
 
user3010322
.... I think that's all the formats I'd like to handle.
 
user3010322
6:00 PM
The rest are esoteric and not very widespread.
 
user3010322
.... Now I just have to build these libraries for VS 2013 CTP. <___>
 
user3010322
It's a party!
 
user3010322
There's also that weird Bink! audio/video format I can't understand for the life of me.
 
user3010322
But virtually every game company in the whole goddamn world uses it.
 
user3010322
And I don't understand why they always make that choice. Is there something wonderful about its compression?
 
6:03 PM
maybe they can be decoded very fast or have a very expressive API
 
@ThePhD It has nice support.
 
user3010322
> Bink has a VBR psycho-acoustic based audio codec capable up to 15:1 compression built-in. You don't need to license another codec for your audio.
 
user3010322
Well, shit.
 
user3010322
That craps on just about every other codec.
 
user3010322
Last I checked, MP3 was about 8-6:1 ?
 
user3010322
6:07 PM
Let's check wikipedia...
 
user3010322
Ah
 
user3010322
> The rate of 128 kbit/s is commonly used,[45] at a compression ratio of 11:1 - Wikipedia
 
user3010322
Most audio files are desired at 320 br, though
 
user3010322
I'm not sure if it's vbr or cbr
 
user3010322
Damn, Bink's in the Game Developers hall of fame.
 
user3010322
6:11 PM
But I really can't afford Bink right now. =/
 
user3010322
@DeadMG Apparently, its decoding is break-neck fast.
 
user3010322
Due in no small part that they've went as far as to hand-write assembly for the Nintendo DS, to make sure it works under strict time constraints.
 
which almost certainly contributes jack shit to how fast it is decoding on a PC.
 
user3010322
Well, on x86 they use SSE2.
 
user3010322
They use Sony's dedicated SPUs on teh PS3/PS4.
 
6:17 PM
G'morning
 
room topic changed to Lounge<T>: Room of a Thousand Languages. loungecpp.net [my-code-is-compiling]
 
ahem.
I don't recall nominating you for room owner.
 
user3010322
Yaay, Robert's back!
 
> La soumission n'est pas une option pour ceux qui ont une moustache de champion.
 
user3010322
@JerryCoffing a while ago, you said that it's not worth it to work with both libFlac and libVorbis for the two different audio formats, and that I should just use libOpus (opus-codec.org) for everything?
 
6:24 PM
Any recommendations on ebook (or other online/free resource) for learning the basics of C/C++?
Decided to finally learn me a real language
 
user2286243
@SomeKittensUx2666 So, which are fake languages?
 
Languages implemented in C
 
user3010322
> Broadcom and the Xiph.Org Foundation own software patents on some of the CELT algorithms, and Skype Technologies S.A./Microsoft own some on the SILK algorithms; but each has pledged to make them available royalty-free for use with Opus once the codec was accepted as an IETF standard.
 
real language as opposed to integer and imaginary languages?
 
user3010322
Well.
 
user3010322
6:26 PM
That makes me uneasy to use Opus...
 
@SomeKittensUx2666 Many languages have implementations written in C.
GCC was written in C for a long time.
 
assert(room.humor); // false
 
user2286243
@SomeKittensUx2666 I like this book.
 
@SomeKittensUx2666 Do you want to learn C or C++?
 
6:28 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes It's really relearn, I took a class in college but have learned so much since then.
 
Lesson #0: Programming in C and programming C++ are wildly different things to learn.
 
/me is learning!
 
your college class almost certainly did not teach any actual c++.
 
ARrhfgjkdhsfgh
Time for dinner. Fuck templates.
 
user3010322
:D
 
user2286243
6:29 PM
When I was in college, they used Turbo C++ for teaching C.
 
Q: Which language do you want to learn, C or C++? A: Waffles.
 
they still do.
 
user3010322
@RobertHarvey I wonder if there's a language called Waffles
 
user2286243
@DeadMG Actually, I was in college till October. Then, I drop out
 
user3010322
Nope, no such language.
 
6:30 PM
...derp.
 
Xeo
@RobertHarvey Pancake
 
user3010322
Question: With Waffles, Syrup or Honey?
 
I want to get into something more low-level than the web languages I'm proficient in, primarily to make myself more valuable for my next job.
 
user3010322
With Pancakes: Syrup or Honey?
 
so, either C or C++, I guess.
 
Xeo
6:32 PM
@ThePhD ew honey
 
Why am I still in the office at 19:30.
 
@SomeKittensUx2666 They're totally different beasts.
 
user3010322
Because you love your job.
 
GCC wins. I have to admit defeat.
 
The answer to "which language should I learn next" is always "the one that most interests you."
 
user2286243
6:33 PM
@SomeKittensUx2666 No, you should go with assembly or maybe machine language
 
also
desiring to learn a "low level" language is pointless.
 
user3010322
C++ is high-level. It compiles to Javascript.
8
 
identify a problem you need to solve; identify a language that solves that problem the best; pick it.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes whatcha doing?
 
Problem: I don't know programming as well as I want to
 
Xeo
6:33 PM
@RobertHarvey const Haskell
 
@Xeo 'My thing'. Id est debugging huge template backtraces.
 
@SomeKittensUx2666 define "programming".
 
@SomeKittensUx2666 The way you solve that is by writing code and reading books and blogs. But mostly, by writing code.
 
@RobertHarvey I'm aware, thanks. I write lots of code, but I want to expand my abilities beyond web languages
 
In other news, it appears I now like Boost.Proto. :S
 
6:36 PM
@SomeKittensUx2666 Follow your interest.
 
user3010322
Interesting.
 
user3010322
user image
2
 
I would kill for a proper template debugger right now.
 
@RobertHarvey thanks, Buddah.
 
Anyway...
4287
Q: The Definitive C++ Book Guide and List

grepsedawkThis question attempts to collect the few pearls among the dozens of bad C++ books that are published every year. Unlike many other programming languages, which are often picked up on the go from tutorials found on the Internet, few are able to quickly pick up C++ without studying a well-written...

That's the only list with the Lounge seal of approval.
 
6:38 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Looked through that, but I'm just looking for web tutorial or somesuch
Still at a loss as to the difference between C and C++
 
Xeo
There's a high chance any kind of web tutorial for C++ sucks
 
@SomeKittensUx2666 Everything.
 
Xeo
@SomeKittensUx2666 different languages?
 
basically.
 
Xeo
isn't that difference enough?
 
@Xeo fair enough
I've heard good things about Learn C the Hard Way
 
If you want to learn C, maybe.
 
Xeo
I've heard good things about 'Not learn C in any way'
2
 
user2286243
Does C have namespace's? I am sure about C++ but unsure about C.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes @Rapptz What do you guys think?
 
6:41 PM
@VarunAgw Caring about C at all is just plain silly.
 
@VarunAgw C doesn't really have anything.
@SomeKittensUx2666 The problem with that is that you learn C.
 
Boy, am I exhausted.
 
try going home
 
I'm on the way.
 
oakydoaky
try setting an alarm to go off at 5pm to remind you to go home.
 
6:42 PM
Gonna grab some pizza or something first.
 
Xeo
pizza day is tomorrow
hopefully with actual pizza delivery, this time
also, damn, now that I know I'm getting glasses, I can't wait to have them.
 
You're getting glasses? What for?
 
better vision presumably
 
Alrighty then, where's a good place to learn C++?
 
Xeo
I'm near-sighted. Pretty badly so, with -2.5 and -3.0.
 
user1804599
 
Xeo
I should've gotten glasses years ago
 
@Dead I meant, what kind of eyesight problem?
 
4 mins ago, by DeadMG
http://codepuppy.co.uk/cpptuts/default.php
 
Xeo
don't trust puppy, he just wants to sneakily guide you towards Wide
 
I wore glasses for some ten-ish years.
Astigmatism.
 
6:47 PM
I wore glasses for your mother, they turned her on
 
Recovered somehow, but now I'm getting worried again. Still on the fence if I'm really having trouble or just overreacting because having trouble seeing is one of those things that scare the hell out of me.
 
seeing is a useful skill
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Drink more beer. Then it won't matter.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I like the new design
 
Yum, pizza.
 
Xeo
6:49 PM
yum strawberries
 
@DeadMG oh you
yum I have no food :/
 
I have food but can't consume it.
 
Xeo
also, yum yellow tea from Pfanner
 
did I tell you what results I got from my CT scan?
 
> When does your current project end? If you like to keep your ear to the ground for opportunities in Games, then I have loads available. Feel free to contact me at any time!
 
6:50 PM
@DeadMG I read it earlier in transcript
 
sometimes I wonder why recruiters bother ¬_¬
 
cause recruiters
 
If I get home around six sometimes a flatmate invites me to partake of their meal. That's nice.
 
its their job to bother
 
Because there's very little cost to spam emails
 
6:51 PM
I don't have flatmates
 
But now it's a bit late to be home at six.
 
it only costs 'em money if you reply to their InMail.
 
Living alone is cool, but I prefer flatmates.
 
I'd much prefer to live alone.
nobody else to STEAL MY INTERNETS
 
I think my wife would object if I brought in flatmates.
 
6:53 PM
I'd like flatmates on occasion
when I'm in the mood
otherwise no
 
Xeo
@DeadMG I think that problem could also be solved by getting faster interwebs, i.e. not living in a swamp
 
Never noticed any significant Internet stealage and we're seven
 
@DeadMG "The ugly" section in your tutorial website got 404'd. It would be nice if you could fix this.
 
Super fast connection ftw
 
Xeo
twist: it was never not 404d
 
6:54 PM
@Xeo He loves the swamp :P
 
@Xeo Pretty sure it was.
let me check
 
Hmm I forgot that the path where I got lost the other day is shorter. Dammit.
 
oakydoaky
 
I wanna note that your book on OOP using C++ seems to be from 1991 but C++ had its first standard in 1998 with others in 2003, 2011 and now 2014 so I dunno how much I'd trust that book to represent current C++ style. If you're looking for a good C++ book, then there's a good list at The Definitive C++ Book Guide and ListRaphael Miedl yesterday
lol, why do people read these ancient books?
 
I know that I authored the ugly tutorials, but I'm not sure if they're still alive anywhere.
 

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