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12:00 AM
ESXi on its own is fairly solid as far as I know, but this is ughhh
No working API client
 
@CatPlusPlus Can't go wrong with free.
 
UI in Flash that works baaaad
 
@CatPlusPlus I stopped at "UI in Flash"
:P
 
@Borgleader I've used both. Right now I have VirtualBox on my machine at home and VMWare on my machine at work. For most of what I do, they're similar enough that I rarely notice the difference (except VMWare doesn't get updated nearly as often).
 
VMWare shared folders are supposedly better performance-wise
Which is not hard to do since vboxsf is utter garbage
 
12:03 AM
I take a singleton is a bad idea for a UI dialog.
 
> The maximum number of simultaneous operations has been reached.
Want to stop 13 VMs at the same time hhahahaha nop
 
@JerryCoffin Cool, how does VMWare compare with Virtualbox on the "integration" front (for lack of a better word), like seemlessly capturing your keyboard/mouse depending on if its focused or not that sort of thing.
 
@CatPlusPlus Hmm...I probably wouldn't notice. I rarely pass much other than code between them, and it's usually small enough even horrible performance still wouldn't be very noticeable.
 
@Jaden Many will tell you Singletons are a bad idea period.
 
@JerryCoffin I notice it a lot because development-mode servers do a lot of stat() to see if things changed and need to be reloaded
 
12:04 AM
@Borgleader Pretty much the same. Both require you to install some "extensions" in the client OS to integrate well. Without that, they both suck. With it, they're both all right.
 
git status takes like half a minute
 
Ell
huh
emerge --ask xorg-server wants to emerge ghc also :V
 
I just want to enforce only a single modeless dialog when I've made it so easy to hit that button.
 
Using networked filesystem is more than twice as fast as vboxsf
 
@CatPlusPlus This is when the repo is on the host OS, and reading it from the guest OS, or vice versa (or both?)
 
12:06 AM
Which is incredibly funny to me
@JerryCoffin Host folder mounted via vboxsf on the guest
It doesn't work the other way around
 
@CatPlusPlus Okay--I've never tried it the other way around, so I wasn't sure if it'd work or not.
 
If you want to mount guest folders on the host then CIFS/NFS is the only way
And it's much better anyway
 
"I don't know if you can define a class in a namespace."
WHY AM I TAKING THIS CLASS.
 
@ThePhD RIP
 
@ThePhD For the credits. Paper is worth it. Really.
 
12:10 AM
Ugh...
The good news is, since it's a 'short class", final exam is next week.
Then just one more homework assignment.
And then I NEVER HAVE TO LOOK AT THE CLASS EVER AGAIN.
 
@ThePhD Yay!
 
Now for tedious manual settings change on 30 VMs
 
Seriously, why is my algorithm to sort 10 values generally slower than the one to sort 11 values? ...
 
Cache line sizes?
 
Don't know.
 
12:13 AM
@ThePhD At least they're talking about them. Guess what they never taught me!
 
@Morwenn Summon the spirit of chandler and profile! :)
 
@Lalaland hello
 
user406009
@jaggedSpire Hi.
 
@Borgleader I don't want to profile arrows of code :(
 
Can't have 0 messages in chat today. Here we go.
 
12:19 AM
@ThePhD Hey I know this.
 
@ThePhD I'm sorry :(
 
night guys
and ladies
 
Night.
 
night
 
Forgot koalas.
Ok someone outside my apartment door (neighbor?) is screwing around with his lock.
This is disturbing my peace.
It seems as if he/she has stopped.
 
12:27 AM
@jaggedSpire That's unfortunate. But you turned out great anyhow!
@Jaden Night.
 
I cannot wait until summer.
 
@ThePhD <3
 
This gives me hope that I can survive.
 
I usually build a computer every summer :)
Very fun.
 
... As sooon as Demuxers and all that shit are done tearing me a new one.
 
12:28 AM
@Nooble next time you should tell them about drop bears through your apartment door.
 
@jaggedSpire That'll scare 'em away.
 
@ThePhD :)
 
Scaring is caring.
 
@Nooble exactly
 
Me & your mum is caring
 
12:32 AM
@jaggedSpire Perhaps a few of the same things missing from the most recent programming class I took? (which was using Fortran, for the record).
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Your mother and I don't care about you.
 
Xeo
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
 
For the awesome.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ It's all right. My father doesn't care about me either.
 
12:35 AM
@JerryCoffin I wouldn't pretend to know
 
hahahahaha and of course now database server panics
 
Xeo
Things work then they don't then they work again without explanation I have no idea what's going on. Fuck.
 
I'm sorry. I'm so sorry.
 
@Xeo Story of my system
 
@jaggedSpire Let's see. No mention of namespaces. Barely a mention of the possibility that flow control could be done without a goto statement. No mention of this new-fangled notion of loops that would execute until a condition became true (or false) instead of for a fixed number of iterations.
 
Xeo
12:38 AM
Not that it actually works. It's just one part that randomly decided to work and then not and then again.
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
 
Oh, I almost forgot: recursion prohibited, no possibility of dynamic allocation.
@Xeo -1. Not enough jQuery.
 
@JerryCoffin A moment of silence, then, for the suffering you faced.
 
@jaggedSpire Not at all. I had a blast.
 
Xeo
and then my nose is going crazy and I'm sneezing all fucking day long
fuck this week
 
@JerryCoffin A moment of silence, then, for your memories of the fun times?
:S
 
Xeo
12:40 AM
I just wanna go to sleep and wake up on Saturday
 
@jaggedSpire I still have a blast.
 
I think I'm just gonna go to sleep.
 
@JerryCoffin Well, yay!
I can't really hold a moment of silence for continuing fun. It's just not cricket.
@Morwenn night!
 
@jaggedSpire Thanks :)
I feel like I'm always leaving around the times you're there :p
 
Niiight.
 
12:43 AM
@Morwenn Sleep is good. Sleep is god. God is sleep.
 
@Morwenn like trains in the night
 
I don't believe in sleep.
@ThePhD Thanks ^^
 
Sleep is delicious and moist. Like cake.
 
Mmm, delicious moist cookies.
 
@jaggedSpire What .______.
 
12:44 AM
Hmmm.
Cake.
 
Am I already dreaming?
 
@ThePhD Cookies? Not on my browser!
 
good morning
 
@Morwenn that feeling your mouth gets when you eat a slice of cake so fresh it's still warm? And it's soft? Isn't that a bit like the feeling your head gets when you crawl in bed and go to sleep? Not as...wet certainly because your head is a bit less damp than your mouth (excepting your digestive system and eyes)
 
@Morwenn You are part of the universe's dream of chaos and order.
 
12:46 AM
@Morwenn Well, the rabbits certainly think so
@GregorMcGregor the way it gives slightly as you chew before it crumbles into a delicate sweetness?
 
@JohanLarsson What do you mean
 
Ok, it's really time to go to sleep .___________.
 
@Morwenn that face is so poker it's like a frog
 
Thanks everyone, and have fun, whatever it is you're doing :D
 
@Morwenn :D
 
12:49 AM
@Morwenn noz vat
 
"Member function already defined or declared"
Literally, no member functions on the class.
Thanks, VC++.
 
@ThePhD well at least you know it's not a move constructor if it's not 2015!
since <2015 doesn't generate them
I should make a mug cake later
mug cakes are the solution to many problems, such as not having a mug cake
and in this case, also the solution to having too much kahlua. :3
 
kakalua
 
1:04 AM
hey all
 
Hiyo.
 
Are any RO's available? @JerryCoffin ?
 
@Xeo @JerryCoffin
 
What's up?
 
1:07 AM
... Uh.... Oh, and Mysticial
Is always awake. Forever.
 
Xeo
?
 
@Xeo See above message about needing an RO.
 
@Xeo @Mysticial got a few mins to have a quick chat?
 
ya
 
Xeo
depends on how active I have to be in that chat. :P
just listening is fine
 
1:10 AM
inb4 room freeze
> Overnight male guests are not allowed due to my roommate's work contract (she works at a church)
lol
that's racist
 
sexist?
Or... ignorant?
 
Just dumb
 
What kind of contract says you can't have male guests in your private home
WARNING DO NOT APPROACH ANYTHING THAT REMOTELY RESEMBLES TO A DICK
 
It's church don't expect logic
 
Well you see my work contract says that overnight christian guests are not allowed
@ThePhD btw lesbians don't exist
 
1:24 AM
Clearly.
 
1:34 AM
> 5 French djihadists, involved in a bombing that resulted in 43 casualties, threatened to lose French nationality, think it is a "disproportionate" and "excessive" decision
I don't even
 
Xeo
@Mysticial still there?
 
yeah
 
1 message moved to bin
 
1:52 AM
people keep telling me about Haskell and I keep explaining over and over again that I DO NOT use so-called "NoSQL" databases
 
Hasql
@garybernhardt are u thick? Haskell is a typeface. There was a movie about it and everything.
 
@Xeo Picking anything up this season?
 
2:09 AM
Why are cppcon vids taking so long to be uploaded? :(
 
didn't they say a month after the first five?
And isn't that what's happening?
 
aw. alright.
 
Haha I changed the adapter from VMXNET3 to E1000 and now setting up SSH keys is taking forever
 
ugg, I've been working for 12 hours straight and I can't focus. How do I keep going?
 
Don't. Just drop.
 
2:23 AM
Though that might be because DNS is down
I sure hope so
 
We need to get rid of sleep, or figure out how to sleep with half our brains - like most animals.
 
@Mikhail Work for 12 hours LGBT
UNFUNNY OVERUSED JOKE ALERT
a crontab job failed and there's nothing in the logs why
 
Your logging is bad
 
There's a >> crontab.log 2>&1
 
Does the process output anything
 
2:30 AM
It's a cp so I guess it should output errors yes
 
can you confirm the program actually ran?
if you used a wrong path(maybe it needs to be absolute), cron will fail silently
 
Fail silently... that almost assuredly sounds like behavior that shouldn't be there.
 
Cron is old and not very good
 
2:46 AM
C++ needs static virtual or at-least decouple the interface mechanism from the virtual dispatch mechanism.
 
Uh...
.... What?
You mean, overridable free functions?
 
or functions that take advantage of commonalities between types to preform a similar action for many different types?
that will compile for any type that meets its requirements?
 
The problem with overridable free functions is it's absolutely impossible to define who gets priority in those cases.
 
He means having an external vtable
 
@Mikhail WHAT DO YOU MEEEAN
 
2:51 AM
"that will compile for any type that meets its requirements?"
sounds like you started defining concepts there
 
I want to guarantee that all inherited classes have a certain function.
 
@TrevorHickey sounds like I was talking about templated functions
 
@Mikhail Just make it pure and all derived classes will have to have it.
 
I need them to be different for each derived class. What I want is a guarantee, in the same way virtual foo() = 0 is a guarantee.
 
A guarantee that they do different things...?
 
2:53 AM
wait what do you need to be different?
 
@Mikhail you may need to turn to static analysis then-- not really a language feature
 
@TrevorHickey well static typing is a language feature :-)
 
Ooh
So you need different functions
 
different bodies same name
 
same signature?
 
2:55 AM
static_assert( has_what_i_am_looking_for<T>::value, "Barf" );
 
Or stop moaning about virtual calls because they don't matter
Concepts are protocols without virtual calls and they'll also never be finished
 
I want Andy's virtual concepts.
Those would be the shit.
 
I want concepts across translational units
 
transnational yes
 
C++ has more forgiving spellcheck
unlike fucking JS
 
3:01 AM
JS, the language where you have unit tests for variable name spelling
 
Or you have WebStorm do it for you.
We should make a WebShitStorm for the name
Then I could run Dart on the Feltch VM
 
wut
 
Forgive me, I think I'm missing something obvious, but how would a static assertion with a type trait or five not work across translation units here?
 
vOv
Hey, let's spend all night writing about how great Bach is!
 
@ThePhD how about sleep instead?
 
3:07 AM
@jaggedSpire What are you, normal?
 
@ThePhD considering you just made me break out in hives, no. Thanks, BTW.
for the hives.
 
No problem.
You can house bees with them. And everyone loves bees.
 
@ThePhD except Batman.
I like to pretend sometimes that he's just stunned he didn't think of it first.
and then I remember Amazons Attack ~never happened.~
 
TIL ellipsis matches args by-value
 
3:13 AM
Sounds kinky.
 
@ThePhD I actually escaped only with knowledge of Batman's apparent fear of bees. It was apparently a mess, with a disjointed, badly written story badly coordinated across the different series that participated in the event.
 
So I need to template<typename... Args> void swallow(Args const&...) {} instead of just void swallow(...) {}
 
@GregorMcGregor you want forwarding references, I'll bet.
 
No I just want to swallow the arguments
 
awh
 
3:16 AM
va_args has to take by value, no?
 
@ThePhD I recall so, yes.
presumably because it would be a mess to figure out what was a by-reference and what was a by-value from the arguments
 
So at work today, there was a conversation about singletons. And somehow that led to someone bringing up the topic of doubletons.... um
 
Is that when you copy and paste the same code :-)
 
3:19 AM
so...did they want to implement it with two functions or what?
 
when global state is not enough
 
A "doubleton" is an object that has two instances. Each of those instances is the only instance of the class.
 
like a factory that can only produce two; no more.
 
If forced to make one, I'd just put an extra static function with a static instance in the class and then choke myself with the power cable.
 
Why not have your singleton return different instances? Kinda like a circular buffer?
 
3:23 AM
but oh hey! you could make do with a templated function on a boolean value, or if you wanted more you could just define an enum and use that for the template argument, before the old gods ate your brain while you were still screaming. :D
 
Why do I even have UseDNS enabled
Stupid waste of time
 
You should use jQuery. It's really great and does all things.
 
@GregorMcGregor varargs is entirely C
 
std::vector<arguments>
 
3:28 AM
you could even give the `enum` identifiable, easily memorable labels, like so:
`enum class DebugHell { I_HATE_MAINTAINERS, WHY_WOULD_I_DEBUG, I_QUIT_HAHAHA, HAVE_FUN_SUCKER };`
 
won't compile on MSVC2008
 
@Mikhail ?
 
the class keyword
 
@Mikhail Who cares about MSVC 2008
 
50% of people writing WHY_WOULD_I_DEBUG, I_QUIT_HAHAHA, HAVE_FUN_SUCKER are using MSVC2008
 
@GregorMcGregor people that are forced to use it
 
2013 is the bare minimum to do something that vaguely resembles a silhouette of C++
 
VS2015 is free. So there's no excuses for using older versions.
 
3:32 AM
@Mysticial The MSVC2015 installer crashes
 
Isn't that only for smaller shops?
 
@Mikhail ahahaha
 
@Mikhail I mean, I'm pretty sure having to use MSVC2008 would make me quit for peace of mind reasons, but I'm still going to try to avoid fuckletons.
 
@jaggedSpire Noobletons.
 
@Nooble Good evening. Homework all done?
 
3:37 AM
@jaggedSpire 11:37 for me.
 
Or does it persist in its annoying ways?
 
Nope not yet.
 
@Borgleader @ThePhD Texture data aimed for GPU consumption is swizzled for efficient access. The swizzling is non-standard (there is a motion to get it standardized) and depends on a particular IHV. Therefore, the driver would need to implicitly unswizzle it, copy it into system memory and give you access through the API. Which is performance suicide. You can do it explicitly, but it is clear to you what a mess you're doing so most people just don't do it. :D
 
@jaggedSpire It will always.
Annotations suck.
Homework sucks.
Everything that requires me to put in effort sucks.
 
@Nooble Well, I only ever had to take notes and answer questions while growing increasingly incoherent from the late hour
so I have no feelings on annotations. :3
 
3:40 AM
DirectX 12 exposes the standard swizzle option, but it lacks implementation on the driver side as hardware right now is free to do as it pleases across the PCIe border and only respond to a coarse, high level API interface. So, I'd say a few more years still before that is a thing. There's also quite a bit of other low level stuff which is HW implementation specific, from my experimentation with low level Intel graphics driver writing, not just swizzling.
 
@jaggedSpire I'm surprisingly alert currently.
 
@Nooble yay!
 
"API interface", well... Fuck me...
 
Provided to you by the department of redundancy department
 
@ElimGarak it's okay, we all ATM machine occasionally
 
3:45 AM
@GregorMcGregor Redundant department of redundancy department.
 
Nvidia is the worst offender in weird proprietary low level choices that no one can really justify, that's part of the reason why they are hiding all their shit. Intel, weirdly, is the most progressive of the bunch given its short experience with it. Eventually, I kinda expect Intel to surpass both.
 
like what?
 
Getting onboard with standard swizzling, for example. Deciding to shoehorn features which their hardware cannot natively run etc. Then publicly deny. Then get proven wrong. And the cycle repeats. But they fuck up on other levels too... All I have to say on that is GameWorks. (except when the game doesn't work :P )
 
Is swizzling purely software?
 
Swizzling as in data-shuffling?
 
3:54 AM
No, it's intensely hardware, that's part of the standardization issue. Nvidia is really difficult because they are set in their ways and are unwilling to share. And to standardize something, you need to get the IHVs to play nice.
 
@Mysticial Z-order curves etc
 
Stuff like bit-reversals and shit?
 
Swizzling texture data for more efficient access on the GPU, so that the cache is used better. Because there's a long way between 4 pixels in linear memory if your texture is really fat.
 
When I hear "swizzle", I think of the vector permute instructions for Intel's SIMD.
 
3:57 AM
Ah, I am dealing with those right now (NEON ARM), inverting a 4x4 matrix.
 
isn't there a known solution for a 4x4 matrix?
 
Full transposes like a 4x4 is something I've had to do in the recursion end-points for an FFT.
As well as SOA <-> AOS conversions.
 
Yeah, it's really trivial really if you're good at LA, but it is tedious. Seriously tedious. Especially when the fucking compiler fucks up the intrinsics and generates absolute horrendous shit.
 
The SOA <-> AOS conversions I need to do actually go beyond the simple power-of-two stuff.
It gets really complicated fast.
 
List(List((-(h*k*n) + g*l*n + h*j*o - f*l*o - g*j*p + f*k*p)/
(d*g*j*m - c*h*j*m - d*f*k*m + b*h*k*m + c*f*l*m - b*g*l*m - d*g*i*n + c*h*i*n + d*e*k*n -
a*h*k*n - c*e*l*n + a*g*l*n + d*f*i*o - b*h*i*o - d*e*j*o + a*h*j*o + b*e*l*o - a*f*l*o -
c*f*i*p + b*g*i*p + c*e*j*p - a*g*j*p - b*e*k*p + a*f*k*p),
(d*k*n - c*l*n - d*j*o + b*l*o + c*j*p - b*k*p)/
(d*g*j*m - c*h*j*m - d*f*k*m + b*h*k*m + c*f*l*m - b*g*l*m - d*g*i*n + c*h*i*n + d*e*k*n -
a*h*k*n - c*e*l*n + a*g*l*n + d*f*i*o - b*h*i*o - d*e*j*o + a*h*j*o + b*e*l*o - a*f*l*o -
 
4:00 AM
nice
 
So, you can actually write the inverse of a 4x4 matrix
Mat = {{a, b, c, d}, {e, f, g, h}, {i, j, k, l}, {m, n, o, p}}
Inverse[Mat] // CForm
 
There are also rotations pertaining to high band SH approximations which can get your square matrices into two digit range. But luckily, they're sparse.
 
x86 processors tend to only have 1 execution unit for data shuffling. So you need to be able to overlap shuffling with computation to get full throughput. Not fun.
 
 
@jaggedSpire Today for me is tomorrow for you!
I am a time traveler!
 
4:02 AM
@Nooble spooky
 
The last of the time-koalords.
 
Yeah, you really have to watch what you are doing and have a deep understanding of the hardware you're writing that stuff for. Fortunately, ARM is reasonably good at documenting stuff.
 
@Nooble facepalm
 
@jaggedSpire hehe
 
@ElimGarak This thing is one of the articles that tipped me off on how to do efficient"unusual sized" tranpositions: software.intel.com/en-us/articles/…
Of course it doesn't solve the problem of overlapping with computation.
 
4:11 AM
It is always great getting such info, although sometimes I'd appreciate having it up front. Some details that I incorporated into my math libraries didn't come from direct documentation, just random playing years before. Which makes me wonder whether there is stuff I am missing today (probably am) because I've yet to discover it.
 
Yeah. Obviously that article didn't tell me how to do a 15x4 transpose using AVX2. But the ideas that it uses opens up an extra dimension of things to explore.
AVX512 changes the whole game.
 
Can't wait to play with that. Although, I've been buying too many processors these past few years.
 
The full 2-vector permutes that it has makes these sort of things almost trivial. But coming from a VLSI background, such "full permutes" require a quadratic amount of silicon to implement. So I have reasons to believe that they might not be a silver bullet.
IOW, AVX512 may have fancy instructions. But they're not all gonna be fast.
Based on the things that Intel has already revealed, I'm almost positive that the AVX512 gather/scatter is not going to be efficient. (better than serial, but far from single-cycle throughput)
And stuff like vpmullq (the 64-bit vector multiply) is not going be fast at all because the multiplier is only 52-bits wide.
 
Best way is just to get into the middle of it. I am willing to compromise as long as there is some benefit involved that makes it worth the effort. Writing that stuff and planning it is really really tedious.
 
There was an article about AVX512 intrinsics somewhere from Intel that specifically said to use in-register permutes to do SOA <-> AOS conversions rather than gather-scatter even though it requires a lot more instructions. O(n*log(n))) vs. O(n)
That says a lot.
But I'm not at all surprised.
I have no idea how to even attempt to design and layout an efficient gather-scatter in silicon.
 
4:25 AM
It's not going to be ideal, that's for sure. But I am still hella excited for __m512. :D
 
I'm still waiting for Agner Fog to post Skylake numbers.
I already have latency + throughput numbers for most instructions for Skylake from a different source. But they don't look entirely reliable.
And they don't have the AVX2 gather instructions.
What they did for Skylake is that they drastically simplified the design of the vector unit. The multiplier is only 52-bit wide and all (common) floating-point uops are 4 cycles flat. The x87 FPU with it's wider unit has been pulled off separately. (i.e. dedicated hardware for it)
Now that the vector unit has been dumbed down, you can widen it. And somewhere in there is a nice and fat all-to-all shuffle execution unit.
 
>>all-to-all shuffle execution unit.
Do you think this doubles as a heat sink?
 
lol
 
Whatever they can do for shuffles, I'll take. If they could make it more forgiving, it would go a big way to simplifying the thought process behind... Everything really. My brain always wants to shuffle everything into place first, then do my work neatly.
 
All-to-all permutes require O(N^2 log(N)) silicon for full throughput. Since it requires N muxes of size N log(N) each.
AVX512DQ in Skylake will have that in 16-bit granularity. So that's N = 64 for the 2-vector permute.
That's nuts.
AVX512VBMI in Cannonlake (10nm) will have it in 8-bit granularity.
Crazy shit. They have a lot of real-estate.
I suspect that the compress/extract instructions are done using a lookup-table to a permute vector that feeds into the all-to-all permute unit.
 
4:34 AM
@Mysticial I got that as a interview question at nvidia
 
aha
Did you pass?
 
Yeah, I passed. But I'm in graduate school for optics...
 
ah
 
@Mikhail Neat.
 
Actually it was among the worst decisions of my life :-/
 
4:37 AM
Nvidia is not all it is cranked up to be. If I wanted to work on GPU tech, I'd probably go after Intel. I've even considered developing a personal hobby, working on a really tiny GPU. But it would eat too much of my time for nothing really.
 
Well, they won't let you design anything because of the vast hierarchy.
They literally wanted me to convert hand drawn diagrams into C code for a simulator, before they make the SystemVerilog.
 
I won't be surprised if in the future, x86 SIMD becomes as wide as GPUs and that the iGPU might end up sharing the same execution units.
 
Well the real problem was the thermal capacity? Intel did a great job with promoting OpenCL (see OpenCV umats)
 
Convergence would be fun. Joining CPUs and GPUs and sharing memory is the way of the future. APUs are doing rough versions of that on consoles. I hope I won't be dealing with discrete memory for many years still, I need zero copy in my life. To be fair, only the PS4 does zero copy, Xbox One partitions memory for the GPU.
 
Is there a C++ class that calls a lambda/function on destruction?
 
4:47 AM
I'm trying to load a texture in opengl
but I get some weird striping and splicing issue
anyone recognize this as a common issue?
 
Have you tried PHP?
 
@Mysticial I only write in brainfuck
 
more like brainfuckyou
 

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