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7:07 AM
This is exactly what was talked about. Not a programming question but R question none the less. stackoverflow.com/questions/6907937/…
 
7:37 AM
Yup, and I think that currently belongs on CV with a big fat R tag.
 
8:08 AM
@Spacedman (IMHO) this is a perfect on-topic Q for a (to be) proposed R.SE site. Not so sure about C, but that depends on the mods, and @mbq was very accommodating yesterday.
 
Maybe we could add r-help tag to CV and anyone not interested in those sort of questions can easily ignore it.
 
8:32 AM
@RomanLuštrik I don't think we should do both. We either discuss further with the mods on CV and give that a proper go as regards generating a bigger SE R community, or we hold station for a while, submit a proposal to Area 51, and see what traction that gets. If it succeeds, great, if not, we can take up other options like CV. It would be counter productive to try to do both at the same time.
I would be happy either way.
 
I may have been misunderstood. I'm not suggesting to do both. I agree with what you just said.
 
If pushed to choose, @RomanLuštrik from #1 Area 51 proposal, #2 Build up CV, or #3 status quo, where would your allegiance lie?
 
I will support either #1 or #2.
 
@RomanLuštrik I think @Spacedman is in the same camp. He plumped for #1 yesterday, but you can see elements of #2 in his earlier comment. #2 would certainly bring an element of immediacy to proceedings - the site is ready to go!
 
I wonder if we could get r-sig-* to migrate to the new site.
 
8:51 AM
@RomanLuštrik I think one advantage of R.SE would be that people who currently have no interest in SO because they don't want to start at the bottom might be interested and would feel ownership if they got in at the ground level. So migration of people from r-sig-* and R-help doesn't sound so implausible to me.
 
morning lads
 
Morning
I have just posted a Q on this in CV Meta to garner wider input from the CV people:
0
Q: R-specific StackExchange site or greater integration of R community within CV?

Gavin SimpsonThere has been discussion over how more of the R community could be brought into the StackExchange fold. (See also this Question on SO Meta.) If I were to sum-up feelings expressed thus far, we are split between proposing a new, all encompassing SE site for R (R.SE) or finding a bigger home here...

@gsk3 I agree - the SE platform does allow for plenty of filtering so those people who have gone away from R-help might be drawn back in when they can control the sorts of Qs they see
 
9:10 AM
@GavinSimpson I was thinking in terms of being annoyed at moderators and being annoyed at starting with 0 reputation when someone with no R-specific knowledge has XXk of rep.... But the filtering is a good point as well. And down-voting on bad questions is really cathartic! :-)
@GavinSimpson I guess the strength of the r-tag CV proposal would be that statistical questions with R implementations would have more of a home.
But R programming questions would be more out of place and would likely have to go to r-tag on SO.
So still a split, but into 2 pieces instead of 3.
 
@JorisMeys Yeah I'm worried about the 3-way split as well....
 
Which is exactly what it will be, unless the mods at CV allow the off-topic questions that are not allowed on SO.
On the other hand, I've never seen one site where there wasn't a disagreement with the mods. Honestly, the mods here at SO do go quite a mile to please us. Their decision does not have to be final.
 
@JorisMeys Yes, but really truly a lot of the more interesting questions do get closed, and a lot of the questions that don't get closed are officially off-topic. Which means it's only a matter of time before a new mod with a different philosophy comes in and all heck breaks loose.
 
We'll see where the flock walks. In that respect, I'm more of a sheep than a leader. My idea is to help people out and learn in the meantime, without having to answer the same questions a thousand times (as is the case on R Help...)
 
9:28 AM
@gsk3 Same here, that is my greatest reservation
@JorisMeys Thanks for the edit on the sweep answer. Must be half asleep still
 
Guessed something like that. I had enough coffee :-)
 
9:49 AM
mornings
so, lets see if we can get something launched from Area 51 and if enough people like it then great, otherwise we'll hope to push most R questions towards CV with an R tag? Only anything that really is about programming and could apply to any language should go to SO. Yup?
3
@GavinSimpson do you want to start the process?
 
Yepp.
 
great. coffee time.
 
@Spacedman How can something that is really about programming in R apply to any language? Most languages don't even have an apply...
 
10:05 AM
@Spacedman I'll knock something together and circulate
 
@JorisMeys I think they'd be rare cases. general questions about algorithms etc.
 
@Spacedman So about all the programming questions in R would move to CV then? Or to the new site?
 
@JorisMeys The new site seems like a better fit.
Person 2 comes along with a question about how to loop over their different model specifications -> new site
Person 1 comes along with a question about installing R -> New site
Person 3 comes along with a question about why their Wilcoxon signed rank test returns a p-value less than .4 if the coefficient matrix is yadda yadda -> CV
Person 4 comes along with a question about different types of OO programming, and uses R as an example -> SO
 
Where would "Why does R give a different answer to SAS?" questions go?
 
@Spacedman CV I'd think, since the answer likely has to do with different statistical interpretations.
 
10:17 AM
person 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 , 9 , 10, 11 and 13 come with a question that can be answered with any form of ddply, apply or so. person 12 and 14 to 26 come with a question about plot formatting, and the other 74 from the hundred have a question about how to get some clever data selection, which can - in half of the cases - be answered with apply and the other half with a vectorization
 
interpretations/assumptions
@JorisMeys Those go to R-help! :-)
 
So basically there's not one question left for SO
 
@JorisMeys Well the concern is splitting the community too thinly....
 
@gsk3 oh, the beauty of youth. Still so idealistic
 
@JorisMeys gsk3's person 4 goes to SO
 
10:18 AM
@Spacedman I concur, CV.
 
@Spacedman Do you have an example of such a question in the [r] tag? Every question about OO for example is not general, but about how to apply the general idea in R.
Frankly, I can't point out one question in the [r] tag that would stay here.
 
@JorisMeys If it's about OO in R then it's new site, otherwise SO.
 
thats why I said they'd be rare beasts. perhaps a couple per year crop up in r-help
 
@RomanLuštrik If it's about OO anywhere else but R, it's not going to be in the R tag either...
@Spacedman So basically we abandon SO. No more R questions here.
 
@JorisMeys I was under the impression that the user used R to make a point.
... in which case he or she would tag it [r].
 
10:21 AM
BTW, did anybody post a metaquestion in response to this lock? :
 
Using TeX as an example, if it's about how do to something in TeX it goes to the specific-site. If it's about whether TeX is Turing-complete, it goes to SO. At least that's my understanding.
 
31
Q: Tools for professional R developers

MarkWhat tools should a professional R developer have? what are the good utilities that can help R developers to code and debug more efficiently? what type of tools are missing? For example, what are the good IDEs, unit testing and code coverage tools, debugging packages and maybe UML modeling tool...

Otherwise I'll do it now
@gsk3 I got that point. I just want to make clear that, as in the case of Tex, that means we're abandoning SO. There are hardly Tex questions on SO, and those are mostly from people that need help but don't know the existence of Tex.stackexchange.
 
@JorisMeys Which is exactly what will happen for [r] once we get the new R.SE going.
 
175
questions tagged
tex
 
Which will be the same for a new R site : everything moves there, and we stroll SO to tell people they find better answers on the new R site. That is, if everybody here agrees. Because otherwise those questions will be answered by other people, and you have two communities
 
10:25 AM
@Spacedman But 2000 for [latex].
 
ah! 8000 in total in tex.se.com
 
one on SO and one on the new site, and that can't be the idea. The difference between latex and R is that you have far less specialists in Latex.
 
@JorisMeys I'm actually in favor of that, especially if we can migrate all the R-tag SO questions over to the new site. It prevents the 3-way split.
 
anyway, the area 51 process should help us define what its all about and gets the community interest up. can we stop arguing about it now? :) I don't see a big downside.
 
I think we won't know for sure if users from [r] tag (all 1.3k of them) here will migrate to the new site.
 
10:27 AM
actually, one big downside: I have to rewrite my UseR! talk.
 
@Spaceman I don't think anyone's arguing; I think @JorisMeys just wanted to reach consensus that we all meant to abandon the SO R tag for the most part.
@RomanLuštrik But of the 1.3k how many are actually active? Maybe 100 that actually still answer questions, if that?
 
@gsk3 I think it's even less than that. We're all on first nickname letter basis. :)
 
@spacedman as gsk3 said
0
Q: A +30 question closed as not constructive although there is much agreement it should be kept open?

Joris MeysThis question was closed and locked by @Lasse V Karlsen with the remark "open a meta question on it and if we can reach agreement, it will be reopened" I'd like to point out that this question had numerous upvotes and was actually flagged to be put as a community wiki , which is something comple...

 
@JorisMeys Thanks Joris.
 
10:52 AM
@JorisMeys Total BS, this is by no means a polling Q. The SO FAQ clearly states that questions pertaining "software tools commonly used by programmers" are valid questions.
 
Ooh, a stata/r question... where should that live in the brave new world?
 
@Spacedman Except it's not...I was considering removing the R tag since it has nothing to do with R....
 
I suppose R serves to give an example of how they want it to work, but just pasting "25 July 1982 12:34:56" would do as well...
 
11:15 AM
Boy, the meta question by Joris sure became lively.
 
11:28 AM
Yuck. Maybe we should just do all our R discussion in YouTube comment threads.
2
 
@RomanLuštrik grmbl, finally somebody got me angry on SO.
 
Ugh. I really think the answer to this is allowing communities to moderate themselves. But that seems to have been shot down almost instantly by Bill the Lizard.
 
11:57 AM
Who is Bill the Lizard?
 
@Spacedman a nice (and I don't mean that ironically) moderator of the SO team. But none of the SO moderator members have actually any idea about what R really is, and see it as Yet Another Programming Language.
 
@JorisMeys I really think the problem is exactly that: "none of the SO moderator members have actually any idea about what R really is, and see it as Yet Another Programming Language."
 
but they'll never admit that :-)
so OK, I'm officially won for an R.stackexchange site.
 
@JorisMeys I think short of having R-tag specific moderators on SO, more then ever the reaction to the meta.SO question has convinced me it's the only way to go.
 
12:18 PM
@Spacedman working already on that area51 proposal? Otherwise I'm going to fire one up.
Or am I going too fast here?
 
@JorisMeys I was going to have a stab. I need to look at the procedure, but thought it best to knock up a case first, get feedback and then go to the actual proposal.
 
I am going too fast. This should be thought over pretty well (name should be at least 3 letters, clear description of the proposal, ...)
@GavinSimpson What did they say about great minds? :) Maybe we can have a separate chat site for discussion? Or mailing? Or whatever?

Rproposal

Discussing the area51 proposal for an R related site
So, if needed, it is there. And now I'm going for a coffee and turn off this thing for a while. My brains starts getting foggy, so something's brewing that shouldn't be brewing.
 
12:54 PM
'morning gents
 
morning JD
@GavinSimpson : very nice answer. My hat, he departs respectfully from my head.
 
Good afternoon.
 
Afternoon all
 
I am reverse engineering mda:::predict.fda into Excel. Ugh.
 
Good luck...
 
1:06 PM
It's just one case, so could have been worse.
 
1:27 PM
@GavinSimpson You didn't include an [r] tag in your question. Taking R == CV for granted, eh? :)
 
Lasse is going to reopen the Tools Question. Can we edit it to remove the subjective elements and show that we are good SO citizens, and see how it fares?
 
It looks reopened already. Except that it's missing a number of comments, at least the rather irritated ones that I posted. :)
Maybe I'm misreading it. got a lot to catch up on.
I'm a bit disappointed in the logic behind eliminating "poll questions". I suppose it is irritating because programmers are used to thinking that there's a right/best answer. Sometimes that is very subjective.
 
@GavinSimpson seems legit that way. I hope it stands
 
I've edited the Q now. Feel free to improve as you see fit.
 
1:53 PM
I've added a bit more, but apparently the first close vote has been cast again. Some people are determined to get this question out of the way...
 
Ha, it already has a "not constructive" close flag.
It's not about the question anymore, it has become a Holy war. :)
 
I just answered a question using recursion AND function programming high order functions. I should just stop for the day while I'm feeling quasi smart and stuff. It's a nice relief from feeling stupid while reading Python code.
 
@RomanLuštrik It certainly feels like that. Well, anybody an idea for a name for the area51 proposal? R.stackexchange is not going to make it, as it's 2 letters short...
 
Quick, open a bottle of Whiskey, JD needs to pour out some ideas for the site prefix name.
 
@JorisMeys Taking a hint from gnu: RnS - R is not S, where S <- c(SPSS, STATA, SAS)
useR.stackexchange.com
 
1:59 PM
Maybe ideas from twitter: rstats, or maybe ruser, or maybe rproject.
 
RiP was my idea : R isnota Programming language.
 
I was looking for some synonym of "forum" or "meeting place" that had an R in it, but came up short
 
Unfortunately pandemonium has no R in it.
 
arsk :)
"Got a R question? Just Arsk!"
 
ouch
:-)
 
2:05 PM
Maybe the domain can have a common R function name. Like sample.stackexchange.com. We will then have time to think of a "big" title and extra domain name (like CV had).
 
I like arsk... hast that je ne sais Engrish feel to it
 
mongeR
as in data monger
 
how about weHaveDataFramesAndYouBitchesDont
 
raskall...
 
I like that one :)
 
2:08 PM
bigr?
 
isn't that a package?
 
too confusing with Dirk's littler
so I just kinda jumped into the middle of this without any idea of what's going on. You guys are discussing an R specific Stack Exchange?
 
@JDLong It boils down to that, yes.
 
because the SO mods are religious zealots with rules that seem oppressive to our community?
get that jack boot off my neck
 
Yepp.
 
2:12 PM
hmm... ok.. my $0.02 -> I get annoyed at them too and rage against the rules which I find stupid. However, you should view a decision to split the R Q/A community with the same sobriety you'd approach forking an open source project. It has much of the same consequences.
 
@JDLong It would be a migration, not a split.
 
Now I'm subject to cognitive bias on the issue; I was one of the guys who vested a bit of energy in bootstrapping the R body of q/a here.
 
plus its a bit of a merge of qs that go into CV and qs that go into SO at the moment.
 
yeah, I see your point
so a forum for detailed R innerds type questions?
and by forum I mean stackexchange site
I'm trying to understand the value as I ponder the costs. Costs here being the implications of fragmentation of the community.
also costs in terms of difficulty for new users to find the site
 
2:17 PM
@JDLong I had the same idea. Then the mods considered Hadleys answer argumentative, subjective and now also "invalid in a year". So I'm much in favor of R-knowledgeable mods. As that will never be the case on SO, I am now officially in favor of a new stackexchange site.
2
Plus, it allows labels like "sig-finance", "sig-geo", ... and can function much more like a replacement for the current mailing lists.
 
gotcha... sorry I'm slow. Been busy and not kept up with the room.
I'd LOVE to see the entire mailing list migrated to this format
 
And not just r-help, other r-sig-* lists, too.
 
where was Hadley's flagged answer?
 
Me too, and I guess a new stackexchange site will facilitate that more than SO ever can. We have enough body here now to get things going.
 
I'm coming around :)
 
2:19 PM
It's the whole question. See
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6796490/tools-for-professional-r-developers for the question and
1
Q: A +30 question closed as not constructive although there is much agreement it should be kept open?

Joris MeysThis question was closed and locked by a moderator with the remark "open a meta question on it and if we can reach agreement, it will be reopened" I'd like to point out that this question had numerous upvotes and was actually flagged to be put as a community wiki, which is something completely d...

for the whole discussion about it
 
Can you believe it, some people downvoted the question. This is evidence that it's not a question war anymore.
 
@RomanLuštrik I think half the problem is that experienced SO people have seen other types of questions like this in other languages fall apart, and so they just kneejerk attack them.
It's ridiculous. Although I think the question would be improved if it left out editors, since that's covered elsewhere and is less useful.
 
I'm reading the meta... ugh.
 
Poor @JDLong...woke up and stepped into a whole pile of nasty!
 
as a social scientist I find this kinda fascinating
this is a bit of a 'cultural norm' type question. And code engineers tend to be VERY literal and specific. The R guys are saying, "hey this works for our community" while the engineers are reiterating "the spec"
2
and thus, the impasse.
that's my meta-meta analysis :)
 
2:32 PM
I'm sitting in front of the house, giving my 90 y.o. grandma a tour of youtube (Trooper from Iron Maiden for starters). :)
 
i kinda want to comment or answer on the Meta site but everything I can think of that hasn't already been said sounds like, "You guys suck so we're threatening to take our ball and go home" and I HATE sounding like that
so I'll just ruminate on things
 
Reading through comments, I can't understand this guy "Won't". Then I see he is a moderator on meta-SO. With a particularly self-aggrandizing photo in his user page. Yay for quality.
 
@JDLong I've done some self-censuring to cut that part out of my responses as well. As @Iterator noticed, at least some of the responses there do not give a strong hint of maturity of the person behind them.
 
Shall we call the mods at their own game. Vote to close this for example:
137
Q: Should I learn C?

Justin StandardOriginal Question: Should I Learn C? In the theme of the stackoverflow podcast, here's a fun question: should I learn C? I expect Jeff & Joel will have something to say on this. Some info on my background: Primarily a Java programmer on "enterprisy" systems. Favorite languages: python, s...

Far more subjective than the R Q we have been discussing.
With the people here we could have this closed in a few minutes. Justifiably if I read the sentiments on Meta correctly.
 
@GavinSimpson I love it! We should go on a flagging campaign. Since supposedly the only reason all the violating questions haven't been closed is that the modes somehow haven't noticed.
 
2:39 PM
be cautious. In the words of a great mentor, "Don't be pissy. Even if they deserve it" I'm concerned it would make us look petty
 
Flag it. Don't close it.
 
@gsk3 Let's not over do it, but we can make a point.
 
I wasn't being serious, but the idea is tempting.
But the more sour grapes we have the more trouble we'll have getting the Area51 proposal through.
 
@JorisMeys In my experience, many programmers have a hard time wrapping their head around R. Many look at tasks to be done and tools in which to do them. When their skills are developed to use certain tools, then they judge tools by the match to their skills. R lacks something they use (and they don't use things R has), so it gets denigrated. With time and exposure, one learns to use many tools to solve many problems.
 
it kinda makes me melancholy to have sunk so much effort into the SO R tag and have the mods screw it all up. The mods are supposed to protect the community, not wreck it.
 
2:43 PM
@GavinSimpson voted.
 
Unfortunately, SO folks (even moderators) have limited experience, and it takes quite a lot of insight to realize one's own limitations, especially among developers. However, people who employ developers or manage them have little difficulty seeing limitations - but then the goal is to address those limitations...
 
@JDLong Unfortunately, I think the mods have or rather their dogmatic adherence to the FAQ has. I will wholeheartedly be putting my efforts behind an Area 51 site now.
 
Will we be able to migrate current Qs with the [r] tag to the new site?
 
@RomanLuštrik Unfortunately not. We'll have to start anew. That's what kept me very long in the camp of "nah, don't bother."
 
@gsk3 Who has time to participate in a holy war? Far better to control the armaments.
 
2:50 PM
@RomanLuštrik I doubt it. We'd have to flag them and justify the flags and get a mod to migrate. We have to take a long-term view if we go with the new site idea
 
I'm not clear on why questions cannot be migrated.
 
They can be, just like they migrate it to CV (and back), but it's a manual task
 
We need a mod in SO to be able to do that. and the SO mods won't migrate questions they deem as "programming questions", because it loses traffic
 
@Iterator They can, but we'd have to have a very good argument as to why they should be migrated and I'm not sure we could do that for 5000+ Q
 
A long term view is what separates the elite users in the R tag on SO from the SO moderators. If you've been around the R community and non-R developers long enough, you can see it's going to be years before they can play together.
@JorisMeys Good point. Anyway, the R community is growing and migrating to SO. It won't be long before the new site has better stuff anyway.
 
2:53 PM
We have to set up good on-topic and off-topic questions in the area51 proposal, so quite some of the questions will be duplicated on the new one
 
That won't be hard. We'll just list the questions according to upvotes/downvotes and copy/paste those. :)
 
@RomanLuštrik Plus half of the high-vote questions we can legitimately flag as not being good questions according to SO standards anyway.
 
@JorisMeys They closed it.
 
@GavinSimpson They have little choice doing so :-)
I changed my opinion on this question : meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/100541/…
 
@JorisMeys At least they did follow and not ignore.
@JorisMeys Yes, just noticed and upvoted
 
3:02 PM
I reckon the TeX site is the closest model for and R site. After all, TeX is just as Turing-complete as C, Python, or R, it just happens to have typesetting as a side-effect, as R has statistics...#
 
@Spacedman I'd say so too. And the questions on TeX go far beyond "how do I do this in tex?" It's actually quite an interesting read over there.
 
Who knew this discussion would be so much fun. Everyone's time is valuable, and for that reason moving to a different site manages expertise, site goals, user interests, and technology constraints/capabilities in a better way than any other with the lowest cost. Improving SO itself to achieve same outcome requires changes in moderation policy and moderation technology (e.g. topic specific moderation).
Of course, moderation policy could be improved, but most people here don't yet have the expertise to frame reproducible policy guidelines. And the people with such expertise not only aren't in charge, but don't have the time to go through the whole education process just for one topic.
ciao amici
 
@GavinSimpson They closed the tools for developing question again too.
 
@JorisMeys Unbelievable.
Didn't Lance vote to re-open it? Dude needs to make up his mind.
 
3:17 PM
@JorisMeys That was Robert Harvey. He closed the C question so fair is fair.
 
@GavinSimpson I noticed.
 
We are on to a loosing battle with these sorts of Qs here. The SO people have had their say and been quite clear about the position. That is fine. It is their site and we have to abide by the house rules.
@whuber (on CV meta) has commented that he doesn't see CV as the place for all R-related Qs. And I agree. So let's try to take forward the Area 51 proposal and work to build an R community there.
 
A different way to move forward is to break the question down, reformulate it, and post it anew.
 
Its just such a shame that all this lovely Q+A software isn't released so people can build their own communities...
 
It is easy enough for people to harp on one question and debate it until the cows come home. It is on the radar and the debate centers on picayune matters and reshapes things in weird ways.
I've got to go, but I see two fronts: a new site and a resolution to the aims of this particular question. Advancing a new site is easy enough, even without this question: there are simply non-programmatic questions for R, and that necessitates a different site with different moderators.
Advancing this question can be done without carrying the question itself. Eventually something will get into a community wiki status, I presume, though I have no knowledge of what that really means on SO.
 
3:28 PM
Actually, I'm much in favor of getting something like this for the whole collection of mailing lists on R. Doing this on stackoverflow is a possibility (and the easiest one), but the ultimate control stays on the StackExchange owners. A free version of this would be preferrable, but it should be hosted somewhere and I don't see that happen if it's not a combined effort of some big players in the R field...
 
I've mostly just observed this kerfuffle, but I have a quick question:
Is the appeal of an Area 51 site (in part) that it would retain the SO format, but involve moderators from within the R community and hence have more appropriate moderating norms?
 
wowzer. askbot looks rather toooo similar!
 
@Spacedman there are lots of open source alternatives to StackExchange. question2answer.org for example. But to think that the software is the crux of what makes StackOverflow or StackExchange work is to grossly overestimate the role of software and underestimate the role of community management. It's unfortunate that excessive "community management" is the problem faced by the R community on SO
@joran yes, that's my understanding
if it were possible, I'd prefer to see [r] stay in SO but get moderators from our own community
 
This one looks feasible too : lampcms.com
@joran Indeed. Also to extend the questions that can be asked. Teaching of R for example, tools for developing R, and general discussions on R that go beyond strictly programming questions. As @Gavin said : SO is the boss, SO makes the rules.
 
@JDLong Yeah, setting up our own site with something like that is definitely the noocular option.
 
3:41 PM
if a non-stackexchange site is set up, there will be fragmentation because some folks will still ask R questions here and they can't be migrated. So setting up a total competitor is analogous to a community fork. I'm very uncomfortable with that at this point. I think we'll lose more than we gain.
 
@JDLong I was more thinking of integration of the format we have into the whole R community, as a gradual replacement for the sig-lists and the nabble-threads. If you want to make this attempt be carried by the R developing community, it should be more extendible and controllable than stackexchange allows.
 
@JorisMeys that's a good point
 
But I understand your fears, it will indeed be forking a community
 
I also think it will be REALLY HARD to get the hard core r list folks in a new community
I know how hard it was to get folks here...
and very few of the r lists folks come here at all
 
@JDLong For sure! No way the r-devel list will ever get on a SO format, and that shouldn't be needed either.
 
3:43 PM
even though it would behoove them to get the newbie questions from r-help migrated to here
behaviors are MUCH harder to hack than code :)
 
But on the other hand, most people get on the list through the official R site. It lists only the lists, not any other community. If r-project.org could contain a QA site (or link to it) instead of placing the lists in front so prominently, that would change over time I think.
 
@JorisMeys lots of qs on R-devel are programming qs, and could easily go to SE sites.
 
@Spacedman Same goes for ecology and geo lists that I follow.
 
@RomanLuštrik Which brought me to my wild idea. It's a wild idea, I know, and I cannot even start to set that up before january 2012, as I'm busy doing other stuff...
which I should start doing. This has taken a big part of my day... darn!
 
What's the idea?
 
3:51 PM
go wild man!
All R users should move to Vancouver and live in a commune?
All R users should write questions on postcards and stick them in mailboxes addressed to Prof Ripley, Oxford?
 
The last one would be amusing, to say the least.
 
@RomanLuštrik As I've been Ripleyed on the net before, I have no intention of seeing our beloved prof. show up at my door with a baseballbat, thankyouverymuch...
 
how about we call the SE site RRRiplyr.stackexchange.com?
2
 
@RomanLuštrik The wild idea is to have an SO-like interface to an own QA site that is officially owned by R and part of r-project.org (although it can be hosted on another server).
 
I don't think there's a chance of that happening. I see him program an R script o swing a bat in your general direction, but I don't think he'd make the expense of paying you a visit.
 
4:02 PM
@RomanLuštrik he's expect his expenses paid. Senior Profs are fussy like that
 
@Spacedman The name would suit it, as most questions would be about ggplot anyway.
 
hhadley2.stackexchange.com
and in related news, I'm on my new Mac Book Pro! Yeah! Shiny hardware FTW!
 
What's a mac book pro? LMGTFM
Oh, just a regular overpriced piece of white hardware. :P
 
no it's aluminum :)
 
4:19 PM
Tip of the day. Stick to R, not Excel when doing flexible discriminant analysis. Except if the client will pay for the reverse engineering.
 
@Andrie Well, that would be a Tip of the day at Excel.stackexchange.com... ;)
 
@Andrie What's Excel?
:-)
 
All that exposure to Excel has polluted my brain. I think I shall go for a run in the London smog to clear it all out.
@gsk3 If you haven't heard of it, I am definitely not going to be the one to tell you what it is. I have a conscience and a set of moral values, you know!
 
@Andrie where's your office in the city?
I'll be over on Threadneedle street in a couple of weeks.
 
I work from home. Actually in Surrey, not strictly speaking in London, but still inside zone 6
 
4:26 PM
ah gotcha.
 
@JDLong Great. It will be fab to meet up for a beer or something.
 
I'm in Dublin for most of the week then just a blast through London on Thursday. Fly out Friday.
 
Do you have plans for Thursday evening?
 
@JDLong you n Dublin for the ISI conf?
 
I do have dinner plans on Thurs. Our team has a new hire and we're going out to dinner.
@Spacedman no, just work. Our dev team is in Dublin
 
4:28 PM
ah okay. big stats conf there 21-26th aug
 
@Andrie breakfast Friday or a late drinks on Wed might work.
I'm not sure about geography and all that though. I don't know London well at all
 
Drinks / dinner on Wednesday sounds like a plan. Are you talking about the 17th?
 
Yes... but it will be late. I'm flying in from Dub. Flying into LHR and then car to The City
 
What time is your flight?
 
sorry.. LCY... and I just checked.. it's mighty late: 20:50
 
4:34 PM
OK. That doesn't leave much time for me to get a train back home afterwards.
Perhaps breakfast Friday, then?
I'll try to arrange some other meetings in London on the Friday, in which case I don't mind coming in quite early.
 
I fly out of LCY at 9AM on Friday
 
My goodness, but your time is valuable!
 
ha! Yeah I'm flying over on my wife's birthday... that one will cost me
 
It's open again
32
Q: What core packages should a professional R developer have, and why?

MarkWhat are the specific utilities that can help R developers code and debug more efficiently? I'm looking to set up an R development environment, and would like an overview of the tools that would be useful to me in crafting a unit testing infrastructure with code coverage, debugging, generation ...

 
@Andrie I think my schedule is a bit tight. But no worries, I suspect I'll be back in a few months. I hope next time we can have an informal R drinking group
 
4:38 PM
@JDLong OK, that makes sense...
Later...
 
@GavinSimpson Yeah, that vote-to-reopen thing is nice :-). But sssht... we don't want to draw any attention to it...
@Gavin : On a sidenote: would it be feasible to discuss a new format for the help lists on r-devel? Or am I shooting beyond my range here?
 
@JorisMeys Robert Harvey himself reopened, and Shoq9, another mod, did quite a bit of editing.
@JorisMeys No, I don' think so, go for it. Key thing would be to get input on, if we were starting from scratch today, what format would a new R-Help take? say..?
 
Darn true! They took it at heart apparently.
@GavinSimpson uff... I was really thinking at getting something SO like as a QA-site on r-project.org, be it from an open source variant or using the stackexchange sources.
 
Cant you guys at least wait until I've done my talk at UseR!? At this rate it'll be out of date before I leave for Warwick!
 
:D :D :D
What an ironic twist of events. :)
 
4:46 PM
this would allow every sig to be a tag. Bugs could be reported like they're done on the meta (although I doubt the current R core team is waiting for that to happen...)
 
An R instance of askbot (aRskbot?) would be interesting.
 
@Spacedman Something like that, provided it is carried by and integrated in the R organisation. Hosting can be done on a server from a willing partner, like happens now with the mailing lists etc, but it should really be something from R itself.
as we have the SO access from within R, that would be a nice add-on for the help searches : search the QA site.
 
@JorisMeys That would be great, to have a unifying site and access to all resources without being subscribed to every list imaginable, with different passwords, possibly email accounts... R globalization if you will.
 
@RomanLuštrik My point exactly
 
I think @JDLong mentioned the advantages of leveraging SE though...
 
4:49 PM
@Spacedman the ability to migrate from SO is very useful. To do that the site must be part of the SE network
 
I think a blessed link from r-project to a "forum" (possibly from the top of the page) would go a long way.
 
Some might argue about not having 'ownership' of postings.
 
@Spacedman yup. if it's "official" it's gotta be off of SE netowrk
 
@Spacedman and the odd chance that the company behind SE changes or goes broke, and you lose everything.
 
but the "fork" implications of that give me pause
@JorisMeys that's not totally accurate. All content is CC licensed
 
4:51 PM
@JDLong content yes. But who's hosting the content?
Can we extract the content and keep it safe for future use?
 
i don't guess I get your point. The site could go away, and would have to be hosted elsewhere, but the content can't
 
Can we have an [R-faq-7.31] tag...
 
yes... there are a few projects to archive and mirror the content from SE sites
I think on SO they provide a data dump monthly in easy to use format
of course the API allows sucking content out at will
 
So you just need a different API around the content you extracted from SO then...
 
yeah... I'm actually thinking one might seed a new site with SO questions/answers if the attribution was done properly... damn, you guys are really working on me :)
I'm feeling light headed. I'm going to lunch
 
4:54 PM
I get the impression that there'd be quite a lot of time overhead associated with operating our own (independent) R Q&A server. R-forge has slow progress because the people running aren't dedicated to making it run, they have day jobs.
By "dedicated" I mean in the sense of their sole responsibility, not that they aren't dedicated.
 
@GavinSimpson My biggest fear as wellL Although I think that having that own independent Q&A server should be less involving than R-forge, no?
 
@GavinSimpson yes... I think the software problem is trivial. It's the meatwear aspect of a community that is really, really hard
and what happens when instead of some mod who we don't give a shit about, the person who's arguing with us on how the community should be run is rriply2 himself.
 
@JDLong I notice the clear absence of eg hadley, Joshua and Dirk in these kind of discussions, even if they do read them... I doubt Prof. Ripley will ever move away from his mailing list :)
 
@JorisMeys you're right... I was jumping to a corner solution.
I'd love to hear the view from Hadley, Dirk, Joshua, etc. And, more importantly, some of the R-help folks who are very active but not on SO
 
Me too...
 
5:02 PM
I can pick the brain of the R Finance guys here in Chicago.
we need to have a meetup anyway :)
 
And me. Hadley is at the Joint Stats meeting IIRC so may be otherwise engaged. Haven't seen Dirk or Shane hereabouts for a while, but they still operate on SO.
and @Spacedman's lightening talk at UseR! in a couple of weeks should help focus the debate some more.
 
shane was around yesterday in here. I've spoken with him recently as well. Dirk's not doing chat much probably to avoid the time sink
 
I'm going to let this brew for a while, I actually have to run and will have to explain to my boss what I've been doing all day.
@GavinSimpson so wish I could be there. Budgets, budgets,... bah!
 
ha.. good point. Let's ruminate on this. worthy of discussion for sure
 
anyway, duty calls, see you guys later.
 
5:05 PM
later @JorisMeys
 
Perhaps we should keep our powder dry until we have been able to take a sounding from other parts of the community and allow for people to report back. In the meantime, post good Qs for the proposal in the Rproposal room: chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/2055/rproposal
Ciao
 
good thinking @GavinSimpson
ciao
cheers friends. I really do need lunch.
 
hometime
 
5:35 PM
They are trying to close again. 3 close votes. Lets see what happens and be ready to reopen if it gets closed again
32
Q: What core packages should a professional R developer have, and why?

MarkWhat are the specific utilities that can help R developers code and debug more efficiently? I'm looking to set up an R development environment, and would like an overview of the tools that would be useful to me in crafting a unit testing infrastructure with code coverage, debugging, generation ...

 
5:52 PM
@GavinSimpson So tiring fighting this off.
 
6:20 PM
@GavinSimpson @gsk3 I think continuing to gripe over close/reopen issues is counterproductive and only generates ill will
I think it's clear that the folks who want to close these questions have a solid case given the local norms on SO for moderating
and the issue is that the [r] community would like to operate under a system with it's own mod norms
 
@joran We aren't griping, we are trying to do as several mods have suggested and improve the Q. I have posted a new Answer, and asked a user to improve or delete their Answer. A mod has since deleted it.
 
@GavinSimpson Perhaps
 
@joran Part of the problem is petulant users from elsewhere on SO not allowing us the time to revise.
 
griping was the wrong term...just meant that it seems that if the best way forward is to create something new, it doesn't seem worthwhile to sink time in fighting things here...
sorry hit return too soon
 
6:36 PM
@joran Agreed. See you on chat/Rproposal :-)
 
JD has a good point. JSM is going on. People on Twitter should light up the #rstats #jsm2011 twitter hashtags and get JSM attendees flooding SO with support for a new R.SE site. :D
It's like 5000 people.
@Andrie Why not just pass stuff between R and Excel using RExcel/DCOM? Done in 15 minutes.
 
7:03 PM
@Iterator It's because the client has a requirement not to install any new software. The Excel sheet needs to work stand-alone.
 
8:02 PM
@joran don't feel bad about answering that question. The only reason I knew it was a duplicate was because I answered it before (and have since closed similar questions as duplicates).
 
@JoshuaUlrich Thxs. I primarily use SO as a way to learn by answering, which means I sometimes leap in to practice answering things before checking for dups.
 
 
3 hours later…
11:03 PM
"In other news for R 2.14, Tierney says that the new version may also make transparent use of parallel processing for some operations on multi-core machines." -- I bet Windows users will be left out in the rain. :/
 
@RomanLuštrik I just looked at the sources for dist() and the dependency seems to be presence of OpenMP at compile time. That is multi-platform
 

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