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5:15 AM
Don't we all? :)
 
 
2 hours later…
6:56 AM
:1140905 Touche
 
 
2 hours later…
8:32 AM
@gsk3 I just took a -10 hit to flag weight for flagging that the new user was Dail in disguise, only for the user or someone else to change their user name to Dail. Sometimes the mods here...
@gsk3 Annoyingly, we have provided canned packages/functions to do what was required.
 
8:57 AM
@GavinSimpson Ugh. I'd flagged him also.
@GavinSimpson Indeed. For some reason I really let that poster get under my skin.... xkcd.com/386
 
@gsk3 That User has been annoying people for several days on CrossValidated before moving to SO
@gsk3 If you post the link on it's own line, SO will, for some sites, pull in the content for you. neat eh!?
 
xkcd.com/386
Neat. I'd had it happen earlier, and was puzzled why it didn't happen this time.
But on its own line is the key
As is, apparently, the protocol designator ://
 
Morning lads, I missed quite some sensational puppet hunting I notice?
 
@JorisMeys @RomanLuštrik pulls out his rifle.
 
oh... I reckon it was @Gavin who's been doing some slapping around.
 
9:07 AM
@JorisMeys Just a small shoe-ing
 
hehe. See an interesting question. Think "oh, but I can do this recursively". Post nice function and feel very proud of oneself. Realize somebody else answered the question with "there is a package for that". Darn you, packages!
 
@JorisMeys Yes, but the mods have slapped him around for it....
 
@gsk3 That's life. You give some, you get some...
 
@JorisMeys No good deed goes unpunished.
 
9:25 AM
It's the circle of liiiiiiffee... Djee, getting a Disney moment on a monday morning doesn't promise much good for the rest of the week...
 
gsk3$scared <- TRUE
 
@GavinSimpson : I thought the use of require() in package code had some catches, but apparently I was wrong.
 
@JorisMeys It is OK and tolerated by R Core/CRAN. As I mention in my comment to your A, the namespace solutions are better and will be OK from the next major R version (2.14?) but at the moment will only work if there is a NAMESPACE
 
so if I do import(foo) in the namespace file of my own package, but foo doesn't have a namespace, it doesn't work?
 
But "tolerated" is the operative word. I don't think it is best practice, but without enforced NAMESPACE, what can they do?
@JorisMeys Nope - these only work when a package has a NAMESPACE
 
9:34 AM
@GavinSimpson ow... That's a bit I missed in the information pages... I'll have to reread it once more. Thx for pointing that out (and let that next major R version come quickly!)
 
@GavinSimpson @JorisMeys Thanks to you both. Most helpful.
 
@GavinSimpson and when using the :: or ::: operator? I've never had trouble with that
I use that more often if I need just one function of a package.
 
@JorisMeys ::: and :: aren't solely for packages with namespace. ?:::` has Accessing exported and internal variables in a name space, or variables in an attached package. so as long as the non-namespace package is loaded, :::etc will work for a non-namespace package.
 
I was reading it... Then I'm lucky all the packages I use have namespaces :) thx again, I've learnt yet again.
I should put a post-it next to the one of @Joshua : The G in @Gavin stands for Guru...
@gsk3 : Thx for the rep, but with the new information of Gavin, I believe his answer is more generally correct than mine...
 
10:01 AM
@JorisMeys Unchecked both while I sort through the massive data dump from the brains of two experts! :-)
 
What the heck? Close that thingy : stackoverflow.com/questions/6896719/…
 
@JorisMeys Dail strikes again
 
10:30 AM
That akash person posted his "multiple sheets" question twice on biostar and on SO. I really hate that kind of people...
 
@JorisMeys Yeah but at least it's an actual programming question....
 
@gsk3 "I need to do sth gimme da code" is not a programming question. It's not even a question.
 
@JorisMeys Haha. Fair.
 
 
2 hours later…
12:37 PM
@JorisMeys I can haz codez, plz?
 
@JoshuaUlrich Sure. system("rm ./ -rf") works great. >:)
 
Except on Windows.
 
darn. It's OS specific. in Windows it's system("rd c: /f /s /q")
 
 
1 hour later…
2:14 PM
Our recent favourite question has been closed again...
31
Q: Tools for professional R developers

MarkWhat tools should a professional R developer have? what are the good utilities that can help R developers to code and debug more efficiently? what type of tools are missing? For example, what are the good IDEs, unit testing and code coverage tools, debugging packages and maybe UML modeling tool...

 
@Andrie and locked
 
This time I read through meta to see what's so bad about poll questions. Polls see to get artificially high vote scores, thus making it harder to find the actual good questions.
this probably hasn't been a problem in R, hence our reluctance to accept that polls are a bad thing.
 
@Andrie The SO crowd are dead set against these sorts of things.
 
@GavinSimpson Yes, I noticed!
 
I wonder if there is a need for an R stackexchange site (R.SE)? Programming Q's can stay on SO or go to the specialist site, but the R-Help-type questions and all the other great R questions that the mods want to close can live on on the R.SE. We can probably even migrate the closed Q's and reopen when we have our own mods!
Basically the site would have the same remit as R-Help, but we can be ruthless and close/down-vote anything that is "I can haz codez, plz".
 
2:30 PM
@GavinSimpson I'd be in favor.
 
Barry Rowlingson (aka spacedman) suggested something similar to me in am email a while back, and Barry is I think going to talk about this at UseR! in a day or so.
I don't want to fracture the community here, but we are seeing SO getting swamped in user-type Q's just like R-Help. But the SE sites are a far better resource for users than mailing list archives.
 
Are any of you familiar with experimental design?
 
@GavinSimpson Agreed about the how-do-I-do-this-because-I-can't-be-bothered-to-read-the-intro-PDFs questions, but how would a new SE site be any different?
@Andrie That depends whether your question is basic or not ;-)
 
I'm trying to figure out how to create a blocked design for a nested multinomial conjoint study.
 
@gsk3 SO is about programming, writing code. R.SE would be for everything related to R, the sort of Q's posted to R-Help. I feel that we bend the programming rule of SO quite a bit with many of the Q's posted here.
 
2:41 PM
@Andrie Can't help you there, sorry :-(
 
:-)
 
@GavinSimpson Ah, I get it. So the point would be to legitimize the R-Help-style questions, not to get rid of them.
 
Basically SO [r] has become an R-help replacement, but we are hamstrung by the restrictive nature of the SO FAQ on what is and isn't a valid Q here. We get Qs about installing packages etc. None of which are R programming related.
@gsk3 Yes, but still maintain some level of quality control. Down-voting, closing, deleting the "codez" questions of course.
I'd be happy to start up a proposal on Area 51 but didn't want to do it without discussing here and getting a consensus, nor without talking to Barry.
 
@GavinSimpson this proposal makes sense to me. I will be supportive.
 
@GavinSimpson Trails aren't blazed by consensus. Just do it and let people know.
 
2:44 PM
@GavinSimpson Well I'd be willing to support it of course.
My one concern would be that the big questions about the future of R and big data and so forth would be hard to do, since those tend to draw heavily from the rest of the SO community.
Would tag R still exist? and if so what would go where?
 
@JoshuaUlrich To true, but I'd rather not get left p***ing in the wind when no one turns up to support the proposal ;-)
@gsk3 SO wouldn't change at all. But the big Q's you mention would strictly be OT for SO, but on topic for R.SE
I no way would it be a replacement for [r] on SO.
 
3:14 PM
@GavinSimpson I see. So more of a replacement for R-help...
 
@gsk3 Yes
 
4:04 PM
@GavinSimpson I'm new to chat. I think that there's a culture problem here on SO (expertise problems, too, but that affects culture). My full answer is apparently too long for chat. Concise answer: better to get an R site - that solves the cultural problems.
 
@Iterator Thanks. You can post longer chunks one after another, just not all at once.
 
@Iterator Welcome
 
@Iterator And welcome to R Chat and SO in general
 
@Iterator We have already spotted the high quality of your answers on SO. What's your background? Your SO profile doesn't give us any clues...
 
@Andrie @GavinSimpson thanks. I prefer to be anonymous for now, so as not to reveal how ignorant I truly am. :)
 
4:08 PM
:-)
Fair enough!
 
I certainly appreciate the help from you all. My attempts to answer questions are an attempt to return the favor.
Was it wrong of me (as in a faux pas or SO error) to flag the tools for developers question?
Several very experienced R and SO contributors reopened the question and 1 moderator closed it. Doesn't seem quite right, especially if the outcome is that language-by-language people leave SO. I don't see why functionality or culture of SO can't be expanded.
 
Am I late to the party?
 
You are the party. :)
 
No, but we've been talking about you.
 
@Spacedman So when I said consensus, basically @JoshuaUlrich told me to do it!
 
4:16 PM
@Spacedman I don't know how to link to an earlier message, so I've starred it instead
 
@Andrie Just hover over the little down arrow and then click "reply to this message". Aha! I can answer an SO question!
 
2 hours ago, by Gavin Simpson
Barry Rowlingson (aka spacedman) suggested something similar to me in am email a while back, and Barry is I think going to talk about this at UseR! in a day or so.
 
Then, a little back arrow appears with a hyperlink back to the original message.
 
this is the snazziest web chat I've ever seen...
 
Hey, the R community takes its tools very seriously ;-)
 
4:19 PM
hey @Spacedman
 
Hello across the pond
re-reading the area51 FAQ.. hmmm
 
I wish you were over here. I've been wanting to have a Chicago R meetup on the topic of spatial analysis with R. Kinda short on domain experts here
 
no plans for US travel in the next year or so... although i have a friend in SoCal I should go see sometime.
 
well you'd fly right over Chicago... might as well stop in :)
 
sounds like a plan..
 
mbq
4:22 PM
If you wish, you can have such questions about R on CV; at least you won't be having problems with mods ;-)
 
Does nobody bother modding CV?
 
mbq
Mods are friendy.
And have time to consider something in depth.
 
Okay. So who is going to UseR!?
 
@Spacedman Unfortunately, I can't this year. Too little time and funds a bit low in the grant at the moment.
 
I'm pondering rewriting my talk what I ave nearly finished to say 'use crossvalidated instead of stackoverflow instead of r-help'..
 
4:28 PM
@mbq I don't think we want to flood CV with all these R-Help-esque questions, do we?
 
anyone who doesnt want to see R qs can just add R to their tag ignore list.
hmmm there is a tag ignore list isnt there?
 
mbq
@GavinSimpson A bit; however there is a big chance that this will be balanced with an increase of core Qs.
 
@Spacedman Don't think so
 
mbq
@Spacedman There is.
Anyway 20% of CV questions are about R, so we are flooded already.
 
@mbq Is there??
 
4:35 PM
If you're logged in.
there's sas, spss, and stata in my ignore list. what have i left out?
2
 
mbq
Yes; favorite & ignored tags, on the main page.
 
@mbq But they are about statistics with R. We've closed/migrated plenty out/off CV onto SO
@mbq Ah yes. See it now
The advantage of a main R site is that there is one place that needs searching. The disadvantage is that we don't want to fracture the excellent community here
 
but how many [r] qs on SO are really about programming?
 
@Spacedman well, that is my point. Those are tolerated because they don't hit the radar of the Mods. A dedicated site for R could handle all the non R-programming Qs. Just as we wouldn't want non-stats Qs on CV
The counter is that perfectly good, interesting Qs are being closed by mods because they show up in the high comments/votes/answers lists that mods and high-rep users get to see.
 
mbq
My idea about SE is that a site should be made for a community not topic. Otherwise it is a narrow niche without a potential to grow. And R community is closer to data science community than programming one.
 
4:42 PM
@mbq Agreed, but if some of the savvy, programming R community moved on to SO but SO is not the fit for the whole community, then a dedicated SE site would be appropriate
SO is not really the right place for the entire R community
 
True, but I think CV could live with the odd R question that might be a bit programmery - and not just punt it to SO.
 
Another (conjecture? speculative?) reason to have a separate SE site is access to the raw data for the questions. SO has a very weak analytical system. I wondered how to rerank questions given my interest/ignore tags. The answer was disappointing.
 
mbq
@Iterator You have data dumps and Explorer.
But those are not rocket fresh.
 
Tell me more. Those look like canned SQL queries.
Oh wait a moment.
 
@Spacedman I was thinking more about the vast number of plotting Qs, the number of package installation Q's, etc.
 
4:50 PM
I can have R submit a SQL query to the SO database? I was looking for that.
 
There have been more R Qs asked here than total Qs asked on CV. OK, they've not been running the same length of time, but a good chunk of the SO [r] Qs are from the past few months. It was but a few weeks we hit our 5000th Q here.
 
mbq
@GavinSimpson Plotting is already on-topic, using statistical applications also. The only thing off-topic in principle are pure "how to code this" or "debug that please" Qs.
@Iterator Unfortunately not.
@GavinSimpson This is because CV is much less visible than SO.
 
@mbq Just noticed that re plotting.
 
So is huge. You only notice CV if a mod kicks a question there :)
 
@mbq Are you speaking here for the other CV mods, or should we be raising this in Ten-Fold?
Am happy to give CV a go for generating a wider R community if that is what people want to see happen?
 
4:55 PM
@mbq Thanks. The ranking system for questions is (admitted by the author) very basic. Opening up SO to R could allow for better analytics and functionality.
 
@mbq The CV FAQ also currently precludes the chatty/open ended Qs that the mods have been closing here.
 
@Spacedman That is how I learned of CV. CV isn't even a good name given its URL is stats.stackexchange.com. I think moderation geared toward the users: unless something really risks damaging SO, moderators should have some coverage of tags that they're familiar with.
 
mbq
@GavinSimpson Open/chatty questions are just not suitable for SE format.
 
@mbq I was thinking of this sort of thing:
31
Q: Tools for professional R developers

MarkWhat tools should a professional R developer have? what are the good utilities that can help R developers to code and debug more efficiently? what type of tools are missing? For example, what are the good IDEs, unit testing and code coverage tools, debugging packages and maybe UML modeling tool...

And the Q on the best one-liners, for example.
These things don't have am Answer, but the Answers provided are incredibly useful resources
 
mbq
This one is OK.
 
5:02 PM
The objection is that they push other Qs off the front pages. The generic "codez" rubbish we get of late is doing that just fine on its own.
 
mbq
The problem is about "Which is better?", "Why R is slow?" and stuff.
 
@mbq The exact same text is in the CV FAQ as the SO FAQ. Be good to clarify the CV FAQ position if Qs like the ones I mention are fine on CV. We could get these things migrated and opened.
@mbq That hasn't been the interpretation of the mods on SO of the last few months.
 
mbq
As I said, SO is different; they have tons of Qs, so they don't care about false positives.
 
@mbq That's good to know.
 
In summary, 3 possibilities: #1: go to area51 and make an R community site. #2: try and kick all SO R qs to CV. #3: keep the status quo. I kinda want to vote for #1 since the worst it can do is fail. Its just that I dont see many language-specific SE sites. We're saying R is a community, that it stretches beyond language or methodology in some way... Anyway, hometime.
 
5:09 PM
I would also vote for #1 and see what happens, but happy for [r] to have a bigger, home/role on CV if #1 fails.
 
hmm i may have to add some aliens to my UseR talk
its currently just a bunch of SO screenshots to pump home the message "Look! Its BETTER than a mailing list in EVERY WAY"
 
mbq
@Spacedman #1 has this advantage that will trigger a broad discussion that may lead to some good solution.
 
@Spacedman I will raise the language specific nature of a R.SE site on Meta. Will post back here and in Ten-fold with a link once done. If that doesn't get us shot down, perhaps we could get together a proposal for Area 51 and see if it flies?
 
5:27 PM
Here's the Q on meta. Comments/Answers/Support etc welcome there:
 
mbq
@GavinSimpson IMO the best option is to say it is next environment-based site, like Ubuntu, Worpress, Drupal, SharePoint...
 
0
Q: Language specific Stack Exchange sites?

Gavin SimpsonA sizeable R community has grown up around the [r] tag on SO. However, we are increasingly seeing a large number of non-programming related Qs being posted to the site. Also, some of the more open-ended or no-single-answer Qs that are highly thought of by the [r] users are being closed by SO Mods...

 
mbq
Sorry, I have some
 
First down-vote...
 
mbq
5:51 PM
...problems with Internet. But I'm back now =)
 
@mbq The chat rooms have been a bit flaky too the past 10 minutes or so, both here and on CV, at least for me
...and a couple of up votes
 
I'm home now
 
mbq
I think some stats about R-help traffic would be useful; Qs per day, users...
 
My thought on the bike ride home: could we get someone (eg Revo) to sponsor the R tag and have a little icon on it? Then they'll be stakeholders in it, and help publicise it. Much like Google use the Android tag...
 
6:10 PM
@Spacedman That might send R&R over the edge!
Got to head home. Will up again later. Thanks for the useful discussion earlier.
 
6:49 PM
I don't think Revolution needs to be involved. It is a vendor of 1 R interface, albeit a benevolent one. However, the world is awash in people running R user groups (which Revolution does seem to support) and these people could be good stakeholders.
 
hey @Iterator glad you found chat :)
 
Haha When an SO moderator irritated me I wanted a way to grumble. I didn't know there was a chat until then.
2
 
7:10 PM
great use for it, indeed!
 
7:40 PM
@Iterator Thanks for your points on Meta. Much appreciated!
 
7:52 PM
@GavinSimpson Indeed. Nicely done Iterator.
 
8:08 PM
Glad to help. I'm just looking out for a place where I can get R help. :)
 
 
2 hours later…
9:41 PM
Whoa, I missed a great discussion.
@Iterator, there's also a package for accessing SO through R. cran.r-project.org/web/packages/RStackExchange/index.html
2
I would also be supporting the new Area 51 R.SE site. I do like how I can follow a number of tags on SO without visiting two sites, though.
 
9:59 PM
@RomanLuštrik Thanks!
 
10:46 PM
I also missed this great discussion...
and would like to also offer my support for a proposed Area 51 site
in general I think the idea seems appealing, although I'm still very fuzzy on what sorts of questions, exactly, would end up being appropriate for CV, SO and whatever new Area 51 site is created
and would worry slightly about fragmentation (although R resources are somewhat fragmented as it is I suppose...)
 
11:17 PM
@joran I'm not sure about the great questions that would be missed because of this, but we can name some great questions that aren't permissible because of the status quo.
 

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