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12:00 AM
see also @Simeon
> The decorator syntax is merely syntactic sugar, the following two function definitions are semantically equivalent:
def f(...):
    ...
f = staticmethod(f)

@staticmethod
def f(...):
    ...
good night
 
12:15 AM
And I've even got X11 forwarding working on my puppy \o/
 
 
1 hour later…
1:16 AM
cbg'
 
 
6 hours later…
7:42 AM
sick cbg
 
 
1 hour later…
8:53 AM
cbg
honestly
what is going on with peoplez
 
9:45 AM
Cabbage!
 
@khajvah 130 dollars?
 
yeah
 
That makes Snapchat have a better monitization strategy than any other social network apart from Facebook, huh?
 
:D
twitter's monetization strategy is to sell the data.
 
9:48 AM
Twitter is failing so bad though
Vine is the best example for that
 
10:00 AM
I would rather have facebook fail
nowadays I don't see anything positive in Facebook
 
10:24 AM
same
 
cbg folks
are there good books out there that can teach someone on the good pratice of testing and deployment, at an exec level?
I know it is not directly related to python but as we are trying to switch the current code we are using to python, I would need some insight from seasoned pro who have lots of experience on software deployment
 
Cabbage
 
\o @PM2Ring
 
I've just been doing weird things with modules. ;) stackoverflow.com/questions/41801865/…
 
10:40 AM
cbg
 
@AndyK holdenweb may have some suggestions, since he's been automating & streamlining the testing & deployment strategy in his current job... Or maybe we can encourage him to write such a book. ;)
 
@PM2Ring that would be nice
 
@AndrasDeak Cute. I hope you have some Vegemite on hand in case dropbear gets out of control. :)
 
i've got headhache, simply by thinking of it
my boss is doing dev work, instead of leading and concentrating on building the team
at the end, we are drifting
-_-
 
@PM2Ring unfortunately vegemite's wikipedia page doesn't mention its applications to a dropbear situation:P
 
10:48 AM
Vegemite is mentioned on the dropbear page of the Australian Museum, however "There are some suggested folk remedies that are said to act as a repellent to Drop Bears, these include having forks in the hair or Vegemite or toothpaste spread behind the ears. There is no evidence to suggest that any such repellents work." But what would they know. ;)
 
aaaah I see:D
there's no evidence to suggest that those repellents don't work
 
Exactly
 
11:11 AM
LEFT JOIN and RIGHT JOIN have terrible names
LEFT and RIGHT are ambiguous
 
why?
 
left and right are unclear
 
That’s like saying “less than” and “greater than” are ambiguous
 
I mean in the query
 
It may be confusing, but that's not the same as ambiguous
 
11:14 AM
the idea is simple
 
FROM x LEFT JOIN y and FROM x RIGHT JOIN y have clear order. Just like x < y and x > y
 
but inside a query, it's hard to understand
 
you dont need to use right join
just use left join all the time
 
that even more makes the names bad
 
i never use right join, when i want right join i just query from other table ;d
 
11:18 AM
simple queries is fine but when doing a few level deep joins
I get confused
 
blame it on the language
 
@AndrasDeak yeah a few level deep JOINS look aweful
 
good morning cabbage
 
hmm, what do you mean by few level joins? each join is just 2 additional lines on the same level (its not like nesting a loop)
 
@marxin that's why it's bad
 
11:32 AM
Just out of curiousity, what class are you taking? We'd like to recommend people avoid the heck out of this class because it's terrible. — Wayne Werner 59 secs ago
That poor, poor OP. It's not a terribly good question, but then again the assignment is literally the worst
Three weeks into (presumably) a beginning programming class and they're supposed to turn this flowchart into code
 
@khajvah Joining a few level deep will always be confusing, regardless of the tool name…
 
could also be missing some context
 
Like... I could do that just fine, but I wouldn't enjoy it. I'd probably use regexes.
 
Morning all.
 
@WayneWerner Hopefully, that crappy flowchart was created by the OP, not the teacher. Note that the total area calculation subtracts the 1st window, but adds the other window & the door. (I'm assuming the door isn't to be painted, otherwise why bother calculating its area?)
 
11:44 AM
you need a different kind of paint for that
 
@PM2Ring I'd be shocked if the OP understands enough to create a flowchart, but not enough to convert a flowchart to code. That doesn't make any sense to me.
Hah. It looks like the flowchart creator just doesn't understand order of operations, or forgot a () around the windows and doors
 
@WayneWerner Maybe. But it's a pretty bad flowchart, and I assume they have a flowchart making program.
 
That could be true. Still, like... aren't they called conditionals in flowchart programs? Or branches? Eh, maybe not now that I look at it because the bottom bits have conditionals sprouting off of them - unless that's a newer flowchart thing shrugs
 
@WayneWerner Lovely. I used to check apod regularly, but I'd forgotten about it. FWIW, a month or so ago I re-read Asimov's The Martian Way about a bunch of Mars colonists going to Saturn's rings to harvest ice. It's rather dated, but still a great story. But re-reading those old Asimov stories reminded me of how much we've learned about the solar system since those stories were written.
 
That seems like it would be a long trip for some ice...
Was Mars supposed to not have any water they could defrost or something?
 
11:53 AM
until a few years ago, yes? :P
 
^^ didn't the saturnian ice rings idea become the principle mechanism behind terraforming mars for a while? They'd take icy asteroids and smash thousands of them into the martian atmosphere - dust/water clouds would heat up the planet and craete an atmosphere.
 
not sure how much good it would do without a magnetosphere
 
@WayneWerner Yeah, conditionals should be diamonds (or maybe other polygons if you have a multi-way condition). They should be clearly distinct from the square / rectangular imperative blocks (and from the parallelograms used for input). It's been a few decades since I last did proper flowcharting, but I think I still have a plastic flowchart template hiding somewhere. :)
 
TIL there's proper flowcharting
I just make boxes with arrows...
sometimes when I'm feeling fancy I'll bust out a ruler
to make straight...slanted lines
 
11:58 AM
oh wow
I want that
 
it doesnt matter what you use as long its described and consistent
imo
 
that seems like something someone's put on kickstarter...made of "aircraft grade" titanium
or carbon fiber
 
Hah, you can actually get the original IBM manual: eah-jena.de/~kleine/history/software/…
 
though there have been some cool reprints lately
 
@WayneWerner They had some frozen groundwater, but the colony was getting large, and they needed more water. The spaceship tech was based on a fusion reactor with water as the reaction mass.
They had been using water they collected on Earth, but an evangelical anti-Mars politician managed to get into power and prevent them from taking Earth's water, despite arguments that the amount of water exported was miniscule in comparison to the amount of water in the oceans. But you know how people are with big numbers. :)
 
cabbage, all, at the start of what looks like being a Very Interesting Week
Weekend wasn't too great - got a scratch on my eyeball. That was a bit ouchy
 
@excaza Who cares? Just keep throwing down more ice to compensate for the losses. :)
Hi @holdenweb That scratched eyeball sounds ouchy. BTW, chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/35248430#35248430
 
Oh man, I used to use those IBM flowcharting stencils!
 
Did you ever work for IBM, or just use the flowchart stencils?
 
I think the last time I made an actual flowchart was when I was building an arbitrary precision binary adder in Conway's Life, using streams of gliders as the bit strings.
 
12:05 PM
I love computers in GoL
they're so ridiculous(ly amazing)
 
@AndyK hey @andyk, not entirely sure what constitutes an exec-level book. My current bible is "Continuous Delivery" by Jez Humble and David Farley (thnx to @PM2Ring for bringing the message to my attention)
 
@WayneWerner Yeah. :) I kinda understand how the prime sequence calculators work (they basically implement a sieve of Eratosthenes), but they still blow me away. My own efforts are much simpler. But I did implement the first Fibonacci & Collatz sequence generators. :)
 
nice. Very nice.
 
Never worked for IBM, but wotked with IBM mainframes for a while. The stencils were ubiquitous
 
I still remember when my brother showed me GoL on... probably DOS
I don't even think it was Windows 1 at that point
Hey, I worked with IBM mainframes for a while, too... fresh out of college in 2011 >.>
zOS - the z stands for Zesty!
 
12:09 PM
I should have my friend cut me some templates
then I can be legit :)
 
If John Conway had $1 for every GOL program that was written he'd be a very rich man.
 
If he had $0.01 for every GoL program that was written he'd be a very rich man
 
I used a pre-existing adder circuit in my Fibonacci & Collatz patterns (I also constructed a general multiplier circuit based on it). But I never fully understood how it worked, and it wasn't documented, which was a bit unsatisfying. So I decided I needed to make my own adder. It's a bit larger than the old adder, and slightly slower, but it's heaps easier to understand how it works.
 
Has anyone ever made GoL in GoL?
 
Sure. Give me a sec...
Check out Life in life by Phillip Bradbury, who happens to be a mod on the xkcd coding forum (and an Australian).
 
12:24 PM
That's wicked cool
 
That video uses the OTCA metapixel
 
@WayneWerner Homework for today: Rebuild that in Minecraft.
 
Just use Minecraft on the Raspberry Pi with the Python interface :D
 
12:44 PM
cbgy afternoon
 
@WayneWerner I was expecting a proper 3d GOL
 
That would also be super cool. I'll have to admit that I was, too.
 
Cabbage
 
you'd probably have to tweak the rules so that you get interesting behaviour, but I'm absolutely sure that GOL has been generalized to n dimension in the xkcd forum alone
cbg BR
 
\o Andras
 
12:47 PM
@AndrasDeak tried to find some 3D GOL but it just looked messy
it is hard to see what's happening
 
Oct 6 '15 at 13:17, by PM 2Ring
A couple of days ago I created a pattern in Conway's Life that continuously generates a stream of spaceships that spell out "sopython ". The RLE file is on pastebin; it's a standard format, so any Life program that can be fed pattern files should load it correctly, but you'll probably need to load from the RAW Paste Data or you'll get extra white space which may confuse some programs.
@AnttiHaapala Yeah, it's hard to see the interior detail. You could use translucent voxels, but that doesn't really help much.
FWIW, my How do I know which version of Debian I'm running? answer on U&L has now passed 60 points. I wouldn't mind having a few more answers like that that keep attracting new points. :)
 
plain awesome @holdenweb
 
@PM2Ring and here I used uname -a just the other day
 
Yeah, that book still repays study
 
@AndrasDeak That just gives me kernel version info, but not distro version.
 
1:02 PM
possible
Antti wouldn't believe me when I was skeptical about that:D
$ uname -a
Linux hostname 4.7.0-1-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 4.7.8-1 (2016-10-19) x86_64 GNU/Linux
$ cat /proc/version
Linux version 4.7.0-1-amd64 (debian-kernel@lists.debian.org) (gcc version 5.4.1 20160904 (Debian 5.4.1-2) ) #1 SMP Debian 4.7.8-1 (2016-10-19)
so what's 4.7.8-1 and what's 5.4.1-2?
way too many numbers for me
I'm only confident about the kernel version
 
@AndrasDeak The 5.4.1-2 looks like the version of gcc
 
ah, so 5.4.1 and 5.4.1-2 in parens is redundant
so Antti was right
 
(gcc version 5.4.1 20160904 (Debian 5.4.1-2) )
^ opening parenthesis
                            ^ another opening parenthesis
                                    ^^^^^^^ Version number that is part of the gcc parentheses
 
yeah that was my eventual take on it, thanks
the fact that the two versions weren't the exact same threw me off a bit
this is the most fun bit:
$ lsb_release -a
No LSB modules are available.
Distributor ID:	Debian
Description:	Debian GNU/Linux testing (stretch)
Release:	testing
Codename:	stretch
thanks, very informative:D
 
the debian 4.7.8-1 perhaps is the patch level of the kernel or sth :D
 
1:14 PM
my debian doesn't like to be categorized into artificial bins such as "version", it works on a more qualitative level
 
So it's really gcc version 5.4.1, and I guess the Debian 5.4.1-2 means that it's a build designed to work properly with Debian, eg so it knows where to find includes & config files.
 
no, -2 means it has debian patches...
like, debian tries hard to fix bugs but not break the interface...
 
Ok. Is that because it's easier for Debian to do that than to get its bugfixes accepted upstream?
 
nooo... the thing is that the bugs are fixed alongside with new features.
they're not backported to stable versions
also, say in Python packages, the debian patches are applied so that the packages install themselves in the dist-packages, and work from there and so forth...
 
1:59 PM
I can never remember if the keyword argument for sort is reverse or reversed. This bothers me.
 
reversed is a keyword built-in on its own
so it "can't" be
that's how I remember it
 
I'll see if I can remember that next time.
 
also "reverse" is something you do while "reversed" is something you want
 
but it could be a "reversed sort"
 
then it would be a reversed(sorted())
 
2:07 PM
or a sorted(make it reversed sort please)
 
Though obviously that one would be totally useless, lol
 
why?
 
or did you mean sorted(reverse=True)?
 
I meant sorted(make it reversed sort please) -> sorted(reversed=True) which is not the correct keyword:P
 
Question for a friend (actual truth): Is it racist to highlight one’s features/abilities that are often accounted (stereotypically) to a certain culture after living in said culture for many years?
– in a job application for what it’s worth
 
2:14 PM
the features, but not the cultural correlation, surely?:D
 
So like... running?
 
so you mean noting that "very good with numbers", but not "very good with numbers since Asian"
 
Like, as a German, being ultra precise about stuff
 
My phone is stupid.

OpenGPS: Download size: 843KB

"Oh noes, you don't have enough space, I need 98MB to install this!"
 
I don't think it's racist as long as it's true; and if you're applying within said culture, it might be a benefit
 
2:15 PM
@poke What is the intended goal of stating it?
That can't be achieved via show over tell? (in light of the potential downside risk)
 
Well, in this case, she’s German but has been living abroad for many years. Now, in the cover letter, she wants to highlight that—being German—she has the typical German “features” but also has all the features from the people where she lived for so long
 
yeah, that sounds weird, but I'm an outsider to these issues
 
The text reads really well, a bit light-hearted possibly loosening up the person who reads it. But she fears that it might be seen as racist.. :/
 
I feel like in situations like those, it's best to go with what best fits your personality / mindset
 
cabbage
 
2:20 PM
something something Germans aren't that sensitive to racism, eh?
 
If you truly don't think it's offensive but they do -- it may not be a good fit to begin with, depending
(for example)
 
@AndrasDeak Official signature of sorted (and, presumably, the list.sortmethod is similar): sorted(iterable, key=None, reverse=False) --> new sorted list
 
yes, I know, thanks:)
we started from Kevin having troubles memorizing the name of the last keyword
 
I want to say "you wouldn't want to work for people that look at the world through such a critical lens anyway" but OTOH it's better to have a job with oversensitive resume-filtering HR drones than it is to live in a van down by the river
 
^pretty much what I was trying to say, but not as clearly
 
2:21 PM
@poke you could also consider yourself to be a stereotypical German, and if you don't find it problematic at all, don't worry about it
 
@MarcusS Yeah, that’s kind of what I am thinking too... but on the other hand, I’m really really bad with cover letters, so reading this, I felt really good because it was finally something that didn’t read like every other stupid thing that’s completely unimaginary and unpersonal…
 
@AndrasDeak When Kevin remember a keyword wrongly, surely he just changes the language specification to make him right?
 
What's inside an empty string? The character where does the line cursor blinks? What is it called?
 
I think if it best reflects the applicant and his/her attitudes and strengths, then it's probably fine
 
@holdenweb I thought that was the definition of KevinScript :D
 
2:22 PM
If someone takes issue with it, maybe look elsewhere for someone who won't get bent out of shape over a minor detail like that
 
@holdenweb maybe it used to be reversed=True, but then he changed it, but now he's forgetting again...
 
@MYGz caret?
 
There isn't anything inside an empty string. In the situation you describe, the cursor is positioned between the opening and closing quotes of an empty string.
 
Unless of course you really are in a van down the river, in which case, you may have to adjust >.>
Safe answer is obviously always going to be "Don't do it / find a less controversial way to say the same thing" etc etc etc
 
Solution: apply to each job twice, once with the risky resume, once with the boring one. Applying as John R Smith and John B smith respectively (or whatever your name is besides middle initial)
Iain M Banks did the same thing when he published scifi / non-scifi and look where it got him.
 
2:25 PM
lol Kevin
@MarcusS Yeah, that seems like the safest advice here.
Thanks all for your input
 
starting to learn Java
 
If it were me reading that CV, I'd look down on any sort of cultural offhand remark like that.
 
I think it depends on how it's phrased
 
I think an A|B test is in order here. Even if you're unwilling to submit two resumes per job, alternating what resume you send should give you a feel for the aggregate sentiment
Unless in this particular job industry the sentiment is "the vast majority of employers don't even look at your resume" in which case all useful empirical data gets drowned out
 
Was curious to see if learning from SO python answers would help me level up, made lancerous.com which is stackoverflow.com/users/100297/martijn-pieters?tab=answers with a bit less friction to consume everyday. Right now only pulling answers from Martijn, will add others if I actually use this thing on a daily basis.
hopefully its useful to someone in here as well. Questions, comments, concerns are welcome
 
2:30 PM
It's hard to distinguish "didn't get a reply because the recipient is disinterested in the flood of applications rushing towards them" and "didn't get a reply because they thought I was racist" and you know they won't give a straight answer if you ask
Although I guess there's still useful data in "got a reply 0.01% of the time with boring resume; got a reply 0.005% of the time with racist resume" if your sample size is big enough to distinguish it from random noise
 
I think there is a difference between saying "Person A is from B and therefore has quality C" and saying "In culture B, qualities such as C are highly regarded -- and it is these qualities that person A has sought to emulate / assimilate / whatever"
 
Simply apply for tens of thousands of jobs per day. So simple.
 
It's still just more noise in a CV though. Maybe stick that sort of thing in a covering letter if you haven't got enough space.
 
@Fuchida Change url to lancero.us for maximum web-2.0-ness.
 
@Kevin :)
lancero.us is available so might as well I guess
 
2:33 PM
If I read that, and even if it was worded in the latter way - I would wonder more about why it was put in, rather than the actual trait.
"Is it because they're trying to buff up their CV, because they feel this one of their weak points?" etc
 
Insert insensitive remarks into your resume to subtly signal that you're on the autism spectrum and thus would be excellent in STEM
 
@Kevin or you should submit a weak resume, careful not to collapse the wave function of the HR department
 
\o cbg
 
@IntrepidBrit I agree, to be honest -- just fun to play devil's advocate sometimes
 
@Fuchida make sure to comply with SO's licensing policies
 
2:38 PM
@AndrasDeak good point, will review the SO API TOS
 
@MarcusS It’s like “I’m good at X like ever other B, but I also bring some quality C-ish features which is Y and Z.”
 
@corvid step 1: pull the ethernet cable from your computer and disconnect from wifi
 
@holdenweb Can't find the answer I read on SO. It was talking about some e0, e1 etc. stored between characters of a string.
 
@poke I think you could probably say the same thing without mentioning B, etc
 
2:48 PM
But then it turns into a random feature list
 
someone passive aggressive downvoted me here: stackoverflow.com/a/30010956/918959 :D
 
good to find a fellow Finn?
 
@AnttiHaapala where is your avatar?
 
isn't that a revenge downvote?
 
my avatar?
 
2:50 PM
@khajvah reload
 
@AndrasDeak likely :D
 
then it's active aggressive:P
 
oh it would be funny to edit the html and make it look like I downvoted it
too late
 
oooh, avatar there
 
Hello everyone.
 
2:53 PM
cbg
 
If I were to pass an object property to a function, the property would be evaluated on the function call, not when the property is references, correct?
 
in The Ministry of Silly Hats, Jan 17 at 16:33, by Andras Deak
19 hours ago, by Andras Deak
@Kyll http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/340025/avatar-displayed-instead-of-profi‌​le-picture -> http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/332880/why-did-my-avatar-change/334006#3‌​34006, http://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/285174/gravatar-profile-image-not-showin‌​g-sometimes
in The Ministry of Silly Hats, Jan 17 at 16:33, by Andras Deak
19 hours ago, by Andras Deak
apparently gravatar is falling apart
one should just upload their avatar to SO directly, have it on imgur
@neet_jn it might be just me, but I don't understand what you exactly mean.
 
class Foo(object):

  @property
  def prop(self):
    return 5

def do_eval(n):
  print 'hi'
  print n+5

foo = Foo()
do_eval(n=foo.prop)
 
@neet_jn it will be evaluated before the function call
 
Alright, cool beans. Thank you!
 
2:55 PM
Try adding print("property evaluated") inside def prop and you'll see for yourself when it executes
 
ay
*ah
 
Or, hmm,
 
@AndrasDeak stop
:D
 
I hate answering in C questions :D
 
Thanks again everyone!
 
2:57 PM
Why are some of us ':D'ing, recently? :D
 
Marijuana is legal
 
@MooingRawr who’s “we all”?
 
@poke excluding you of course
 
> :D
 
Germans don't ":D"
 
2:59 PM
they only :|
 
yeah...
or if they're really happy it is :-]
 

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