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6:00 PM
@ton.yeung I don't know what kind of training I would do. They all seem overpriced and underwhelming
 
Drat, why does back-tick not always work for me?
 
@JeroldHaas multiline
 
@ton.yeung such as?
 
@Pheonixblade9 nah, and tbh i dont like estimating in hours. and i like to not assign out the whole sprint at the beginning
 
@drch you up for a TFS q in wpf?
 
6:00 PM
leave em all unassigned and pick up new ones as you complete old ones
 
/me slaps the post
 
@drch we don't estimate in hours, we estimate in points. XS, S, M, L, XL
and we commit to a sprint as a team... i.e. "the team will finish these tickets", not "it will take x hours"
 
Seems no matter how many line feeds I add, it breaks.
 
do the shirt sizes correspond to numbers?
 
double
 
6:02 PM
Those aren't shirt sizes. There's no XXL.
 
2-4-8-16-32
@KendallFrey sorry, we didn't take your mom into account when we were setting up our ticketing system
 
@Pheonixblade9 Fibonacci is spinning in his grave
 
@ton.yeung yeah. I'm trying to avoid doing the one because it's a shit sandwich that our PM said he would do.
the others people are already working on
 
@JeroldHaas No matter how many? Try 0
 
except for one ticket that I've been waiting 2 weeks on a code review from my lead for
 
6:03 PM
When we finish our sprint work, we add more tasks into the sprint backlog
 
unfortunately it's 11am
 
one of the leads who left firmly advocated only t-shirt sizing for work items, I'm inclined to agree
 
I should ask my PM for more work... but I know he is going to say "can you do this ticket that is going to make you hate your fucking life?"
@TomW yeah, it is the right amount of thought to put into a short work item
"will this take 1 hour, 1 day, or 1 week?" is the general estimate
 
@Pheonixblade9 most places ive worked at use fibbonacci for points and some also use the shirt sizes for complexity
 
@Pheonixblade9 you can give yourself a free pass by immediately commenting "fuck me, this is going to be complicated"
 
6:04 PM
i think using powers of 2 gets to big to quick
 
set that in the manager's mind as the first idea, and they won't question it later
 
We strictly go by Fibonacci-hours
 
@TomW it's more like... it's a testing ticket and an engineer really should not be doing it
 
we only had 1,2,3,5,8 and 8's were rare. anything bigger was broken down
 
ah
test it by writing unit tests :P
 
6:05 PM
can't
 
Though I think it would be nice to have numbers between 20, 40, and 100
 
it's testing if something will work in production
 
@drch Your 8 is our 20.
 
so... 1) I hate going to production systems, it makes me nervous. (especially this one since it is 2 different EXTERNAL production systems, not just ours) 2) I hate functional testing
hence why I can't unit test it
@ton.yeung when things go boom, we lose money
 
@Pheonixblade9 why do you need to go onto the production system?
automate that shiz yo
step one of deployment should not be "remote desktop to the production webserver"
unless step2 is "run the script"
and even then...
 
6:08 PM
@drch because. I'm testing how our system integrates with 2 other companies' systems
and there are processes external to me that I do not control
basically, I send data to one system. We wait until that data is manually curated over to another system, then I need to check if that data is there
 
@ReedCopsey may be johan larsson :P
 
it's a fucking shit sandwich
 
yeah kinda sounds it
we have something similar going on with a third party system that is absolute crap
 
yeah
annoying thing is
I've kicked ass and gotten my work done really fast
 
THAT'LL LEARN YA
 
6:10 PM
and half the time I'm blocked on releasing tickets because my lead takes a month to code review shit because he's too busy
 
If I were running a project, I would have a cast-iron rule: You may not make any changes on the production system that cannot be automated and run on the test system as well
The test system and the production system must be identical. Bitwise, if possible.
 
well, this isn't a change
this is my suggestion of a workaround to see if something will even WORK
 
@TomW There is an easy way to do that. Do you know what it is?
 
@Pheonixblade9 we usually make code reviews more peer review than a lead review. once 2 people have approved it, it gets marked as ready for QA
 
6:11 PM
@Pheonixblade9 That's not it. Try again.
 
SHA SHA SHA
 
cloning VMs?
 
@drch it is peer review. He just happens to be the peer that needs to review it, because he understands that part of the system.
 
The answer is: use the same machine.
>:D
 
stab stab stab
 
6:13 PM
just slap a beta sticker on it and let the users test it
2
 
it's alright, that was just the development Kenda....oh.
 
bleed drip bleed
 
@TomW He's dead, Brutus.
 
Tell me 'bout tha rabbits, George
 
<<reference lost>>
 
6:14 PM
my favorite commit comment at the last place i was working at was "oops - checked in the production connection string"
 
@TomW aka nre
 
<<not really helping>>
 
NullReferenceException. As in, invalid reference
 
oh
 
My jokes are loved by psychic people worldwide.
 
6:18 PM
How do you guys feel about nested classes? I don't see them very often, and I'm kind of wondering why.
 
@ginkner I use them frequently
but only for implementations of interfaces being returned by the containing class
I never expose them in the public API
 
@ReedCopsey so thier not public
ok
That definatly makes sense
 
they're great for factored types, especially
 
wut?
to factored types
 
!!define factored types
 
6:20 PM
@KendallFrey My pocket dictionary just isn't good enough for you.
 
you sometimes need them in things like ORMs eg when you need a class to have access to private members of another class
 
@KendallFrey Has it exactly...though I don't know what language that's from
If it's something I can google easily I'll just go do that
 
> What do you mean I can't access your private members? We're in the same class!
 
heyoo
 
<- just realized "Access your private members" is suggestive
 
6:21 PM
your descendants shouldnt access your privates either
 
and be careful who you make your InternalsVisibleTo
 
The dirty thing is, reflection allows you to see all the members you want.
 
Mirrors, man. They make you see things
 
@KendallFrey A type that provides a facade over a set of lower level functionality
 
6:23 PM
just talked to the PM... there's a DIFFERENT production testing task that needs to be done. Thankfully one that I actually worked on, so I know what's going on
still a PITA, but not as bad
 
And thin wrappers aren't much better than public exposure.
 
@ReedCopsey Oh, yes. Love those.
 
(can't read all of it unless you've got the actual book, but they often can expose IDisposable to help close/release)
 
@Pheonixblade9 Why are you hating on several different types of bread in many Mediterranean, Balkan and Middle Eastern cuisines?
 
6:24 PM
same book, but you can see more of the chapter
 
Is it possible with .NET Web Services to throw an exception, regardless of return type, that is simple like:
EPERM - Permissions invalid.
 
I get it...but I don't get why it's called "Factored"
 
I've tried :
throw new SoapException("EPERM", SOapException.ServerFaultCode,"Permission Invalid")
but it still gives a full stack trace
 
@RyanTernier you have to do throw ex; to kill the stack trace. throwing a new exception will generate a stack trace for you
 
I just want that one liner as the only error returned.
 
6:25 PM
throw new SoapException("Soap dropped.");
 
Tried, still getting a stack
 
throw ex; gives you a stack? huh?
 
and you can't have 1 argument with soap exception
 
@RyanTernier You can in my example.
 
@ginkner From the mathematics term factorization - or breaking into "factors", where each "factor" is effectively a step required to produce a result. A "factored type" is a type that's entire purpose is to control the steps required to perform some complex operation
 
6:26 PM
I'm generating these exceptions PB, so i'm doing :
if(!Authorized){
throw new SoapException(...);
}
 
@RyanTernier but why omit the stack trace? just change whatever is outputting it to not show it?
 
@ReedCopsey that makes some sense, at least
 
Client cannot see it. Our requirements state that the client only sees 3 words: EPERM - Invalid Permissions
 
@ginkner The key is that they typically have a "start" and, more importantly, a very specific "end" operation that's required, so wrapping them in an IDisposable implementation can significantly improve their usability
 
so don't show it to the client
user.Display(ex.Message);
 
6:28 PM
This is from a webservice
no UI
 
response.statuscode = 500;
response.write("eperm - invalid permissions");
 
Unfortunately, soap is a little more complicated.
I've only used soap once or twice.
 
@RyanTernier I would have thought that the formatting of an exception for display is up to the client
 
huehuehue
 
@RyanTernier gotcha. Then just null out the InnerException ?
 
6:29 PM
you'll always transmit a soap fault, if there is an exception
 
public class SecretException : System.Exception {
   public override StackTrace { get { return string.empty; } }
}
 
and IIRC a fault is a fault
@drch I hate you.
 
@TomW Whoa, really?
 
if(!Authorized)
{
    SoapException ex = new SoapException(...);
    ex.InnerException = null;
    ex.StackTrace = null;
    throw ex;
}
 
InnerException and StackTrace are read only
 
6:30 PM
 
Are you looking to control the serialization of the fault down the wire?
 
throwing it resets the stack trace
 
and inner exception is null unless you pass it
 
and what drch said
and again
 
You're gonna need a custom WCF formatter that blats the content of the fault element, I reckon
 
6:31 PM
asmx - not wcf
 
try {
  Stuff();
}
catch (Exception ex) {
   Response.StatusCode = 500;
   Response.Write(ex.Message);
}
 
That works, but then i need to return an object, or I need to throw
 
HNNNNGH.
 
The web service returns a Member[]
 
alright, hack away. @drch is your man here.
 
6:32 PM
based on the clients XSD
 
@KendallFrey Is 0 a number? According to old numerical philosophy... It isn't.
 
all my work is contract-first design, so can't stray from that
 
@RyanTernier at this point I think we need to know more about the client
 
Client is any type of system that can send a SOAP message that implements the specific XSD Schema
be it a Mainframe, Java, Oracle system etc.
 
what the user SEES and what the client-side process receives can be quite different. I've never used asmx so I don't intuitively know what that client is getting
ah ok, so it's getting a soap fault?
 
6:34 PM
!!> typeof 0
 
Consult THE STANDARD
 
@KendallFrey "number"
 
@JeroldHaas There you have it
 
@KendallFrey Did Caprica invent 0?
 
public SecretException : Exception {
   private readonly Exception _actual;

   public override StackTrace { get { return string.Empty; } }
   public override Message { get { return _actual.Message; } }

   public SecretException(Exception ex) {  _actual = ex; }
}
hax 2 da max
 
6:34 PM
@KendallFrey Check the history of 0
 
The SOAP Fault element defines the following four subelements:

faultcode
The faultcode element is intended for use by software to provide an algorithmic mechanism for identifying the fault. The faultcode MUST be present in a SOAP Fault element and the faultcode value MUST be a qualified name as defined in [8], section 3. SOAP defines a small set of SOAP fault codes covering basic SOAP faults (see section 4.4.1)
faultstring
The faultstring element is intended to provide a human readable explanation of the fault and is not intended for algorithmic processing. The faultstring element is simil
@RyanTernier the standard doesn't permit exactly what you said you wanted. You could get pretty close, perhaps
 
hrm..
 
you might get away with supplying a faultcode of EPERM and a faultstring of "Invalid permissions"
otherwise the client has every right to barf
 
What i get is:
System.Web.Services.Protocols.SoapException: ERROR
   at HCIM.IdentityHub.Proxy.IdentityHub.HCIM.IdentityHub.Proxy.IIdentityHubSoapBinding.getMember(MemberGetRequest memGetReq) in C:\Apps\HCIM\Work\HCIM_Dev\src\Web\HCIM.IdentityHub.Proxy\IdentityHub.asmx.cs:line 295
When i do:
throw new SoapException ("ERROR", SoapException.ServerFaultCode, "Do I see this");
I'll probably have to build my own soap envelope and return it
 
Hm. That looks like the client interpreting the content of the fault and turning it back into a .net exception
 
6:40 PM
yea... will play with it some more. Thanks for the help. Lunch calls
 
@RyanTernier how are you testing it? just hitting it via the test page or with an actual soap client?
 
yeah, lunch calls me too
gotta fix an upgrade script though
 
Man, I am getting blocked from dumber and dumber Wikipedia articles.
 
like the swimsuits article?
 
6:51 PM
Not even.
Today they decided celebrities were porn.
 
best online radio station for english hits ?
 
@ton.yeung She wasn't on the page.
 
!!google back hair
 
6:54 PM
@ton.yeung Yeah I can google. Just gave it a thought to ask for better opinions
 
All i know is n.Cage as miley for the wrecking ball was awesome
 
lol
 
@RyanTernier according to msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa480514.aspx you won't get the stack trace when customerrors is on or remoteonly
 
so the faultstring should just be the exception message in that case
 
6:57 PM
nice!
yup that did it,
 
any chance you can push back against that requirement and expect the client to be a sane soap client?
 
haha
when someone pays multi million $'s for something, they want what they want.
 
do they even know why they want it?
I've been doing exactly that recently
 
@Tom Not really- no. don't even have use cases for it yet hahahah
 
Our vendor emits custom xml over http post - but not soap
 
6:59 PM
@ton.yeung if its a service with complex objects, its a bitch to code up all your request/response models
 
and the interesting payload content is escaped in CDATA
 
converting someone's json api rest doc into pocos is a pain in the ass
 
they do that so that they can include characters like '&' in the request without their xml processor bitching
it's our job to sort that out
 
yeah it doesn't pick up commonality all that well
 
lol, beat me to it @ton.yeung
 
7:01 PM
I have a hunch that it is provably impossible to reconstruct a sane xml message from a string that has an unescaped, invalid & or a < in it
but I can't prove it
oh, the CDATA'd payload can contain raw unsanitised user input.
human resources
 
ewwwww
 
I'm trying to convince people that this is an attack surface a mile wide and there is no choice but to insist that the vendor fix this properly
so far nobody is listening
 
@ton.yeung that json2csharp would be nice if it converted the names to c# style naming and added JsonProperty attributes where necessary
 
probably all they could do is emit garbage and force our server to go through expensive exception handling repeatedly
but that's still an attack
I don't intend to let it get that far
the guy next to me says he probably agrees with me but he's going to estimate, then implement a fix anyway
I think he knows I intend to try and break it, and I'll succeed
this is all part of the plan
if he implements something that I can break, they'll be convinced it's unfixable
he's a lot better than me
I am dreading someone asking "but who would actually know to do that?"
because the answer has to be "How do you know that I won't?"
for future reference, I am ballsy enough to say that in front of a customer
 
Has anyone used windows runtime component or windows phone runtime component? I am trying to set a proxy using WinINet 'apis' and I was able to get it to work in C# for Windows Store apps. However dllimport is not supported by windows phone 8 so have to look into windows phone runtime components.
 
7:27 PM
I remember looking at that a little yesterday. Doesn't it seem like an unnecessary amount of javascript just to instantiate a menu?
 
yarly
@ton.yeung how do i get that to actually render something
need new url plx
 
@Greg - I realized that I have something similar to what you were wanting to do already implemented.
@Greg - The dynamic menu. So what I do is I have a controller and an action result setup for the menu. This is because the view which constitutes the content of the menu is a real view on its own. So just navigating to that url will return a fully built menu as the page. In addition, it may be loaded as just the content to be inserted into a `div`. To accomplish this I have the controller setup like a normal controller.
public SomeController : Controller
{
 public ActionResult Index(bool partial = false)
@greg - Once the controller and action are setup, which are very basic, inside of the view returned, there is a simple check to see if the fully qualified view should be returned.
if (ViewBag.partial != null && ViewBag.partial == true)
    {
        Layout = null;
    }
Now that the controller, action, and view are setup for being used as a partial and to return your menu, you need to inject them into the place you wish to have them show. This can be done using the Action method.
<div style="display:none;" class="navPopout">
Sorry for the text wall.
 
@TravisJ That is kind of cool, yeah that is very similar or almost identical.
Yeah, I was trying to treat the menu as a view. Which can be dynamically called and altered at runtime.
 
:)
Building features is so much more fun than algorithms. I cannot wait until this algorithm is fully integrated into my business logic layer so I can work on the backlogged features I have.
 
7:44 PM
What is the algorithm for?
 
Production scheduling
 
That seems like a very simple solution without full implementation.
...?
 
The one I just showed?
 
I hate when a task starts "Requirements are pretty clear", and they aren't.
 
Me too
 
7:46 PM
Wait a second. I'm missing something.
I hate the way the requirements section isn't shown.
Kudos to whoever managed to misspell prioriority.
 
@TravisJ Yeah, that doesn't seem like a full implementation. Also, how does the algorithm tie into production?
 
@Greg - The view has a lot in it, I just didn't post it. You can fill in whatever you want.
MyView.cshtml
@model Namespace.IfYouReturnOne
@if{ (ViewBag.partial != null && ViewBag.partial == true) Layout = null; }
@* html and markup goes here *@
<div>Hello dynamic menu for @(Model.User.Name)!</div>
<script>alert("dynamic menu loaded");</script>
 
Yeah, that is a similar approach though. The Controller is filling the View with content to generate the menu; then just dynamically call with Razor.
I do like that approach, any drawback you found?
 
@Greg - The algorithm is kind of complicated, I don't feel like explaining the specifics of how it accomplishes its task. It allows the user to design a directed weighted graph, and then place a set of goals which are week numbers and amounts, and then it backtracks the graph designed to provide every step necessary in the production process to meet each goal.
@Greg - No drawbacks, that code is used right now in a live application.
 
Hm, so really the Controller has the code to implement each level of the menu- Then simply generates the html for that location. Correct?
 
7:54 PM
@Greg - The controller can have multiple actionresult methods for each menu. Or you can have a generic method which will determine which menu to return, or which values to return to fill a generic menu.
 
So the helper writes out the navigation path url I'm assuming?
 
The helper loads the view from the actionresult
 
any asp.netters in here?
 
It is done server side and it is seamless from the clients perspective.
never heard of asp.netter
 
asp.net scripter, at least i think thats what i'm working with
 
7:56 PM
I don't think any of us catch snakes with nets in here, but I may be wrong...
 
frantically searches for an asp in a net
 
lulz
 
@TravisJ So, where did you handle the URL navigation?
 
This was the first result. It was titled "Kicking Asp" and features sammy.
 
would a stack overflow on a website cause the app pool to recycle and trash all the in memory sessions?
 
7:58 PM
Can a script write an application?
 
@Greg - Navigation? You mean to target the controller in order to return the view, or do you mean links in the returned menu view?
 
@TravisJ The links from the menu, to navigate to that page.
 

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